Wondering What To Do Next, Move On or Keep Trying

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I have known this girl for around two years or so, now. We attend the same university class, and so we would see each other very often. At first, her and I didn't speak, however sometimes I could see that she was looking at me from a distance or laughing at my jokes (that I was making to other people). I suppose I didn't think anything of this, although I did find her attractive.

One day, I asked her if she wanted to go for a coffee. I'd taken her number from the university group chat and messaged her, asking. She said yes, which surprised me. The next day we went for a coffee and we got on very well; there was a lot of chemistry between us and it felt very much like a date.

The next day, I saw her at university and she didn't look at me or talk to me at all. This confused me because we'd just been for that coffee where things had gone well. I think I'd even messaged her and she hadn't responded, which added to the confusion.

A few days later, I managed to catch up with her again and we chatted. I asked her if she wanted to do something again and I remember her saying "as friends, right?" - I found that odd as it was clear this was more than a friendly thing, but I just went along with it.

We then started hanging out for about a week or so. It was literally an every day thing - hanging out at uni, and outside of uni. Suddenly, she became really distant.

I asked her if everything was OK. She then told me that she found the feelings she was having were 'overwhelming' and that she would be taking a step back from hanging out. That same night, I remember that she messaged me constantly until around 1am, which confused me as she'd just told me she'd be taking a step back.

The next day the messaging continued. I then told her that I'd like to carry on hanging out with her and that I understood she was apprehensive about becoming involved with someone, but that there was no pressure, just see how things go (which is what she previously said we could do).

At this point, she instantly became very irritated, and wrote a very long paragraph in which she was saying things like "I've already told you what I want" and "you can't change my mind" etc. Almost angry. She also insulted my personal hygiene as a reason she didn't want to continue - this wasn't true, as there wasn't an issue with my hygiene.

Anyway - so she distanced herself from me. Sometimes she would come into university and completely avoid me, even though we had a very small class, she would always manage to get through the day without even looking at me or talking to me. A couple of times I messaged her and she didn't respond.

I remember that sometimes she would message me asking about uni work after a period of not speaking, or come in and sit with me and act 'flirty' again, and I'd always think that she was 'ready' to be friends/hang out, but she would always distance herself again.

At the end of that first year, I went out with her and another classmate for food. The summer break began, and I remember messaging her a couple of different times, asking if she wanted to hang out. She didn't respond, which of course, was confusing.

Four months after I'd last attempted contact with her, she messaged me, apologising for not being in touch. I was hesitant to reply as it was clear she was doing this hot/cold act. In fact, I remember her clearly stating in that message that we could be friends. The next day I saw her at university, she ignored me. I messaged her telling her that I was slightly confused as to why she'd said that but hadn't spoken to me at uni - she told me that she had tried to (she hadn't) but that OK, we could be friends.

We gradually started spending more time together and eventually became intimate, and started dating. She put a lot of emphasis on the fact that it wasn't to become a 'serious' relationship, and that she didn't want to feel 'trapped'. We spent a lot of time together, both in and out of uni.

In December 2018, I remember that I hadn't been able to respond to a text for a few hours as my battery had died and I'd been stuck in an area where there were no buses. When I got home I contacted her and I'd just said "Sorry, just got in, my battery died" - as not replying to messages hadn't been a thing for either of us before, I didn't expect her to have such an extreme reaction to this.

She became very angry, almost interrogating me over the phone about why it had taken me so long to reply. She told me that I'd been lying, that I wasn't to be trusted, that I made it all up. The more I tried to explain that what had happened was true, the angrier she became. She was then angry for a few days, then broke up with me because of this.

I was quite surprised at this as we seemed to have been getting closer. I'd been invited to her family home for Christmas by her mother, for instance.

We then didn't speak for a few weeks. I had tried to contact her a few times and she didn't respond to anything. She accused me of harassing her, despite the fact that I was very mindful of how often I was contacting her. We didn't have university so I didn't see her at all. When university started up again, she came in and didn't speak to me for a few days.

We then got put into the same group project and ended up talking about work, then gradually hanging out again, then dating again. This continued until one day she had an anger outburst at me in front of her entire family, and broke up with me immediately after.

This anger outburst came after a period in which she appeared to be getting closer to me - she was messaging me, telling me how nice of a time she'd had with me, for example. I'd never really known her to do that in the entire time I'd known her. I'd also been spending time with her family again, and her mother even said "love you!" to me after saying goodbye, one evening.

After all of this, she said we could be friends, but it wasn't really working out for me, and I tried to discuss this with her. She became angry and began swearing, telling me she didn't want to know. We had an argument over the phone which was mostly her listing things she thought was wrong with me, and towards the end of the call became very angry and hung up, because we'd started talking about the incident at the sister's.

The next day she said we could "start again" and "start fresh", and that we could forget about everything. Since she said that, she has not responded to anything I've sent her, and has avoided me at university completely.

I haven't spoken to her for a month, and in that month I've tried to reach out, the last being a week ago when I sent her a song and asked her how her uni grades have been. There was no response.

[clvrnn]

I have known this girl for around two years or so, now. We attend the same university class, and so we would see each other very often. At first, her and I didn't speak, however sometimes I could see that she was looking at me from a distance or laughing at my jokes (that I was making to other people). I suppose I didn't think anything of this, although I did find her attractive.

One day, I asked her if she wanted to go for a coffee. I'd taken her number from the university group chat and messaged her, asking. She said yes, which surprised me. The next day we went for a coffee and we got on very well; there was a lot of chemistry between us and it felt very much like a date.

The next day, I saw her at university and she didn't look at me or talk to me at all. This confused me because we'd just been for that coffee where things had gone well. I think I'd even messaged her and she hadn't responded, which added to the confusion.

A few days later, I managed to catch up with her again and we chatted. I asked her if she wanted to do something again and I remember her saying "as friends, right?" - I found that odd as it was clear this was more than a friendly thing, but I just went along with it.

We then started hanging out for about a week or so. It was literally an every day thing - hanging out at uni, and outside of uni. Suddenly, she became really distant.

I asked her if everything was OK. She then told me that she found the feelings she was having were 'overwhelming' and that she would be taking a step back from hanging out. That same night, I remember that she messaged me constantly until around 1am, which confused me as she'd just told me she'd be taking a step back.

The next day the messaging continued. I then told her that I'd like to carry on hanging out with her and that I understood she was apprehensive about becoming involved with someone, but that there was no pressure, just see how things go (which is what she previously said we could do).

At this point, she instantly became very irritated, and wrote a very long paragraph in which she was saying things like "I've already told you what I want" and "you can't change my mind" etc. Almost angry. She also insulted my personal hygiene as a reason she didn't want to continue - this wasn't true, as there wasn't an issue with my hygiene.

Anyway - so she distanced herself from me. Sometimes she would come into university and completely avoid me, even though we had a very small class, she would always manage to get through the day without even looking at me or talking to me. A couple of times I messaged her and she didn't respond.

I remember that sometimes she would message me asking about uni work after a period of not speaking, or come in and sit with me and act 'flirty' again, and I'd always think that she was 'ready' to be friends/hang out, but she would always distance herself again.

At the end of that first year, I went out with her and another classmate for food. The summer break began, and I remember messaging her a couple of different times, asking if she wanted to hang out. She didn't respond, which of course, was confusing.

Four months after I'd last attempted contact with her, she messaged me, apologising for not being in touch. I was hesitant to reply as it was clear she was doing this hot/cold act. In fact, I remember her clearly stating in that message that we could be friends. The next day I saw her at university, she ignored me. I messaged her telling her that I was slightly confused as to why she'd said that but hadn't spoken to me at uni - she told me that she had tried to (she hadn't) but that OK, we could be friends.

We gradually started spending more time together and eventually became intimate, and started dating. She put a lot of emphasis on the fact that it wasn't to become a 'serious' relationship, and that she didn't want to feel 'trapped'. We spent a lot of time together, both in and out of uni.

In December 2018, I remember that I hadn't been able to respond to a text for a few hours as my battery had died and I'd been stuck in an area where there were no buses. When I got home I contacted her and I'd just said "Sorry, just got in, my battery died" - as not replying to messages hadn't been a thing for either of us before, I didn't expect her to have such an extreme reaction to this.

She became very angry, almost interrogating me over the phone about why it had taken me so long to reply. She told me that I'd been lying, that I wasn't to be trusted, that I made it all up. The more I tried to explain that what had happened was true, the angrier she became. She was then angry for a few days, then broke up with me because of this.

I was quite surprised at this as we seemed to have been getting closer. I'd been invited to her family home for Christmas by her mother, for instance.

We then didn't speak for a few weeks. I had tried to contact her a few times and she didn't respond to anything. She accused me of harassing her, despite the fact that I was very mindful of how often I was contacting her. We didn't have university so I didn't see her at all. When university started up again, she came in and didn't speak to me for a few days.

We then got put into the same group project and ended up talking about work, then gradually hanging out again, then dating again. This continued until one day she had an anger outburst at me in front of her entire family, and broke up with me immediately after.

This anger outburst came after a period in which she appeared to be getting closer to me - she was messaging me, telling me how nice of a time she'd had with me, for example. I'd never really known her to do that in the entire time I'd known her. I'd also been spending time with her family again, and her mother even said "love you!" to me after saying goodbye, one evening.

After all of this, she said we could be friends, but it wasn't really working out for me, and I tried to discuss this with her. She became angry and began swearing, telling me she didn't want to know. We had an argument over the phone which was mostly her listing things she thought was wrong with me, and towards the end of the call became very angry and hung up, because we'd started talking about the incident at the sister's.

The next day she said we could "start again" and "start fresh", and that we could forget about everything. Since she said that, she has not responded to anything I've sent her, and has avoided me at university completely.

I haven't spoken to her for a month, and in that month I've tried to reach out, the last being a week ago when I sent her a song and asked her how her uni grades have been. There was no response.

[clvrnn]

 

So, what I am wondering now is what to do. It seems that after conflict she distances for a while, although this latest occasion is the longest I've gone without speaking to her since we have been involved with each other.

I don't know if this is a final split, or whether this is just another of her silent periods. At times I feel like I should move on, and other times I feel like I should keep trying. I have no idea what she is feeling or thinking. We don't have university for four months, so I won't see her at all.

She is usually also very vocal in telling me to leave her alone or blocking me during conflict; this time she has done neither and has just remained silent. I don't know if that is a good or bad thing.

I have considered waiting for a longer stretch of time, say a month or so, and then trying again. But then I worry that she still won't respond, or she'll forget about me, or whatever.

I'm so sorry for the long OP, I just feel it was important to really get the story out and show the patterns in her behaviour and try and work out what to do next.

[clvrnn]

Also, if I were to contact her again, I'd have no idea how to structure anything. She does not respond well to discussions of feelings/emotions, often responding with immediate anger/irritation. She doesn't like mentions of things she has done that have upset/hurt/irritated me, either. I would find it hard to convey to her that I 'miss' her, or that I have feelings for her, or that I want us to become close again, for example.

Even when we are actually involved with each other, she shies away from talk about feelings unless she is in the mood to do it and has initiated the conversation herself, which isn't often. She would usually tend to be open about her feelings when she was at my house, in intimate settings. Obviously I don't have access to that side of her right now.

I also see that her behaviour is unlikely to change; she's been acting this way with and around me for two years, now. So, even if we were to become involved again, this would occur again.

I also find that she distances herself from me at every university break; this will be the third break in which she has distanced herself and 'cut off' contact with me. This of course would be the ideal time for us to spend time together, but she always distances. I have tried to understand why this may be, and at one point asked her - she said it's merely a coincidence, but it seems too regular to be a coincidence. I wonder if it's something to do with isolation or avoidance, perhaps of getting too close to me or something? I don't know.

All in all, though. I have never felt like this about someone. I truly do miss her and perhaps I am slightly hoping that this is just part of her push/pull, so that I don't have to face the full pain of it being over, but I just don't know.

[Cat Familiar]

You see clearly her pattern: I also see that her behaviour is unlikely to change; she's been acting this way with and around me for two years, now. So, even if we were to become involved again, this would occur again.


People show you who they are. Is this really what you want?

[clvrnn]

You see clearly her pattern: I also see that her behaviour is unlikely to change; she's been acting this way with and around me for two years, now. So, even if we were to become involved again, this would occur again.


People show you who they are. Is this really what you want?

I mean, no. I don't want to keep going through this every few months.

I feel things I haven't felt before. I feel a very strong pain in knowing that this person has something within their own mind that causes them to act this way, and that nothing I say or do seems to make a difference.

I keep thinking that if I were to come up with the right combination of words or actions that she'd stop doing this, but I know that isn't how it works.

I feel really lost and alone; I spent almost every day with this person and she's been a big presence in my life for two years, romantic involvement or not. We at university only have one year left; after that, I know I'm not going to see her at all.

I feel like it's some sort of failing on my part, too. Of all the people I could really fall for or get attached to, this seems to be the most unsuitable one.

[Cat Familiar]

You're really ahead in terms of understanding than of a lot of people who land here.

I keep thinking that if I were to come up with the right combination of words or actions that she'd stop doing this, but I know that isn't how it works.


Absolutely right.   It's taken years, maybe decades, for some of us to have this awareness.

I feel like it's some sort of failing on my part, too.

Yes, it's really easy to think it's somehow your fault. It isn't. You know that. But pwBPD will often blame us for feeling the way they do and so many of us are caretakers/codependent types that we easily will assume blame and responsibility that isn't ours.

Of all the people I could really fall for or get attached to, this seems to be the most unsuitable one.


This is the key question to ask yourself. For some reason, you are attracted to someone who is unattainable. What would happen if you fell for someone with whom you could have a healthy relationship?

[clvrnn]

You're really ahead in terms of understanding than of a lot of people who land here.

Hmm. Maybe, only because I learnt about all of this the first time she did this. It still doesn't stop me from thinking that there's some way around this, that if I just say this or that she will finally come around, and stop pushing me away.

it's really easy to think it's somehow your fault. It isn't. You know that. But pwBPD will often blame us for feeling the way they do and so many of us are caretakers/codependent types that we easily will assume blame and responsibility that isn't ours.

I do think perhaps I did something wrong, wasn't 'enough' for her, etc. She blamed me for things going wrong, especially with the anger outburst. She told me that it was my fault, that I'd  up. I believed it. I still do, sometimes.

is the key question to ask yourself. For some reason, you are attracted to someone who is unattainable. What would happen if you fell for someone with whom you could have a healthy relationship?

I don't know what would happen. I can't see myself getting into a healthy relationship. I never seem to be interested in people who seem 'normal' - there was one woman in my class at university who made it clear she wanted to date me. She pursued me and I turned her down because I wanted to date pwBPD, despite being in the midst of yet another 'push' where I was being ignored and avoided. It all just felt unremarkable and boring. I think that was partly due to who this woman was, I just wasn't attracted to her anyway, and the overbearing nature of her pursuit just put me off her.

[Cat Familiar]

I can't see myself getting into a healthy relationship. I never seem to be interested in people who seem 'normal'

Do you have a parent or sibling who has a personality disorder? I often think when people aren't interested in "normal" potential partners that there's a FOO (family of origin) reason for being comfortable with chaotic behavior that would drive other people away, who had grown up in emotionally healthy families.

That certainly was true for me. My mother was a pwBPD and crazy behavior just seemed "like family" so I ended up marrying not one, but two husbands with BPD (not at the same time--   ). I remember dating lots of "nice guys" who seemed "boring" and I gravitated toward the "bad boys" who were exciting and unpredictable.

[clvrnn]

Do you have a parent or sibling who has a personality disorder? I often think when people aren't interested in "normal" potential partners that there's a FOO (family of origin) reason for being comfortable with chaotic behavior that would drive other people away, who had grown up in emotionally healthy families.

That certainly was true for me. My mother was a pwBPD and crazy behavior just seemed "like family" so I ended up marrying not one, but two husbands with BPD (not at the same time--   ). I remember dating lots of "nice guys" who seemed "boring" and I gravitated toward the "bad boys" who were exciting and unpredictable.

My grandmother would be the person who would fit this description. She shows a lot of signs of a PD, although which one I don't know, I would say it is NPD. She has been constantly emotionally and psychologically abusive. My mother was a lot like myself in that she was very gentle, softly spoken - probably codependent, . My GM would control all of her children - my aunts and uncles, and my mum - and I can remember so many incidents of her doing things that were highly abusive.

Usually I don't think people would spend so much time around their grandparents, but my family seem to have this dynamic where she is very much the matriarch and everyone goes to her house often, etc. As a child I was always around her, and even as an adult, my aunts and uncles still seem to live their lives around her. I do not, as I recognise the abuse and don't want to be a part of it.

The last time I saw her, she erupted into an unprovoked rage and blamed me for my mother dying, swearing and being very hostile. Within twenty minutes, she was attempting to hug me and offering me whatever I wanted from the refrigerator, which made me feel sick as it was quite clearly abusive, and I didn't react.

[clvrnn]

I just... since she broke up with me again, I have really struggled to comprehend everything she's said and done. The language she used when she did it, saying things like "you can't change my mind" or "I'm no longer interested" - usually, if a person says that to me I have no reason to believe that they might change their mind, or that with time they'd go back on things. She has used all of those types of phrases each time she's distanced herself from me.

I remember even once I was in a coffee shop with her and she said that her and I would never happen again - a few days later she was at my house, and we had started things again. Or, one other time, she told me that she needed time and space to herself - within a few days she was at my house! I don't know how to not think she'll come back.

Even on this occasion, after she'd said we could be friends - she started placing very strict boundaries, telling me that we could only see each other at university. When I asked if we could do stuff away from uni, as I liked hanging out with her and there wasn't much to do at uni () she said that she didn't want to, because we'd end up dating again. So, to say that after she'd said her feelings had changed? Then to me, that suggests that her feelings hadn't changed, after all..

I feel like this contact I want to make with her is driven by all of this; in the past I've initiated contact and she's responded, and we've gone back to normal. If only I could just catch her at the right moment, in the right mood, she'd respond.

My own codependent tendencies have often made it hard for me to move on from break ups or romantic involvements, but this one feels as if I actually have a reason to be stuck in this hopeful mindset with this person.

I wish there was some sort of guideline I could follow, or that she would just communicate with me, or that she had controlled her anger at the sister's, or that I hadn't even gone there that day, and then maybe none of this would even be happening.

[Cat Familiar]

It sounds like you're answering your own question in the title to this post.

Should you get back together with her, how do you see this relationship evolving in the future?

[clvrnn]

It sounds like you're answering your own question in the title to this post.

Should you get back together with her, how do you see this relationship evolving in the future?

I don't know. I would have been happy to just keep going as things were and see where we end up, but she doesn't? She seems to be unable to go a very long period of time without doing this. We only have a short period of time at university left, and once that's finished I'm doubtful she'll remain in constant contact - the university is a crutch, if anything. If it wasn't for that, I don't think we would have ever even evolved into dating.

I think if anything, the contact I want to make is to test whether this is permanent, to see if she'd respond after letting some time pass. I can't see the dynamic of this relationship changing, though. In the past when I've tried to talk to her about how this makes me feel, she's just said things like "nothing you say will change the way I act" or "you knew who I was when you got involved with me".

Sometimes she seems upset that she is a 'horrible person', and has actually cried in front of me, telling me that all she does is upset people and hurt them. Other times she seems quite proud of being 'horrible', saying that if people don't like it, they can 'get lost' and she doesn't care.

I don't know. No matter how many times I go over this, I still don't know how to communicate with her or understand what's going on.

[Cat Familiar]

I would have been happy to just keep going as things were and see where we end up, but she doesn't?

Lots of us who had that philosophy when we were younger, ended up getting married. Be careful what you wish for.

She seems to be unable to go a very long period of time without doing this. We only have a short period of time at university left, and once that's finished I'm doubtful she'll remain in constant contact - the university is a crutch, if anything. If it wasn't for that, I don't think we would have ever even evolved into dating.

What about her makes you want to be in a relationship with her?

I think if anything, the contact I want to make is to test whether this is permanent, to see if she'd respond after letting some time pass. I can't see the dynamic of this relationship changing, though. In the past when I've tried to talk to her about how this makes me feel, she's just said things like "nothing you say will change the way I act" or "you knew who I was when you got involved with me".

Can you imagine being married to her? Having children with her?

Sometimes she seems upset that she is a 'horrible person', and has actually cried in front of me, telling me that all she does is upset people and hurt them. Other times she seems quite proud of being 'horrible', saying that if people don't like it, they can 'get lost' and she doesn't care.

Are you hoping that your influence on her will help her to be a better person?

I don't know. No matter how many times I go over this, I still don't know how to communicate with her or understand what's going on.

Is part of the challenge trying to figure out how to make this all work?

[clvrnn]

Well I've written out an email but haven't sent it. I used some of the techniques in the DEARMAN method, and tried to keep the focus on rebuilding a friendship, speaking about positive things, not blaming, etc. I haven't sent the email.

I suppose I don't know if it's just going to make me look needy, obsessed, etc. I was going to wait and contact her in a few months, but I think by that point it would be even worse, in terms of me looking, at that late point, that I hadn't moved on. And I guess by that point I myself may have moved on significantly, too. I feel as if there's a window of time that's closing in, almost.

[clvrnn]

in answer to your questions Cat, I don't know if I could imagine myself married to her. I had hoped, at the very beginning, that I would be able to have some sort of influence on her and show her that there was nothing to be frightened of, in terms of love and dating. Perhaps there is also a slight challenge in that I'd like to stumble across the magical combination of words or actions that makes her want to stop doing all of this.

[Cat Familiar]

Perhaps there is also a slight challenge in that I'd like to stumble across the magical combination of words or actions that makes her want to stop doing all of this.

Don't we all wish that we could find the secret Enigma key? 

[clvrnn]

After a lot of thought, I spent some time writing an email in which I expressed how I understood her difficulties with closeness, and mentioning a lot of positive things to do with our dynamic, and how I really valued her as a person, and that I'd really like to resolve the conflict and move forwards. I tried to apply the methods in the DEARMAN method, as much as I could.

This was really a final attempt at contact, it contained pretty much everything I needed/wanted to say, and I suppose I had hoped it would 'work', in that it would trigger a 'recycle' or at least a response of some sort, even if hostile.

There has been no response, and I think there is unlikely to be one. I think now it's very clear to me that I have been removed from this person's life, and I suppose I'm hurting because of that. Because of the closeness that this person and I shared, and all the times she would tell me how much she connected with me, and how strong her feelings were getting.

The very sudden way in which she ended things and blamed me for her anger, a day after things were fine, if not better than they have ever been between us, then breaking up with me and telling me that we were "dysfunctional and toxic" - when there hadn't even been a problem. I still have problems understanding and processing it, and I suppose maybe that's why I'm still, or still was, hoping there'd be a reconnection.

I feel very strange now, as if I know it's final. I also dread seeing this person at university in September (even though that's a while away) because I think it'll probably re-open these feelings, and I''ll probably continue to be ignored.

I just feel very abandoned and helpless, now. She had said we could start again and forget about the conflict, then just stopped talking to me. I have searched my mind for something I may have said or done that's caused her silence, because it feels like a silence that's issued when you've done something to someone.