Patterns in her behaviour

[clvrnn]

First we hung out for week or so, things were going very well, it was clear we had chemistry and got on well, suddenly became distant. Asked what was wrong, told me she didn’t want to hang out any more because her feelings were overwhelming her. Got annoyed when I suggested talking about it/expressed that I liked hanging out with her, very adamant that I couldn’t change her mind. I remember feeling surprised at the way she was acting, almost shouting at me as if I’d said something bad.
 
Push/pulled, sometimes would speak to me, sometimes wouldn’t. Last day of term things were fine. Messaged her a few times asking to hang out; no response until four months later.

Then said we could be friends but avoided me in person again, had to message her to clarify things because I was confused at avoidance. We gradually started spending time together – this I initiated by asking her if she wanted to meet up.

Started spending more time with her, she’d come over all the time, and we’d see each other almost every day and talk constantly.

Was invited to family home for Christmas. Soon after this, I couldn’t respond to text because of low battery. She became angry, argued with me, told me I was untrustworthy, that I was a liar. Broke up with me. Period of silence lasting around three weeks.

After around a month, we gradually started talking about uni work, then talking normally. Started hanging out again. I could tell that she was holding back as she wasn’t as ‘open’ as she was when we first started dating. She didn’t seem to want to come over as much or spend as much time together.

In final week before break up she seemed to have ‘let go’ and was being nice, spending more time with me, calling me cute, texting me when she’d gone home telling me how nice it was to be with me, turning up at my house, spending more time with her and her family. I remember feeling as if we had made progress as she was acting very close and sweet with me. A couple of days later, sudden rage, broke up with me.

Was acting distant, said we could be friends, I couldn’t manage it. Tried to talk about this with her, she became angry with me for talking about feelings, then there was another argument. Blocked me, unblocked me, then said we could start again and start fresh. Spoke to me once briefly about uni work. I’ve tried to reach out a couple of times and have been met with silence. I have not attempted contact since for 12 days now.

Feeling as if this occasion may be the final break up, but I’m aware also that it may not be. Can see quite a clear pattern here, there seems to be a point in which it gets too much for her and it seems to always be around the time she starts letting me around her family – that seems to be the trigger for these break ups, not sure.


She would always speak about how she struggles with closeness, and would say things like "this is a lot for me" when we were being close, or tell me how much she is afraid of being hurt/hurting someone and having them hate her, or that she sabotages things on purpose when they're going well.

I feel so sad that this keeps happening. I also feel sad that it does look maybe like I'm going to have to work on letting go of her, because in all honesty I've never felt like this about someone before and I really think she could be a lovely partner, but she just can't seem to handle it at all, and I can't force her to do anything. It's really quite upsetting

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[clvrnn]

I read a lot about people with BPD 'using' people for 'supply' and I don't know. That seems such a negative thing. She really does appear to like me and have feelings for me (I don't know if she does now!) - it took her almost a year to become close to me, and as far as I know she hasn't been involved with anyone since her ex-partner, which was about three or four years ago.

She says that it's stressful being involved with "anybody" so I don't think it's likely that she is going off with someone else. I think I believe that her feelings for me were (or are) genuine, but she just can't handle it all so does what she knows - gets rid of me when it starts feeling too much?

I wish I knew. I wish there was a way I could get her to just relax, but there isn't. This is so hard.

Anyway, I'm just rambling. But I've found this website very helpful, so thank you

[an0ught]

I wish I knew. I wish there was a way I could get her to just relax, but there isn't. This is so hard.

It is impossible to help her to get relaxed. But if you tell her "it is impossible to get her totally relaxed with you and she seems at times having to seeks some distance" is may help her to relax a bit , validation is soothing. Depending on how you feel and where you are in your relationship at times dialectic messages may also help like "she can be difficult to love but you love her anyways or maybe because of it".

There may be some fear of engulfment or past experiences of relationships getting volatile when they got closer. Having stronger boundaries on her side would help here but I don't think you can have much influence here - that is more the domain of a therapist. Treat her with respect, hear when she is saying No and be clear where your boundaries lie.

[clvrnn]

It is impossible to help her to get relaxed. But if you tell her "it is impossible to get her totally relaxed with you and she seems at times having to seeks some distance" is may help her to relax a bit , validation is soothing. Depending on how you feel and where you are in your relationship at times dialectic messages may also help like "she can be difficult to love but you love her anyways or maybe because of it".

There may be some fear of engulfment or past experiences of relationships getting volatile when they got closer. Having stronger boundaries on her side would help here but I don't think you can have much influence here - that is more the domain of a therapist. Treat her with respect, hear when she is saying No and be clear where your boundaries lie.

In regards to these dialectic messages, is there somewhere I can find out more about this/these? I think reaching out to her, if I do it at all, will take some effort to be quite sensitive to her.

She would just speak primarily about being anxious when involved with someone, and that previously she was hurt by someone she dated, as well as her last relationship being quite volatile and toxic.

I thought about maybe reaching out, but I'm not sure what I should even do at this stage. Perhaps she is moving on, and I don't want to look persistent or cause any more stress for anyone (including myself). At the same time though, she means a lot to me and it's always nice when we spend time together. I don't know what to do.

[an0ught]

I don‘t think much has been written here about dialectic messaging. Some aspects may come up in the SET workshops. Some aspects may come up in the validation workshops in the different levels of validation. To me it falls under sense making knowing the other person struggles to understand grey and keeping things black and white. Acknowleding  that reality can be fractured and embracing the other with their inner tension.

Validation is based on genuiness (Linehan‘s sixth level is radical genuiness) so this only works if you can see, feel and embrace the contradictions in whatever you want to transport.

[SunandMoon]

Hi clvrnn

I really like the way you've been working through your feelings on  these boards. 

An0ught is right; I couldn't find dialectic messaging on this site but aspects are in the workshops and are really helpful.

From memory, I think I saw you say you haven't read much of the tools yet, so this link should help get you started: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329747.0

Ideally start at 1.01 and work your way through the list... every topic is valuable. Otherwise, you'll find what you're looking for from point 1.11 to 1.17.

Hope this helps!
SaM x

[clvrnn]

Hi clvrnn

I really like the way you've been working through your feelings on  these boards. 

An0ught is right; I couldn't find dialectic messaging on this site but aspects are in the workshops and are really helpful.

From memory, I think I saw you say you haven't read much of the tools yet, so this link should help get you started: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=329747.0

Ideally start at 1.01 and work your way through the list... every topic is valuable. Otherwise, you'll find what you're looking for from point 1.11 to 1.17.

Hope this helps!
SaM x

Hello SaM

Thank you, I have found the responses to my posts to be really helpful, as well as putting everything down in front of me - it really helps.

I'm going to have a look at the tools now, and see how I get on.

[clvrnn]

   

Well, it has been around two weeks since I last attempted contact with her. From experience, two/three weeks is usually the time it takes for her to return to 'baseline' and be open to communicating with me after a conflict.

Once Removed suggested sending something lighthearted that doesn't require a response - which I think is a good idea. However, as she has been not responding I think my goal here is to get a response, and to try and work into at least getting back onto speaking terms with her (if I DO reach out!)

I have read about the 'DEARMAN' technique and the 'SET' technique, both of which seem helpful. The 'DEARMAN' one seems to be more of an in person thing, though? I'm not sure how I'd incorporate that into a message.

Of course I don't want to go in too heavy as she will feel engulfed and overwhelmed and not respond/withdraw, as she often does.

I think I'm just finding it difficult to really know what her opinion/feeling is on me, right now. The last I spoke to her was the whole "let's start afresh" thing, and then a gradual distancing from me. She is usually very outspoken with both her words and her actions - telling me to leave her alone/blocking me, neither of which she has done on this occasion.

I have read that sometimes a pwBPD may withdraw due to overwhelming feelings, so maybe it's that, I don't know. I am also worried about how I will feel if she doesn't respond, and that it's likely to send me into another emotional state, which may be worse than the one I currently feel.

I think that I have a few options for contact.

I could ask how she got on with her grades for the last uni assignment; although I do worry that it's too generic and uni-based, and I wanted to make the connection 'personal' and specific to our dynamic, if that makes sense.

I could send her a song - nothing sentimental, but she is a musician and we'd always send each other random songs throughout the day. I thought that doing this may be a reminder to her of our dynamic and it's lighthearted, although I worry about getting no response to that, I don't know.

I don't think just saying "hey how are you" is strong enough seems to lack purpose/be a bit of a lame attempt at contact.

God, this is so difficult,

[clvrnn]

Or maybe I should just contact her with a well written email, where I can use some of the  techniques used in validation, DEARMAN, etc.

At this stage, I'm not sure what would really be best. I feel as if in the past I've emailed her after a period of silence and that's led to contact between us again. I don't know if a message would simply be easy to ignore, as she is quite avoidant by nature. I don't know.

To be honest because I feel like if she doesn't respond to the message, it will lead me to wanting to contact her again whereas with the email at least I will have tried and said everything I want to say? I don't know

[clvrnn]

I'm sorry for all the rambling, yet another post.

I'm not feeling too confident about things, right now. She was online until quite late and I became paranoid that she has met or is talking to someone else, as that is unusual for her. I recognise that this is mere speculation and she could have been talking to anyone, but I think it made me realise that it's possible she may just have moved on.

I suppose it bought back some feelings of sadness in that I remembered the anger outburst and the break up, and how it all feels very frustrating, as she just keeps pushing me away, and the path back is always so difficult for me to navigate.

I also felt sad that we only have a year left at university, and I'd hoped that this summer we would spend time together and become closer, not drift apart again. When we go back to uni the time flies past so quickly. After that, we go our separate ways. The university thing is like a crutch, I suppose. I hadn't contemplated life after it, without her.

I don't really know what to do, now. When I feel like this, I always want to just contact her and tell her how I feel. Sometimes she responds, other times she doesn't. I feel so lonely and frustrated.

I really have no idea what to do, anymore. I'm wondering if I should just accept that it's over.

[clvrnn]

Decided (against better judgement) to send a song, saying that I thought she'd like it and asked whether she'd seen her uni grade for an essay we did a few weeks ago.

She is still online pretty much constantly, so I do think she is probably talking to someone else now and has moved on. I've literally just sent the message and I''m worried about how I'm going to feel; I don't think she'll respond and I think it was a mistake. I don't think she cares about me, anymore.

I think (and feel) that it's obvious I've been 'replaced' and that this is really it, now.

[once removed]

i think going in with heavy feelings or rehashing the conflict would have been a mistake.

what you sent is a good "feeler". its light, and you can get a sense for yourself of where she is. if she doesnt respond, she may still need some time, but it sends the message youre more interested in moving forward than rehashing the conflict, and that thaws the ice, gives her an easy opening when she is ready to engage.

[clvrnn]

i think going in with heavy feelings or rehashing the conflict would have been a mistake.

what you sent is a good "feeler". its light, and you can get a sense for yourself of where she is. if she doesnt respond, she may still need some time, but it sends the message youre more interested in moving forward than rehashing the conflict, and that thaws the ice, gives her an easy opening when she is ready to engage.

Hello OR, thank you for replying again.

I agree, I think it was a good neutral and non-threatening message to send. I don't think going in heavy would have been a good idea, no.

I do worry though about the time she is spending online - she never usually does that, and I feel as if she probably has met someone, which is upsetting to think about. I try not to think in terms of discards and new supplies, but it really is starting to feel this way.

I also now doubt the validity of anything she may have told me she was feeling about me, and that she's suddenly going to be happy with someone new. I recognise that this is all in my head, but still.

[once removed]

the two of you are on break from school, right?

shes probably keeping busy. that might involve meeting someone, it might not. if so, that would keep her busier...i dont see why it would preclude the two of you ever speaking again.

"supply" is kind of an internet buzzword without much clinical validity. there are certainly self absorbed and self centered people.

i think the likelihood is that shes keeping busy and having fun. things have been tense between the two of you. maybe shes not over it. maybe shes not ready yet. if shes not ready, your message might have sped up the process, given her an easier "in", but doesnt guarantee shes ready to respond.

[clvrnn]

Yes, we’re on a break now.
I know that she stays at home often and doesn’t have many close friends – myself and another person were her ‘only friends’ as she put it. I know, rationally, that there is no way to ascertain whether she is seeing someone merely from looking at how often she is online, and that part of my thinking there is anxiety-related/cognitive distortions.
As for us speaking again; I don’t know. This feels a lot different to the previous fall out.
There is another BPD forum that I use which uses a lot of those words – discard, supply, etc. I try to use this as my main outlet as I know things can get a bit toxic over there at times.
Perhaps she is just keeping busy, I don’t know. Maybe she isn’t ready. Maybe I’m just stupid for repeatedly trying to fix this connection, and she actually doesn’t care.

[clvrnn]

Hello

[clvrnn]

Hello

Just realised I was midway through writing a post and had hit 'post' without even finishing it!

I don't really know who I'm talking to here but anyway, . There's still been no response to the message I sent; I doubt there'll be one at this stage.

I've still been thinking about sending a kind of final email/message - I realise that she has a lot of internal issues and conflicts and that, even if she does return, it will always be like this. It always has been like this. I feel as if I'm still waiting for her to contact me, and maybe if I sent that message it would be me closing things in my head, and not expecting a response. I really don't know.

I don't want to keep trying again every few weeks and hoping I'll get a response, and looking like a person that can't move on. I really don't know what is best.

[Sufferingsoul34]

I am still in the same situation as you and it’s so so hard... reallt unsure what to do. I haven’t sent my wife a message yet and it’s been 5 days now once we both moved out in different directions. I’ve no idea if it would open the doors more if I messaged and told her I missed her, or it would push her further away. Torn between messaging her but feel like I will give in as time goes on, and even if I do message her, her response might make me feel worse but at least I will know I guess that I’ve sent the message to open the door and maybe that will help me with my anxiety right now.

[once removed]

I've still been thinking about sending a kind of final email/message - I realise that she has a lot of internal issues and conflicts and that, even if she does return, it will always be like this. It always has been like this. I feel as if I'm still waiting for her to contact me, and maybe if I sent that message it would be me closing things in my head, and not expecting a response. I really don't know.

this is certainly one option. there are some things i would consider in going down that route.

the obvious one is what if she changes her mind? i think when terminating a relationship, its important to have thought it through, and mean it. otherwise we can look wishy washy, or like we were just trying to get a response.

and in that sense, given you just sent a bid to connect, and that she hasnt responded (yet), a message like that can sound a little bit like "you cant fire me, i quit".

I really don't know what is best.

you dont have to do anything.

[clvrnn]

this is certainly one option. there are some things i would consider in going down that route.

the obvious one is what if she changes her mind? i think when terminating a relationship, its important to have thought it through, and mean it. otherwise we can look wishy washy, or like we were just trying to get a response.

and in that sense, given you just sent a bid to connect, and that she hasnt responded (yet), a message like that can sound a little bit like "you cant fire me, i quit".

you dont have to do anything.

Thank you for replying again, OR.

You're right, it would look like that - and to be honest, that's how I really feel. I feel as if, well, "instead of waiting around for a response or hoping for one, let me just end it myself!"

I have been thinking about this a lot, and I know that sending something like that doesn't change the situation, neither does it change the way I feel. It's unlikely to make a difference in how she feels, either - she hasn't historically been receptive to discussions of feelings/anything serious, even when we WERE involved with each other.

I realise that she might change her mind also; she has done so in the past. I just think I would like to learn how to stop hoping that she'll come back, I haven't quite mastered that, yet. This push/pull has been going on for two years - so I'm very used to having her in my life and my world.

That alone, though, suggests that she will never really change this behaviour, and perhaps I'd be better off working on moving away from this dynamic.

I wonder also whether she may just not be speaking to me because she needs time to get over things - when I last saw her at university, she didn't appear to be annoyed or angry with me, just keeping a bit of a distance. She'd often look at me when I was talking, and at one point did laugh at a joke I made. I know that she wouldn't have done either of those, had she been angry or disliking me at that time.

There was also a thing where we walked past each other in the corridor and I was talking to someone - as she walked past me I could have sworn she went to say something to me but then caught herself and didn't, as I remember her head turning in my direction and looked as if she was about to speak, then she looked as if she had second thoughts about it.

This second break up seemed to come after a time where she told me that her feelings were strong and that she didn't "want to call it love", but that it was very strong. From what I understand, pwBPD do struggle with these strong feelings? Maybe she doesn't hate me at all.

I really don't know, I'm only going from what I really know. I don't think I will send that email, then. It doesn't really have a purpose, I think I did want to just make contact again. 

[clvrnn]

Well, there still hasn't been any response, which I suppose is difficult - with a person who doesn't have BPD, it feels as if there is a clear cut reason that someone may be ignoring you. With her, knowing her as a person, there could be any number of reasons for the silence.

I do really miss her, but I'm starting to feel as if... well, maybe she's forgotten me, maybe she's with someone else, maybe she misses me, I really don't know. I think maybe I should open a thread on the 'detaching' board, .

[clvrnn]

Oh, I give up. Why on Earth would I think this person is even still thinking about me in any way? Clearly she isn't. I don't mean anything to her, or, in fact, to anyone.

[once removed]

how long has it been since you (both) last spoke?

[clvrnn]

how long has it been since you (both) last spoke?

It's been a month - a month today, actually - since we last spoke. That was the heated argument we had over the phone, and the "we can start again" conversation. That was the last time she responded to anything.

She spoke to me briefly at university a couple of days after that, about something I can't even remember, think it was something about classes.

Nothing since. No response to anything I've sent her.

I don't want to be thought of as someone who cannot move on, or some sort of stalker (by her) - if it wasn't for all of her past behavioural habits in terms of avoidance and silence I wouldn't be thinking that this silence means anything.

I'm not naive enough to not know that someone not responding means they are 'finished' with you, but because of her personality, I assume there is a reason for this.

Also, in the past, she has been very vocal in times of conflict when she doesn't want contact, or when she has blocked me. The fact that she has not said anything, and has not even blocked me... I don't know.

I don't really know what to think, to be honest.

[once removed]

it sounds like your self esteem is crashing.

and it sounds like on some level you know thats driving some of your thoughts, but the thoughts are powerful, and persistent.

i bring that up because in a relationship with someone with BPD traits, it can really push us, and if our self esteem is crashing, if we are caught in the push/pull cycles, it can make navigating even more challenging.

if she contacted you today or tomorrow, i suspect things might crash and burn fairly quickly.

Strength: It takes a great deal of strength and emotional stability to be in a BP relationship and not be emotionally injured by it.  A person in a weak emotional state, who feels wounded/abused, or depressed is likely to be consumed by the relationship, confused by the intense rages and idealization, and finding their self worth in decline.  If you chose this path, you've got to be very strong and very balanced.

Realistic Expectations: A person with BPD is emotionally underdeveloped and does not have "adult" emotional skills - especially in times of stress.  If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

it seems youre at a crossroads right now. maybe she will get back to you. maybe she wont. maybe the two of you can find a relationship that works. maybe you cant. maybe she gets back to you, and you decide the nature of the relationship ought to change.

i would work toward one path or the other...both will require digging down, and finding a centered and balanced place to approach this.

[clvrnn]

Thank you for the above reply, Once Removed.

My self-esteem is getting lower. I feel, sometimes, as if I've just been forgotten. That maybe we weren't that close, maybe I just need to get over it, etc.

There hasn't been a response from her at this stage, from the last attempt at contact I made. I am, I suppose, starting to feel a little helpless in terms of options.

I had thought about sending a longer form of contact where I am open about everything - not necessarily feelings or anything like that, but maybe, in a sense, an actual request for us to move forwards as friends, or whatever. I don't know what I'd put into it.

I worry that she may be involved with someone else, and that if she is, she'll be so caught up in the idealization of it all that I will be thought of as irrelevant, etc. I recognise that we cannot be involved with each other forever, but the abrupt nature of the break up still, I think, is something I haven't been able to process.

I don't know if her feelings were even genuine, or whether I am just clinging on to something that's clearly over.

I still really don't know what to do, in terms of how I move forward. I still feel stuck in a kind of limbo, to be honest.