what does he really want?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi everyone,

I recently posted a (super long) explanation of my relationship and breakup w my BPD ex. In summary: dated BPD male for 3 years, he struggled with ocd and coming from a family with very destructive relationship models (parents violently hate each other, dad values partying/promiscuity), out of the blue he cheated on me with a BPD female and lived with her for 2 months, things fell apart between them, months later him and I reconnected.

Since then we've spent a lot of time together, from the very first day we acted like we were dating - being around his family, being affectionate/intimate, going out, visiting each other's schools, etc. But he has consistently sent mixed signals - he said he doesn't want commitment because he wants to live a lifestyle where he has the freedom to party and hook up with girls, but he's also broken down crying more than once telling me he loves me so much no matter what, he feels so happy when we're together, things feel like they did when we were dating but better, he wants to be in an open relationship, he told his father we were "together" etc. He'll facetime me every day one week and say he wants to see me, but then he'll disappear and detach and act completely indifferent or even like I bother him, like the things said the last time we hung out didn't happen.

This past weekend things felt different - it wasn't like the last time, which was amazing. I tried to approach the subject lightly, saying it was okay if his feelings changed again but I needed to know for my own sake. He got super angry, loud, and violent (not towards me, more like punching walls) and we fought for hours - he told me that he didn't want to date me and never would, he doesn't know why he said those things/has been saying those things because they aren't true, but he still wants me in his life in an "intimate" (nonplatonic) way. He said maybe he told me all of the I love you stuff because he felt guilty or as a way to keep me in his life, but this just seems so bizarre given that I've stuck with him no matter where he was at (I've literally told him he doesn't have to commit to anything now, he needs to focus on helping himself) and I never pressure him to say those things, he comes out with them on his own.

I told him if there's absolutely no future I have to remove myself because I'm in love with him (I was super emotional and don't want that to happen, but how do I respond to "I didn't mean it when I said I love you all these times?"). He wouldn't let this happen so when things settled, he bounced back in minutes like he always does and he left that night kissing me, saying I love you, wanting to snuggle and saying he'd see me super soon. The next day I felt sort of hollow after the verbal abuse and I called him to try and say I didn't think being in his life was good for me. He was angry that I called and it was very brief - "he didn't accept that" and that we're gonna take a few weeks to live our lives and I should text him on Easter weekend when we'll both be home and can get together. So I've just been keeping my distance since then.

Does anyone know what this means? Have all of the "i love you/want to be with you" emotions been fake? He seemed really lucid and intense when he said them, but he seems so cold and detached when he says the opposite feelings so it's hard not to take those seriously as well. He has said that although he wants me in his life, he'd be sort of indifferent if I walked out of it because he doesn't "need" anyone - he'd feel the same way if it were his family. He also screamed that he hated me and that I made him want to kill himself/caused him so much pain - this hurt because I love him so much and all I've ever tried to do was support him. We had an amazing, loving relationship and were truly best friends. But if I cause him this much stress and annoyance, why doesn't he take the out? Why does he show such indifference and anger but refuse to "accept" me leaving? He literally came outside yelling on a busy sidewalk while I was waiting for an uber and crying, refusing to take me seriously when I said we couldn't see each other again but also telling me how weak and bothersome and exhausting I am at the same time. I'm just not sure what feelings are real and what he truly wants.

I've been a wreck for months now. I'm getting help, but my family and friends think I'm just subjecting myself to suffering. But it's not easy to walk away when I don't know what's real - I obsess about what his words really mean and analyze our interactions to try and understand what was real. I have so much anxiety thinking that something I said or did caused things to blow up and I ruined any chance of things working out. It's exhausting and I would love outside opinions because I feel like I'm so consumed by this that I can't see things rationally.

[allovertheplace]

Hi everyone,

I recently posted a (super long) explanation of my relationship and breakup w my BPD ex. In summary: dated BPD male for 3 years, he struggled with ocd and coming from a family with very destructive relationship models (parents violently hate each other, dad values partying/promiscuity), out of the blue he cheated on me with a BPD female and lived with her for 2 months, things fell apart between them, months later him and I reconnected.

Since then we've spent a lot of time together, from the very first day we acted like we were dating - being around his family, being affectionate/intimate, going out, visiting each other's schools, etc. But he has consistently sent mixed signals - he said he doesn't want commitment because he wants to live a lifestyle where he has the freedom to party and hook up with girls, but he's also broken down crying more than once telling me he loves me so much no matter what, he feels so happy when we're together, things feel like they did when we were dating but better, he wants to be in an open relationship, he told his father we were "together" etc. He'll facetime me every day one week and say he wants to see me, but then he'll disappear and detach and act completely indifferent or even like I bother him, like the things said the last time we hung out didn't happen.

This past weekend things felt different - it wasn't like the last time, which was amazing. I tried to approach the subject lightly, saying it was okay if his feelings changed again but I needed to know for my own sake. He got super angry, loud, and violent (not towards me, more like punching walls) and we fought for hours - he told me that he didn't want to date me and never would, he doesn't know why he said those things/has been saying those things because they aren't true, but he still wants me in his life in an "intimate" (nonplatonic) way. He said maybe he told me all of the I love you stuff because he felt guilty or as a way to keep me in his life, but this just seems so bizarre given that I've stuck with him no matter where he was at (I've literally told him he doesn't have to commit to anything now, he needs to focus on helping himself) and I never pressure him to say those things, he comes out with them on his own.

I told him if there's absolutely no future I have to remove myself because I'm in love with him (I was super emotional and don't want that to happen, but how do I respond to "I didn't mean it when I said I love you all these times?"). He wouldn't let this happen so when things settled, he bounced back in minutes like he always does and he left that night kissing me, saying I love you, wanting to snuggle and saying he'd see me super soon. The next day I felt sort of hollow after the verbal abuse and I called him to try and say I didn't think being in his life was good for me. He was angry that I called and it was very brief - "he didn't accept that" and that we're gonna take a few weeks to live our lives and I should text him on Easter weekend when we'll both be home and can get together. So I've just been keeping my distance since then.

Does anyone know what this means? Have all of the "i love you/want to be with you" emotions been fake? He seemed really lucid and intense when he said them, but he seems so cold and detached when he says the opposite feelings so it's hard not to take those seriously as well. He has said that although he wants me in his life, he'd be sort of indifferent if I walked out of it because he doesn't "need" anyone - he'd feel the same way if it were his family. He also screamed that he hated me and that I made him want to kill himself/caused him so much pain - this hurt because I love him so much and all I've ever tried to do was support him. We had an amazing, loving relationship and were truly best friends. But if I cause him this much stress and annoyance, why doesn't he take the out? Why does he show such indifference and anger but refuse to "accept" me leaving? He literally came outside yelling on a busy sidewalk while I was waiting for an uber and crying, refusing to take me seriously when I said we couldn't see each other again but also telling me how weak and bothersome and exhausting I am at the same time. I'm just not sure what feelings are real and what he truly wants.

I've been a wreck for months now. I'm getting help, but my family and friends think I'm just subjecting myself to suffering. But it's not easy to walk away when I don't know what's real - I obsess about what his words really mean and analyze our interactions to try and understand what was real. I have so much anxiety thinking that something I said or did caused things to blow up and I ruined any chance of things working out. It's exhausting and I would love outside opinions because I feel like I'm so consumed by this that I can't see things rationally.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[I Am Redeemed]

Hi, allovertheplace,

You have been through a really confusing and tough time, and that is super exhausting, mentally and emotionally.

You know, my guess is that all his emotions are real. PwBPD crave intimacy, yet fear it at the same time. It may be that he wants to be close to you, then when it happens, he becomes afraid of engulfment.

Here is some information that may be if benefit to you:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=281066.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=99725.0

These links explain a little more about fear of engulfment and the push/pull cycle.

It sounds like you are letting his emotions determine whether or not you continue the relationship. You asked about what he wants, because his messages are confusing and contradictory. He probably doesn't know what he wants, or what he wants changes with his roller coaster emotions.

What do you want? If he continues to bounce back and forth between hot and cold towards you, do you think you would want to continue to see him?

Blessings and peace to you,

Redeemed

[allovertheplace]

Thank you so much for your helpful response Redeemed. Seems to fit - until about 2 years in me/our relationship was the center of his world, my family became his family and we spent every spare moment together - we were both super attached. In hindsight I think that after he found a sense of his own separate life in college, that felt suffocating so he pulled back. Sometimes I pushed back or my feelings were hurt, but there'd be weeks between seeing each other (separate schools) so I didn’t think that I was crowding him, it was pretty standard stuff but I think the idea of a relationship restricting his freedom got to him - since we reconnected, he’s told me that blocking off time to hang out gives him anxiety because it prevents him from making last minute plans if they come up. I know he wants to be able to make whatever choices he wants and be with anybody he wants - even if he doesn’t end up using that freedom, I guess it’s the idea of hypothetically not being able to at any given moment that gets to him.


It’s a shame because we are so much less codependent now so a relationship of any kind could accommodate those feelings - we both have separate, individual lives and spent so much time in no contact that the attachment/need to always be connected has been broken. I want the best for him but I’ve told him a million times that I don’t care what life choices he makes, I let him do him - I'm not taking the nurturer role anymore.

The hot and cold hurts but if it’s just the commitment he struggles with, I can deal. Some weeks he’ll call every day and talk to me really affectionately, others I don’t exist, but I could handle that if I knew that the feelings were there and somewhat consistent -  being told that he loves me and wants me and then that he never meant those things at all and doesn’t see me that way really weighs on my confidence - I feel pretty inadequate especially considering he's potentially hooking up with other people. At the moment I’m anticipating texting him next week following up on how he wanted to hang out (I’m giving him space until then), and even though he told me to do that I’m afraid that he’ll go back on his word and accuse me of being clingy, which happens now.

It's such a big shift from how he was for years, but he's very anti-commitment and told me he switches between wanting an open relationship vs. wanting me in his life in the same way without commitment. He emphasizes that we don’t have any obligation to each other, the idea that he has some responsibility in supporting another person probably scares him because he’s said that he can’t take care of himself at this point. 
It seems like he’s embraced the idea of having nobody relying on him - he can isolate himself or reinvent his life with no consequences on others.

It makes me sad because it looks like he's breaking down: he’s high 24/7 (was never into drugs), never goes to class so he’s failing, and is very detached from everyone - he told me that if you keep everyone at arms length, losing people doesn't hurt. His parents are going through a nasty divorce and it looks like he’s mirroring a lot of his dad’s destructive behavior, but if he doesn't want to be vulnerable with me anymore I respect that.
 
My fear is that the “I love you” isn’t real and never was. When we broke up he said a lot of nasty things that he eventually told me he didn’t mean - one of them was that he didn’t think he ever loved me “in the right way,” he realized he always just looked at me as a friend. That confused me because we'd always had a very strong romantic aspect to our relationship - he took that back the day we reconnected and the way we've been hanging out seems to be evidence that things certainly go beyond friendly (although he says apparently he thinks it's normal to have sex and intimacy with friends). He has such strong emotional reactions to the intense I love you/want to be with you feelings, but days or weeks later he backtracks and says he loves me “in a way” (he follows up “I love you” with that caveat a lot) but we’re just friends (even though he doesn’t want to be platonic in any sense). A month ago he said we were together and expressed all of those feelings, but the next time i saw him (last weekend) he was far more distant - we still had that intimacy but it was like there was a boundary now - he was weird about wanting to take the heart emoji off of my contact name, for example, or he'd emphasize that he loved me in "a way" at any signs of affection to sort of back off or manage my expectations I guess. During our blow-out he told me that soon I'll realize that I'm not in love with him because I'm in love with "somebody that doesn't exist" and he hurts me so badly so how could I love him. Also that he can't be with "someone like me" (aka someone who comes from a good family model of love and loves him unconditionally). It's impossible to explain to him that that's not how it works.

Maybe he knows that he can’t trust those feelings will be consistent so he leaves some room for him to wiggle out? Maybe it’s a rationalization for not wanting to commit because it’s easier than facing the fear of engulfment and he has trouble articulating those feelings? But also if he really thinks of me only as a friend and is just confused, I don't want to try and explain that away and give myself false hope.

[allovertheplace]

During our blow-out he told me that soon I'll realize that I'm not in love with him because I'm in love with "somebody that doesn't exist" and he hurts me so badly so how could I love him. Also that he can't be with "someone like me" (aka someone who comes from a good family model of love and loves him unconditionally). It's impossible to explain to him that that's not how it works.

A note - when he said this it wasn't self-deprecating or sad like he thought he wasn't worthy of that - he thinks that the way I love/see these things is inherently flawed and uses that as logic for why we're "incompatible". It's more of an angry response saying that those things are something that's wrong with me.

[I Am Redeemed]

It sounds like he has self-esteem issues and he is projecting that onto you. With my stbx, it seemed that the more loving, forgiving, and understanding I was, the more he fostered contempt for me. He would treat me horribly (push) and then tell me that his "sick thinking" was telling him that he needed to push me away because if I loved him, there was obviously something wrong with me. Then he would make all sorts of promises that he would change and things would be different, and he would act like none of the hurtful stuff ever happened. I was back to being the best thing since sliced bread and he couldn't live without me (pull).

If he is using drugs almost all of the time, then his thinking and emotions are definitely being influenced by that. People with substance abuse issues are not trying to understand their emotions; they are trying to mask them.That adds another layer to the instability and emotional volatility. His brain is being pulled up and down by chemically induced dopamine, and what he really feels is probably just as elusive to him as it is to you.

Regardless of what he says...can you look at what he does and determine whether his behavior reflects that of someone who has the ability to love you the way you deserve to be loved?