Is this friendship lost for me?

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Hi,

Sorry for posting 2 threads at the same time, but I could use some objective input on this issue. It has been bugging me since January, and I think I'm stuck.

DH and I have been friends with another couple for 20-odd years. DH befriended the guy during one of his first ever jobs, and I got along well with his partner (let’s call her Sofia here), so we naturally grew closer. We often go on weekends together and have shared several summer holidays. There is a lot of history, mostly good. About 2 years ago, their third child was born. This changed the dynamics in the friendship, because the 4 other children were 7 years or older. Her parenting style is very different to ours, but that never really stood in the way of our friendship (boundaries, I guess?). She can get very stressed out with household and practical things. Her voice will rise several decibels, and everybody just tends to get out of her way when she’s at it. Her husband and kids are used to it and just use a kind of medium chill with her in those moments. No, she does not have a PD, she’s just really bad at organizing, starts stressing out, but will refuse to hand anything over because it will not be done the way she wants, so she keeps trying to do everything herself.

Sofia had a rough year last year. I don’t know any specific cause. It was all becoming too much. She had anxiety attacks, severe allergic reactions and had a hard time swallowing food, going from overweight to almost skinny, while he opposite was happening to me. We chatted a lot in those months. We were both out of form and tried to support each other and listen to each other.

Just after New Year we spent a long weekend in a big house with them and another befriended couple. Sofia was still not really well. She was continually fretting. She seemingly felt left out, but also consciously isolated herself from joint activities. During the last supper, she suddenly exploded and started offloading on me for something I had not even done. I froze. Did not know whether I should get mad or crawl under the table. I just wanted out of there.  The 3 other adults rolled their eyes, and her husband humorously and calmly said: “right, I think it’s time for Sofia to go outside and let off some steam, who agrees?“ We all raised your hands, and she stopped. She continued feeding her youngest and the subject changed. She didn’t apologize though. I kept my distance and kind of shut down for the rest of the weekend. I had had enough.

Since then I have deliberately remained distant with her. I didn’t accept one of her invitations, because I had other obligations. I did not try to change my agenda like I would have in the past. She tried to reach out to me via DH, saying she regretted me not being present, reiterating she hoped I would be able to join in June (I had also said I wasn’t sure I could come). We visited them at their home some 3 weeks ago, went for a walk, had dinner together. She was much calmer and communication was good. But I feel restraint from my part. I respond to her and chat with her, but the willingness to stick my neck out, to support, even simply to have a laugh was not there. She was trying really hard, but I simply could not make the jump. I feel the same mistrust and reserve as I do with my mother. 

So: is this friendship lost to me? What can I do to get past that incident? How can I overcome this restraint, this mistrust, this unwillingness to be there for a friend because of one incident?

Thank you for reading, any advice is welcome.

Libra.

[Libra]

Hi,

Sorry for posting 2 threads at the same time, but I could use some objective input on this issue. It has been bugging me since January, and I think I'm stuck.

DH and I have been friends with another couple for 20-odd years. DH befriended the guy during one of his first ever jobs, and I got along well with his partner (let’s call her Sofia here), so we naturally grew closer. We often go on weekends together and have shared several summer holidays. There is a lot of history, mostly good. About 2 years ago, their third child was born. This changed the dynamics in the friendship, because the 4 other children were 7 years or older. Her parenting style is very different to ours, but that never really stood in the way of our friendship (boundaries, I guess?). She can get very stressed out with household and practical things. Her voice will rise several decibels, and everybody just tends to get out of her way when she’s at it. Her husband and kids are used to it and just use a kind of medium chill with her in those moments. No, she does not have a PD, she’s just really bad at organizing, starts stressing out, but will refuse to hand anything over because it will not be done the way she wants, so she keeps trying to do everything herself.

Sofia had a rough year last year. I don’t know any specific cause. It was all becoming too much. She had anxiety attacks, severe allergic reactions and had a hard time swallowing food, going from overweight to almost skinny, while he opposite was happening to me. We chatted a lot in those months. We were both out of form and tried to support each other and listen to each other.

Just after New Year we spent a long weekend in a big house with them and another befriended couple. Sofia was still not really well. She was continually fretting. She seemingly felt left out, but also consciously isolated herself from joint activities. During the last supper, she suddenly exploded and started offloading on me for something I had not even done. I froze. Did not know whether I should get mad or crawl under the table. I just wanted out of there.  The 3 other adults rolled their eyes, and her husband humorously and calmly said: “right, I think it’s time for Sofia to go outside and let off some steam, who agrees?“ We all raised your hands, and she stopped. She continued feeding her youngest and the subject changed. She didn’t apologize though. I kept my distance and kind of shut down for the rest of the weekend. I had had enough.

Since then I have deliberately remained distant with her. I didn’t accept one of her invitations, because I had other obligations. I did not try to change my agenda like I would have in the past. She tried to reach out to me via DH, saying she regretted me not being present, reiterating she hoped I would be able to join in June (I had also said I wasn’t sure I could come). We visited them at their home some 3 weeks ago, went for a walk, had dinner together. She was much calmer and communication was good. But I feel restraint from my part. I respond to her and chat with her, but the willingness to stick my neck out, to support, even simply to have a laugh was not there. She was trying really hard, but I simply could not make the jump. I feel the same mistrust and reserve as I do with my mother. 

So: is this friendship lost to me? What can I do to get past that incident? How can I overcome this restraint, this mistrust, this unwillingness to be there for a friend because of one incident?

Thank you for reading, any advice is welcome.

Libra.

[No-One]

Libra:
There may be a few exceptions, but I believe most friendships change over time.  Circumstances change, and it's hard for the friendship to not change is some ways.  Nothing stays the way it was.

Your friend had another child.  Sometimes just that can be a tipping point for an anxious person who may have been just barely holding things together before.

Perhaps, if you decide to go to another overnight event, your family stays in a separate place (not the same large house).  This could give you and your family somewhere to escape to, and it could help take the stress off of your friend

Sofia had a rough year last year. I don’t know any specific cause. It was all becoming too much. She had anxiety attacks, severe allergic reactions and had a hard time swallowing food, going from overweight to almost skinny . . .   
she’s just really bad at organizing, starts stressing out, but will refuse to hand anything over because it will not be done the way she wants, so she keeps trying to do everything herself.

Sounds like she has had issues with perfectionism and a need to control things (the two go together).  It, also, sounds like she had a rough patch with anxiety (possible depression, post partum maybe?).  Do you know if she has been on some meds or had therapy in the past?

She doesn't have to have a personality disorder to share a few traits of BPD (most people have a trait or two to some degree).  She might not be capable of apologizing or even remembering the event the way you do.  Sounds like her husband is used to her unraveling when she is overwhelmed.  She is who she is.  You were just lucky you hadn't seen that side of her before.

The decision is yours.  You can't change her, but you could decide to modify the friendship and aim to share some low-key events or stay away from situations where she is apt to get stressed out and snap.

[Libra]

Hello No-One, 

You are right of course, I am also aware of her perfectionist and controlling traits. Post-partum has also crossed my mind.

Up to this incident, I never felt as if I could possibly get in the line of fire of her explosions. Her husband really is quite good in handling her when she unravels (I really like the word, it fits so well!)

All concerned have probably long forgotten about this incident, except me. It reminded me so much of my mother's blameshifting and offloading of emotions that it got lodged into my memory and it is stuck there. Now the ease of a carefree friendship is lost, and I feel apprehensive in our interactions. That reminds me too much of my mothers' black-and-white thinking though. I do not want to write off a long standing friendship because of one incident. And she is really trying to reconnect in a calm and respectful manner.

I guess I will have to let things go their couse. Take it slowly and see what happens. I just wish this alarm button would also had an 'override' switch for instances where you know you should let it pass and just give the person another chance. Or am I being naïve here and should I be less forgiving?

Thank you for your feedback, No-One, I appreciate it!

Libra.

[Harri]

Trying to tell the difference between when we are triggered by the past or if something is a real threat is hard. 

I think knowing that we are sensitive to certain things and being aware of how we can self-sooth and return to center (and then doing it) will go a long way.  It is a slow process as you already know.   I am not saying she is not wrong to do what she did.  I am saying that it may have been a one off or you could be seeing who she is when stressed (as mentioned above).  It is just one more piece of information you have about her.  See how the rest of the picture forms.  It could be that you decide that this is something you do not want to be around much or for long periods of time and that too is okay.

Until we get there though, stepping back and being cautious is smart. 

[Libra]

Hi Harri,

I know from previous posts this is something you often think about as well.  Thank you for your input

Until we get there though, stepping back and being cautious is smart.

I know you are probably right, and I understand why. This still makes me angry though. WhyWhyWHY do we have to be cautious? I do not want my past to define me or to dictate what I do as an adult!
Finding my own path, often against the flow, is a trait that I think has prevented me from becoming totally enmeshed and losing my last bit of self in the past. It is confusing to realize I cannot always rely on my intuition.
Sorry. I’m not in my  best form today. Does anybody know a remedy against PMS, headaches and migraine attacks? I’m rambling… Mea Culpa. 

Libra.

[Harri]

I know you are probably right, and I understand why. This still makes me angry though. WhyWhyWHY do we have to be cautious? I do not want my past to define me or to dictate what I do as an adult!
Finding my own path, often against the flow, is a trait that I think has prevented me from becoming totally enmeshed and losing my last bit of self in the past. It is confusing to realize I cannot always rely on my intuition.

   
Then don't be cautious.  

Push yourself to see through and work through your trigger.  Know that you might be interpreting things correctly or you might not and be prepared to deal with the consequences.  Triggers can be seen a few ways.  I find a lot of people talk about avoiding them.  I wonder how that is healing and dealing with them though (no I did not rhyme that on purpose!).  If we don't challenge our self to work on them and push through, using tools and coping skills, we will be in a life of caution like you are thinking about it.

I don't think triggers should be sought out, but I don't think that they should be avoided either.  Ask yourself if you have the coping and communication skills you will need to be able to handle any fall out.  If you don't, keep working on developing them.   Emotional Intelligence can be developed but it takes work and application.

If you are having a day of "PMS, headaches and migraine attacks" you might decide to be cautious.  If you are tired or have a big work project the next day you might want to be cautious.   Cautious, in the way I am using it here is referring to self-awareness.  It is not about what the other person has done or said, or will do and say.  Cautious is about us knowing where we are, our skills, knowing our own sensitivities and how they may influence our perceptions and consciously taking action to respond rather than react.

Allow yourself and your friend to make mistakes.  Trust yourself to be able to handle them.

How do you build trust in your self?  Through action. 

[kiwigal]

I can hear how hard this must be! 

You said your response was that you froze. That sounds like an amygdala response? Fight/ Flight/ Freeze? I am hearing that it was actually not just uncomfortable for you, but distressing.

You spoke of how it reminded you of your mum and her emotional offloading, and this shows great self awareness, of what was happening for you. In your writing, Im hearing a theme, that in this arena, you really want to step into being a grounded, individuated and assertive adult but that there was a sense of powerlessness evoked for you. Have I got the right?

I can hear that you value longevity, friendship, looking past issues and being understanding. But that you also value honesty, ownership and integrity of self. And she has lost your trust in the middle.

What would you have liked to be able to say to her if you hadn't felt like you were frozen? What would you like to say to her now that could earn back your trust?

[Libra]

Harri, 

I clearly did not get your message right the first time. Thanks for elaborating. 
I agree that avoiding triggers will leave you stuck after a while. I am getting better at identifying what triggers me, now I need to learn how to handle those triggers.

So, let’s change the perspective: My friend lashed out due to her own difficulties. This time, I was the target, and I froze. Her husband managed the situation and the day went on from there, but I seem to have problems letting go of the issue. Knowing there are tools for these situations, and knowing we were there with 2 befriended couples and their children all present, how could I have reacted better in the moment?  If her husband wouldn’t have intervened, I know I would have started JADEing, which is not ideal. And even with her husbands’ intervention, what could I have done afterwards to let go and move on?

Key here is that I cringe away from any confrontation. In any situation really. Yesterday DH and I went to a shop for more information about a product we’d bought there. The guy at the counter was super defensive and went into agressive denial mode (we weren’t even complaining, just asking info!). DH stayed calm and friendly but held his ground. At the end of the conversation, the salesman had given us the required information, had acknowledge there was a difference  in comparison to the object on display in their show-room, and told us we were welcome to come back for extra information any time. I was impressed. I would have backed down as soon as the guy started his aggressive denial, and would have left, frustrated. 

I think I need to start leaning how to use all those tools properly….

Thank you for your patience, Harri 



Libra.

[Libra]

Hi Kiwigal!

Yes, it was distressing. I went for a long walk on my own afterwards, trying to get myself composed/grounded again. That is also typical: I malfunction in a situation where I feel criticized, I try to defuse or retreat as soon as possible and then I withdraw into myself and need a time-out from social interaction. In other words: I run away   I’m getting annoyed with myself for acting that way though.

you really want to step into being a grounded, individuated and assertive adult but that there was a sense of powerlessness evoked for you. Have I got the right?
I can hear that you value longevity, friendship, looking past issues and being understanding. But that you also value honesty, ownership and integrity of self. And she has lost your trust in the middle.

Thank you for these words. They convey perfectly what I am feeling and trying to convey. Yes: I want to move on. I want to stay ‘present’ in these kind of situations and to be able to act o reply, instead of freezing and retreating.

She has indeed lost my trust. Though I feel and hear her reaching out now, I have a hard time relaxing and simply being me around her now. What I would have liked to be able to say? I don’t really know. All that springs to mind is JADEing. Could I have said: ‘You are clearly feeling very stressed at the moment. There is no need to start shouting and blaming though.’? Or would that just have put oil on the fire?

I really need to learn how to act - composed and calmly – when I feel cornered.

Thanks Kiwigal 



Libra.

[Harri]

Eh, I did not elaborate either so I don't think you missed anything. 

now I need to learn how to handle those triggers.

   

So, let’s change the perspective: My friend lashed out due to her own difficulties. This time, I was the target, and I froze. Her husband managed the situation and the day went on from there, but I seem to have problems letting go of the issue. Knowing there are tools for these situations, and knowing we were there with 2 befriended couples and their children all present, how could I have reacted better in the moment?  If her husband wouldn’t have intervened, I know I would have started JADEing, which is not ideal. And even with her husbands’ intervention, what could I have done afterwards to let go and move on?

Freezing is a familiar reaction for a lot of us.  I am not sure what will work for you, though I wish I did.  Lets take this apart and look at any script that ran through your head.  Write it out and see if you can find the root message and how it links to the past. 

Then read our article Managing Emotional Flashbacks (based on the work of Pete Walker)

Key here is that I cringe away from any confrontation. In any situation really.

Why do you do this?  What are the benefits?  What are the problems?  Do you want to change?  (I am full of questions tonight!)

I really need to learn how to act - composed and calmly – when I feel cornered.

This will happen as you practice.  Like anything, you have to see what works for you and what does not.  Start small and build from there.      

[Harri]

Could I have said: ‘You are clearly feeling very stressed at the moment. There is no need to start shouting and blaming though.’? Or would that just have put oil on the fire?

I think, depending on the strength of the friendship, the setting the tone, etc you could say "I have never seen you like this before.  What's up?  Do you want to talk about it?" if it was totally out of character.

Your option is good too.  Will it put oil on the fire?  Hard to tell.  You know her best.  I might switch it to "You sound really stressed.  Yelling and blaming me is not going to help though"or something like that.

Thoughts?

Anyone else want to chime in?

[Libra]

Oh this sucks so much.

I was planning to write a reply on this thread during my lunch break at work. I started thinking back to the incident in January and was trying to understand what was going on in my head at the time. So I was feeling quite emotional already, when DH called. He had a blow-up with his mother (we have been staying at her place duing renovations of our home - 3 weeks done, at least 2 to 3 weeks to go). He wanted to move back to our house asap (not feasible at all!).

To cut a long story short: MIL started offloading on and blaming DH. He hates that but can mostly manage to let go. Then she started complaining about me and blackmouothing me to him. He got up and left and does not want to go back. He knows the next step will be that she'll call his sister (NPD as hell) to complain and blackmouth, and she'll love every minute of it. DH just cannot stand backstabbing and talking badly of others behind their back AT ALL. I ended up trying to explain Karpman Triangle dynamics and only being able to control what you yourself will or will not do to a hurt and angry DH.

I am hurt too. I have been doing my upmost to keep things positive at MILs home (the children often get homesick, DH is very stressy about the renovations, MIL needs a lot of space). I introduced my MIL to a new shop she loved yesterday morning. It was just the 2 of us. We laughed all the way back to her house afterwards. And now this. I thought everything was going okay, but once again I was wrong. I seemingly always do something wrong. Story of my childhood. My openness towards MIL is gone now. That will make the remaining 3 weeks staying with her very unpleasant.

On top of that, I have officially heard that my contract will end by the end of October. During the team meeting this morning, they were discussing how they would fill up my functions with other team members once I'm gone. While I was present. Very strange. Being there but not having a say, being of no importance or consequence.

I feel a lot of inner turmoil and sadness boiling up. I have 7 days to finish a HUGE amount of work before roll-out, and all I want to do is go to a quiet place alone, curl up and close off.

Right. So that's my lunch break done.
Sorry, I just needed to get that a bit of this out of my system.
I feel betrayed on so many different levels right now...
Libra.

[Harri]

Ugh.  I agree it sucks and it has to feel awkward for you and your husband now.

My openness towards MIL is gone now. That will make the remaining 3 weeks staying with her very unpleasant.

I would be upset too.  Reading this post, I was thinking I saw similarities in how you reacted to your friend and now your MIL.  Shutting people out who have lashed out as a way to protect yourself.  It makes sense to me that you will have this reaction.   I also remember that you avoid conflict and I would assume that confrontation is a part of that.  Just wondering if there is a way we can help you process this so that you are not shutting yourself down.  Am I seeing things that aren't there Libra?

On top of that, I have officially heard that my contract will end by the end of October. During the team meeting this morning, they were discussing how they would fill up my functions with other team members once I'm gone. While I was present. Very strange. Being there but not having a say, being of no importance or consequence.

Sounds awkward to say the least.  I don't think i would like that.  Do you think your feeling of "being of no importance or consequence" is tied to stress of knowing you will need to say goodbye to the work you have been doing and having to find another position... on top of everything else you have going on?

Not trying to minimize any of this.  It is all difficult.  I am just wondering if we can link certain feelings together and change the narrative you have going on here. 

I seemingly always do something wrong. Story of my childhood

I know this thought process all too well.  I think I hear defeat in your words.   How can we change this message to something more positive and oriented towards empowerment?

If I am way off here, please disregard.  If I am not... let's get to work.    

[Libra]

Harri,

Thank you so much for your reply. No, you are right on all points. I actually felt teary reading the last sentence.

Damn it! Every time I think I've got a handle on things everything starts crumbling.

I start to get the feeling I'm an okay person that can actually function normally in a social context. I start letting down my defences, and then I get punched in the stomach and I feel stupid for thinking I am okay and acceptable and belong. It just reinforces the same old litany over and over.

Normally, I would be able to keep this web of emotions out of my work. I think it's too much happening at the same time that has resulted in an avalanche of emotions I feel unable to cope with at the moment.

Yes, I shut down to self-protect. That's a result from all the moving I did as a child, I think. Drop everything, don't feel sad or displaced, move on and keep going. Keep to yourself and you will stand out less and will be bullied less. Adapt, adpat, adapt. Feelings don't help, they just cause havock inside and disapproval at home.

Sorry, I'm rambling. I've got too much on my plate at the moment.

I'm off to a meeting...

Thank you Harri...

 
Libra.

[Harri]

 

Let's talk when you have more time and see what we can do.

In the meantime... stop letting stressed out outsiders who are lashing out define you and set your worth.    

I hope your meting goes well.

 

[Harri]

Hi.  I don't mean to bombard you by posting again... but (!) I have been thinking about this and really should have responded last night.

I start to get the feeling I'm an okay person that can actually function normally in a social context. I start letting down my defences, and then I get punched in the stomach and I feel stupid for thinking I am okay and acceptable and belong. It just reinforces the same old litany over and over.

Yes.  This part of recovery is frustrating and can be discouraging if you forget an important truth:  It is going to take time to build a new foundation that is solid and can endure emotional hits.  Each time we start over, we learn to keep the parts that are true and work and let go of what doesn't. 

Try to remind yourself of that even if you do it like I did... kicking, sometimes screaming and muttering under my breath!  Heh, I still do that. 

I swear it gets better. 

[Libra]

 

Let's talk when you have more time and see what we can do.

I am not avoiding this issue, but currently drowning in work and struggling with fatigue.

In the meantime... stop letting stressed out outsiders who are lashing out define you and set your worth.

Very good point. Why do I do that? I keep telling D9 exactly that, and the I don't do it myself. 

Each time we start over, we learn to keep the parts that are true and work and let go of what doesn't. 

It often feels like one step forward, two steps back instead of the other way around, but I will keep pushing on.

Keep bombarding Harri, I really appreciate your but(!)s   

Libra.

[Harri]

How are you doing Libra?

 

[Libra]

Harri, 

Roll-out today. It will be a very long working day.

Tomorrow we leave for a 3-day weekend with a group of parents (9 couples in total!). It's the first time we'll be spending so much time together. I hope I will be able to 'get over' the feeling of only hanging on in the fringe, and I hope there won't be any major issues/triggers. In other words, I hope will be able to simply have some fun and relax!

I would still like to look into these reactions of mine, but that'll just have to wait 'till next week.

Thanks for checking in on me Harri! 

 

Libra.