Projections?

[secretagent]

Here's a summary of some things my pwBPD has said to me lately:

-You are very defensive
-You have black-and-white thinking
-You have little idea what goes on inside your head
-You don't acknowledge your problems
-You haven't done enough to address your problems
-You create problems from nothing
-You blame me for your problems
-You sabotage our relationship
-You need a lot of professional help
-You've been hiding things from me
-You've misled me about important aspects of yourself
-You've been gaslighting me
-You've been emotionally abusive to me
-I have to set boundaries and take action to protect my values

Much of this started or got worse after she was diagnosed with BPD again last year. (She says it's a junk diagnosis). It's like she can read my thoughts about her, and then redirects them towards me. Could these be projections? How to best deal with them? I've been avoiding JADEing and using SET, but now she is getting more and more angry about what she perceives as my inadequate/insufficient efforts to address the issues above. When I ask her about specific steps she'd like me to take, the usual response is "these are your problems, you need to figure them out, I just want to see results."

This really messes with my head, but maybe it's part of the point -- it's like she's giving me a taste of what it's like to have a mental illness.

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[Red5]

Hello secretagent,

Here's a summary of some things my pwBPD has said to me lately:

-You are very defensive
-You have black-and-white thinking
-You have little idea what goes on inside your head
-You don't acknowledge your problems
-You haven't done enough to address your problems
-You create problems from nothing
-You blame me for your problems
-You sabotage our relationship
-You need a lot of professional help
-You've been hiding things from me
-You've misled me about important aspects of yourself
-You've been gaslighting me
-You've been emotionally abusive to me
-I (aye) have to set boundaries and take action to protect my values

  Clearly !  …   projection, the 'old' "you you you" guns blazing!

...It's like she can read my thoughts about her, and then redirects them towards me.

We as the "Non", sometimes I think; even when we say nothing… are saying something… I read again today, on another website, that pw/BPD have clear control over their actions/reactions… the article went on to say; "they can "control" themselves around an authority figure"… Judge, Doctor, Police… but when they are "back on the farm" with us, the "Non"… then its 'woe betide'… to us the "Non".

Could these be projections?

Clearly to me… my own uBPDw (now separated)… she does the exact same to me…

How to best deal with them? When I ask her about specific steps she'd like me to take, the usual response is "these are your problems, you need to figure them out, I just want to see results."

… yes, most times after another "shwacking"… I'm told I'm the one who is 'crazy'… and "how dare you even imply that I (she) needs to calm down and me mindful"… that didn't go over very well ; (

Now I've learned, the hard way, that we; the "Non" should never ever "imply", that pw/BPD has any problems at all… thus the 'tools'… enter "radical acceptance"…

I've also been reading a bit about "talionic" thinking… and "aye for and aye"… tooth for tooth… "black and white"… "all or nothing"… "my way or the highway"… pw/BPD is right, Non is w-r-o-n-g!…

" talionic "...

Hang in there, and keep posting…

Kind Regards, Red5

[once removed]

projection is not the same thing as hypocrisy. for example, ever seen two people fight, and keep telling the other "you always need to be right"?

in other words, its possible that your partner really feels this way.

does she offer examples? is any of it valid?

[Red5]

… projection is not the same thing as hypocrisy.

*In other words, its possible that your partner really feels this way.

… once removed is onto something very valid here, I missed it  

Very important to understand, that a person's feelings, their feelings… are indeed important, and they matter!

I think this is where that old "validation tool" comes out,

My "T" drew me a picture the other day…

On one side a box with the word "Right"… a line drawn to the other side of the page, another box, and in it was written "Wrong"… he asked me, "Red, what do you see in the middle?"… I replied, "I see a void of disagreement"… he said to me, "NO Red… that's the "common ground"…

What would "common ground" look like to you, after your wife said all those "you's" to you secretagent…

I try, but often fail, to reach this "common ground" while using my compass called "compromise"… sometimes it works, sometimes not,

Red5

[secretagent]

Now I've learned, the hard way, that we; the "Non" should never ever "imply", that pw/BPD has any problems at all … thus the 'tools' … enter "radical acceptance" …

Yep, I've learned the same thing. The mere mention of my wife's BPD diagnoses usually leads to her reciting a long (but unconvincing) list of reasons why she doesn't have BPD, then segways into a list of my (in her opinion, far more serious) problems, then to my perceived failures to "fix" my problems, then to accusations of me deliberately sabotaging the relationship and "driving her insane", and before long, she's in a full-on rage screaming at me for making her scream at me...

in other words, its possible that your partner really feels this way.

does she offer examples? is any of it valid?

I have no doubt she really feels this way, but only when she's dysphoric. At the other extreme, I'm the most wonderful and amazing person in the world... Idealization/devaluation.

Is it valid? Well, there's certainly a grain of truth in each one, but I don't think they're good generalizations. For example, starting from the top, I completely agree that I have sometimes exhibited defensive behavior (namely, JADEing) in my relationship with her. But she doesn't like that statement because it brings her into the picture, and tries to convince me that being very defensive is a general and severe character flaw of mine. The thing is, prior to this relationship, I have received many compliments from a number of people for being non-defensive, specifically, for calmly listening to and accepting (sometimes severe) criticism, acknowledging my mistakes and character flaws, and accepting responsibility for my actions. As a reality check, I asked my parents and one of my best friends if I am, or have been, defensive. They all told me I'm one of the least defensive people they know.   

My "T" drew me a picture the other day …

On one side a box with the word "Right" …. a line drawn to the other side of the page, another box, and in it was written "Wrong" … he asked me, "Red, what do you see in the middle?" … I replied, "I see a void of disagreement" … he said to me, … "NO Red … that's the "common ground" …

What would "common ground" look like to you, after your wife said all those "you's" to you secretagent …

Excellent question. I guess I see a spectrum between "Right" and "Wrong", however it's defined. I don't think there's absolute "Right" and "Wrong". I see common ground in acknowledging that our views may be equally valid. I acknowledge that in "Borderline Personality Disorder", "Borderline" refers to an outdated concept (neurotic vs psychotic), and it may not be a "disorder" but rather a perfectly valid and understandable response to traumatic events in early childhood. I've seen her respond to genuine emergencies, and holy crap, she was *phenomenal*. She seems to be finely tuned to deal with a hostile, threatening, life-or-death world, and who knows what the future holds. People like her may very well end up saving us all. I'm not the one to judge.

That said, I do think that her condition, at the present time, is causing her and her loved ones a lot of pain, and that may not be a good thing. 

[secretagent]

In any case, the gist of it is, my wife keeps telling me that I'm the one who is causing the "destructive cycles" in our relationship. At her urging, I have now seen three different psychiatrists and read a number of self-help books. While it has been helpful for some self-improvement, the "rage-disgust-sadness-joy" cycle in our relationship continues, and my wife says "Clearly you haven't done much, because you haven't changed, you're the same defensive, gaslighting, abusive prick you've always been."

[Steps31]

Are there examples you can sit down and go through with her, while looking up criteria at the same time together (when she's in a good mood)?

[secretagent]

Are there examples you can sit down and go through with her, while looking up criteria at the same time together (when she's in a good mood)?

Thank you for the suggestion, but please clarify what you mean by "examples". My issues, her issues, or our relationship issues? There are examples of each.

If you are referring to the statements I made in my original post, then yes, she can cite examples of each. I already addressed the first one (defensiveness), but here's the second one on the list -- black-and-white thinking. Seeing things in shades of grey, or on a spectrum, has been my philosophy most of my life. However, on a few occasions, I do recall myself making black-and-white statements, mostly in response to her doing the same, though. She picked up on it, remembered it, and throws it back at me.

[Steps31]

I was thinking of things she has blamed you for. From looking at your list on top, it seems she could argue most of the points back and forth. You can't really "prove" that you're not hiding something from her. It's frustrating, I know.
Let's say if you ask her to provide an example of your black and white thinking, or a time you were trying to gaslight. Those might be easier to answer with facts, and maybe a start to some common ground...

[secretagent]

Let's say if you ask her to provide an example of your black and white thinking, or a time you were trying to gaslight. Those might be easier to answer with facts, and maybe a start to some common ground...

See above for black-and-white thinking. It's really not my style, but I know I've done it a few times, mostly in response to her. Example:

Her: You haven't dealt with your own issues and now you're pushing them on to me. This is abusive and condescending.
Me: So, from your perspective, I'm completely in the wrong here?
Her: That's really black-and-white-thinking.

As for "trying to gaslight", like I said, any mention of BPD brings forth this accusation.

[once removed]

Yep, I've learned the same thing. The mere mention of my wife's BPD diagnoses usually leads to her reciting a long (but unconvincing) list of reasons why she doesn't have BPD, then segways into a list of my (in her opinion, far more serious) problems

reminding her of BPD can be a bit like telling her she is defective. its a sure way to put her on the defensive.

I have no doubt she really feels this way, but only when she's dysphoric. At the other extreme, I'm the most wonderful and amazing person in the world... Idealization/devaluation.

people with BPD traits tend to over emote and overstate things in extremes. a trap that a lot of us fall into is getting caught up in that...dismissing the bad, the complaints, the concerns, and investing in the good, the expressions of how wonderful we are. or vice versa.

dont fall into that trap. there is truth to both, but both are over stated.

As a reality check, I asked my parents and one of my best friends if I am, or have been, defensive. They all told me I'm one of the least defensive people they know.   

this can be a trap as well.

these relationships, our closest and most intimate relationships can test us and reveal the ways we react to stress. im a pretty mild mannered guy, but during my relationship i was shouting at the top of my lungs, punching holes in walls, threatening to beat up my partners vehicle.

Her: You haven't dealt with your own issues and now you're pushing them on to me. This is abusive and condescending.
Me: So, from your perspective, I'm completely in the wrong here?
Her: That's really black-and-white-thinking.

its black and white thinking, and its not really listening or constructive.

id be interested to know a little more about the back and forth in the arguments youre having. have you learned this three minute lesson on ending conflict: https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

[secretagent]

id be interested to know a little more about the back and forth in the arguments youre having. have you learned this three minute lesson on ending conflict: https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

We don't have very many arguments anymore; I've learned that little good comes from them. Most of the time it feels like I'm being attacked and trying to diffuse the situation. It goes something like this:

Her: You're being defensive again
Me: I recognize I just made a defensive statement. I realize it's frustrating when I do this and will try to avoid it next time.
Her: You've been saying this for years, but there's never any change. I don't want to hear that you'll try, I want to see you do.
Me: I will do what I can.
Her: That's a meaningless platitude. You're always trying to leave some way for yourself to weasel out later. I find it infuriating.
Me: I understand that it can be infuriating when I'm being vague. Here are some specific steps I will take.
Her: You're already overcommitted, when will you find the time to do this?
Me: I will prioritize it because it's important to you.
Her: So you're dumping it on me again? They're your problems, leave me out of it. Why are you trying to sabotage the conversation?
Me: I apologize for mentioning you, I shouldn't have done that.
Her: You have a lot of serious problems you know. I don't think you have any idea what goes on inside your head.
Me: I recognize that I have problems, and I understand it can be frustrating.
Her: You sound like a robot, you've totally emotionally withdrawn. I want you to show up for the relationship, not recite the same old bs. Where is the person I married?

[once removed]

Her: You sound like a robot, you've totally emotionally withdrawn.

i mean, shes badgering a bit. she could just as easily exit the conversation. but shes isnt wrong...

why talk to your wife as if youre reading from a script?

[secretagent]

i mean, shes badgering a bit. she could just as easily exit the conversation. but shes isnt wrong...

why talk to your wife as if youre reading from a script?

I do emotionally detach -- it's the only method I found so far to maintain composure. Otherwise, I may respond with fear and anger, which has led to some pretty explosive arguments in the past. I've yet to learn how to be genuinely empathetic when it feels like I'm being attacked.

[once removed]

I do emotionally detach

this is a coping mechanism.

its an understandable one that i think a lot of people would find themselves using. i know one of my go tos was to get very impatient very quickly if i sensed bait. as i said, your partner kind of badgers a bit, lays it on thick, and id feel attacked too. id tell her that if she were here, to take it a bit easier, not to throw so many things at once and in such accusatory terms. these are things that in times of calm, you can express ("when x happens, i feel attacked, when we approach conflict i feel its easier to tackle one issue at a time, etc etc") and in times of calm, she is more likely to understand and be receptive to (though it may be her style and that may come through from time to time).

having said all of that, there are more constructive coping mechanisms.

of the tools here, what have you tried?