Boundaries with SD22, a blended family dynamic

[livednlearned]

My T thinks its absolutely nuts that BPD SD22 comes to stay with us when H is working, putting the burden on me to deal with SD22 alone.

I hate when she's here.

I'm not sure on what planet it's ok to say no to a child coming to visit, mental illness or not  . SD22 is quiet BPD so no one is slamming doors or throwing dishes. She is more covertly aggressive and wildly needy. I typically have to out maneuver her if I want my limits to be respected. H is codependent with her, trying not to be (and not really succeeding, imo).

I had to have a heart to heart with H about what I will and will not do when SD22 is here. Telling him she cannot come seems unreasonable.

I did tell him what my limits are so he understands his choices. For example, he would often say (in front of SD22), how about you guys go see a movie/go hiking/go for brunch tomorrow? He would do it in front of SD22. I had to make it clear that from now on I will always say no. He can choose to suggest it and I can choose (and will) say no. It makes me feel bamboozled and set up. I have to be in a certain head space for SD22 and to be honest, it doesn't come around a whole lot.

She can stay with her BPD mom, she has her own place, she has money to get a hotel.

It makes me feel mean to say she can't stay here. And honestly, I cannot imagine how I would respond if H said the same to me about S17, who is on the spectrum.

Could you?

[formflier]

Couple things jumped out at me.

I don't have any step kids...but I do have an almost son in law (wedding this summer)

I made a big point of managing my relationship with him separate from my daughter.  I rarely go "through" her to communicate with him.

So...I'm wondering if you cut hubby out of this and when SD is there...you set your rules and boundaries with her.

FF trigger warning...I hate it when other people (read my wife) try to manage my relationship with our children...in front of them.  We've mostly got that worked out in our relationship now.

That's something for you and hubby to talk privately about.  Then...going forward I would (if I were you) and he tried to do social time set up in front of her, let him know you can make your own plans and then turn to her and let her know those plans don't work but that you'll text her tomorrow with some ideas.  Turn...walk away leaving them to do...whatever they want.  Wash rinse repeat.

Are there things in particular this girl does or is she one of those people that just suck the life out of the space around them.  I got the vibe it was the second one.

FF

[worriedStepmom]

She's 22?  She has her own apartment?  She's self-supporting?

Then why is she coming to stay with you unannounced?  Once I graduated from college, I asked my mom's permission to come stay with her for a night or a weekend.  That wasn't my home anymore - I had my own home.

IMO, at this age and stage of independence, she shouldn't just be showing up.  She should be asking "hey, can I come stay for the night/weekend?"  and that gives you a chance to say "I'm sorry, I already have plans, maybe you can come a different weekend when your dad is here."

[formflier]

What are the family backgrounds with regards to people coming and going from the home?

My family is kinda the opposite.  Kids that no longer live here..still come and go.  Sometimes we know about it...sometimes we don't.

We are also very liberal about having kids friends over, even to stay the night.

The flip side of this is there is no "protection" or "excuse" that you can't do chores because friends are over.  Many times their friends jump right in...grab an extra broom or do whatever.

After reading the thread again I'm curious to know more about how the T came to believe it was inappropriate.  I'm sure the T has a much better handle on family dynamics than comes through on these boards.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

She's 22?  She has her own apartment?  She's self-supporting?

Then why is she coming to stay with you unannounced?

You and my T would love each other  

IMO, at this age and stage of independence, she shouldn't just be showing up.  She should be asking "hey, can I come stay for the night/weekend?"  and that gives you a chance to say "I'm sorry, I already have plans, maybe you can come a different weekend when your dad is here."

I seem to have a chink in my armor when it comes to this. I know it's my deal to say that and cannot seem to bring myself to do it. I'm setting other limits. I can't seem to set the big one.

She is becoming a teacher, looking for her first job. I have said to H that she will not be crashing at our place during the summers just because she can't tolerate being alone. If it's that serious then it's too serious to stay here. So future proofing.

So...I'm wondering if you cut hubby out of this and when SD is there...you set your rules and boundaries with her.

You got it, FF. That's what I'm working on. I shared some things with H about my changing behaviors in relationship with SD22 so he has a heads up and can make his own choices.

1. I will say no to things that H suggests I do with SD22, especially in front of her
2. I will say no to hiking, walking the dog with H and SD22 (things get weird)
3. I will not be triangulated when SD22 sends messages through H.
4. I will be direct with SD22 when she is physically inside my personal space
5. I will not text with SD22 or respond to her calls
6. I will not solve problems for SD22 that she can solve herself
7. I will not allow SD22's crises or dramas hijack my schedule
8. I will call 911 if she has a psychotic break unless someone puts together a different safety plan that the family is asked to follow.

Oof. When I write it down like that it looks ...  rigid.

I'm trying to change enabling behaviors on my part. For the most part, I have been following H's lead -- he cannot say no to SD22. I was picking up a lot of the pieces.

I have been working hard to not pick up those pieces anymore. Lots of limits, ones that I have control over.

One thing I asked H is to please check with me before saying yes to overnight guests. There is an assumption that we do not ever say no to SD22 because she's chronically suicidal and now, in particular, she is going through a big life transition (graduating college, starting a career). Meaning, I am strong so I need to carry this with him. SD22 is a victim, we need to protect her. Protecting her means never saying no.

[livednlearned]

After reading the thread again I'm curious to know more about how the T came to believe it was inappropriate.

She is a somatic experiencing therapist, trained to observe non-verbal cues in the body -- short version: she lasered in on my relationship with SD22 and wondered aloud if she was BPD based on how I was responding physically. Go figure.

SD22 is chronically suicidal and T was alarmed that H is going full ostrich. We codependents have a talent for magical thinking  

I have pushed the needle on that particular issue and shone some light on it, mostly so SD25 is not left to think she is handling this alone. And also to make sure we are not managing H's emotions. Just because looking away is easier for H does not mean things are getting handled.

[formflier]

Oh my...the chronically suicidal part...small detail I missed.  I'm sorry, that's got to be tough...especially with ostriches around you.

Hopefully it's helpful to challenge a few of the items on your list.  Perhaps looking at them differently can reveal a new path.

1. I will say no to things that H suggests I do with SD22, especially in front of her

I would split this into 2 things, since there are two issues here.  

1.  You and hubby should be able to discuss anything in private.
2.  You and hubby should present a united front to children in public.

So, for number 1 I would suggest being open and asking questions.  Especially the kind of questions that "put him first" and the kind of questions/suggestions that make ostriches uncomfortable.

Let's assume your hubby says in private "hey...can you take SD22 flower shopping for a couple hours."

you "How would that improve her mental health (or other label)?"

Let's assume he gives a reasonable answer.  you "Ahh..I see, today doesn't work so I'm hoping you can cover the flower shopping.  (then before he can answer)  You know I've got time on Friday, if you can x y and z with SD22 before then I'll take her to Starbucks for a chat."  (guess what...x y and z would be things Hubby is reluctant to do..but should be doing to support his daughter)

Basically...a way of saying "you first" and then you offer a supporting role.

2. I will say no to hiking, walking the dog with H and SD22 (things get weird)

We deserve stories...this has to be interesting.

3. I will not be triangulated when SD22 sends messages through H.
4. I will be direct with SD22 when she is physically inside my personal space

Solid

5. I will not text with SD22 or respond to her calls

What if you flipped this and started initiating.  Of course...the subjects you would bring up are healthy and likely stuff she has ZERO interest in discussing with you.  Or if she does discuss...something good may come of it.

For her reaching out to you.  Answer on your own time and before you answer what she has brought up, show interest in discussing issues she has avoided (the healthy stuff above)

End result:  She gets better or she is avoiding you...instead of you avoiding her.  

6. I will not solve problems for SD22 that she can solve herself
7. I will not allow SD22's crises or dramas hijack my schedule

Solid!

8. I will call 911 if she has a psychotic break unless someone puts together a different safety plan that the family is asked to follow.

Has this happened before?  Calling 911 and/or psychotic breaks.

Oof. When I write it down like that it looks ...  rigid.

I'm a fan of "thoughtful rigidity"...of course after you have carefully thought things through.

The interesting thing resulting from this in my relationship is that my wife is often reactive or "dealing with" my "rigidity", rather than me dealing with her crazy.

I'm trying to change enabling behaviors on my part. For the most part, I have been following H's lead -- he cannot say no to SD22. I was picking up a lot of the pieces.

Interesting.  Can you give a quick example of what he didn't say no to...the calamity that ensued...and the pieces you picked up?

 There is an assumption that we do not ever say no to SD22 because she's chronically suicidal and now, in particular, she is going through a big life transition (graduating college, starting a career).

This seems to be handing power to the suicidal person.  She can't be told no?  Does your hubby take direction for her mental health team.  I could see this in the short term and only under the direction of her caregivers as they try to transition her to a better situation.

Meaning, I am strong so I need to carry this with him. SD22 is a victim, we need to protect her. Protecting her means never saying no.

Perhaps you mistyped.  I would suggest never saying no is enabling.

In the FF household we train our kids with the value that you have to be able to handle a no, before we can ever hand out a yes.

So...if a no brings a tantrum, we don't even consider a yes.  The maturity obviously isn't there.

FF

[livednlearned]

1.  You and hubby should be able to discuss anything in private.
2.  You and hubby should present a united front to children in public.

We have number 1 in pretty good shape, other than the topic of SD22 coming to stay whenever it suits her. The only time I feel sidelined is when he announces that SD22 is coming, or when he suggests that I do something with SD22. This next visit will be an experiment to see if a) he suggests outings for SD22 and me, and if he does, then b) do I say nah. In front of SD22.

Number 2 is complicated by the blended family dynamic. I only recently introduced the limit of consulting me before saying yes to house guests and so far it's been a bust. The next step is for me to deal directly with SD22 and tell her Hey, H didn't consult with me and it turns out that's not a good weekend. Here are weeks that work better: xyz.

We deserve stories...this has to be interesting.

Interesting only on the weird end of the spectrum. H and I walk the dog every night and chit chat with neighbors. H is a hand holder, something I literally had to work through in therapy 7 years ago. We now hold hands.   Not all the time, but we do it.

First summer, SD22 (then 20) moves in and goes walking with us and ... holds H's hand. I look over and see H holding both of our hands and have a small coronary. I drop my hand. H continues to walk holding SD22's hand. Lots of talk about holding hands follows in therapy, what is and is not appropriate with SD22. H digs deep and admits he is weirded out by the hand holding with SD22 and stops it, not without resistance from SD22.

Then new things appear to replace the hand holding. If we stop and talk to neighbors, SD22 leans against H, like a little kid might do. Tugging on his arm, reaching for his hand, pulling at his sleeve. It's awkward. H feels awkward. I feel awkward. She's not a socially skilled person to begin with.

At home, she started to rush H at the door when he came home from work. Hugging him hard and not letting him go or letting him put his stuff down. He literally had to pin her arms down and be stern with her. Our T said, "H needs to stop SD22 from greeting before he has a chance to say hi to LnL." The goal was for H to say, "Let me say hi to LnL and then let's you and I sit down and you can tell me about your day." SD22 turned it into a battle of wills and to me it felt like a *mean* game, if that makes sense. She would be aggressive, and laughing, but dead serious that she is going to get H to greet her first at the door and not move toward me until she's decided it's ok. We're talking toddler dynamics.

What if you flipped this and started initiating.

 

Initiating got me into a codependent bind and I'm struggling to understand what's happening. I made a lot of effort to develop a relationship with SD22 and in effect made things so easy for H that he began to unload some of the burden on me. Somehow this got away from me.

It is a chore to talk to SD22. She is extremely needy, and H wants relief. One time, H and I were going to hike together. He announced that SD22 and her also awkward BF were going to join us and I politely backed out. My new limit is that if I am not consulted, I will tap out. H's reaction was one of agitation. He wants me to help alleviate the strain. "Please have 20 minutes of awkward conversation with me and SD22 and BF when we get back."

Then SD22 feels like she *won* because she interrupted the usual hike routine. So she asked me to spend time together and it had a splitting feel to it. The obvious fix would be that we three go hiking together another time, but SD22 instead wants one-on-one with H and one-on-one with me.

I have tried to spend a lot of time with her and give her lots of time to help her be more regulated when she's here ... and somehow got myself into a door mat position. It feels like I have ceded ground and she is emboldened because she *got* something. She is winning.

I hate that I'm in this power dynamic. I'm trying to step outside the game. It's uncomfortable to write it out.

For her reaching out to you.  Answer on your own time and before you answer what she has brought up, show interest in discussing issues she has avoided (the healthy stuff above)

My T's response is, Hell no to texting with SD22.  

SD22 blows up everyone's phone. It's a thing. I prefer to be someone who isn't reliably going to text back. I have a history with my ex (n/BPD) who engaged in over-the-top texting. So I'm sticking to what's best for me, although I completely recognize that this is my thing and the healthier me would engage in reasonable texting with SD22. I appreciate the pro tip  

Has this happened before?  Calling 911 and/or psychotic breaks.

She had a psychotic episode (age 16) and has called her psychiatrist before re: suicidal ideation. She had a relatively serious episode of SI last year. Recently, she reported paranoia so severe it seemed psychotic. She told H it was not like the first episode of psychosis. To me, they are both serious signs. Having to ask the question means she is in unstable territory.

Long story short, we are in a very slow process to develop a safety plan. I want H to lead and to his credit he is listening and trying to explore all options. He is going to strategically insist? guide? influence? SD22 to get a thorough adult psychiatric evaluation. What she had at 16 was basically a conversation with a psychiatrist. H is also asking to do a family meeting (just H and SD22) with her T this summer. We'll see how that goes. My T recommended that we do something called the WRAP program together (to support mentally ill family members). Unfortunately the classes happen on a night I can't make it.

Can you give a quick example of what he didn't say no to...the calamity that ensued...and the pieces you picked up?

I asked H to (at the very least) say to his kids, "Let me check with LnL" when they want to move in, come visit, etc. He has not been able to do that. We had all three kids here for Christmas, including their uBPD mom's parents. All of this was arranged without consulting me.

Another example: H told me SD22 is coming on weekend day/date, and her BF is going to be here. I say, "Pick another weekend, that's the date when you're at the beach with guys, and I'm having friends here all afternoon." H cannot say no to SD22, even when her plans are not convenient for us. Instead of saying no to SD22, H ends his weekend with the guys early to make sure he is home in time to head SD22 off. Or head me off. I had said that if SD22 or BF arrive before 6pm, I will ask them to come back after 6pm when the house is open for business. H is afraid of me saying no to SD22 because then he codependently feels he has to deal with her feelings, and his own. The calamity for me is that she has the manners of a toddler, it's all about her -- I have people over and want it to be about the group and there is no privacy or sensibility that SD22 is overstepping or being loud or taking up space to make it about her.

She can't be told no?  Does your hubby take direction for her mental health team.  I could see this in the short term and only under the direction of her caregivers as they try to transition her to a better situation.

Not only can she not be told no by him, he would prefer no one says no. I am admittedly not great at being direct with SD22 although getting better. Work in progress.

We've made a ton of progress as a blended family and I'm proud of where we are. I am becoming more strategic in my own limit setting, communicating things in a way that are concrete for H to understand rather than just saying, "SD22 has no boundaries, can you do xyz." He is working hard. I feel heard ... maybe things aren't happening as quickly as I would like but I know how hard these changes are to make.

T feels that SD22 being here when H is working is a serious overstep on his part, and that given her mental health and aggressions toward me, she cannot be in the home without him present. Period.

As you can probably imagine, changing the ways things have always been done is really hard mid-course.  

[formflier]

So...wow!

I'm scratching my head. 

You have a massive ball of twine of relationships with rules or no rules.

It's important to figure out where to start. 

I suppose I'd have to say getting you and hubby on the same page...errr...same book at least.

Look, I don't have any direct experience with blended families.  I do have lots of experience "managing" the dynamics of two very different families (mine and my wife's).

Essentially I'm voluntarily estranged from my wife's family (image a bunch of BPDish women doing their thing).  My life and my marriage are so much better, calmer now.

I don't in anyway try to control or influence my wife's relationship with them and she hasn't asked me to do anything with them in a year or so. 

Our home is where my wife and I do "our" thing.  From time to time I've gone other places and she has had her family over to do things.

Long winded way of saying I can't imagine you will make any progress until you guys are in the same book about how your family home will work with guests.

Is that where you think you should "start?

FF

[AnuDay]

Hi LivednLearned,
I got a little confused with this thread.  Does SD22 mean Stepdaughter?  I didn't know you had a stepdaughter that old.  I enjoy reading this thread.  It's humorous.  I know the older we get the less we want to deal with so I imagine you have a low tolerance for these BPD antics.  Your SD's husband is in for a real surprise in a few years.  I wish him luck.  Does your SD22 live with you? 

[sweetheart]

A few things jump out at me:-

Your T is holding a really firm rigid boundary for you, because she is aware that the boundary is much more nuanced for you. I wonder if further exploration of why she is holding this boundary so absolutely for you might free up some space for you to disentangle yourself from what sounds like FOG with your SD.

Are these areas that you have sat down and spoken about specifically with your SD?
If not, for someone with her history and mental health issues, a written contract might be effective. The contract could be put together by you, your h and your SD.
Is your son’s autism impacted by your SD’s behaviours in the house?

The contract could also be undertaken in liaison with your SD T.

It sounds like there is a lot at stake for her were you to let her go completely, that is an immense amount of responsibility that reading between the lines maybe not just about the difficulties faced by blended families.
Your personal history here with BPD is highly significant for me in what you have written which brings me full circle back to the boundary your T is holding for you.

[worriedStepmom]

I needed to hear this, for my own situation, so thank you. 

maybe things aren't happening as quickly as I would like but I know how hard these changes are to make.

Is your husband also in therapy?  I can't imagine the stress of having a child with suicidal ideations or psychosis.  I can see how some parents would find it impossible to say no after that...and how he'd want her to have some supervision (you) if he's out of town and worried about her.  Having a safety plan might help alleviate some of his anxiety.  He needs to figure out another way to manage his anxiety, too, because you can't - shouldn't - do it anymore.

It's going to be hard for you to set those boundaries with SD.  Is your H going to back you up or are you going to get the change-back just as strongly from him as from SD?  Or, worse, will he deliberately undermine your efforts?  I'd work with your therapist on the framework of how to deal with H, too, as you change your interactions with SD.

[livednlearned]

I wonder if further exploration of why she is holding this boundary so absolutely for you might free up some space for you to disentangle yourself from what sounds like FOG with your SD.

Rescuing/saving/fixing/appeasing/pleasing H so he likes me better.   . That's the naked truth, although masked to a certain extent.

I know it's nuts.

I did this for my parents to help them manage BPD brother. I continued the training with n/BPDx husband. That's been over for 9 years (!) I seem to be still up to my old tricks.

Are these areas that you have sat down and spoken about specifically with your SD?

It's coming. Right now, my plan is to support H in his attempt to get a full evaluation done so we can shine some light in the shadows. To get us into therapy. To encourage him to have a meeting with her T. Then I make my move  

for someone with her history and mental health issues, a written contract might be effective. The contract could be put together by you, your h and your SD.

I like that idea. This all started when SD25 told me that SD22 texts regularly with "I'm having those thoughts again." SD25 was feeling like a parent, overwhelmed and not sure how to deal. I don't want to meddle in their dynamic, but of course I do.

So I asked permission to tell H about the texts and then we talked about having a safety plan for SD22 that the three of us (H, SD25, me) follow if things go sideways with SD22.

Is your son’s autism impacted by your SD’s behaviours in the house?

S17 keeps a super low profile. He's pretty guarded. You could call him one big walking boundary.

The contract could also be undertaken in liaison with your SD T.

That's the dream goal. SD22 just graduated college and is looking for a job so there is some regular up-in-the-air uncertainty in play that is making it a bit harder for us to lock things down.

It sounds like there is a lot at stake for her were you to let her go completely, that is an immense amount of responsibility that reading between the lines maybe not just about the difficulties faced by blended families.

Letting her go?

Your personal history here with BPD is highly significant for me in what you have written which brings me full circle back to the boundary your T is holding for you.

I'm one of those codependent types who doesn't notice the water boiling until the kettle's screaming. I have had to learn to reach deep and recognize distress when it starts, not when I'm well on my way to coping mechanisms. The combination of blended families, my own stuff, and the growing complexity of SD22 has been a real test, no joke.

Does SD22 mean Stepdaughter?  I didn't know you had a stepdaughter that old.

Yep. Step daughter. 22 going on 3.

Does your SD22 live with you?  

She's been away at college, 6.5 hours from us. She lived with us for the last two summers, and comes down every holiday and a lot of weekends. SD25 has been living with us for a year or so while she attends graduate school. S17 lives with us too. There is SS19 who lives with his mom, 5 hours away. He has only been here once.  

It's important to figure out where to start.

With my team, here. My team of coaches  

I'm voluntarily estranged from my wife's family (image a bunch of BPDish women doing their thing).

This is kind of how I am with SD22 outside the home. I don't get involved in their family stuff when it happens (BPD mom involved) and it feels great.

I think all signs are pointing to me and H in therapy, even though it feels like we are nailing it in so many other ways.

[AnuDay]

22 going on 3...Oh my! This sounds like a hornets nest!  I'm starting to understand the thread now.  Maybe once SD22 finds a job she will change a bit.  It's horribly stressful on young people out of college without jobs...even functioning ones. 

...And SD22 is married? And you're planning an intervention while she is living with you?

[sweetheart]

[quote author=livednlearned link=topic=336702.msg13054424#msg13054424 date=

I think all signs are pointing to me and H in therapy, even though it feels like we are nailing it in so many other ways.
[/quote]

this ^^^^ 

By 'letting go' I mean letting go of how much you are accommodating your SD emotionally.

[formflier]

Are you and H able to talk openly about this, yet there is no follow through on his part?

or

Does he shut down, get defensive...etc etc.

Said/asked another way.  Has he heard (and can he reflect back) your point of view as clearly as we have heard it on here.

FF

[livednlearned]

By 'letting go' I mean letting go of how much you are accommodating your SD emotionally.

I think I'm getting a B+ on letting go emotionally of her never-ending dramas and crises and how she affects H. When he mentions her, I do a lot of head nodding and politely divert the conversation to something else.

When it comes to being more assertive with SD22 directly, I am probably a D right now.

Back in the beginning of her living with us, I put a lot of effort into filling my cup so I could be more emotionally centered for her. I would initiate outings with her when I felt emotionally prepared and for a while that seemed to be productive.

I also have some hiding or fleeing strategies, basically. I created a private space for myself in the house, put on headphones, go out with friends, run errands, etc. when she is here. I've also just up and left to visit with friends in other states. This is the part that concerns T.

This spring I had a conversation with H about consulting me when it comes to SD22, and my thoughts that we need a safety plan. That SD25 is dealing with the same thing, alone, and is afraid. Things are a lot more on the table, out in the open. We are getting healthier, slowly.

I guess what I'm trying to sort out now is how to set limits with her visits. It's partly being assertive with SD22. It's also being assertive with H about his own kid, in his own home, a kid who has a lot of issues, meanwhile my kid with (very different issues) is living here, supported lovingly by H.

Maybe once SD22 finds a job she will change a bit.

I hope that's true AnuDay. I can't shake the feeling that she's about to trade up to a bigger crisis once she confronts the realities of a working environment.

...And SD22 is married? And you're planning an intervention while she is living with you?

She has a boyfriend who lives 3 hours south of us. SD22 lives 6 hours to the north, so they meet here.  

I'm not sure there will be a planned intervention. It is getting harder for others to pretend that this can be managed within the family, so I see H and SD25 communicating more openly about SD22. I am trying to sit on my hands a bit and at the same time feeding some options to H to see what he grabs onto.

Has he heard (and can he reflect back) your point of view as clearly as we have heard it on here.

Yes. We communicate well. Although, his emotions and fears intensify when talking about SD22 and he can feel overwhelmed, just as mine can when discussing S17. Anyone know how intense emotions affect thinking raise your hand.  

I am learning that how I set limits are important. They need to be concrete. They have to have built-in consequences so that he recognizes he has choices, as do I.

Saying that SD22 cannot come here to stay unless H is not working is a rule, not a limit. It's trickier to do. I'm conflicted about it.

[formflier]

Saying that SD22 cannot come here to stay unless H is not working is a rule, not a limit. It's trickier to do. I'm conflicted about it.

I'm going to suggest this isn't a good rule or limit. 

Since you communicate well, why not discuss her visits and agree to them when the work for you as a couple?

Sometimes that might be when he is working...sometimes not.  I got a vibe that you were not the happiest about communication surrounding this issue.

Am I on the right track?

FF

[livednlearned]

Since you communicate well, why not discuss her visits and agree to them when the work for you as a couple?

We haven't made headway.

Is it a fair request?

It was hard to bring it up, and I did. It was met with a very polite version of hell no.

He tells SD22 in advance that I will be busy working, he will be busy working, SD25 will be busy working. It has not yet registered that she cannot help herself from rolling over boundaries. Her needs are too intense and immediate and urgent.

Imagine saying to one of your kids, You cannot stay here unless both mom and dad are here. The other kids, it's ok.

[formflier]

 

It was hard to bring it up, and I did. It was met with a very polite version of hell no.
 

Can you go into more details? 

If it was something like she will stay here regardless of your feelings LNL...then that's just as bad as you trying to tell him she can never stay here regardless of his feelings. 

It's clear she no longer "lives" there.  So...I assume the door is locked...and that takes care of boundaries if she doesn't coordinate showing up when someone is home.

Totally get it there is likely a bunch more nuance.  I'm focused more on you and hubby...rather than SD at the moment.

I'll hush and wait for clarification.

It is reasonable that an adult has input on other adults coming and going from their home.

Compromise..

FF

[livednlearned]

If it was something like she will stay here regardless of your feelings LNL...then that's just as bad as you trying to tell him she can never stay here regardless of his feelings.

 

Oof. It was said with more love but yes, essentially it's "No one is looking out for SD22 except me. Everyone is pushing her away. How do I say my own kid can't stay when her sister is living here?"

Which of course I'm not asking. I'm not saying "SD22 can't stay here, ever." I'm saying please consult me first. When and if I'm consulted, then I want to be able to say, "You're working 10 of those 14 days. How about she comes down the day before you're off work and heads back up once your break is over."

His panic button activates whenever we discuss SD22 and boundaries. I suspect he is terrified she will act on her suicidal ideation.

I have to remember that H is not caught up with me when it comes to BPD. He's made a lot of progress. We have made a lot of progress. This one piece is tricky.

[formflier]

So...I was deliberately dichotomous in my presentation of the issue.  I figured by doing that I would illicit the actual nuance of the situation, because I was quite sure (given what I know about you and your history here) that you were not "sitting at an extreme end" of this issue.

Sorry I got an "oof" out of that...please "un oof" yourself.  I'm convinced you are sitting on a reasonable position with many...many pathways to compromise.

Ask yourself...what compromise has your hubby offered?  (not trying to beat him up here...but trying to get to the heart of the communication issue here...so you can "see" it)
.

 

Oof. It was said with more love but yes, essentially it's "No one is looking out for SD22 except me. Everyone is pushing her away. How do I say my own kid can't stay when her sister is living here?"

Has he actually said the bolded words?  Can you share the actual words he has used..as close as possible.?

Which of course I'm not asking. I'm not saying "SD22 can't stay here, ever." I'm saying please consult me first.

Have you said exactly this to him?  How many times?  When he reflects back that you are saying something else (I'm guessing he "goes to the extreme" due to emotions)...are you able to clarify again what you are actually saying?

When and if I'm consulted, then I want to be able to say, "You're working 10 of those 14 days. How about she comes down the day before you're off work and heads back up once your break is over."

So...what does he say to you presenting it that way?

His panic button activates whenever we discuss SD22 and boundaries. I suspect he is terrified she will act on her suicidal ideation.

Completely understandable...don't you think? 

How are you doing going to a place of empathy on this? 

It's hard to gauge how empathetic people are on these boards, so I'll just say that I often have problems being empathetic with "BPDish" or "unreasonable" behavior, especially if it impacts me.  (I wouldn't do well in your shoes right now...)

I suspect doubling down on your empathy is the "center of gravity" for you to move forward and for you to lead your blended family to a better place on this. 

Asked another way...left to his own devices...what are the chances your hubby will lead his daughter to a better place (let alone the entire family)?

I have to remember that H is not caught up with me when it comes to BPD. He's made a lot of progress. We have made a lot of progress.

You are being kind about the bolded part.  Given your history here, prior relationships and time spent with excellent Ts...you are uniquely qualified for the position you find yourself in.

This one piece is tricky.

Not really...

It's uncomfortable but are the values and pathways to better mental health (for everyone) really "tricky" or "obscure"? 

This is worth breaking down into tricky for you and/or tricky for hubby.  It's far less tricky for him because he is sitting at the extreme.  Is there really a pathway for him to "give in more"?  (if there is..please explain in detail)

Compare that to your position?  How many pathways can you take?

I realize this is getting long...I've been through a couple cups of coffee...   

Let's circle back to empathy.  I believe that will help him "hear" you.  My caution, and likely something to practice/talk through with your T is how to switch from "communication based" empathy to empathizing with him when it's hard for him to act and not letting empathy be confused with sending a message of inaction being OK

Also...clarify with your T, specifically talking about the suicidal ideation history, if inaction on your part is "ethical", "healthy" or otherwise OK.  (it may be...or it may not be) 

Since I am not as highly trained as a T...I default to pushing people to action because of the consequences of suicide (no do overs).  There are people with appropriate training to talk you through this.

Finally...I can't imagine working through this will be a net positive for your "energy levels" or "outlook" on life.  This is a big deal..will take lots of focus...not easy.  Therefor remember to double your self care routine, even it you don't feel you need it.  You will...trust me.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

please "un oof" yourself.

 

Ask yourself...what compromise has your hubby offered?

The compromises exist in related issues, I guess. In the right direction:

He tells SD22, "LnL will be busy. She's doing x." Trying to relieve pressure on me to entertain.
He is insisting that he and SD22 go see her T together (long overdue).
He has told SD22 that BF cannot arrive before she does.
He has respected things I suggested above, like, No walking together. No hikes.
We plan date nights when SD22 is here. He is great about that.
He bends over to accommodate SD22 and I say, Wait a sec. He compromises.

I am getting better at saying, That doesn't work.
He is getting better at meeting me halfway when that happens.

Can you share the actual words he has used..as close as possible

"Nobody is defending SD22 except me. She's being pushed away by everyone, her mom, her grandma, her brother. And everyone is expecting me to fix her, and I'm limited in what I can do. I validate her, I point out when she's applying skills she's learning from T to deal with her anxieties. She sees BF only when he's got a day off and it makes sense to meet here and it brings her some positive relief. There won't be anyone sharing her apartment this summer, and she has nothing to do in town x because she's graduated and looking for jobs. If she's here, we can see her T together and talk about a full evaluation. I will tell her you are busy and not to expect that you or SD25 can do anything with her, that she has to entertain herself. Also, she has interviews and some praxis exams so her time here will be broken up by those things when she finds out dates. She is high maintenance and you are good to her and we're in a big transition right now. I need your support and I'll do my best to minimize the strain when she's here."

Have you said exactly this to him?  How many times?  When he reflects back that you are saying something else (I'm guessing he "goes to the extreme" due to emotions)...are you able to clarify again what you are actually saying?

Good question. The most consistent thing I say is, "Please consult me when arranging these visits. At the very least, please say that you will check with LnL." There is much history here with me asking for change. I think SD22 conversations all roll into one for him.

I have said before, "We cannot arrange our lives around the BF's work schedule." He has rationalized why it makes sense, minimizing imo. I have said, "It is straight up nuts that Jiffy Lube gets to decide when BF comes to stay."

In retrospect, I need to focus on what I'm asking and stick to it. No switching topics. "I am asking you to consult me."

So...what does he say to you presenting it that way?

I haven't been that direct yet. He is kicking the can down the road, saying that this is a transitional summer for SD22. Which it is. It's also a pattern and I suspect it will come up unless we move beyond driving distance.

Completely understandable...don't you think?  How are you doing going to a place of empathy on this?

 

I probably over empathize on this, if anything. S17 had SI when he was 8. So not my first rodeo. I also know from reading about BPD that it's dangerous to allow SI to run the family. If it's the sure way to get things, she will escalate it. H and I both agree it's scary. We have different ideas about how to manage it. And quite bluntly, he put his head in the sand. I have gently tried to tell him what things look like when he's underground. The problem does not go away. I meddled on this one, and got SD25 and H talking more openly, no secrets, no splitting. Get a plan together, reassure SD25 that he's aware what's going on.

left to his own devices...what are the chances your hubby will lead his daughter to a better place (let alone the entire family)?

He tends to wait until things impact him directly (like when he's her target) and then picks up suggestions from me. There is usually exasperation and anger, not surprisingly. Not the greatest time to be putting together an action plan but there you have it. Then later we talk about it calmly and I validate whatever he's now willing to go forward with, "It makes sense to insist on going to her T together. If you ask permission, she will likely say no."

are the values and pathways to better mental health (for everyone) really "tricky" or "obscure"?

Like a lot of codependent-y people, I am a sucker for what's fair. It doesn't feel fair to me to ask something of H that would never fly for me. If H said, S17 needs to be out of here in six months, I would be feeling how H is feeling. I over identify with his feelings.

Is there really a pathway for him to "give in more"?  (if there is..please explain in detail)

This thread has been really helpful in making me realize that the ask is actually, "Please consult me." I have to refine my message  

My caution, and likely something to practice/talk through with your T is how to switch from "communication based" empathy to empathizing with him when it's hard for him to act and not letting empathy be confused with sending a message of inaction being OK

Exactly. I really care about him. I love the guy   and want to support him but not at the expense of contorting myself to abide unhealthy behaviors. This is kind of black belt territory, I feel.

clarify with your T, specifically talking about the suicidal ideation history, if inaction on your part is "ethical", "healthy" or otherwise OK.

This piece I have made headway on. Right now we have a loose safety plan and are trying to get into a class (to support mentally ill loved ones with SI) that runs on nights we can attend.

Therefor remember to double your self care routine, even it you don't feel you need it.  You will...trust me.

I got this one covered  

[formflier]

 If she's here, we can see her T together and talk about a full evaluation.

OK...logistics.  She lives hours away, yet she can see T if she is not where she lives.  Hmm.  Where is her T?


 

 "I am asking you to consult me."

That's a good message to focus...perhaps a better message.  At this point I'm doubtful it's "best" (good, better, best scale)

Likely something to keep working through here...but you are right to have a succinct message such as what you have proposed.



  

 I meddled on this one

Appropriately so I might add.  Typically "meddling" has a negative connotation...this is one that you (and others reading this thread) should have absolute clarity is a good (healthy) place to "meddle".

 "It makes sense to insist on going to her T together. If you ask permission, she will likely say no."

What is the history here?  She is an adult, yet she needs support from home.  

One thing you should talk through with hubby is to realize that at the moment you guys have "leverage" to move this to a healthier place.  At the same time...both of you guys and Ts need to focus on minimizing how much she feels "controlled".  

 If H said, S17 needs to be out of here in six months, I would be feeling how H is feeling. I over identify with his feelings.

Hmmm...not sure how much you though this through...but I'm going to throw the BS flag on this one.  This is not Apples to Apples.  She doesn't live there...your son does.  Your son is a minor..she is not.  

Apples to apples would be your son going to college and he is persnickety about his visits home...and wants to put some limits on them (not banning them).

This thread has been really helpful in making me realize that the ask is actually, "Please consult me."  

Yes...but...I think the message should be more towards "Please compromise with me"

Consult is closer to "inform" that compromise.  (I'm words guy...is your hubby a "words guy")  Consult really doesn't mean "change" or "be flexible".

Whereas "compromise" obviously signals that his original idea is unlikely to "survive" the discussion with LnL intact.  Perhaps it will be better.  Think synergy..rather than yes/no.

Somehow I think there is a better word than compromise...but it's escaping me.  Combine compromise and synergy.  

When you and hubby work this out together...it's better than either one of you individually.  That's a winning attitude.

Wrapping up and trying to boil down to the most important thing for next visit (next talk with hubby as well):  I obviously see there is much I don't understand about her T situation.

However...with SI in the mix and all the changes coming up...a plan is important.

I can't imagine...again..I can't imagine any good plan coming out of a process that doesn't involve her T AND that involves her parents (not just singular).

What is status of bio mom?  Any other parental figures around other that your hubby and YOU?

I'm speculating now...but it's safe to say she needs an involved and healthy Dad (and it would seem that path is being walked)

It's also safe to say she needs good female role models...(oh..you see this coming...keep reading the thread...)

I wonder who?...hmm...so much today seems to be just beyond my grasp.  If I could only think of a good female role model...

Perhaps it will come to me.  Any thoughts?

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

 Where is her T?

She has one in town x (college T). She has another longer term T in our town. This T has said for licensing reasons she cannot be SD22's crisis responder.

 What is the history here?  She is an adult, yet she needs support from home.

 

Candidly? I was doing a lot more emotional work for H and I pulled back. Like all the way back. Whether he is aware or not, because I've backed out, our relationship is better and his relationship with SD22 is ... harder. Unless he specifically asks, I treat his commentary about SD22 as venting and provide validation, usually brief.

 both of you guys and Ts need to focus on minimizing how much she feels "controlled".

 

I get it. H can also leverage things now because SD22's anxiety is at a 10 and her neediness is at an 11. It's up to him how to understand things in terms of control.

 Apples to apples would be your son going to college and he is persnickety about his visits home...and wants to put some limits on them (not banning them).

It's the voice in the back of my head, "You can't ask for x because he is doing y for you." It's not right, and it's still there 

 Consult is closer to "inform" that compromise.  (I'm words guy...is your hubby a "words guy")  Consult really doesn't mean "change" or "be flexible".

I think he knows I'm asking to be included. I'm asking him to consider my feelings. We are not ones to lock horns, so to speak. For now, it's about shifting the dynamic so that I'm equal to him, so consult with me, his partner. At a minimum. There may be times when it's not great for SD22 to be here.

Like SD25. She wants her BF to come visit. She asked me if it was ok, and I said, Thanks for asking. I really appreciate it. Can you guys try to arrange it so BF arrives after S17's surgery? I'll be managing some anxiety about S17 and it will be easier if there's one less body here."

 What is status of bio mom?  Any other parental figures around other that your hubby and YOU?

Bio mom is BPD. 

There is a grandma (BPD mom's mom) who is involved.

 It's also safe to say she needs good female role models...

My T's thoughts are that I have to close some loopholes and get my hands fully around the situation first. SD22 is socially awkward in a way that I'm not sure we'll ever have a close bond, tho I know she sees me as a resource and that our home is as safe as one can be for someone with BPD traits. Her aggression with me is covert so I have had to be on my toes. In the beginning I ceded way too much turf trying to give her some roots and underestimated how fundamentally fearful and needy she is. I think she perceives that as her winning, me losing. Give her an inch she takes ten miles kind of thing.

Validation has been good. Detaching with love has been pretty good. Setting limits has been hit or miss, getting better.

It would be easiest if I took SD22 aside and said, Hey, big changes ahead for you! Let me know when you want to come so I'm in the loop, k? That way we can make sure both of our calendars are clear."

Sounds so easy. I am too much of a weenie on this one to say those words just yet 

[GaGrl]

I've spent significant time in my career in career counseling, talent acquisition, etc.  Similar to you, I suspect that her limited social skills is keeping her from coming across strongly in job interviews.

Do you know if the school systems are using scenario-based interview formats, such as -- "One of the important aspects of teaching is managing relationships with parents, and sometimes we need to communicate difficult information for the parent to hear. Tell me about a time you needed to communicate a message that was negative -- what was the situation, what did you do/say, and what was the result?"

 She may need practice on mock interviews. These type of job interview structures can be stressful for anyone!

[livednlearned]

She may need practice on mock interviews. These type of job interview structures can be stressful for anyone!

So true!

H has been fielding the minutiae around job interviews with SD22. And her grandma does career counseling for people 50 and over, so she has been helping.

I tend to not offer advice unless asked, and H is pretty aware that SD22 needs help in that department. She needs it a little more than most. I may ask H if he knows what parts of the interview she is struggling with and see what he thinks is going on.

[formflier]

Ask her about her opinion on her "soft skills".  See what she says...if she even knows what that is.

FF

[wendydarling]

Long story short, we are in a very slow process to develop a safety plan. I want H to lead and to his credit he is listening and trying to explore all options. He is going to strategically insist? guide? influence? SD22 to get a thorough adult psychiatric evaluation. What she had at 16 was basically a conversation with a psychiatrist. H is also asking to do a family meeting (just H and SD22) with her T this summer. We'll see how that goes.

Sounds like you've been a busy LnL    An adult evaluation! What's happening for SD22 now.

Are SD22 and SD25 in the same boat, staying the summer applying for jobs, move on when they get jobs?

His panic button activates whenever we discuss SD22 and boundaries. I suspect he is terrified she will act on her suicidal ideation.

You are likely right LnL. Is H trying to say he can only cope with moving on one thing at a time and at this time it's the ongoing chronic SI? If that's the case, how do you feel about that?

[livednlearned]

An adult evaluation! What's happening for SD22 now.

She seems chronically dysregulated, not just to me. Altho she does seem to be able to present as *normal,* except that the overarching theme is one of extreme stress, anxiety, neediness. For example: Active SI (with SD25) "I'm having those thoughts again," paranoia "People are looking at me through the windows so I had to close the blinds and sit in the dark; people on the street are giving me mean looks because I bought a milkshake (SD22 has weight/body issues); a guy at the interview made a big deal about which door to go out, he was trying to make me go out the wrong door."

She is calling H 4-5 times a day, emotions all over the place. Somatic complaints. Strings of text threads that would make your head spin  . Her BPD mom, brother, grandmother have all called H to say, "SD22 keeps showing up here unannounced, and even comes when we say we're busy, not a good weekend, can you do something." Her long-term T (in our town) said to H while we were driving in the car (speakerphone ) that she had to set a firm boundary with SD22 about calling her while in crisis (licensing issues when responding to crises across state lines or something).

Some students in her program already have jobs. We are crossing fingers and toes that SD22 gets something by August.

Are SD22 and SD25 in the same boat, staying the summer applying for jobs, move on when they get jobs?

SD25 is officially living here and has been for the past year or so. She is applying for jobs and studying for her board exams while doing an intense clinical rotation (physical therapy).

SD22 has a lease on her apartment in her college town until August. She's not technically living here, she's mainly staying when it suits her.

Is H trying to say he can only cope with moving on one thing at a time and at this time it's the ongoing chronic SI? If that's the case, how do you feel about that?

I've always been a pro at putting other people's needs first  So H needing to move slowly and me slow-walking alongside him is pretty much status quo here. I'm learning to celebrate the tiny little changes  . It's ok if things don't happen on my schedule, I do need things to move forward tho.

If SD22 does not get a job by August (special ed teacher), then I predict we will have a much bigger crisis on our hands.

To add another variable, H and I may be moving this year. We both agree that now is not the time to tell SD22 this. And when we do tell her, I predict rocky waters.

Reading this thread over and sizing up our situation (realistically) makes me realize that for now, the best I might get is insisting that H consult me when it comes to SD22's schedule. She has to drive north for her mom's wedding early June so I will ask to be consulted about her return dates and how long she stays. Wish me luck

Meanwhile, we're trying to get into this class and find a counselor for me and H. I know how hard it is to find a good one so I won't be surprised if the timeline for all this is fall, even though I want it to happen yesterday.