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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: Extinction/Reinforcement Schedule  (Read 351 times)
Wicker Man
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Attempting to reconcile after my affair.
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« on: March 29, 2019, 10:34:56 AM »

It has taken a year for me to get my feet back under me.  This has been the first relationship which I had not been able to 'put away'.  In the past when my relationships failed there was sadness, of course, but it seemed like part of life and recovery was straight forward.  After my relationship with my partner whom I believe likely suffers from BPD I felt poleaxed.

"It turned inside out and exploded"
                                   -Galaxy Quest

I have spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out why my being able to process this experience has been so d@mn difficult.  From the beginning of the end I suspected her hot and cold push pull behavior created essentially a Variable-Ratio Reinforcement (VR) reward schedule.  I always did my human best to be a good partner and sometimes I was 'rewarded' with warmth and sometimes I was not -reward was not fixed or consistent.  (Ok.. in hindsight and hundreds of hours reading about BPD there was a trend, but in the fray it felt quite random).  So like any good pigeon in a Skinner box I tried harder.

VR schedule takes much longer to extinguish than behaviour maintained on an FR (Fixed Ratio) schedule. A slot machine is a perfect place to find behaviour maintained by VR reinforcement. *

I am a living breathing testament to the notion of 'Takes much longer to extinguish'.  Extinguishing my attachment became more complicated and compounded by my rumination on the relationship being self rewarding. As I tried to figure out what in the 'wide wide world of sports' happened to us I was maintaining a 'connection' to her and the relationship.  Rumination was bitter sweet and the 'sweet' was enough to keep the cycle of rumination going.

A convenient characteristic of people is that they find reinforcement in the performance of many activities. Thus, it is often not necessary to provide external reinforcers. External reinforcement may be important to get a behavior started, but we hope more natural reinforcers will take over after a person gains a basic competence.*

I had certainly learned the behavior being deeply attracted to a profoundly dysfunctional relationship.  Unlearning the attraction has been a process.  Personally this process continues, although the pain and confusion is a whisper instead of the tempest it was a year ago.

What brought on this post was a thought which occurred to me this morning.  Could part of the pain in recovering from these sort of dysfunctional relationships be an extreme symptom of the VR schedule which was our relationship? 

When she was mad at me she would withhold love.  This would manifest itself, in the worst of circumstances, by her ghosting me.  So I wonder if on some level instead of accepting the relationship is over and she is truly out of my life that this is merely a protracted lull and at some point in the future the relationship will begin again -as, I had learned through conditioning, it had in the past? 

I will be taking this notion to my next therapy session.  I have been trying to find anything written about how to extinguish behaviors trained through VR.  I have not found anything very helpful yet.  Mostly I have read behaviors will slowly cease once the reward is removed.


Wicker Man


*Quoted from course notes from an Operant Conditioning class
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itsmeSnap
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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2019, 05:57:34 PM »

Excerpt
So I wonder if on some level instead of accepting the relationship is over and she is truly out of my life that this is merely a protracted lull and at some point in the future the relationship will begin again -as, I had learned through conditioning, it had in the past? 
Interestingly enough I am thinking both things right now re my ex. We've been separated for months on occasion (longest been six months, still a month to go) and even though I've decided to "move on" and I'm not waiting on her, I still have that expectation that she "could" come back around.

Speaking of random schedules, like gambling, relationships can also go beyond them and become outright addictive. I recently read something on this here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=72858

Excerpt
An addictive relationship is a single overwhelming involvement that cuts a person off from life. It is an addiction in the same sense as drug dependence, identified by ever-increasing craving and ultimate withdrawal syndrome, with the same dynamics of passivity, low self-esteem, magical thinking, helplessness, and lack of initiative or self-confidence.

One thing that's good about you being able to identify this pattern in you is that you can  maybe use it to your advantage.

I am not trained in any sort of way so this is just my personal opinion, but thinking about my own "unhealthy patterns" has led me to the conclusion that maybe we can just "hijack" them for good.

Like, if you know a variable reinforcement works to keep you engaged in something, just substitute the behavior for something good for you and keep the reinforcement schedule?

So lets say you want to change the type of person you get into a relationship with. you may or may not feel that INTERNAL high like with a BPD for example, but you can take an EXTERNAL reward (think bungee jumping for that adrenaline rush, not just a nice dinner ), not every time, but sometimes, coin toss if you will to keep it "random".

You will eventually, definitely (from what you describe in your own experience) derive internal motivation to keep engaging with the "healthy partner".

Makes sense?

Speaking of schedules, extinctions afaik are usually "negative based" (withholding reward, exacting actual pain/discomfort); do you think maybe you're trying to "extinguish" the relationship by "punishing yourself" with the rumination?

What schedule is generally more effective at eliciting change: reinforcement of the new or extinction of the old?
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Wicker Man
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Relationship status: Attempting to reconcile after my affair.
Posts: 507


« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2019, 10:13:32 AM »

Fortunately I do not have any (other) compulsive addictions.  I am a terrible gambler.  If I won $1000 I would be a little happy -if I lost $100 I would be furious at the waste of money. 

Ok... Funny story.  I had to go to Las Vegas for a work thing.  I gave myself an allowance of what I could lose and I did so quickly.  I was talking to the Pit Boss and I took his picture.  One of the other patrons said 'You cannot ever take a picture in the pit!'  I corrected them and said 'If you are losing in Las Vegas you can do whatever you like'.  The pit boss laughed and agreed -he and I ended up sharing a picture with him wearing my knit cap...  Our investor had just blown a $10,000 marker (Vegas loan) in 15 minutes...  So in my opinion we had cart blanch...  In fact, he went on to lose so much money I got to stay in a suite... such madness...

Anyway back to our regularly scheduled post... I have always lived in a world of VR.  I am a freelance film worker and every job is a chance to possibly get more and better work.  This business is seductive and can be all consuming.  It is also incredibly destructive to relationships.  At one point 4 people on my crew had come home from movies to an empty home.  I had avoided this destruction for quite a long while. 

I believe now part of my attraction to my ex was based in work.  It was our tableaux and it seemed a relationship with her would have meant more work -my root level addiction. 

My rumination about the relationship was not self mortification.  I was trying to find a pattern, some sort of logic in what I had experienced.  It took me a good bit of time to realize and accept my ex's actions did not fit a pattern of what one might call logic.  She sees the world through a very different lens than I -this seems to be fact and has to be accepted as such.  It took me about a year to be at peace with the notion.

I am a most attracted to activities which demand all of my attention -require me to be absolutely present in that moment.  My work is one of these things when I work there is no room to think about anything else -the rest of the world washes away and I am lost in the most wonderful way. 

When my mom died it was incredibly sad -but at work the sadness was gone until they called wrap for the day, then the sadness would come washing back in.

For fun I have been involved in fighting, mountain biking, metal casting, glass work, wood work, shooting -even running I would lose myself.  Most of these things demand all of me in the moment to avoid mayhem.  I guess in a way I am attracted to black and white situations. 

Not that I live in a perpetual manic state -I end up watching 5 movies a week and reading lots to stay current for my work.  However I do enjoy escapism.

From my understanding of operant conditioning removing the reward is the best way to extinguish a behavior.  I am not a fan of negative reward (punishment).  Although... maybe if I had shocked myself every time I thought about the relationship...  On second thought... that is a terrible idea.  Time was a better alternative for putting the relationship to rest.

Wicker Man
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itsmeSnap
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2019, 05:53:41 PM »

Excerpt
I am a most attracted to activities which demand all of my attention -require me to be absolutely present in that moment.  My work is one of these things when I work there is no room to think about anything else -the rest of the world washes away and I am lost in the most wonderful way.
Really interesting how you describe the feeling. My BPD ex had a similar view of her work with horses, there seems to be something deeply soothing about giving something your full undivided attention.

I read about something called "flow", and it seems like that's the thing you're describing

https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-flow-2794768
Excerpt
According to positive psychologist Mihály Csíkszentmihályi, what you are experiencing in that moment is known as flow, a state of complete immersion in an activity. He describes the mental state of flow as "being completely involved in an activity for its own sake. The ego falls away. Time flies.

Excerpt
It took me a good bit of time to realize and accept my ex's actions did not fit a pattern of what one might call logic.
This is something I have been learning myself in being here on the boards, but I'm reaching a different conclusion: There is a logic, but we don't have all the steps visible to us. I'm finding there is a logic, its just hidden under the surface, rushing past very fast and hitting us "out of nowhere" because we missed a critical piece of information.

Like a gazelle going to the water, you get trapped by the crocodile. Was it sudden? you bet, but if you scope out the pond, you see the croc coming out for air, you can tell he hasn't had a meal in days, a few others have ended up in its jaws before you went drinking, there were signs.

Now, if you understand the croc within the pond its easier to see it coming, you can even tell others "hey look, the croc is active when its hot out, take your drink in the early morning to catch it cold while we set up the fence so you can have better access to the good stuff.

Makes sense? That's how I'm seeing it anyway.

Excerpt
Although... maybe if I had shocked myself every time I thought about the relationship...
Let me tell you, I suffered enough breakups with my ex to know being in pain over it is not "productive" enough to forget. I think lots of people would agree with me on that one. There's just something about it, no pain is ever enough to overcome the overwhelming feelings of attraction, like trying to empty a river with a bucket.

Excerpt
On second thought... that is a terrible idea
Definitely   
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Wicker Man
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Relationship status: Attempting to reconcile after my affair.
Posts: 507


« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2019, 11:41:07 AM »


I read about something called "flow", and it seems like that's the thing you're describing
I agree.  In this state I can forget to eat.  At work I am always surprised when it is meal time -I am so immersed I forget about it...  This is strange, since I always know how much time we have left in the day.  In my work I live and die by minutes.  If we get off schedule either the creative or the budget suffer.

Excerpt
...I'm reaching a different conclusion: There is a logic, but we don't have all the steps visible to us. I'm finding there is a logic, its just hidden under the surface, rushing past very fast and hitting us "out of nowhere" because we missed a critical piece of information.

I will continue thinking about your point of view on this.  Presuming my ex does suffer from BPD then I can find a causality for her actions when I look at it through the lens of what I have learned about the personality disorder --but I see no logic.  There was a pattern, but it defied logic.

Even if I can explain her actions I do not believe it implies a logical frame work.  Her wanton destruction seemed to be rooted in a lack of impulse control and in being so I could never guess what or when the next destructive behavior might be.  Was it to be a drunken dinner with a know #metoo producer?  A ghosting, a night spent with a 'new friend'.  I was simply too naive separate words from actions -I projected kindness and stability on to her and gave far too much benefit of the doubt.

All of her friends and family were constantly telling her she seemed happier than ever during our relationship and were relieved she had found a good man to love her.  Her grandparents just wanted her to be safe once they passed and they thought I fit the bill.

In hindsight, things in our relationship were likely far worse than I knew.  She would spend all waking hours on her phone and was likely still emotionally involved with several other men.  We had access to each other's phones for practical reasons (not a trust issue) -but I was perhaps the perfect partner for her... I don't read Chinese.  Even during the day to day she was sapping the foundation of our relationship.  She seemed compelled to self destructive behavior -terrible coping mechanisms.

Excerpt
no pain is ever enough to overcome the overwhelming feelings of attraction
Ok... Yes I completely understand the notion of attraction.  She is perhaps the single most charismatic person with whom I have ever spoken -her laugh is childlike and musical. 

When I broke no contact a few months ago for some closure this became immediately obvious once again.  Even with it being a tough conversation there was still a joyful and immediate connection.  There was also little ability to introspect, no ability for problem solving, little ability to accept accountability, and a complete unwillingness to be truthful.  She is simply lovely --and at this point in her life not equipped to have a healthy relationship.

Fortunately --During our relationship I had retained a couple firm boundaries: 

Firstly, I told her she may never hang up the phone on me.  If she needs to scream 'f#ck you' that is fine... Not great, but fine...  If she was shouting rather than hanging up it gave me a chance to reply -hanging up is unfair and very destructive, as there is no conversation -no reply.  She actually stopped hanging up on me -she told me it was hard, because she always had in past relationships.  I said -well they were likely going to yell back at you right?  I said 'I won't, further I will never call you a bad name or say anything I believe you will find hurtful.' 

I believe anger and even raging are expressions of fear -so I listened, let the vitriol wash away and attempted to figure out what had her scared.  -besides when someone is in diffuse physiological arousal there is no point in arguing or fighting back -they simply cannot hear you.  In any fight I attempt to bring down the level of arousal and get back to a place of reasonable discussion.  I learned from reading on BPD Family I was apparently avoiding JADE and using SET.  This was something I learned at work...  High strung artists apparently make one ready for BPD rage... 

A friend of mine was working with a famous director who in a rage threw one of my friend's monitors on the ground.  My friend handed him another one...   It took all the wind out of the director's rage -because he got no reaction.  Once my friend stood up to him the director never acted out toward him again -- I love this story


Secondly, breaking up is not a tool for negotiation.  I explained it meant end of days for us.  I told her we both have the power of Veto --I explained to her the idea of Mutually Assured Destruction (from the nuclear standoff in the cold war).  I told her we cannot have a loving and healthy relationship if we both have sweaty quivering fingers dancing over 'the button'. 

Well... in a 7 day rage she blew threw this boundary like a raging bull in a china shop.  As I had told her 'Our next break up will be very short, very painful and permanent'... It was.  Likely, that boundary saved me from a very very difficult life. 

I didn't know anything about BPD during our relationship -I just knew I could not thrive in a relationship with was perpetually on such thin ice.



Wicker Man
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Educated_Guess
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« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2019, 04:23:51 PM »

WickerMan, thanks for posting your thoughts on this.  I am not a behaviorist but I find the theories fascinating.  My experience with my upBPD ex was very much a VR as you described it.  In fact, my relationships with my nuclear family were also mostly VR which probably predisposed me to all that dang chasing after something elusive.

I believe that having conscious understanding of the conditioning cycle allows you to disrupt it.  If you are not aware of the conditioning, you are at it's mercy as to when it will become extinct.  By being aware of it, you can step above it in a way.
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