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Author Topic: mother of children denied relocation and attempting to move kids out of state  (Read 435 times)
Seb201

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« on: March 31, 2019, 08:10:07 AM »

Finally have a big court hearing about mother attempting to relocate children out of state into section 8 housing.  It’s clear the judge is not buying her ___ and is going to deny relocation.  Mother is telling children they are moving no matter what and that she will not be here when we get back from our vacation in June with them.  She has told dad that he has to drop them off in the state she will be in or she will meet him halfway to pick up kids.  What would you guys do?  File for emergency hearing?  Address it in the already scheduled court date in early May with the judge that is clearly not a big fan of her?  At the beginning we were going to go for more of 50 50 custody but now I’m wondering if he shouldn’t just file for full custody.  The reason this move is coming to a head now is her mom whom she has lived with her whole life is tired of her ___ and moving to fla to be with her boyfriend.  She has a history of drug use and apparently has not attempted to file for section 8 around our area.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2019, 12:21:01 PM »

The judge will deny relocation in May, and mom is moving in June?

If the judge is likely to deny relocation, what do you anticipate mom will do next? Will she withhold the kids from vacation with you and take them with her?

I would ask for full custody, or something close to that. Even a provisional period of full custody with visitation contingent on her ability to secure housing that meets certain standards. For example, you might ask for visitation during the day, no overnights, if she lives somewhere with roommates.

I don't know what an emergency hearing would do unless you felt she was a flight risk and could take the kids before the May hearing? Maybe others have thoughts on that, and whether the urgency could give the kids additional protections.

It's great that the judge is clear headed.

What leads you to think the judge is not a big fan of mom?
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« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2019, 09:22:22 PM »

Finally have a big court hearing about mother attempting to relocate children out of state into section 8 housing...  She has told dad that he has to drop them off in the state she will be in or she will meet him halfway to pick up kids.  What would you guys do?

If her demands don't reflect the order in effect at the time of her demand then dad can ignore it.  There are times this won't apply but we've learned that much of the time the best advice is to avoid making deals outside the order... "Follow the order" is just about the best short term solution for dad.

Dad may have limits on how much he can do beforehand.  Courts have this inclination not to take action before something has actually happened.  Sort of, "My ex will abuse the kids" can hit the wall of "Well, abuse hasn't happened yet, can't act on it until it does or becomes a more significant risk."

Be sure dad saves all communication about her plans and how determined she is.  She said "moving no matter what" but the court may be cautious and take the "boundless hope" position that she will drop her plans if told No by the court.  So he needs to build a case for court to see that he needs sufficient parental authority to help with compliance of whatever court order.  If the court is not willing to grant full custody now — LnL's advice to seek temporary or emergency custody is good — then at least he needs Decision Making authority or Tie Breaker status (DM or TB) if court wants to keep it at shared custody.

However, courts do get peeved if their orders are ignored or violated.  That is a positive on dad's side.  Of course, for court he needs to be the stable, reasonable parent full of practical solutions.  Still, all the strategies to address or resolve mother's need to control or dictate don't amount to a hill of beans if that parent is determined to do whatever necessary to get her way.  So dad also needs to be aware that appeasing the beast's demands is not a long term solution.  The pattern of BPD is that any perceived weakening of boundaries is perceived not as reasonableness but as encouragement to attack those boundaries even harder.

Is dad have temp orders or a Final Decree?  If temp orders, then courts are more willing to set temp custody since it is considered only 'temporary'.  (My now-ex got temp custody just for being Mother.  The two temp orders covered more than 2 years in all.)  If the divorce is final then he may have to seek Change of Circumstances, a process that can take a year or more.  (For me it took 17 months.)

Another possibility is to determine if a bond (to assure timely return of the children) can be required if she takes the children out of state.  Sounds like she doesn't have a lot of money or money access, so I don't know how high a bond might be set.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2019, 09:37:11 PM by ForeverDad » Logged

Seb201

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« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2019, 05:36:55 AM »

So what is in place now is a final order from about 5 years ago.  Probably something like a 70/30 split.  For a while dad wasn’t seeing the kids bc mom was saying that they did not want to come over.  Mom has been talking about moving for awhile but due to her history we want to keep the kids close by so we can keep an eye on them.  Mom has been caught lying multiple times by the judge.  I was not there but dad said that he didn’t even say too much that mom was basically hanging herself with the judge without him doing anything.  I don’t necessarily think she is a flight risk right now but after court things will definitely go south and she very well might try to withhold kids from vacation.  I feel like she is going to lose custody in the near future if she can’t control herself.  When her mom leaves I’m pretty sure she will have nowhere to stay here.  Dad wants to wait and see what the judge decides but they are both going pro se and we have to submit what custody schedule we would like in 2 weeks.  I think he should file Paperwork asking for full custody until she finds a place to live here.
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« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2019, 10:18:47 AM »

I would file full custody and see what happens.

Sometimes, judges rule based on who seems to be the most reasonable parent, the one who can problem solve and come up with reasonable solutions. That means if she's one dysregulation from losing custody and your side asks for 50/50, the judge may think both parents are hanging by a thread.

It's a fine line for many of us. We have to tell the judge how bad it is without making it seem like we haven't been there to protect the kids.
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Seb201

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« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2019, 12:03:52 AM »

Well I finished the Pre trial statement.  I wish I could put it on here to get some feedback.  We’re going to ask for full custody until before school starts again.  If she doesn’t secure housing by July 31 we said we will enroll kids in our school district.  I’m nervous for what the kids are going to go through when she receives this.  We have to send it out so she receives it 10 days before trial date.  I’m also nervous if we get awarded full custody.  We already have 2 kids, 4 years and 4 months, and we have another one on the way.  This is going to be a hard situation for all involved but I know we are the best place for the kids to be.
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2019, 07:13:11 AM »

Most divorce decrees specify joint custody, that is, both parents have some level of input on the children's care.  Yes, full custody makes everything simpler in one swoop but always be prepared, if your court or state recognizes it, to have Decision Making (DM) or Tie Breaker (TB) status presented as alternate/backup options.  Don't let the judge have the impression that if court is reluctant to grant dad full custody then mother does.

Also be aware of how much your states makes distinctions between legal custody (children's major life decisions) and parenting time or schedule.  If you having school decisions or majority time is sufficient then that would be your fallback position.  Court are reluctant to take away custody from a parent, even one misbehaving.  My point is that if you get what you need then the titles and legal words aren't as important.  Does that make sense?

In my case I exited the divorce with joint or Shared Parenting and equal time.  Didn't work, mother was too entitled and disparaging of me.  I sought legal custody and majority time.  After a year and a half in court I was declared Legal Guardian but was kept at equal time.  (Son's lawyer - Guardian ad Litem or GAL - hoped mother would behave better with this half-measure if she kept enough time to get $$$ in child support.  Yeah, you don't have to wonder how well that worked.)  A couple years later I had to go back when that too failed and seek majority time again - and got it.

Dad has a history of appeasing mother and taking a back seat.  Since court may be reluctant to change things too drastically, be sure the court knows dad is acting on the children's best interests and is prepared for a more active parenting role.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2019, 11:09:22 AM »

I’m nervous for what the kids are going to go through when she receives this. 

I might get a jump start on it by reading Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak. There are some really good tips on how to handle stuff that will likely come your way via the kids.

Also, what do you think about letting the kids know in advance? I don't know how much you feel comfortable saying. There may be some good ideas in Divorce Poison to guide you.

What do you anticipate will happen?
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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2019, 03:33:44 PM »

In addition... consider what her history is on making threats vs. following through with threats. If she has a history of doing the things she threatens, then take more assertive and proactive action than if she just tends to make threats when agitated.
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Seb201

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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2019, 06:06:46 PM »

I haven’t really told the kids much at all besides I am sorry that we didn’t take her to court earlier and it wasn’t right to ask them if they wanted to come over or not.  That I was sorry we put them in that position and if it was hard for us it must by 1000 times harder for them.
  I wasn’t there when they told dad that she was telling them they were moving regardless of court order.  All he told them was that she can’t take them without an order from the judge.  That we were going to be there for them no matter what.  That he and I both work every day and he asked them if they had ever seen her work to which they said no.  And he said well it’s kind of weird how she’s never had a job and now she wants to move you guys to Indiana for work.  And he told them that if she were to stay in the state that he would be able to be there for them if they ever needed him but when they’re out of state it gets harder to be there for them on the day to day.
She def has a history of making threats and not following through but with her mother moving and leaving her without somewhere to stay I’m not sure that this is within her control.
She has already sent texts saying that if he doesn’t let them move that the kids will resent him and that they have told her so already.  They are so good when they are here and truly are awesome kids. whatever comes after she gets denied relocation will be dads fault and she will make sure they blame him.
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2019, 08:25:48 PM »

She has already sent texts saying that if he doesn’t let them move that the kids will resent him and that they have told her so already... whatever comes after she gets denied relocation will be dads fault and she will make sure they blame him.

So she knows it will be difficult to get the court to support he move away efforts.  That's why she's doing the typical blaming and guilting.  "You're an evil dad because you won't do what I tell you to do."  For things like that he needs to let it be like water rolling off a duck's back.  It will take practice but the impact on him will be less and less as the sure-to-come future demands are made.  Yay for solid boundaries!

Of course he has to take this seriously in court.  He needs boundaries complemented by time-tested strategies.  As I wrote before, this is the time to seek more parenting authority to limit her unilateral demands, whether it be more (1) custody and (2) more time or (3) at least increased leverage with some sort of Decision Making or Tie Breaker status.  Court may be reluctant to make substantive changes, so his lawyer ought to ask in some subtle way, "or else you'll see them back here again and again..."
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Seb201

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« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2019, 06:42:08 AM »

So a little update and vent!  We filed the paperwork with the court in time and she got her papers.  She didn’t file her papers 10 days before the court date, like was stated in original paperwork.  In the original paperwork it says that if not filed correctly she will only be allowed to make a statement to the judge and not call any witnesses or present any evidence.  Keep in mind they had 3+ months to get this done.  When we finally received everything it was literally 20 pages of hand written rambling. 
In there she talks about wanting to submit evidence of voice recordings of the twins saying that they want to move with her and don’t care if they see their dad again.  I feel like the judge is going to be pissed, I know I am.  She still has no proof of an actual job for her where she is moving but begs with the judge to let her go.  Regardless we are talking about moving for sec 8 and a secretarial job.  She states she can do better there bc she knows people in somewhat high places... .  She also denies ever having been committed to a mental institution or any current mental health issues but then later on in letter says that she has severe depression, anxiety and ocd.  She also admits to having chronic hep c, fibromyalgia, deg disk disease, Graves’ disease and god knows what else.  The thing that pisses me off is that after she saw our pre trial statement now she wants to submit voice recordings as evidence and her mom as a witness.  Grandma is the biggest enabler ever.  She is the reason we called cps a couple years back bc she kept complaining that mom was neglecting the children and on heroin but would do nothing about it.  I know she will lie her face off at court. 
Hopefully, nothing will be admissible anyway since she messed up filing paperwork in timely manner.  Court is May 3 and we did ask for provisional sole custody.  Mom has been telling children and dad that they have nowhere to live here and are moving regardless.  Children are also upset with dad bc mom is telling them he is the one that is keeping them away from their sister, her other daughter who moved  to same area to get away from mom and live with her dad.  I hope the judge sees as more alienation from mom bc it is in the courts hands now.
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« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2019, 06:53:26 AM »


It may be better to "agree" to admit her statement and agree with much of what is in there (the parts that help you).

Judges usually like to get "the full story".  I would be somewhat reluctant to argue that "the judge should hear xyz" because of a technicality. 

Likely better to argue for more stringent and clear "penalties" in the decree for non-compliance and argue for those base on her "pattern of non-compliance" in the past.

So...if she fails to hand over children in time (fill in the blank with automatic penalty), same with other things she is supposed to do.

Perhaps you can mandate a method of communication where everything is tracked.  There are some apps and websites out there to assist in this.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2019, 10:16:20 AM »

Sometimes it feels like courts start every hearing by saying, "The court doesn't know the truth here, all we have is the court history on file."  However it also generally defaults to outcomes based on the most common scenarios where dad works and mom has the kids most of the time.  Court may see all the claims and bickering and discard much of it.  It would rather hear from professionals, that is, it does want us to Play Doctor.

For that reason you may at some point need a credible and solid Custody Evaluation to dig deeper into the family dynamic, get past all the posturing and determine what is best for the children.  Be very careful that going down that path can be a two edged sword.  An excellent, experienced evaluator can make your case.  On the other hand, an inept or biased evaluator can break it.  So don't agree to or let your ex pick just any evaluator.

Courts like joint selections.  Here's one way to accomplish that while avoiding being sabotaged.  My post below was focused on counselors but you can plug in other professionals such as custody evaluators and the principle still works.

I'm guessing his mother would refuse to allow the child to have counseling.  News Flash:  Most courts love counseling.  If one parent asks the court to approve it, it's likely to be granted.

The crucial thing is to ensure the problem parent doesn't go shopping for a compliant, gullible counselor.  One way to handle that issue, one the courts approve, is for the reasonably normal parent to be proactive, research and build a short list of reputable, capable, experienced counselors and then (what the court sees as having both parents involved) have the problem parent select from among those most excellent professionals.
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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2019, 10:20:34 AM »

If her statements and video are afmitted, so should the tests to your husband be admitted to show the level of coercion.

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« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2019, 08:12:10 AM »

Update!

So we got custody of the kids except for 2 mths in summer and a couple days each holiday break.  He also got sole legal custody.  Mom is already saying she can't come to meet halfway to pickup kids for rest of the summer break because she didn't get support money from us.  She still doesn't have a job or a place to stay... or even a drivers license.  The kids are doing better than I expected with the news but everyone is still having a hard time adjusting.  We are about to have 5 kids and I just don't know how we are going to spend enough time with each of them.  My main concern is a month ago the 12 year old boy slapped my 4 year old in the face which I witnessed and reportedly almost pushed him down to where his head hit a cinderblock, I did not witness that.  Everything else I feel I have the patience to work on with them.  But I will not tolerate my 4 year old being physically and verbally bullied.  We have started them in therapy and plan for to do one family session a week with one individual therapy session for each of them.  As always I have no one to really talk about all the struggles that we go through with so I am here for support and advice.
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« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2019, 08:21:57 AM »

Congratulations!  I'm glad your husband got custody.

Weekly therapy for the kids - and weekly family therapy - should be a hugely positive thing for your family.  It will take a little time, but I expect that it will help things improve.

I don't technically have five kids, but I often end up with that many (3 of ours + 2 neighbor kids who are having a tough time at home).  We've learned to split up.  I can have time with 1 or 2 kids while my husband is spending time with the rest, and then at a different time he has time with just 1 or 2 kids while I manage the rest.

We take full advantage of time in the car.  The older kids are involved in activities, and it's often just one parent and one kid in a car driving from this place to that place.  We have lots of interesting discussions in the car.

We also have a 10-minute ritual with each kid at bedtime.  That kid and their bio parent get quiet time with no one else interrupting.

It's going to be an adjustment, but I have confidence you will figure it out.
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« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2019, 09:27:48 AM »

There's really good parenting advice in Bill Eddy's book Don't Alienate the Kids. You may not need the stuff on alienation so much, but the parts about raising emotionally resilient kids when one parent has BPD can be helpful if you're seeing troubling behaviors.

Eddy's thing is: managed emotions, moderate behaviors, flexible thinking and one other thing I can never remember. It helped me with my own son who had picked up maneuvers that his dad used.

Parenting a child who has been raised by a BPD parent is not always intuitive and a lot of stuff must be learned and practiced.

Congratulations on the full custody 
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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2019, 10:47:05 AM »

Congratulations on getting custody! I'm sure the ex did not pursue a job yet, thick by all would go her way. He prepared for her to continue making poor decisions around custody/visitation in future.

I also found that car time and bedtime were invaluable with my ADD son.
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2019, 03:04:46 PM »

  We are about to have 5 kids and I just don't know how we are going to spend enough time with each of them.  

Nice work and a common worry.  I'm FF...Dad to 8.  Yep..8

Now...I do make an effort to rotate around and take kids on dates and hang out time where it's 1 on 1...so that is important.

It's more important to focus on synergy for the group and getting the group  to work together.  So...D13 handles hair for D6 and D8..makes sure outfits match and all that.  It's practical and it's bonding time.  Then they go yard sales looking together. 

I do make sure from time to time we carve out 13 year old time where she has her friends over and the "littlers" aren't around.

Also...don't solve their problems...let them work it out with occasional guidance or boundaries in their choices. 

Let me know if you want to chat more about big groups of kids.  We generally have a very open house...so our kids have their friends over a lot...

Congrats!

FF
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