Needing advice..intimacy. To be or not to be?

[Theperfectsky]

How do I carry on a normal relationship including intimacy when I'm an emotional lover? How do I protect myself from being emotionally hurt but also have needs met? I feel like by being intimate I am giving in and allowing our issues to be kept swept  under the rug. I also would be disassociating to protect myself. Because as we all know its only a matter of time before we are hurt again.

Was talking to my T about this. Wanted everyone's thoughts. Have other questions as well not sure where to post them.

Thanks

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Hopeandjoy]

tough decision to make. It's def up to you but I'll share my thoughts. 

I think it depends on how the person is hurting you, and how you expect them to hurt you in the future. If these things go strongly against your core needs I would be very careful. To me it sounds like there's a lack of boundaries in the relationship as a whole, making it emotionally unsafe. if that's the case, I would focus on that.

If you decide not to be intimate, the other person might lose their drive toward the relationship. You can offer to be intimate X amount of times per month to slow it down without eliminating all of the hope for the other person. You can set other boundaries around the intimacy. If you don't feel comfortable doing that, you can spend less time together instead. But it's best to very clear and specific. It's best to say what you can do and avoid phrasing it negatively.

When you talk to your partner about this, it's important to clearly understand your needs, feelings, and goal. If you leak out any fear, uncertainty etc. they could feel rejected and try to change your mind. If he has BPD he prly uses information against you, so It might be good to leave out the dissociation and emotional lover factor.

[Theperfectsky]

Thats the problem. I cant have a convo with him. Idk how to convey this to him. We will get into a fight he will act like it never happened and just move on.  We live together have a child together.

There is mental and emotional abuse. Yes def lack of boundaries. And yes he is def BPD/npd.

I told him we needed to talk about our issues. This fight all has to do with him walking out of counseling and refusing to go back or do individual. He told me hes not going. Get over it. Oh well type of thing. Counseling is VERY important to me and he knows that. I go weekly. And he def needs to go. We had started with a new couples T in hopes he would go into individual.

The one person I need to talk to. (Him) I'm unable to. Idk what to do. He mentioned this morning how long its been since weve had sex. Hes going to be coming on strong. Esp since I'm dressed up today...

Of course I want to have sex with him. I love him. But i know it will leave me emotionally open and again I'll be attached and its only a matter of time before he cuts the attachment. Im tired of being hurt. And the fact like I said before this is just continuing to sweep things under the rug. Exactly what he wants...

[Hopeandjoy]

I'm glad to hear you are in therapy and wish you could see him do the same. People with NPD usually try to fool their T that they're a victim and the T starts trying to change you instead of helping them.

Sex def makes you more vulnerable, and it's supposed to be that way. It sounds like you need some emotional safety.
You need solutions and improvement, you want to be moving forward. You have asked him to talk, and asked him to stay in counseling, but that hasn't worked.

It sounds like he wants to avoid the issues, he prly thinks he benefits from them and fears losing control. It's best to ask for something that gives both people what they want: "If we talk about this for 1 hour I'll drop it for the rest of the day." With boundaries you get to protect yourself, and the pwBPD learns that their behavior doesn't benefit them.
 

[once removed]

what if he refuses counseling?

[Theperfectsky]

I'm glad to hear you are in therapy and wish you could see him do the same. People with NPD usually try to fool their T that they're a victim and the T starts trying to change you instead of helping them.

Sex def makes you more vulnerable, and it's supposed to be that way. It sounds like you need some emotional safety.
You need solutions and improvement, you want to be moving forward. You have asked him to talk, and asked him to stay in counseling, but that hasn't worked.

It sounds like he wants to avoid the issues, he prly thinks he benefits from them and fears losing control. It's best to ask for something that gives both people what they want: "If we talk about this for 1 hour I'll drop it for the rest of the day." With boundaries you get to protect yourself, and the pwBPD learns that their behavior doesn't benefit them.
 

Idk how to even start the convo. He said earlier that I must be cheating on him because i dont want to have sex. I said no thats not what that means. He said yea its a sign. I said you know sex is emotional for me. And how things have been going having sex will just leave me open emotionally and I could be hurt. He said I know. I understand. I said if you know and understand then what are you going to do? No response

I havent brought it up everyday. I used to do that. I found that didnt work. I havent really brought it up since last weekend

[Theperfectsky]

what if he refuses counseling?

Hes already refused. Our lease will end in a few months. I'm really at a crossroads right now and have to figure out what I'm going to do. Ive stepped back a lot emotionally and have dug my heels in. Thats why im sticking to the no sex because then the cycle continues if I give in

[Hopeandjoy]

I would start the convo with ownership of a feeling, something that won't trigger him. Id also say what you want or need.Then offer a win-win solution, with specific details since you will get frustrated if he has to guess. It would sound something like this:
I guess I feel more emotional after sex.
I need to know our relationship is improving.
If we go to counseling X times a month, I would be willing to have sex X amount of times per week. As things improve, I could see us having sex more often than that."

If you end with a vision that you know he wants, he's going to go for it. Just make sure it's something you would do, and include your needs first. he will understand has to reciprocate and you're not going to cave.

If he tries to shoot down your feelings or needs, just repeat the last part (win-win solution). It's important to be consistent, and repeat as necessary.

When he accuses you of cheating, it's best to just repeat why you haven't had sex with him and ignore the accusation. It's actually good he's concerned, because that will motivate him to work out a deal with you. As long as you're clear about how you feel and you have a good reason, its not manipulative.

[Theperfectsky]

I would start the convo with ownership of a feeling, something that won't trigger him. Id also say what you want or need.Then offer a win-win solution, with specific details since you will get frustrated if he has to guess. It would sound something like this:
I guess I feel more emotional after sex.
I need to know our relationship is improving.
If we go to counseling X times a month, I would be willing to have sex X amount of times per week. As things improve, I could see us having sex more often than that."

If you end with a vision that you know he wants, he's going to go for it. Just make sure it's something you would do, and include your needs first. he will understand has to reciprocate and you're not going to cave.

If he tries to shoot down your feelings or needs, just repeat the last part (win-win solution). It's important to be consistent, and repeat as necessary.

When he accuses you of cheating, it's best to just repeat why you haven't had sex with him and ignore the accusation. It's actually good he's concerned, because that will motivate him to work out a deal with you. As long as you're clear about how you feel and you have a good reason, its not manipulative.

Us going to counseling isnt going to help anything. HE needs to go to counseling. Until he deals with his underlying issues i dont see how our relationship can improve. I dont want to use sex as a bargaining tool that doesn't feel right to me. I just need to know how to have a convo with him about discussing our issues which he is avoiding and I'm not having sex because that will be me avoiding the issues with him and re opening myself emotionally to be hurt. I don't want to get back into the cycle.

[Hopeandjoy]

It sounds like your main goal is to get communication, and you want him to get counseling. If i were you, I would write down the things you want out of that. It would be a good idea to invite him share his feelings about it.

you're right about not using sex as a bargaining tool. You might want to state how you feel and what you need, but instead of offering a deal just set a boundary that gives you the space you need.

it doesn't seem fair, but when your partner is disordered they don't have much to offer in the communication/emotional health department, but you can bring that to the table. If he went to therapy, they may over validate him and reinforce his victim ploy. In my opinion, when you're dating someone with traits of NPD the less they know about psychology, social standards for abuse, and religion the better (they will use all of that against you). I'm sure you could deal with it if he did get empowered like this by a therapist, but I think you have more power to improve the relationship than a therapist does.

[Theperfectsky]

Hes been drinking now. So there will be no talking tonight. Ugh

Yes communication. Invite him where?

You think I have a better chance to improve the relationship than a therapist? I cant help heal him from past traumas. I've tried

[Hopeandjoy]

sorry to hear that he's drinking and now you can't talk tonight :[

i think that him healing his past traumas will help him. But I think that improving your communication will help your relationship.

I would invite him to share his feelings, so you know why he won't go. If he knows that you acknowledge his feelings, he will be less defensive and more open to hear your side. Once he's open and you know his line of reasoning, you can negotiate better.

[Theperfectsky]

Just now he said that our daughter belongs with him. That she would be better off. I'm a pos and always have been. Hes been trying all day being nice to me and ive been nothing but a bitch.  All I ever wanted was to have a kid with him so I could get child support. Which is a lie he got me pregnant on purpose. He said all of this in front of my son. He kept saying huh huh? I said I'm not answering youre being ridiculous. You need to stop. This is not the time to be talking to me about these things. ((This is what happens when he drinks. Just randomly starts talking crazy and mean)

And he wonders why I won't have sex with him? Why would i?

[Hopeandjoy]

sounds like a rough night, wow. i know you're in the middle of conflict right now, but i do believe you can turn it around unless he's too drunk.

it sounds like he won't listen to you so it's best to ask him a question that makes him think about what he's doing.

Something like "Do you really believe you know why i got pregnant?"

[Theperfectsky]

He cycles so quickly. He then asked me if I wanted food that hes ordering then eff you and idc about my daughter and now back to fine again. Its exhausting!

[Hopeandjoy]

i hope he orders you some good food and you get some rest

[Theperfectsky]

Rest isnt possible here. Now I'm a bitch again because he came over and was laying on my legs and body and I asked him to move because he's heavy. He said dont eat my food when it gets here. You can pay half. Youve been a bitch all day
 Eff you

[Hopeandjoy]

wow what a night. sounds like power and control. I think you are right that this is a time to detach. not just in the relationship overall, but from these behaviors. anything you can do to depersonalize them. its challenging when you live together, have you considered a therapeutic separation?

[Theperfectsky]

This is all the time what he does. I moved here to be with him. He is in residency. Im here with no family no friends. Its too expensive to live on my own in this area. I have 2 children. Its just a mess.

All this is new to me. Idk how to navigate his BPD. I know very little. That's why I need so much help.

[Hopeandjoy]

I would imagine you feel resentful at times. I think your power lies in navigating his BPD and this is a good place to learn!

im in the same situation, at first I thought my partner is just so out of hand there's nothing I can do. I decided to bring some skills to the table and he responded better than I expected. its been up and down, but I feel a lot better as I focus on my successes in the relationship I learn to trust that I can take care of myself. 

[Theperfectsky]

How long have you been together?

I dont see that its fair. We always have to validate and support them. When do our needs get met? How do they get met? I don't see they ever will.

I'm just a punching bag. That continues to be abused over and over again and when I'm being distant because I'm tired of being hurt I'm being a bitch according to him.

He doesnt help me do hardly anything. I feel like I'm the only adult in this relationship. I don't have a partner. I don't have a team member. Its me. Taking care of 3 children essentially. Taking care of a house. I have a full time job.

[SunandMoon]

Hi Perfect Sky

I'm sorry you're going through this... I can hear how helpless and stressed you feel.

Please remember that we are not psychologists or psychs. We can offer support and do understand how hard these relationships are but only you know how bad it is, and you need to trust your instincts.

The problem is, you don't know if it's BPD or something else and I'm worried about how this might escalate.

If I remember correctly, your husband may have killed his cat recently, is that right? Have you looked at the safety plan information you were given before?

https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety-first-dv-1.pdf

I know you have moved to be with your husband but is there somewhere you can go for a while? Family, friends - even if you have to travel. I'm not saying leave; just somewhere where you can take a break and assess your options?

Sending you strength
SaM x

[Theperfectsky]

I mean I cant even have a conversation with him. Everything it seems is a trigger. He twists everything I say to make it negative. Or says I'm meaning something else. That this is how I really feel and I say no it isnt. You cant tell me what I feel or what I say. Then he says I can never admit when I'm wrong. And then I say because I'm not wrong. I'm stating facts. Then he says I'm impossible to talk to. Idk how to communicate with people. Then he gets mad and walks away and thats the conversation. Then I'm upset and fruatrated and he says I'm too much. Leave me alone. Im not doing this right now. Which he says EVERY TIME. He would be perfectly fine not ever discussing anything. Idk how he expects to have a relationship with no communication. Or he will act like a child and copy Everything I say and do weird voices and be like oh do we need to talk? And say random things. And I'll say come on. You know we need to talk. He treats it like a joke.  Everything is unresolved . its so annoying frustrating hurtful. I'm getting very tired of it. Its like trying to pull teeth to get him to talk about our issues. So I walk on eggshells constantly dealing with all of our problems. Sitting inside me making me feel sick. Racing through my mind constantly because he doesnt want to deal with them. It isnt fair.

Not to mention all the horrible nasty things he has called me and said to me.

All the sentimental things of mine and my son's he has destroyed in a drunken rage

All the times ive had to leave and go get a hotel

And yet I still try and he has no desire to do the same and just makes a mockery of it all

[Theperfectsky]

Hi Perfect Sky

I'm sorry you're going through this... I can hear how helpless and stressed you feel.

Please remember that we are not psychologists or psychs. We can offer support and do understand how hard these relationships are but only you know how bad it is, and you need to trust your instincts.

The problem is, you don't know if it's BPD or something else and I'm worried about how this might escalate.

If I remember correctly, your husband may have killed his cat recently, is that right? Have you looked at the safety plan information you were given before?

https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/safety-first-dv-1.pdf

I know you have moved to be with your husband but is there somewhere you can go for a while? Family, friends - even if you have to travel. I'm not saying leave; just somewhere where you can take a break and assess your options?

Sending you strength
SaM x

Yes ive looked at it. Yes about the cat. If I leave i would have to go to GA even for a break and I have a job and children I have to support. I cant do that. My job is my only constant.

[Hopeandjoy]

The things you describe yourself feeling, are all very typical of someone dating a pwBPD. I can relate. I think you will need to create space to process all of these emotions, and you are right in wanting to distance yourself. Not having sex is one way to do that, but you might need more distance than that. I don't think you can learn to assert yourself when he's right there, he's overpowering you too much. I've heard that therapeutic separates creates the emergency situation he needs. A therapist could guide you through details to achieve the right goals.
I feel like if you were gone, he would see the therapist as his link to you.

[Theperfectsky]

The things you describe yourself feeling, are all very typical of someone dating a pwBPD. I can relate. I think you will need to create space to process all of these emotions, and you are right in wanting to distance yourself. Not having sex is one way to do that, but you might need more distance than that. I don't think you can learn to assert yourself when he's right there, he's overpowering you too much. You might want to talk to your therapist about doing a therapeutic separation. He will see that you're serious and it will create the emergency situation he needs. Once you can observe him from a distance you can make a level-headed decision from there. A therapist should guide you through details so you have the best chance of achieving your goals with it.

Since you mentioned that you can't go to GA, another option would be to a rent a weekly stay hotel in the area. EVen if you have to ask a church to pay for it.

How can I live in a hotel with 2 children? I wish we could do a trial separation but its not possible. Rent is too expensive here for me to pay by myself in order to stay in this house. Its too expensive to move out on my own. It would be easier for him to leave but he won't. Idk how to even talk to him about these things.

Can someone help me how to even talk to him?

I live here with my children. My son is going to be starting kindergarten.  I need to know how to communicate. How to diffuse

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi perfectsky,

I'm so sorry you are under such stress right now. I agree with hopeandjoy that it sounds like his focus in the relationship is on power and control, not what is best for the relationship between the two of you.

I found a workshop on how to communicate with a BPD loved one. That seems to be what you are struggling with on your end. You can take a look and see if it is something you believe might help:

Communicate: Listen and Be Heard

To answer the question you asked me on one of your other threads, no, I am not still with my h. In my situation, there was extensive physical abuse, and I could not stay any longer because it was a threat to my safety and my son's safety.

SunandMoon is right, we cannot diagnose your h here on this site, but I believe you mentioned that the marriage counselor thought that he had more than just BPD going on. The alcohol use is concerning, too, because that adds another level to his behavior and your ability to communicate.

It is very frustrating and stressful to be the only one in the relationship who takes on adult responsibilities. It is also very lonely when you realize that you don't have the emotional support or cooperation in the r/s from your partner. I also understand your feelings that it isn't fair to have to validate and support another person when your own needs are not getting met.

I encourage you to practice self care as much as possible. T for yourself is one way of doing that. And remember, you can not change your bf's behaviors, you can only change how you interact with him.

[SunandMoon]

I don't know how much reading you have done on this site, TPS, but this is a good place to start:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

Click the link at the end of the article for more.

He's obviously not open to discussing problems at the moment, so it helps to try a different approach.

Also, trying to force him into therapy is not likely to be successful. Unless he admits he has a problem and is willing to seek help, it will just be paying lip service for a few sessions.

Honestly - we always have choices. They can be hard. Moving, getting a new job, relying on family and friends to get you through. It's not something anyone wants to do... but please don't feel you don't have choices.

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 2 is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=336274.msg13050787#msg13050787