My experience here and the broadening picture of my RS.

[Sandb2015]

I am conflicted and most likely tolerating something I haven't started to fully realize.

First, I do so much reflection/self-reflection and reading here and everywhere, compassionate and not, all info is welcomed and some is so specific about the damage and says< "run for your life".  Here and other places we find compassion (I do want a life with my pwBPD) and it fits what I feel even as I get stronger.  I do have to say that the other places that exist for info also fits at times.

I am noticing a cycle that I denied at first and now I'm not denying it and it s*cks.

If I stay away from the board, I feel comfortably peaceful in my own mind.  Writing here just makes the shaking start...I'm I suppressing stuff, I think so.  The reality is here as bad as it could be...I will stay with the mind that I'm not going to give up, but as I gave up MYSELF before, I'm getting me back.

I still shake when I write here...

[formflier]

   

Sorry about the shaking and experiences that have led to it.

I'm wondering if you took a quick walk when the shaking started...think it would help?

There is an interesting conundrum for people like you on the conflicted board (and in general)

If pwBPD know you won't "run for your life"...they seem to be much bolder with their shenaningans.

If pwBPD actually realize and believe you will leave (which they don't want)...they will behave much better.

Can you think of ways to apply this conundrum to your situation?

FF

[Sandb2015]

formflier,

First, I need to say that this board ultimately gives me peace, but as a child who believes in the boogeyman (my pwBPD experience),I must look under the bed or in the closet to confront.  It is my own fear I am confronting and all the junk that comes along with it.  

As time goes on and I take breaks from the board and return here, as I read and write, the confrontation begins...the fact that I may have been denying that my loved one has a mental illness and it may or not be the thing that determines if I can have her for my life in a way where I can enjoy life and her as well.

Formlier,

Yes, conundrum...I'm guessing that staying away, cutting contact but not NC would be the way to go.  I send texts knowing I won't get a response, I'm not blocked and her sister says she still loves me, time will tell.

I just think that it is a "game" if put into context, If I do or don't do, a certain response will occur.

I also have to be prepared to be wrong and I must struggle to think of the "long game" and not the "right now".

I've let her go many times, mostly after she was with someone else and it's haunting me during this specific time apart.  When we are back together, I accept and want to move to greener fields but the illness I denied partially tells me this is going to happen and I can't do much about it than get stronger mentally, spiritually and emotionally.

She may go on like this forever without help and stats predict it doesn't decrease in intensity as someone ages unless they have the means to be alone and the world doesn't notice.

I want her attention, yes, I want to be back for the purpose of trying to facilitate help.  If love is real/sincere and it's questioned ad infinitum here I will know.

I want her back, not because I'm playing on her fear which appears as a course of action, I have boundaries when we are together, I speak of things that I was afraid to before out of fear which as decreased within me.  I think my strength is showing and that too is a cause for her to maybe use control to bring me back into a fluid and pliable me, to bring fear back.

I have to have more significant boundaries, if she thinks I'm not good enough or she thinks there is something better out there, in her condition, she is doomed rs wise.

I will reach out less...I will not tolerate being second choice regardless of love and dreams of growing old with her...I feel like boundaries should start from the outside, large and become smaller.  These very important boundaries will prove to eventually break or make the potential for a "better behaved" pwBPD.

Is it time for me to play on her fears? Little or no reaching out for now. There is a wedding I'm going to crash that she begged me to go to with all her coworkers that have little insight into her personal life other than them gravitating towards me over the last 4 years...she sent the response back before she broke up with the temp guy and begged me when she reached out to me, it didn't matter if her was her invite or not, I was going.  Now, we aren't speaking/communicating.  I'm planning with her Master/Mentor who will be at the wedding  to let me know if she's there alone or with someone...if she is with someone, it's goodbye.  If she is alone, I will crash (it's okay, everyone knows me and doesn't know about our rs problems as she is so secretive). I will sneak over for a slow dance and see what happens...only slight hopeful expectations, also because of past experience, me popping up can bring tears of joy to her or threats and anger.  I'm not a scene maker and can leave quicker than arriving or hidding somewhere until a slow song comes on.

I've been guilty of controlling as a codependent person which really manifested itself in this rs and that has taken it's toll on her also, that is clear, some of my personal boundaries will help her also, less stress for her.

At this point, I will take healthier opportunities without persuing her to justify my fears of what I can't ultimately control.

Please pick me apart, no more diplomacy, it's time for the jackhammer.

I have trouble seeing it the way you present it and IF, she is fearful of losing me forever, she seems to be doing all the right things to make that happen...I question that particular issue for some reason.

Thank you formflier.

[formflier]

formflier,
 
Please pick me apart, no more diplomacy, it's time for the jackhammer.
 

RA (Radical Acceptance) is a process.  Not an easy one.  I often get lulled into "normalcy" and "forgetting" there is a big mental illness in my relationship.  A dysregulation brings reality back.

Listen..my letting go comments are much more about an attitude than an action.  pwBPD are very perceptive...extremely perceptive.

They will pick up on the change that you are "ok" with distance...

What would that look like for you?

FF

[Sandb2015]

Thank you formflier,

I have the book and understand the concept...

Attitude versus action, yes, doable and that makes sense.  Essentially giving the impression that "whatever", I've become less prone to run, jump and all of that...which I have already.

I should start stepping back and see what happens and accept what will happen no matter what, correct?

[formflier]

I should start stepping back and see what happens and accept what will happen no matter what, correct?

That's one way to look at it...

Listen, I don't know much yet about the particulars of your relationship, so I'll make some comments about the "attitude" that I try to bring to my relationship.

Boundaries are important.  So..you have to accept that people will control things inside their boundaries and you have to accept that...not matter what (since you don't get a vote)

However...YOU do NOT have to accept what happens inside your boundaries (especially if someone other than you is trying to decide).  These are your decisions, so if it doesn't work for you..you change it.

Unapologetically. 

Your pwBPD will likely claim that you are "doing this to them"..when in reality you are doing it for you.  The new "attitude" is that you will do your stuff...without being manipulated or apologizing.

Up until now my guess is they do crazy stuff and you figure out how to react.

Can you see the brave new world of you taking care of you..and letting them react to that?

Does that look like "nuance" to you or does it look bigger?

Anyway...I do me.  I live my values, live a life that I enjoy and I "leave the door open" for my wife to come along.  If she doesn't...it's disappointing for sure, but I go on with things and I don't personalize it.

Here is the thing, yes it might appear "I don't care" (I actually do), but I hope you can see that "caring so much" you alter your life for a pwBPD is BAD...and FEEDS THE BPD monster.

Now that my wife gets it that I'm going to with or without her..she chooses to come along most of the time. 

What is your goal in your relationship?

FF
,

[Sandb2015]

I get it and that's where my codependency comes into play which I am examining to no end in every way.

It's the toughest part, we have turmoil and don't live together presently.  I do see the "shrug" concept to letting them reflect on my behavior, which is willingness to let go.

She is fragile to say the least, that may have the opposite effect I understand.

The fear of a real shrug and losing her is something that inevitably must come anyway if I have stronger boundaries.  I can't control what happens, only myself.

I want a life with her and not like the way it was.  Love, promises, chaos, damage, emotional abuse, love, tears, promises, lies...sounds like BPD.

If she has a connection to me it will come even as I back away, If not, I will not jump into the fire.

[babyducks]

Please pick me apart, no more diplomacy, it's time for the jackhammer.

Hi Sandb2015,

One of my favorite quotes is from Yung Pueblo and it says this:

While in the midst of serious internal growth, respect your need to rest.

So I am going to suggest a less jackhammer, more be nice to Sandb2015 approach.    One of the recognizable truths of these relationships we find ourselves in, is that we pick people who match our level of relationship maturity, skill and vision.

That can be frustrating.   Upsetting.   Drive us to fix everything immediately or blame something totally.    

The radical acceptance that FF was talking about upstream is a process.     It includes every part of the relationship.    Not just her stuff.    Not just your stuff.   All the life stuff.

My favorite RA quote is:

Acceptance is to experience without defense or distress.

Acceptance I think is to experience with as much calmness as we can marshal, understanding we all work within limits.     Using highly charged emotional language, is usually not productive to increasing acceptance, radical or not.

How do you think things would play out if you could maintain an wisemind calm centered approach?

'ducks

[Sandb2015]

babyducks,

Thank you. 

The wise mind centered approach involves a lot of letting go...it let's things take a "natural" course.  That "letting go" is the key it seems.  Realizing I may have to let go completely means I may lose the thing that keeps me so unbalanced/enriched at times.

The struggle is so severe.  Loving someone that can just snap and move on, letting go to a point that they may move on and the courage to let them...

The indifference whether intentional or "part of the disorder" is beyond tough regardless of it's origin.  I make excuses and say it's her issues or the disorder and other times I see that it exists nevertheless.

The wisemind says step back into myself while being conflicted with my want to control the outcome.  The idea that I can somehow dictate through determination, the outcome, running to stay relevant which has been my MO for a few months now.

I have slowed down so much and I look for signs to hold on and let go equally, I find them both.

We are talking about acceptance of what is, what isn't and what may or may not happen.

I'm afraid I know myself so well that if I do come to the devastating conclusion that I can't take this anymore because of my own issues AND her behavior, I will cut out any possibility of a solid reconciliation at a later date.  That may be my fear of letting go perhaps more than my fear of being let go.

Letting go to varying degrees seems to be the reoccurring theme here.

The answer to your last question...I think she would eventually see herself seeking me out.  That is how I would see things playing out, would I even want her then?

Thank you babyducks.

[babyducks]

The wisemind says step back into myself while being conflicted with my want to control the outcome.  The idea that I can somehow dictate through determination, the outcome, running to stay relevant which has been my MO for a few months now.

Ooh I really like this one.    Can we look at it a bit more?   For me, "letting go" has multiple meanings.   The one I am thinking of here is letting go of trying to manufacture an outcome.

Letting go of manufacturing an outcome works for me by taking me out of the future.   The possible outcome that may happen weeks from now or months from now or never at all.    It puts me more in the now.    And the now is usually less complicated then this manufactured outcome I am trying to cook up.

Letting go of manufacturing an outcome often means I don't have to figure out in advance what I am going to feel about X happening.   Or Y happening.    Also a plus.

Letting go of dictating an outcome give me the opportunity to experience my actual emotions in the moment while trusting that my wisemind can do that comfortably.

what I found for myself is;  that this was such a significant relationship for me, such an intense emotional experience that it will always be a part of me.   I've come to believe that is a good thing.

I'm afraid I know myself so well that if I do come to the devastating conclusion that I can't take this anymore because of my own issues AND her behavior, I will cut out any possibility of a solid reconciliation at a later date.  That may be my fear of letting go perhaps more than my fear of being let go.

That's interesting.     Have you ever heard the old phrase, how we describe something reveals more about us that what we are attempting to describe?

Can I ask, how would you feel, inside yourself, if your comment read a little more like this?

I'm afraid I know myself so well that if I do come to the devastating conclusion that I can't take this anymore because of my own issues AND her behavior, I will cut out any possibility of a solid reconciliation at a later date.  That may be my fear of letting go perhaps more than my fear of being let go.

When I read that (both versions) I am trying to balance in my head the desire for love and the fear of not having it.

Or more simply put.   No one ever ever loved me the way my Ex did.    It filled a huge need in me.   One I didn't know I had.    I had a desire for that love.    A fear of not having it.    A bigger fear of not feeling I deserved it.    A bigger bigger fear of walking away from it.    It really was no accident that my partner and I hooked up the way we did.   Boy did our fears, and needs and desires line up perfectly there for a while.

I think for me the question was if I let go of today's desires, fears and needs from this relationship can I be okay with what I find on the other side of all that.

'ducks

[formflier]

How many "recycles" have their been in the relationship?

FF

[Sandb2015]

babyducks,

Thank you.

Manufacturing the outcome.  Yes, I want her, us, I want to keep what we have and it grow to what it could be so badly, that is what I do.

I project, I envision, I think of later...

The here and now are my ball of confusion, to separate today and the maybe when today is as confusing as tomorrow can be.

Is she gone, is there a chance?  How do I separate myself from my want?

Yes babyducks, I have a fear of letting go.  If I let go, I see the vault door closing forever.  That would be my doing, not her and I need to seriously evaluate this thought.  What will push me there, why will I make that choice when I can go a different way and just "chill out" and let things take a course?

Getting in the now is where I need to be.  We lived together for 3 years, together for about 4 and she is reaching a milestone (crisis) of her own issues which had a lot to do with this, son going away to school (tremendous guilt with how she has raised him), elderly overseas parents that will need to come here and her brother and sister are aloof, her imagined impending old age and desperation to be successful asap because she compares herself to others and she is way behind (somewhat wealthy friends) and the list grows.

I have my own issues mostly financial that lead to further issues between us...I understand that love doesn't pay the bills...Right now I'm living at my Aunts on a Futon with twice the commute and the same job that is barely covering my own expenses which are minimal.  It's tough on me, that's my situation, she has her OWN situation.

What is the now?

formflier,

Thank you.

Well, after about 2 years together, I was thrown out as the end of every episode/dysregulation and I went back and was expected to, sheepishly asked to come back countless times, mostly because of my chasing+her unspoken and childlike guilt or expectation.

Since 12/19,  If recycling meant her gravitating towards me, being with me, asking me back and changing her mind, many times with scenarios such as when her son goes to college next year we will be together, or part time now, or I hate you, wish I never met you, don't contact me, I don't want to see you, I miss you, where are you, I can't believe I still love you.  Crazy making and a lesser me would have committed himself, I almost did.  Now I'm better and the seesaw is a little heavier on my side now with no chance of going down.

The process of getting stronger ...the letting go...I don't want it to be forever...all of the things that I'm expecting to move along with the "stronger" aren't catching up.

I guess we have to distinguish hard and soft recycle if there is such a thing.


I do have some manageable depression and self esteem issues right now mostly due to my own financial situation, I am juggling and confusing the two or intertwining them.

I am letting the hopelessness with work bleed into the yuck regarding my rs.

I've been through some devastating stuff and I have managed to stay strong (little baggage) and I was at my best when I met her and now my negativity with work and relationship is mixed in a s*itty salad.

[formflier]

OK...can you work on a number for how many times in 4 years there has been a we are done moment and then back together.  I'll call that a recycle.

Perhaps another one is how many times have you guys stopped living together and then moved back in together.

It's good to have a goal of getting back together.  Goals, properly "held" can give you motivation for YOUR life. 

The best way to "catch" a gal is to get your life in order and be a "catch".  (think about that for a moment)

FF

[babyducks]

sounds like maybe you guys have been in a super charged push/pull cycle for a while now and both of you are struggling with it?    tell me if I got that right or not.

in highly charged, high conflict, emotionally intense relationships there is always a lot of drama on the table.    and the drama fuels more drama.     You have heard of the Karpman triangle right?

when things get this emotionally reactive, smaller items take on huge significance, a missed text, a blocked Facebook page, a heated phone call.   it all looks like a raging river.

if you want to continue to explore this you might want to walk things back to calmer waters.    specifically work to change your thinking to a wisemind centered approach.

I didn't hear from her today.   that means I will never hear from her again and she has gone off to do XYZ.    Or.   Maybe it means she has taken the day off because she has a cold and wants to nap.   Or.   Maybe it means nothing.      try to relax your thinking from vault doors slamming into I'm not sure what's going on here.

I used manufacturing outcomes and manufacturing certainty because when things get overwhelming and intense, all of us try to manufacture certainty.   when there is too much ambiguity to deal with I will manufacture certainty by following my thinking down one carved in granite, cast in stone line and not budging from it.

make any sense?

'ducks

[Sandb2015]

formflier,

At least 20 times where my stuff was packed in my car, I leave for work and go see her at her job after I leave mine and she give the sheepish expectations of going home together, Didn't sleep elsewhere and happily went "home".

Mixed in with that, there were two or three times where I made the decision to go to my Aunt's home because it was just a little over the top and I thought it was the prudent thing to do, It could have been a bedtime episode at 1 am and didn't want to go to a hotel or some off day and there wouldn't be a meet up at her job after.

Id say five, nothing more than a few days and we would be communicating and she threatened to come get me if I didn't return.

12/19 was the end of us living together, reconnect for a day or two, excuses, blame, intimacy, again, cut and back on and off.  Somewhere in March, I found out she was "with" someone and she admitted it while still clinging to me at times and she called me after breaking it off the end of March, very beginning of April.  She pleaded to get back together and I said yes, it dissolved a few days later into this...me texting simple things, no response.  This may be the longest time she has cut contact or not responded even though I'm not blocked.

If I have to fight for my love back and sparkle to be attractive to someone that declared I was the love of her life to everyone and now I need to "do something" to regain that lost title, she can go jump in a lake.

babyducks,

I understand that she has many real life stresses now, I understand completely.  In December, she said she just wants to concentrate on her rs with her son and doesn't want anybody, she wants to be alone, very shortly after, she started dating and sleeping with someone that she feels so guilty about and refers to herself as a slut, never looked for forgiveness from me, just a projection of her guilt onto me for doing that.

Anyway, that wasn't a hurdle for me as long as we were together and as was spelled out compassionately to me a while ago on one of my posts, we weren't together which was true, she was free to do as she pleased.

She lied to me about what her intentions were and that may never be cleared up, I accept the truth as to what happened.

Calmer waters...my texts are as simple as good morning, have a great day and good night, all benign.  No questions to force an answer. Just reaching out a little.  I guess again, I'm trying to stay "alive" to her and it's part of my own shenanigans.

Yes, of course! The overwhelming uncertainty is making me come to conclusions.  I want calmer waters for her, for me and us.

I do have to draw the line somewhere and I thought I've done that and again, get caught up in forgiveness and acceptance and LOVE.

There is a wedding next Sunday 4/28, she sent the invite back before we "got back together" briefly.  She begged me to go and I have a feeling she asked the other guy, not sure what happened because she said she'd understand if I didn't want to go, but please please please and I said yes.  I will work out that I go just for a slow dance unless she has a date, it will be a surprise and I won't show if she is with a date.  Her coworkers like me better and have joked about it tongue in cheek many times, so no problem me showing up and trying to just connect for the last time maybe...if she is there with a guy, she's introducing him to her inner sanctum and that is a big deal as she is so secretive about her personal life outside of home and work is a big deal.

If she is dating or there with some guy, that will be it!  I can't do this, I shouldn't have to.  No matter what she is "going through", I will not be there when she has had some ridiculous short term rs as she has had 10 times over the years, after her husband, I was the only one to get past a 60/90 day mark.

There is some reason she isn't contacting me...dating, NPD silent treatment, just a game, it has to end somewhere...I'm not so lost in these things as I was, I was out of my mind, I'm not anymore.

We are either going to s*it or get off the pot, one of us will be making this determination through inner workings or outward actions.

Not granite, floating around isn't healthy for anyone and I'm not going to care much that she has another 50 doomed short term rs later if she keeps running away harder and harder without staying connected somehow.

I know when she is pushing, I am pulling.  The harder she pushes, the harder I pull, this will only stop when my cycle of pull stops and see what happens, I know even my harmless texts are a form of pulling, that's clear and I'm expecting something and I should just stop.

She is intentionally not responding and that is a response of sorts which lead to a reaction from me...isn't this fun?

I get upset or lost in my emotions when I type too much here, it's necessary and I hate it.

I'm going to read the hell out of WISEMIND tonight!

Calmer waters bring a sense of limbo...

My pseudo meltdown is giving me the idea to throw the whole thing in the garbage...I think that is what she is doing, both of us as a solution so difficult to deal with.  The issue is I don't really suffer from a mental illness, some issues as all of us, but not a potential disorder.

We are doing similar things I guess.  So far I'll be the stronger one if I don't have to suffer as before.

[babyducks]

Yung Pueblo Sandb2015,

"when in the midst of serious internal growth, respect your need for rest."

you don't need to figure this all out today.    calmer waters do bring a sense of limbo.  and that's okay for a little while.

this wedding?    do you even want to go?    do you want to see these two people be married?  do you like them?   respect them?   want to share a special day with them?

is this how you want this to play out?    if you go and she is there alone, and you have a slow dance will that help you feel secure about the relationship?   will that help advance the relationship into more healthy communication?  is going to a very romantic event, loaded with symbols and meaning okay for you?     I don't know.   you tell me.    

I'm not saying you should do this but what happens if you send a text, say something like 'we talked about the wedding on 4/28, this is what I would like to do about the wedding___fill__in__the_blank_________   please let me know'.

yup.  one of you is going to   or get off the pot.    that's how these things typically unfold.     the trick of it is Sandb2015 is doing that in ways that afford you and her the greatest possible amount of peace of mind and potential for the future.     what ever the future may be.

[Sandb2015]

babyducks,

Thank you.

Yes regarding the wedding, I've been close with them and closer with the people attending.  I won't give a heads up regarding me going or the wedding at all.  I have every intention of stopping my unreturned texts for a little peace very soon, it's a big step...hers and mine.

I've put myself in plenty of spots to be totally rejected and have and most of the time not.

She may reach out to me prior to the wedding and say she is going with so and so or, she may ask me.  If she doesn't, I'm going.  I eat lunch with her mentor every week and that started in December, he is a wiseman to say the least, unbiased and cares about my well being more as he knows her treatment of me.  He will be informing me as to whether or not she is alone, simple.  If she is there with someone, it's such a huge statement and I will not pursue a rs with her anymore, her coworkers are people we have gone to many private functions with, spend New Years together in the mentors home with his family.  She has trained there closely with everyone, she's an instructor also, close knit and her being with someone else is really a big thing that I don't have to contend with at all.

I'm going to show up for a slow dance only, not to sit or be a nuisance or force anything, I will leave quietly if she wants and since she didn't invite me again if that's how it works out, so be it. I would show up at the reception, not the church, I won't force my presence, a quick slow dance and see.  None of her coworkers are aware that we aren't together, her secret for now anyway...  They ask and she gives a bs story as to my whereabouts, I would be there 3 or 4 nights a week to meet and go "home".

It will help me with my detachment, not attachment unless she is open to it...we'll see.

Under the circumstances, it may have do something for us, I hope it will.  This is a plan and like all plans, it may fall apart, anything can happen in a week.  I know what I'm setting myself up for if this gets worse...it's ok, it has to be either way for me.

[Sandb2015]

Letting go is so hard. Replacing something positive with the void while being grateful for this opportunity to be better in every way is a necessary journey that will bring me to the best place I’ve never been before.

[Sandb2015]

So one week of no responses to texts, very simple texts.

Is this a form of “silent treatment”?

I know I’m not blocked.

Would anyone be kind enough to explain what they think is going on?

I expected nasty replies of all sorts, nothing. I would expect to be blocked as she has done on and off so many times as a response.

I haven’t asked any questions to invoke a response yet.

[formflier]

Is this a form of “silent treatment”?
 

Would anyone be kind enough to explain what they think is going on?
 

Perhaps it is ST..perhaps it is more about her, than about you and your relationship.

I found this thought very helpful. 

"When someone is letting you know they don't want to communicate with you...believe them and go on living your life.

I wish I could take credit for that advice, but I can assure you applying that advice has made my life much simpler and my relationship better. 

Sure...there are times it's disappointing to NOT have communication when YOU want it.  That's your disappointment and it's yours to care for (vice control someone else to care for it).

Same thing...her choice to NOT communicate is likely mainly about her choices, not really something you can or should try to control.

FF

[Sandb2015]

formflier,

Thank you.

Her “not wanting to communicate” was more aggressive before.

Yes, it’s more about her than me I imagine.

Her first reaction was to block me and then we’d go to email.

This is the first time she’s behaved this way.

I flirt with the idea that getting blocked would have been better.

[formflier]

Her first reaction was to block me and then we’d go to email.

 

I flirt with the idea that getting blocked would have been better.

Resist focusing on the details.  Blocked or unblocked is a detail.  Do you see that.  Just like she will communicate on FB but not on google chat...or things like that.

For whatever reason she is somehow limiting communication.  Express interest in listening...once...then go on about your life.

She will let you know when she is ready.

Do you see the strategy? 

FF

[babyducks]

Is this a form of “silent treatment”?

People whose thinking is organized at the borderline level,   People who process life and emotion with borderline type coping skills, manage their intense, chaotic and often painful emotions in ways that are confusing to us.     Since we process life differently.

Could it be a form of silent treatment.   perhaps.   chances are it's a little bit of silent treatment and a little bit of fear and a little angry and some shame.   

It's more complicated than that.    I would encourage you to broaden your understandings of what goes on with some one with BPD.      By extending your understanding you become less reactive too it.

[babyducks]

I flirt with the idea that getting blocked would have been better.

This looks like manufacturing certainty again.

I understand the desire for certainty.    I would say the counter balance for the desire for certainty is 'distress tolerance'.

What kind of distress tolerance skills do you have Sandb2015?       How do they work for you?    What can you do to bolster them right now?

[Harri]

This thread has reached the post limit and has been split and locked.  Part 2 is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=336022.msg13048762#msg13048762