contact or no contact?

[jeanoc]

 a very long exhausting, dramatic story short...My therapist said my husband and I need to stay strong and don't answer her phone calls and texts unless we are together.  She is going to try to find the weakest link like she has in the past and use us against each other like she has in the past.  Found out yesterday my husband called her aunt for her address so he could mail her a card.  When I confronted him abut it, he said it was going to be a letter telling her he is done.  She called him 3 weeks ago telling him everything is my fault and that I am a horrible person.  He never stood up for me once and shut it down.  And deep down  the fact that he didn't do that, he gave her the answer she needed and that is ... she can finally break us up.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[FaithHopeLove]

  He never stood up for me once and shut it down.  And deep down  the fact that he didn't do that, he gave her the answer she needed and that is ... she can finally break us up.

I am so sorry you are going through that. Having a loved one with BPD can put such pressure on a marriage or other relationship. Are you and your husband getting help for yourselves?

[jeanoc]

I am but he won't.

[FaithHopeLove]

It is good you are.

[jeanoc]

I don't think my marriage is going to survive this.  My other kids are finally doing better and I see this now after she has been gone for a few months the toll all of this took on them.  I don't want expose them again.  My marriage has been way stronger since our BP has been gone. We have been getting along well and for 1st time in 5 years we have been a team up until the night she called and told my husband she loves him and it is all my fault. Things changed after that, he has been cold to me.  He wants so badly to believe this and I know she is calling because she didn't get a car from me and is revengeful.  It is always games and I am so so so tired of the games!  I just want a normal life!

[Huat]

Hi Jeanoc

Yep, hard to keep a marriage together when one parent is looked upon as "the good one" and the other "the bad one."  Must be even more difficult when one is a step-parent.

We will be celebrating our 57th wedding anniversary this year and our real problems with our daughter started on our 17th wedding anniversary when she ran away for the first time and that "celebration" had us driving the streets looking for her.  She was 12.

I, her Mom, have been her heroine one minute, her nemesis the next...sometimes in the blink of an eye.  On the other hand her father, in her eyes, has always been seen as to walk-on-water.  Never being the brunt of her anger, he never has felt my pain nor for the most part understood it.

Can't tell you how many hate letters I have received over the years...moving on to emails now.  Mind you, during our periods of reconciliation I have received cards of glowing praise.   Go figure, huh?  Last year she did write to her father (a 13-page-typed letter delivered to another location, making sure he received it) telling him how bad I was...how I was brainwashing him.

It took a long time for me to reach out for help...for me...for us. I was kind of surprised when my husband agreed to accompany me.   I remember him being so confident sitting there until the counsellor looked him in the eye and asked what he had done to protect me, his wife, when the arrows were flying in my direction.   He stuttered then was speechless...and my heart sang!  That was my first, sweet feeling of what it is like to be... validated.   : )

You refer to "my therapist."   Are you in joint therapy or going it alone?  I so hope it is joint therapy!   As you have shared, this is your step-daughter who is causing the upheaval in your lives...a lot of different dynamics/emotions in play.  Whatever...those other 3 children you share together deserve harmony in their lives...a set of loving, non-quarreling parents.

I know that my husband and I are in it for the long run...no matter what.  What the heck...57 years invested and while, battle-scarred, we really do love each other.  I know he is trying to understand and hoping to do better by me in regards to our daughter.  I know too that I have grown in knowledge and am much more confident that I can hold-my-own if/when conflict with her occurs.

BPD Family has been a life-line for me, Jeanaoc.  I hope it will be the same for you as you put one foot in front of the other and face the challenges that will undoubtedly come your way.  By all means stick with a therapist.  By all means fight like hell to keep your marriage together but in saying that, I fully acknowledge that it will take the two of you to make it happen.

A ((HUG) for you...from...Huat 

[jeanoc]

Thank you Haut very much. Your response was everything to me. Know one where I live knows or understands what I am going through including my husband.  My husbands way of dealing with it is to never talk about it. No he isn't seeing a therapist,  He doesn't want me talking about it to anyone but I have to because it eats me up every minute of the day. The thing is that my husband is starting to resent me that he is with me and the kids instead of her since she called and told him she loved him.  More and more everyday he is more distant.  I love my BP stepdaughter, I miss the person I know she can be.  I was the only person who disciplined her because my husband never wanted to make her mad. I went through every high and low with her and I am the person who she hates and tells my husband it is all my fault.  Yet, I know how much she has learned and has done because I was by her side.  I have never had very good self esteem. My husband hasn't always treated me right.  He doesn't make me feel loved very often and he often can be verbally mean when he gets angry.  I hate that I just said that.  He has never been very good to me.  I think he is a good to me as he can be if that makes any sense.  His true love and the only thing that he has ever really shown love for is our BP.  She knew it and I know it.  She used to threaten she could take him away from me in a heart beat and we both knew she could.  I am at the point in my life where why do I have to fight so hard for people to love me?   I am tired of fighting for that.  It is an awful feeling.

[Huat]

Hello again, Jeanoc.   Glad you are still with us.

One very important word that struck me in your post was "self-esteem" (well, maybe 2 words).  When you think of it...THAT is the secret to life.  If one has bad self-esteem the battle never gets won.  On the other hand...if one has good self-esteem...one can't be beaten down.

My mother walked away from our family when I was in my early teens.  My daughter first ran away when she was 12.  Not much to foster good self-esteem there when the 2 "bookends" in my life leave.  It has been a long, hard struggle for me to get to where I am now...probably will always be a work-in-progress but that is okay because I do recognize that I progress more than I slide back.

Of course, while so many of our stories here have similarities, none are exactly the same.  In my story I do not have the extra component of the difficult person in my life being a step-daughter.  Lucky me (?)...this one is mine.  (Sigh!)

It really is too bad that your husband will not agree to counselling...but...sure hope you continue...and...I hope you find your counsellor is a good one...one who gives you that much-needed validation.   While I strongly encourage you to stay with with this forum...keep pouring our your heart and your hurts...having that other sounding board will be of so much help to you as you forge ahead and make decisions that only you can make.

Although my husband and I have come a long ways, I am so aware that he just does not like to talk about our "situation" with our daughter.  When the urge comes to me to mention her name, recall something or other in respect to her, for the most part he is silent...and then he will hum...yes...HUM!...GRRRRR!   The wind is in my sails...his head is in the sand.  Which is better?

What I want to say to you, Jeanoc, is that you have to learn how to look after you.  You have to weigh everything and then decide how much you are willing to fight for...how much you are willing to bend.  A problem is only a problem if you give it that title...then you have choices to make.  What you don't allow to destroy you can make you strong and how sweet when you get a taste of that strength.

Onward and upward, Soul-Sister!

Huat

[Lollypop]

if one has good self-esteem...one can't be beaten down

Hi jeane

My heart goes out to you it really does. Like Huat, I’ve found this forum a safe place to explore ideas and express thoughts I could never say to anyone. It’s been life changing and I don’t say that lightly. I have a new found confidence that stems directly from learning how to better interact with others.

What I get from your post is relationships. And actually every post here deals with that concern at the very core. We struggle having a relationship with our BPD and our family who also struggle. It’s a complex web of power struggle, emotions and dramas as we flip around with very different feelings and roles.

Accepting that we are all trying our very best but could try a little harder helped me calm down, we can’t change others, only how we react to others.

Low self esteem means low self worth. That’s me in a nutshell.

What I’ve discovered though Jeane, as hopefully you have -  if you’ve been able to reflect on it, that having low self esteem, and feeling unjustly treated and then speaking out takes real courage.  Courage comes deep down in the belly, we speak up despite the fear of not knowing what will happen. You showed great courage raising and disciplining your step-daughter whilst your husband chose an easier path.

Hugs
LP

[livednlearned]

Hi jeanoc,

I'm the step parent too, and my H is enmeshed with his uBPD (dx bipolar) daughter (22). There's a lot you've written that makes sense to me, including that feeling of having a child occupy what I consider the spousal space.

I have had experience with BPD sufferers in my life so this isn't my first rodeo, but the step parenting dynamic sure makes it feel challenging in different ways.

The agreement to not be in contact with your daughter unless you two are together sounds like it may have set you up for disappointment. You now know he cannot do that so it might be time to explore the many options between doing the same thing over and over, versus ending the marriage. It may seem like there are only two ways forward (stay together and suffer, or get divorced) but most likely there are many. Maybe we can help you sort out a plan that gives you some time to breathe and figure out other boundaries that could be effective.

With SD22, I know and she knows that her dad cannot say no to her. I also know I cannot change H's behaviors toward her and after some conflict confronting that truth, I am at peace. I can only change what I do. Fortunately, changing my behavior has surprisingly led to small changes in H's behaviors, enough that I am willing to live with some degree of dysfunction.

SD22 texts constantly, all day. She calls him every day and sometimes twice. Trying to get him to limit her calls was a futile effort.

Instead, I now have boundaries about what I am willing to be exposed to and how I will respond if I am. If H wants to go out and have a nice dinner, I ask him if he feels he can spend 90 minutes without his phone, leaving it in the car or at home. If he can't, then I do something else. I have no judgment anymore about his compulsion to respond to her right away, I simply want to know if he feels ready to be present with me and if he can't, we can try again another time.

Same thing with her visits. He will never say no or tell her he wants to check in with me so instead of fighting about what he will do, I let him know what I will do. I will contact SD22 directly and let her know whether it works for me or not. I will also make plans to visit friends or be out of the house if I know her visit will primarily happen when I'm home and H is at work. I'm not her babysitter, which is how it can feel when she stays with us. After a few interactions directly with SD22, H now checks with me before automatically saying yes because he would rather be the intermediary than having me say no directly to SD22.

You have a good boundary in place right now -- your daughter cannot live in the home because of the risk to the other kids. Is there any other boundary with your H that you would find acceptable when it comes to your daughter?

[jeanoc]

A boundary I would like is if he does talk to her she isn't allowed to talk down about me or even discuss me.  I think when she does it lets her feel like she is in control and turning him away from me.  She has not contacted us in a month (as far as I know...) but I know it is coming.   It is usually every 3-4 weeks she does something to make sure we have drama in our lives. 

The weird thing is I miss her terribly, but yet am I don't want to see her. I wanted so badly to have a normal family dynamic with her. I adopted her and my husband was mad, he hated that we got along. He got jealous. He would never discipline and I am a school teacher at the same school and when she got in trouble instead of getting after her he would yell at me.  I got to the point in the last couple years I didn't even bring her name up or he would explode!  He never wanted us to go shopping together or her to go with me when the kids and I would go see my parents. She knew this. She was old enough to see this and to see how all of it affected me, we were very close but ultimately she was an enemy also because towards the end she used it against me to have control. When she started blackmailing, when she didn't get her way I knew what I was dealing with and my husband who I couldn't talk to was looking at her like she was perfect and did nothing wrong.  He told me he hated me because of her. And he did, he looked at me with hate.  But honestly, that happened the day she moved in.  Nothing else mattered. 
I appreciate so much the wisdom everyone has shared.  I agree I am in control of me, I can only let things affect me if I allow it to.  Honestly, I just want to be loved.  But I know I am loved by my kids and that has changed my way of thinking more, I need to live for them and do things with them.  I shouldn't let my H and BPD affect how I live my life so much.  My kids deserve to see me happy.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Only Human]

My heart really goes out to you, jeanoc. We all want to feel loved and cared about, I'm sorry to hear you're not getting that from your H.

Like the others, I'm really glad you've stuck with us, we are walking alongside you and holding you up when you're not strong.

I'm glad you're seeing a therapist, even if your H doesn't want to. Your mental health and emotional well-being are the priority here.

You've gotten a lot of great feedback from others here and I'm glad you feel comfortable sharing things you "hate saying." There are no judgments here.

Regarding your statement, "A boundary I would like is if he does talk to her she isn't allowed to talk down about me or even discuss me." Unfortunately, we have zero control over what others say or do. Nada, zilch! Boundaries are more about what we will do or not do, things we DO have control over.

I popped in briefly before bed so don't have time or energy to respond more helpfully and for that I'm sorry. But your post really tugged at my heart and I couldn't log off without sending you this hug  and to tell you to keep posting, sharing, figuring this out with all of us here. We've got you.

~ OH

[Lollypop]

Hi Jeanoc

Honestly, I just want to be loved.  But I know I am loved by my kids and that has changed my way of thinking more.

Just like OH says, We ALL want the same thing:  

to be understood and FEEL loved

Without these two very important things our relationships can falter.

You clearly love your kids very much and it’s wonderful to hear that they are in your life and emotionally connected to you. Spending time with them sounds like a very positive step to find some relaxation and some fun.

I need to live for them and do things with them.

I’m saying this very gently. We must learn to take better care of ourselves and this is done by putting ourselves first.

I spent my entire life putting everybody else first and that’s just not balanced. I had feelings of low self worth. I certainly wasn’t demonstrating to my kids how to live a fulfilled and happy life. I put my full focus on them and that’s not healthy either - for them or me.

I encourage you to do something just for yourself today. Even if it’s sitting outside with a coffee. Just something small, just for yourself.

Then repeat the next day  

Slowly, this helped me learn what a healthier relationship with myself felt and looked like. It helps me in all my other relationships. I’m more confident and able to set a limit or even a boundary in just the right way. The forum helped me. It’s Baby steps.

I shouldn't let my H and BPD affect how I live my life so much.  

You’ve every right to feel the way you do. It’s ok to express how we feel. In a relationship it’s a key element to make it a healthy relationship. Trying to have a healthier relationship with somebody with a mental illness is incredibly tricky - as you’ve discovered yourself!  

It takes some very basic communication and interaction skills to help us along. You can learn these yourself and this forum can help you too!  Going back to the first point above - it helps us know that, despite all the strange and complex behaviours we are witnessing, we all seek the same things.

It is mostly listening and observing somebody else without reacting. Saying the right thing so they know you understand them. It isn’t easy to understand how a person with a mental health problem thinks but it starts with better interaction skills.

My kids deserve to see me happy.

You deserve to be happy.

You’ve mentioned a boundary that you’d like. OH has pointed out that we can’t control how another person behaves. The only control we have is over ourselves. Our happiness level can be improved by very small things and better limits (using our new toolkit of skills that we keep strapped to our big girly boots on).

A limit is something regarding the everyday, it makes the household and relationships run smoother. It’s about respectful communal living. Limits are flexible because some days can just be tough right and we know we all get prickly if we’re just having one of those bad days. An example might be, clean the counters after you’ve been in the kitchen or no smoking in the house.

A boundary is a 6 foot thick concrete wall that is never crossed. If it is crossed it always has a consequence. I use these sparingly because to be honest my son is a quiet BPD and doesn’t rage. Boundaries are based on our own moral code. An example is “you will not hit me”.

I’m sorry this is so long, my heart goes out to you Jeanoc as I can see you’re caught between a hard rock. It’s complex I know and it’s going to take some time to unravel for you.

If you can accept that a change of approach is needed and that includes a committed focus on yourself and your needs that’s a massive step forwards in any girl’s life.

It’s up to you to work out if contact or no contact works for you while all your attention is developing yourself and your skill set so you can arm yourself up with what you’ll need. One husband and step-daughter in a drama triangle. You have to emotionally step outside of it and not get caught up in their dramas.

Livednlearn gives some great advice. Huat and Faith too.
You found us and are in the right place.

Hugs

LP

[livednlearned]

A boundary I would like is if he does talk to her she isn't allowed to talk down about me or even discuss me. 

A boundary is something we have control over. It's our limit. Your limit sounds like you don't want to hear negative talk about you.

A rule is telling her she can't say anything negative about you (there is usually an "or else").

A plea is asking someone to not say anything.

I haven't found that rules or pleas work, especially for someone struggling with emotion regulation and impulse control. With SD22, I've noticed that she is like a moth to flame when I state a rule. She has to test it and gains a one-up position. If she can get me to choose between her and the rule and I choose her, she feels a fleeting moment of worthiness. It doesn't matter how I feel because her needs are so primitive and powerful and non negotiable. They run her life.

What you do have control over is what you will listen to. Maybe you decide that if H talks to her, you don't want to know unless it's something positive or neutral. If it's negative about you, then let him know you will walk away. Then walk away. Every time.

I have a boundary with H that if he triangulates the three of us I will tap out. SD22 likes to send messages to me through H and I will not act on those messages or send a message back. If SD22 wants to talk she can address me directly. That's a limit I can control. It took consistency and some discomfort on my part (discord with H), and he now suggests to SD22 that she come to me directly.

Behavior that is clipped often reappears elsewhere, however. She no longer sends messages through H, but she now wants to have sit-downs and talk about things I'm doing that bother her. Sometimes it feels she comes up with things on the spot. I can't figure out exactly what the game is, only that it makes me feel manipulated. So I'm working on a new limit where I will consider things in writing. She's a good writer and I'm a good reader   and if it's important enough she can share it with me in writing. We'll see how that one goes.

I have another boundary with H that I simply put into effect without announcing it to H.  I no longer comment on stories involving SD22 because it felt like all we did was discuss SD22. She was renting space in my head and I have a high needs child that has been in and out of the hospital who genuinely requires attention. H will say something about SD22 and I will listen, give him a few moments to decide if he's done, then I change the topic.

If any of this sounds heartless, I have found the opposite to be true. The more I take care of myself, the more compassion I have for her. If I feel emotionally and psychologically safe, I am a better step mama.

[Mirsa]

Hi Jeanoc,

You've gotten such great feedback here, I have little to add.  Except to commisserate with that feeling of not being truly wanted or valued by your husband.  I am divorced; we split just three years ago.  It was a relief in many ways, although then he kind of started to act really crazy with the kids.  That's a whole other story.  But, I will say that once the dust settled, BPD DD lives with him and the other daughter has stayed with me.  They are kind of birds of a feather, and boy it's nice to have a peaceful home with a daughter who loves and appreciates me and is calm and drama-free.  I would much rather be alone than lonely with someone who doesn't value me.  I'm much less lonely now than when married. 

Your post made me wonder how much of an impact the BPD DD had on the health of my marriage in the years leading up to the split.  She was frequently ill with long-term Lyme disease and demanded constant attention.  I may have given her to much, but he pulled away, feeling helpless, and gave her no attention or affection.  In retrospect, I wish I had carved out more time and space for mySelf.  I deserved it, needed it and time to reflect, think about what I wanted for myself, and just be Me.  I hope you can find some ways to do this...separate yourself from the constant chaos and try to regroup a little. 

I hope you will be a success story and sharing your achievements with us all here in the future.

Mirsa

[jeanoc]

Well, I contacted BP16 by email the other day.  I have been sick to my stomach since she called my husband and said all those things.  I don't have her cell number anymore because she has switched phones so I emailed her.  I basically told her that I know what she said about me and that it was hard for me to believe she could say those things until I heard her really say them.  I told her I have always loved her and have been in her corner but hearing all of that really hurt.
She responded by asking why I haven't contacted her sooner? and telling me she knew I was listening to the conversation.  I told her I never contacted her because I never had her new number and after the big explosion of the fight I was going to let things simmer down and honestly I knew she was going to be mad at me because that is what she does.  I was right. 

I guess I just needed her to know, I know...

My birthday was the next day and I didn't hear from her, but I wasn't expecting to. 

 

[Only Human]

Thanks for posting an update, jeanoc.

I'm so sorry your DD didn't reach out for your birthday, I bet that stung at least a little. My son forgot to call me for my birthday a few weeks ago - there is no bad blood between us, and we are in regular contact, yet it hurt just the tiniest bit.

How are you holding up?

~ OH

[jeanoc]

I haven't written for awhile but I read posts to try to help my mental state.
 
My 18 year old BPD is graduating high school in a few weeks... She doesn't live with us anymore because she falsly turned my husband in for child abuse in November.  Child protective services suggested she lives else where and not where her siblings can be affected by all the drama.  since then it has been up and down with her. She used to call me but only to try to manipulate me for things... money, car.  She has since tried breaking my husband and I up twice by trying to convince us to divorce each other and tell us separately how she loves us but he is awful and to him how I am awful.  Never ever owning up for her manipulations and schemes.  WE haven't talked to her in 2 months. I messaged her to tell her I know what she said about me and it really hurts but that I also love her still. No response for the last 3 weeks. 

I have really mixed feelings about going to her graduation that is 8 hours away.  She hates us and doesn't want to see us and I don't want to ruin her day and cause more drama. There... I said it, I don't want anymore DRAMA.  becasue I know she still isn't ready to communicate with out drama and screaming and yelling.  She is never wrong, she things everyone else owes her everything. She has never once thought of what she has put us through and what we live through being in a town where they actually think we abused our kid when actually she can't stand the word no.  She thinks being told no is a abusive. She thinks being told to watch your attitude is abusive.  You can't parent her unless things are going her way.  I don't want to go to the graduation because of all the drama but yet I feel terribly guilty.  Anyone have any words of wisdom for me?  I have went and talked to a counselor a couple times and it has helped but then after a couple weeks I am back to the constant gut ache.  The thought of someone I love so despise me and wants to hurt me is really upsetting.  I know she wants to ruin me and honestly don't know why. I really just want to stay away until I know she has changed her attitude about things.

[FaithHopeLove]

I see it has been a couple of hours since you posted about the graduation. Did you go?

[jeanoc]

It isn't for another few weeks

[Huat]

Hi there Jeanoc

Good to know you are still here.  Sometimes I, too, am just reading...then something spurs me on to jump in, add my 2 cents, or get a much-needed hug.

Yep, you sure have to work on that guilt stuff, Jeanoc, and so good to hear you are still visiting with your counsellor.  Keep going!  Stay confident in knowing you have (and are!) doing the best you can do for this troubled, young girl.

So...travelling 8 hours to go to her graduation?  Have you and your husband had any conversations about what to do?  I can well understand how you have mixed feelings about meeting up with her.  Will she be grateful if you come...or...will there be drama?

Whatever you decide, Jeanoc, it will be well-thought out and, considering the circumstances, it will be the right decision.  No second guessing yourself. 

((HUGS)... ...from Huat

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[jeanoc]

Haut,

You have been a savior to me, I have read the posts that you have written to me over and over.  Thank you...