Tired of dealing with my BPD sister, any help?

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Hi,

After many years of abuse and managing my sister, who has BPD, I've reached a point where I'm seriously contemplating cutting her off.
 
A bit of background. We have a fairly dsyfunctional family. My dad has OCD and my mom has a form of OCPD. My sister has always been jealous of me (I'm 2 years younger). She's always felt that I'm loved more (especially by my mother). I've typically done better academically, and she's been the 'troubling child'. She was phyically abused by my mother growing up. Beyond issues between us, my parents also have phyically and emotionally abusive fights. They argue constantly, and there's not much love and care between them.

My exposure to her BPD has grown in the past 5 years, and I've reached a point where I can't handle it anymore. A few highlights:

- We moved into the same city 5 years back, but I was extremely reluctant to stay with her 'cos she has anger management issues. Just a few days before I was moving, she fought with me 'cos I refused to attend her friend's brother's wedding and represent her. She got extremely abusive and I decided not to stay with her.

- The first year of us living separately was filled with my parents calling me to tell me how wrong I was to not stay with her and how she has been threatening them with suicide.

- After a lot of family pressure, I decided to stay with her, and we ended up staying together for almost 4 years

- I was extremely uncomfortable staying with. Beyond random fits regarding me finishing her food and not spending time with her, she lived in an utter mess, and our common areas were filled with her trash. Most of the 4 years, I lived like that, which bothered me a lot. It was the source of many of our issues and I felt she did not make any effort to clean up. My guess is if anyone else lived with her, they wouldn't put up with it.

- She would constantly complain to my dad (who has a slight blindspot towards) about me. She'd lie about me messing up the finances and taking her money (if anything, I wouldn't even count most of our common expenses!)

- She's obsessed with how much money my parents have spent on me versus her. My parents sent me abroad and didn't send her, and she constantly keeps an account of it.

- She gets extremely jealous if my parents do anything for me. They will often lie if they go out for a movie or dinner with me when I'm visiting. They also make me lie if they ever get me any presents

- She's always had a problem with people who are important to me and portrays them in bad light to me parents. She's said negative things about both my girlfriends, my close friends in school, and my close friends in college. She also made up stories about how I had become an alcoholic and a drug user in college using their money.

- She's constantly complaining that I didn't spend time with her when we stayed together. Personally, I would rather spend time with my friends and that's what I did. But so did she, and I never questioned how she spent her time. If she had work or was with friends, it was okay. But if I had the same, it was an issue and a complain to my parents followed suit.

- She was also very selective about this. When I did spend time with her, she ignores that. She'll only pick occassions when I'm busy or spending time with my friends and use that as material for my parents (especially my dad).

- She lies a lot also. She'd lie to my parents about how I wouldn't offer her food with my friends around, which is utter bullPLEASE READ.

- Whenever she fights, she brings up random things, one-off events, things from 5 years back. Anything and everything to throw at me.

- My parents are extremely scared of her. My mom's sister commited suicide, and my sister drops suicide threats at the drop off a hat. And my dad is slightly blind. He's fairly family-oriented, and in his mind, she's part of the family and we have to take care of her. They've developed this pattern where she throws a bit, my did begs her and begs her, and after a few hours she calms down and they pretend as if nothing happened. This happens every single time, and has also happened in public places. Once, she refused to go on a trip with us at the airport, and my dad was begging her in public on his feet and crying.

- She completely refuses therapy. We've tried to send her once or twice, but in vain. Both mom and I feel she needs it. But dad agrees she has issues but doesn't feel therapy is any good (therapy did not work for his OCD)

- Overall, she appears to hate me, is jealous of me, but wants my constant time and attention. And no matter what I do, it's not good enough.

She recently got married and that's really taken the BPD to the next level. She was a nightmare for my parents to deal with, and they'd constantly call me telling me about how she abuses them. This must have happened 30 to 40 times in the past year. She also had major issues with me 'cos she felt I didn't take enough time off to help her with the wedding. I took a week off and did my best to manage work and the wedding. My parents in particular were very grateful about how much I did. But she never saw it. A week before the wedding (before both of us were leaving for the wedding), she started fighting with me again, and made me cry. I begged her to stop and she didn't (I've only ever cried when my dog passed away). Despite this, my parents made me apologize to her for making peace till the wedding got over. I did.

After the wedding was over, I got my own place, and it's been magical to live in a clean, peaceful place by myself. I had reduced contact with her, but on my parent's insistence, I tried to meet her. We attempted several times, but she was busy with her work. We did meet last weekend and it was quite pleasant.

This weekend, we both visited homes and she had her episodes again. The first day, she got violent and abusive with my mom (telling her things like she only makes my favorite food, not hers, which is all a lie). When I asked her to apologize to my mom, she got more violent and started screaming. My dad again would beg her to stop and that got us peace for a day.

Yesterday, the target was me. She asked me to meet for 15 minutes before her honeymoon. I said I would try but it would be difficult since I had a presentation. This was the truth, and I also wanted to spend time with my girlfriend, who I've not met for two weeks. We'd spent the weekend together and spent time at my parent's house, so I didn't see the importance of meeting her again for 15 minutes during a hectic week. This was the trigger, and she got extremely abusive. She complained about all sorts of things to my dad and me:

- She told me I ruined her wedding for her, 'cos 'I was never there'

- She said I haven't met her for 3 months after marriage, what kind of brother am I (I have proof that I asked her to meet at least 4-5 times, and she was either busy or tired after work)

- She called me a selfish bastard, who has ignored her for 5 years and who doesn't even offer her food (a lie)

- She said she's all alone in a big city, and 'cos of me, she feels lonely; that I didn't even bother her to move houses (I was moving houses myself at the exact same time)

- She started attacking my girlfriend - caller her a 'huge bitch' and 'the most horrible person' even though she hasn't done anything to her; she said I couldn't help my sister to move, but I helped my girlfriend move 'cos she's a 'PLEASE READing princess'

- She said all I did was spend time with my girlfriend when I was staying with her, and that we'd stay in my room and ignore her and that my girlfriend wouldn't even say hi to her (a lie); she intentionally mentioned this in front of my dad 'cos he's a bit conservation and spending nights with a girlfriend makes him uncomfortable

- She said that my girlfriend didn't come for her birthday party which was extremely rude (I don't see that as an issue at all); and that my girlfriend didn't say thanks for a gift she got from my sister's sister-in-law (my girlfriend actually said thanks to the sister in law directly, but for some reason, my sister wanted the thanks)

- My girlfriend had told me that the engagement party, my sister said something to her which was offensive; I foolishly asked my sister about it who denied it; I closed the chapter saying it was a misunderstanding; she of course used this to show my dad that my girlfriend is manipulative

- I kept telling her that I'm sorry, but I simply cannot meet  your expectations, and if I'm so bad, then she should not expect anything. She simply looked at my dad, and said, "this is how he talks to his sister"

This went on for hours and hours. It's really bad taking this, and I started crying. Plus, the fact that she abused me girlfriend made me very upset, as she's done nothing to her.

What upset me even more is that she's manipulated my dad and brainwashed him. Instead of saying anything to her, my dad's been telling me that I need to spend more time with her. Whenever I tell him that she's lying, he shrugs it away. He sees the primary problem being the fact that I can't meet her before she leaves for her honeymoon. When I tell him that it doesn't justify her getting abusive like that, he agrees but trivializes how I feel by saying, "she has a temper". And of course, he's been asking the same questions about my girlfriend that my sister brought up, but I'm defending her saying that she's making things up. My dad is a bit like a wall and has been brainwashed.

This one incident is not isolated, but part of a broader problem. She hates me, she's jealous of me, she doesn't like anything that's good in my life, but wants my time and attention. No matter what I do, she finds something to complain about to my parents (mostly my dad). My dad, intead of telling her to stop, tells her he will talk to me and sort it out. Sometimes, like this incident, he sees me as the villain and accuses me of having hate for my sister (which I do, but far less than what she appears to have for me).

All in all, I feel I'm done, and abusing my girlfriend (who I care for very much) was the last straw. I understand a lot of this is not something she can control, but I just do not want to be part of this anymore. I've tried to put up with it for the sake of family, but nothing changes. She's dragging my girlfriend into it and create a negative image in front of my dad, and that's something I simply cannot accept. I also know that my parents will resist this a lot. The same pattern will occur - they'll tell me to forgive, that 'it's your sister', that they arn't asking for much. But I feel a good part of why my sister is like this is she never faces consequences. She's been abusive to all of us, and her husband (and his family), but she just gets what she wants. I want to take a stand and establish boundaries. That I'm done, this is it. I don't want any more of this. I have such great things in my life - my work, my hobbies, my girlfriend. I'm extremely content with that. This is the one black hole that sucks  joy out of my life. And the challenge is that removing it will also cause friction with my parents (who I also care for about a lot).

Wow, that's quite an unload. But here's where I'm at, and I'd appreciate any support on this. Thank you so much.

[MaxRoach]

Hi,

After many years of abuse and managing my sister, who has BPD, I've reached a point where I'm seriously contemplating cutting her off.
 
A bit of background. We have a fairly dsyfunctional family. My dad has OCD and my mom has a form of OCPD. My sister has always been jealous of me (I'm 2 years younger). She's always felt that I'm loved more (especially by my mother). I've typically done better academically, and she's been the 'troubling child'. She was phyically abused by my mother growing up. Beyond issues between us, my parents also have phyically and emotionally abusive fights. They argue constantly, and there's not much love and care between them.

My exposure to her BPD has grown in the past 5 years, and I've reached a point where I can't handle it anymore. A few highlights:

- We moved into the same city 5 years back, but I was extremely reluctant to stay with her 'cos she has anger management issues. Just a few days before I was moving, she fought with me 'cos I refused to attend her friend's brother's wedding and represent her. She got extremely abusive and I decided not to stay with her.

- The first year of us living separately was filled with my parents calling me to tell me how wrong I was to not stay with her and how she has been threatening them with suicide.

- After a lot of family pressure, I decided to stay with her, and we ended up staying together for almost 4 years

- I was extremely uncomfortable staying with. Beyond random fits regarding me finishing her food and not spending time with her, she lived in an utter mess, and our common areas were filled with her trash. Most of the 4 years, I lived like that, which bothered me a lot. It was the source of many of our issues and I felt she did not make any effort to clean up. My guess is if anyone else lived with her, they wouldn't put up with it.

- She would constantly complain to my dad (who has a slight blindspot towards) about me. She'd lie about me messing up the finances and taking her money (if anything, I wouldn't even count most of our common expenses!)

- She's obsessed with how much money my parents have spent on me versus her. My parents sent me abroad and didn't send her, and she constantly keeps an account of it.

- She gets extremely jealous if my parents do anything for me. They will often lie if they go out for a movie or dinner with me when I'm visiting. They also make me lie if they ever get me any presents

- She's always had a problem with people who are important to me and portrays them in bad light to me parents. She's said negative things about both my girlfriends, my close friends in school, and my close friends in college. She also made up stories about how I had become an alcoholic and a drug user in college using their money.

- She's constantly complaining that I didn't spend time with her when we stayed together. Personally, I would rather spend time with my friends and that's what I did. But so did she, and I never questioned how she spent her time. If she had work or was with friends, it was okay. But if I had the same, it was an issue and a complain to my parents followed suit.

- She was also very selective about this. When I did spend time with her, she ignores that. She'll only pick occassions when I'm busy or spending time with my friends and use that as material for my parents (especially my dad).

- She lies a lot also. She'd lie to my parents about how I wouldn't offer her food with my friends around, which is utter bullPLEASE READ.

- Whenever she fights, she brings up random things, one-off events, things from 5 years back. Anything and everything to throw at me.

- My parents are extremely scared of her. My mom's sister commited suicide, and my sister drops suicide threats at the drop off a hat. And my dad is slightly blind. He's fairly family-oriented, and in his mind, she's part of the family and we have to take care of her. They've developed this pattern where she throws a bit, my did begs her and begs her, and after a few hours she calms down and they pretend as if nothing happened. This happens every single time, and has also happened in public places. Once, she refused to go on a trip with us at the airport, and my dad was begging her in public on his feet and crying.

- She completely refuses therapy. We've tried to send her once or twice, but in vain. Both mom and I feel she needs it. But dad agrees she has issues but doesn't feel therapy is any good (therapy did not work for his OCD)

- Overall, she appears to hate me, is jealous of me, but wants my constant time and attention. And no matter what I do, it's not good enough.

She recently got married and that's really taken the BPD to the next level. She was a nightmare for my parents to deal with, and they'd constantly call me telling me about how she abuses them. This must have happened 30 to 40 times in the past year. She also had major issues with me 'cos she felt I didn't take enough time off to help her with the wedding. I took a week off and did my best to manage work and the wedding. My parents in particular were very grateful about how much I did. But she never saw it. A week before the wedding (before both of us were leaving for the wedding), she started fighting with me again, and made me cry. I begged her to stop and she didn't (I've only ever cried when my dog passed away). Despite this, my parents made me apologize to her for making peace till the wedding got over. I did.

After the wedding was over, I got my own place, and it's been magical to live in a clean, peaceful place by myself. I had reduced contact with her, but on my parent's insistence, I tried to meet her. We attempted several times, but she was busy with her work. We did meet last weekend and it was quite pleasant.

This weekend, we both visited homes and she had her episodes again. The first day, she got violent and abusive with my mom (telling her things like she only makes my favorite food, not hers, which is all a lie). When I asked her to apologize to my mom, she got more violent and started screaming. My dad again would beg her to stop and that got us peace for a day.

Yesterday, the target was me. She asked me to meet for 15 minutes before her honeymoon. I said I would try but it would be difficult since I had a presentation. This was the truth, and I also wanted to spend time with my girlfriend, who I've not met for two weeks. We'd spent the weekend together and spent time at my parent's house, so I didn't see the importance of meeting her again for 15 minutes during a hectic week. This was the trigger, and she got extremely abusive. She complained about all sorts of things to my dad and me:

- She told me I ruined her wedding for her, 'cos 'I was never there'

- She said I haven't met her for 3 months after marriage, what kind of brother am I (I have proof that I asked her to meet at least 4-5 times, and she was either busy or tired after work)

- She called me a selfish bastard, who has ignored her for 5 years and who doesn't even offer her food (a lie)

- She said she's all alone in a big city, and 'cos of me, she feels lonely; that I didn't even bother her to move houses (I was moving houses myself at the exact same time)

- She started attacking my girlfriend - caller her a 'huge bitch' and 'the most horrible person' even though she hasn't done anything to her; she said I couldn't help my sister to move, but I helped my girlfriend move 'cos she's a 'PLEASE READing princess'

- She said all I did was spend time with my girlfriend when I was staying with her, and that we'd stay in my room and ignore her and that my girlfriend wouldn't even say hi to her (a lie); she intentionally mentioned this in front of my dad 'cos he's a bit conservation and spending nights with a girlfriend makes him uncomfortable

- She said that my girlfriend didn't come for her birthday party which was extremely rude (I don't see that as an issue at all); and that my girlfriend didn't say thanks for a gift she got from my sister's sister-in-law (my girlfriend actually said thanks to the sister in law directly, but for some reason, my sister wanted the thanks)

- My girlfriend had told me that the engagement party, my sister said something to her which was offensive; I foolishly asked my sister about it who denied it; I closed the chapter saying it was a misunderstanding; she of course used this to show my dad that my girlfriend is manipulative

- I kept telling her that I'm sorry, but I simply cannot meet  your expectations, and if I'm so bad, then she should not expect anything. She simply looked at my dad, and said, "this is how he talks to his sister"

This went on for hours and hours. It's really bad taking this, and I started crying. Plus, the fact that she abused me girlfriend made me very upset, as she's done nothing to her.

What upset me even more is that she's manipulated my dad and brainwashed him. Instead of saying anything to her, my dad's been telling me that I need to spend more time with her. Whenever I tell him that she's lying, he shrugs it away. He sees the primary problem being the fact that I can't meet her before she leaves for her honeymoon. When I tell him that it doesn't justify her getting abusive like that, he agrees but trivializes how I feel by saying, "she has a temper". And of course, he's been asking the same questions about my girlfriend that my sister brought up, but I'm defending her saying that she's making things up. My dad is a bit like a wall and has been brainwashed.

This one incident is not isolated, but part of a broader problem. She hates me, she's jealous of me, she doesn't like anything that's good in my life, but wants my time and attention. No matter what I do, she finds something to complain about to my parents (mostly my dad). My dad, intead of telling her to stop, tells her he will talk to me and sort it out. Sometimes, like this incident, he sees me as the villain and accuses me of having hate for my sister (which I do, but far less than what she appears to have for me).

All in all, I feel I'm done, and abusing my girlfriend (who I care for very much) was the last straw. I understand a lot of this is not something she can control, but I just do not want to be part of this anymore. I've tried to put up with it for the sake of family, but nothing changes. She's dragging my girlfriend into it and create a negative image in front of my dad, and that's something I simply cannot accept. I also know that my parents will resist this a lot. The same pattern will occur - they'll tell me to forgive, that 'it's your sister', that they arn't asking for much. But I feel a good part of why my sister is like this is she never faces consequences. She's been abusive to all of us, and her husband (and his family), but she just gets what she wants. I want to take a stand and establish boundaries. That I'm done, this is it. I don't want any more of this. I have such great things in my life - my work, my hobbies, my girlfriend. I'm extremely content with that. This is the one black hole that sucks  joy out of my life. And the challenge is that removing it will also cause friction with my parents (who I also care for about a lot).

Wow, that's quite an unload. But here's where I'm at, and I'd appreciate any support on this. Thank you so much.

[Harri]

Hi MaxR and welcome to the board!

Thanks for providing the background of your relationship with your family.  It helps to see the whole picture.

Dealing with a sibling with BPD behaviors and a family who enables and excuses the behavior is quite difficult as you already know.   

One thing to remember is often pwBPD (people with BPD) allow their emotions to dictate facts.  If they feel you are ignoring them then you are ignoring them... even when no such thing has happened.  To them, it is not a lie it is reality.  For us, it can be frustrating and crazy making and we will often try to JADE (justify, argue, defend and explain).  We have an article titled Don't JADE that may help when having conversations not just with your sister but also you family as well.  When we JADE we feed the drama triangle and that just leads to more conflict and circular conversations/arguments.  See what you think.

It sounds like your family functions as a system where everyone tries to keep things stable by appeasing your sister.  This is common and also frustrating.  It can help to see everyone's role in it, as you seem to, rather than just seeing one person as the problem.  In a family everyone tends to participate in the dysfunction.  Changing that pattern, or at least our role in it, can help (we have tools here that you can learn and use).  You mentioned boundaries, and those can lead to significant change for you.   

I also know that my parents will resist this a lot. The same pattern will occur - they'll tell me to forgive, that 'it's your sister', that they arn't asking for much. But I feel a good part of why my sister is like this is she never faces consequences.  She's been abusive to all of us, and her husband (and his family), but she just gets what she wants. I want to take a stand and establish boundaries. That I'm done, this is it. I don't want any more of this... And the challenge is that removing it will also cause friction with my parents (who I also care for about a lot).

I agree your parents will probably resist and give you push back as you change your role.  We can help you with that.

Again,

[No-One]

Hi MaxRoach:
Welcome!  It can feel good to vent about things.  I have a sibling with some strong BPD traits.  Our parents have passed.  My sibling went off the rail with me around the time our parents health began to fail.  I've been painted black since them (her scapegoat), and there appears to be no going back.  I'm currently in a no contact situation (NC).

Many of us hit a point, where we just can't keep going through the same cycles.  Nothing ever changes. The only thing we have control over is ourselves, our boundaries and how we react and communicate.

- The first year of us living separately was filled with my parents calling me to tell me how wrong I was to not stay with her and how she has been threatening them with suicide.  My parents are extremely scared of her. My mom's sister commited suicide, and my sister drops suicide threats at the drop off a hat.

Suicide has to be taken seriously, but threats can be used to manipulate and can be considered abusive behavior.  Calling authorities out, for a threat of suicide (and having the person placed on a mental health hold/eval), can stop manipulative behavior.  If they don't want to go through that process again, they will stop manipulative threats.  Some people have been successful with this approach. 

The quoted material below is from a hotline website.  This is an approach for when manipulation is in play, but the threat isn't definite enough for an emergency response team to put her on a mental health hold. Although it is geared toward romantic partners, the same examples could be used with family members, with a little altering.

Tell your partner you care about them, but stick to your boundaries. Giving in to threats over and over does not make a relationship healthy, and it only creates anger and resentment on your end. You could say something like, “You know I care about you very much, and I understand you’re upset right now, but I will not _____.”
Put the choice to live or die where it belongs – on your partner. You can’t be responsible for another person’s actions, no matter what – and this includes when your partner chooses to be abusive. An optional response is: “I think our relationship should be based on love and respect, not threats. I really care about you, but this is your choice and I can’t stop you from making it.”

Overall, she appears to hate me, is jealous of me. She lies a lot also.  Whenever she fights, she brings up random things, one-off events, things from 5 years back. Anything and everything to throw at me. She completely refuses therapy.

I't interesting how similar people with BPD or strong BPD traits are.  It's almost as if there were a BPD handbook or training manual. 

I'm had the same experiences with my sibling:  jealousy, lies (some of it would qualify as projection:  attributing their bad traits to you) and blame.  They can't discuss any issue without bringing up every thing they think you are at fault for from the beginning of time.

No matter what I do, she finds something to complain about to my parents (mostly my dad). My dad, intead of telling her to stop, tells her he will talk to me and sort it out. Sometimes, like this incident, he sees me as the villain and accuses me of having hate for my sister (which I do, but far less than what she appears to have for me).   

  Sounds like a lot of triangulation going on (drama triangles).  The info., at the link below, could be helpful.
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

  I want to take a stand and establish boundaries. That I'm done, this is it. I don't want any more of this. I have such great things in my life - my work, my hobbies, my girlfriend. I'm extremely content with that. This is the one black hole that sucks  joy out of my life. And the challenge is that removing it will also cause friction with my parents (who I also care for about a lot).   

It's your choice to make.  Setting boundaries is a good idea.  Some people go back and forth, between no contact (NC) and limited contact (LC). 

I understand a lot of this is not something she can control, but I just do not want to be part of this anymore. I've tried to put up with it for the sake of family, but nothing changes.

I know that some people believe that people with BPD or BPD traits can't control their behaviors (that it's not a choice).  I tend to believe that not everyone with BPD or BPD traits is the same.  People with BPD generally have a combination of various mental health issues.  Anxiety & depression are common.  Then there are other mental health issues such as: bipolar, ADD/ADHD, OCD and a host of many other.

Although some may take the position that the cause is environmental, it's more likely to be a combination of genetic and environmental.  I think that many mental health issues, left untreated (by meds and therapy), can evolve from less complicated conditions to gain the label of BPD.

I think that mental health issues can be managed, but not usually cured.  It's easier to make concessions for someone who is at least trying to improve their emotional dysregulation.  When they won't accept any responsibility, you have to take measures and set boundaries to preserve your own mental health.  It's very common for other family members or partners to be the once to go get therapy, but the person with BPD holds onto their position that there is nothing wrong with them, but with everyone else.

Best wishes on you quest to set and enforce your boundaries.

[MaxRoach]

Thanks for the generous replies everyone. It feels better to at least be heard and understood (something my family doesn't offer much).

I'm a bit lost here. I'm desperate for change, and the only thing I feel will work is several limiting contact with her. A lot of the material on this mentions caring about this person. Very honestly, I don't care about this person much at all. My relationship with her purely based on a sense of duty and obgligation, imposed by my parents.

What are the next steps here? How do I think about this? How do I initiate the NC or LC? How do I manage my parents?

[No-One]

What are the next steps here? How do I think about this? How do I initiate the NC or LC? How do I manage my parents?

Your status doesn't have to be permanent.  Some people bounce back and forth between periods of NC and LC, in accordance with their circumstances.

Sounds like you have a lot to sort out.  One way to step into this is to perhaps put you sister on very limited contact, and only communicate with her at family events. You could block her from text/phone on your cell and perhaps unfollow her on social media (as opposed to unfriend).  If she sends emails, you could direct her emails to a special folder, or flag it as spam.

It will be beneficial for you to learn & practice the communication tools and put them into practice. The tools mentioned below could be a good place to start.
DRAMA TRIANGLE:
Don't get into a drama triangle with you parents.  Keep your cool, but have firm replies ready to use.  The roles in the drama triangle can get a bit confusing.  Sounds like your dad may be playing the role of "Rescuer", making your sister "The Victim" and declaring you the "Prosecutor".  From your perspective, sounds like you are a victim, with both your sister and dad playing the role of prosecutor (no rescue for you).

Perhaps you could refuse to  JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain), when dad approaches you and tries to rescue your sister.  You could use a SET response or "I" Statement and then refuse to debate the issue.  You have a right to your own feelings and boundaries.   Check out the link below for an article on the drama triangle:
KARPMAN DRAMA TRIANGLE

SET:
Learn and practice some SET responses.  Here is an example of a possible statement to your parents:
SUPPORT: I care for you both and I want to support you in healthy ways
EMPATHY:  Change is difficult, and I know it can be comforting to keep thing the way they are.
TRUTH:  I want to look after my own health and well being.  That means that I have to limit (eliminate) my relationshp with my sister, until such a time that she get serious about seeking help and managing her mental health.

Here is a link to a SET Workshop:
SET (Support, Empathy and Truth)

JADE:
Dont. Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain (JADE).  You may need to politely terminate some conversations:  i.e.
"I'm not having that conversation.  I'm happy to talk about something else"
"I'm not having that conversation.  I'll let you go now.  We can chat on another day about other things"

Here is a link to a JADE Workshop:
DON'T JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain) and avoid circular arguments

"I'"STATEMENTS:
"I" Statement can be a tool for you to use. Avoid using "You" Statements and focus on either "I" Statements or "We" Statements The 19-minute video at the link below, is a helpful tutorial for using "I" Statements:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDExNRJCUp0

The template and sample below could be helpful as well.

Start by identifying how you feel: mad, sad, etc.
I feel __________

State the reason for your feelings (what happened)
when __________

Try to identify the reason the person’s actions led to those feelings for you.
(identify)__________

Let the person know what you want instead.
I would like __________ .

I feel __________when __________Because_____I would like __________ .

Example:
(I Feel)I feel extremely angry, (When) when sister acts out during family events, and is disrespectful with me and/or my girlfriend.  (Because)This has gone on for too long and It isn't an excuse that she doesn't take responsibly for her mental health and makes no attempt to manage her condition. (I would like) I want' sister to engage in mutually respectful behavior. (additional comment) If sister act's out and/or disrespects me or my girlfriend at any future family event that I attend, I will leave.  I'm letting you know in advance, so that if I attend, you will know what to expect.  I would make every effort to disengage from sisters dysregulation in a calm and respectful manner, but I won't hand around and be subjected to it any longer.

Possible addition to the above comment:
You and mom are entitled to your view of events. We don't have to agree.  I am entitled to have my own feelings and establish my own personal boundaries. This is my position and I won't debate it.  I'd love to attend ______family event.  This is my position.  If you are unable to support my position, I will not attend the event.

EXAMPLES OF WAYS TO END A PHONE CONVERSATION THAT ISN'T GOING WELL:
Sample 1
I'm frustrated right now, as it appears we aren't having a mutually respectful conversation.  I hear that you are having a bad day.  Therefore, I'm going to end this conversation.  I look forward to speaking to you when we can both enjoy a respectful conversation.

Sample 2
I want to have a mutually respectful conversation with you, but that isn't possible right now.  I'm going to end this conversation.  I look forward to (talking, texting, exchanging emails), with you when you are having a better day.

Sample 3
I won't have that conversation.  I'd love to talk about something else.  How is ____ going?

It would be good to practice and write out some issues in advance in the form of "I" or "we" statements, per the formula above.  It will take a little practice, but the more you do it the better it will get.

Don't get overwhelmed.  Take a technique or communication tool, one at a time.  It can take some practice.  All the tools here are good communication tools that can be helpful in all life situations:  at work, with your partner and with friends.

[MaxRoach]

Thank you for all the help. After much reflection, I've decided to go NC with my sister for now. We haven't spoken since our latest argument, but if she does decide to message or call, I will tell her that I'm unwilling to keep a relationship until she seeks therapy.

Any suggestions on how I handle my dad? I'm still extremely hurt by his support for my sister. I've started talking to him again, and I'm avoiding the topic of my sister. But I know it'll come up eventually. He gets extremely angry about it and villianizes me. He also makes me feel guilty that the reason I'm angry with my sister is she abused my girlfriend (I don't know what's wrong with that, but he seems to imply valuing my girlfriend more than my sister is wrong somehow).

[No-One]

After much reflection, I've decided to go NC with my sister for now. We haven't spoken since our latest argument, but if she does decide to message or call, I will tell her that I'm unwilling to keep a relationship until she seeks therapy.

Any suggestions on how I handle my dad? I'm still extremely hurt by his support for my sister. I've started talking to him again, and I'm avoiding the topic of my sister. But I know it'll come up eventually. He gets extremely angry about it and villianizes me. He also makes me feel guilty that the reason I'm angry with my sister is she abused my girlfriend (I don't know what's wrong with that, but he seems to imply valuing my girlfriend more than my sister is wrong somehow).

Look closely at the SET and "I" Statement examples and guidance in the prior posts.  There are a couple of examples there, along with the formula for constructing the statements.  Practice makes perfect.  How about practicing the construction of some personal statements and posting them here? 

Stay away from JADEing.  You don't want to get into justifying, arguing, explaining and defending your position. You want to calmly and firmly make your statement to your dad, and then cut off further discussion.  If your dad can't move onto another topic, then you need to politely leave the discussion.

Le't see those practice statements.

[Snoopy737]

Hey MaxRoach

I've just read your post and the nice replies.

I'm the little brother, too. 3 years younger. We are middle age now. My sister wasn't quite as aggressive as your sister, but I've had a friend (a woman, only a friend) who was hit even harder by BPD than your sister, and I spoke a lot with her boyfriend while she was hospitalized (for BPD), so I also know - from that side - how the cruel BPD-games are.

I've spoken with at lot of therapists and nurses and doctors, and I have got great help in here, but I still broke down with anxiety and depression while taking care of my mom and dad, who got cancer at the same time. And sister just helped with loading a ton of trouble on to me, while I had enough looking after my ill parents. So I also know the frustration.

Finally my dad died, sister just caused a lot of trouble while we arranged the funeral and after. And after 6 months, I broke down. So, my opinion when I see how hard your sister is, I just wonder how you managed not to break down. To me, it sounds like you're focused about  how to 'handle sister' and hot to 'handle father', that you're not even worried about yourself. You know you can break down, too, right?

It's now 3 years since my father died. The first year I had contact again with sister, but then she thought she was ill and worried me and my mother day and night by worrisome texts. Finally I had to say, she should get some more help at her doctors and maybe at the local hospital, and then she got so angry that she for the first time got no contact with me. Actually, it was a bit of a releif that she proclamed the nc this time and not me. But, my mother soon changed from understanding me to only understanding sister. (I have an idea of which side of the family the BPD-trait runs ;-) )

So, I truly understand that you're looking for a good solution, so your whole family especially your parents won't explode. I looked for that solution, too, for almost 10 years, and I got more and more anxiety before family visits my sister was attending.

Now, I can look at the whole situation retrospectively. And I can see, that I was the only one who actually wanted to seek help at therapists, nurses and doctors so we hopefully could have better dialogues and agree more in the family. And when I look back, it's quite clear that you can't fix a family, when you are the only one willing to do something.

This time it was my sister going nc, but I kept it when she suddenly sent me a birthday present, but would speak to me at all and still insisted on no contact. Then I wrote her, the she could keep her presents (I'm quite sure, she sent it, so that she could tell my mother how good she is to me, she thinks like that).

So, nc, and I'm insisting to keep it that way, bc I'm actually getting better now with the anxiety and depression. It feels really, really, REALLY good knowing that I don't have to go to any family visits ind the holidays, with anxiety and stomach ache, bc I don't know how sister will behave (all our family, except mom, also died btw, so there are no birthdays etc. to attend).

But I still have the pain and sorrow inside, kind of disappointed, that there wasn't a magic solution to fix the family problems, especially when we are only a handful left. I'm also really sad that my mom only supported me the first weeks, and then jumped to my sisters side, defending her, no matter what she do or don't do (sister loves to blame all in the family for everything, while she is the only one doing absolutely nothing for others. She takes no responsibility at all).

I kind of think the hardest part for me (and maybe you) isn't about handling our sisters or parents. The hardest part is believing in ourselves, no matter what everyone else in the family says. Believing that nc is the only right thing  - for now, like you wrote. It was hard for me to just trying to speak about other subjects with my mom, when I just felt like expressing my anger on my sister (Yup, have a lot of anger and a lot of 'Why did it have to be this way?). That's hard. So when we finally listen to ourself, it's the silence that's the hard part. Making short statements, that we want nc. I now realize it was the only way forward for me. The hard part was accepting this. Even though my therapist and my doctor told me, I didn't have health to keep up with sisters games, I always thought they just didn't see the right solution or way out of it. Now I see, it's that continous searching for a solution, that kept me hanging on and kept sister playing all her games with me, winning most of them. Now, I just don't play those games anymore. I won't eat it anymore.

Actually it feels quite empty and a bit lonely sometimes, bc I know sister won't take any help from anyone, and especially not from therapists, bc she thinks everyone else are mentally ill, and she's the only sane one. It's painfull it has to end there.

I don't think we can handle other people. I can't handle my sister. I can't handle my mother. The have chosen their ways. And I don't think anyone can give you the perfect sentence, so that you can handle your father, who apparently takes your sisters side. I don't see you can do anything else than stating your nc. You don't have to explain to your parents, but I think I would have tried it anyway. Maybe prepared something about, that I have to take care of myself and my own health, so that I don't break down. And then I would try to have good times with my parents afterwards is possible. If it isn't possible and you're being blamed, I would say goodbye in a polite way and drive home to my girlfriend.

I think it's so important that you spend you life and time on your girlfriend. It's your lifes. Your father has your mother, and your sister has her new husbond, and that's the way the world is. We're primarily together with our girlfriends or boyfriends or the ones we are married to.

If you spend more time on your sister, who will never be satisfied or time with your parents discussing sister, you risk missing your girlfriend, and even though nothing sounds more devastating, you could also lose yourself, like I lost myself to anxiety and depression.

I can only wish you good luck and all best! You don't owe anyone more. You have done a 1000 times more than other brothers would do. You need to get a distance now, so you can see your priorities in a more clear light, so you can see, that you could actually lose your girlfriend and yourself, if you don't take listen to yourself.

All best from another brother with a BPD-sister

[MaxRoach]

Hi Snoopy,

I'm in a deep gratitude for you to share this. It made me teary eyed 'cos so much of it resonates. And you're right. I'm losing myself in this mess.

(I'm quite sure, she sent it, so that she could tell my mother how good she is to me, she thinks like that).

This made me laugh, 'cos its exactly what my sis would do.

And you're also right that I can't fix my family. The silence is scary, cutting off is scary, believing in myself is scary. I've been wired to get approval from my parents, and when it doesn't happen, it feels frightening.

I've gone a few weeks NC and my family is starting their pressure. My dad has been forcing my mom to call me and pressurize me. Today I tried to speak to my dad and he absolutely screamed at me. I was shaking. He essentially villified me as if I was this horrible human being that's mistreating my sister. He's so blind and I just can't change how he sees things.

I just don't know what to do here. I feel lost and helpless.

[zachira]

Feeling sad for all of us who have to deal with family members with BPD and having to wrestle with the choices of what kind of contact to have with them if any. For some of us, it helps to know that the decision we make about contact today does not have to be permanent. Many members have chosen to go for long periods of no contact while they became stronger inside and better at setting healthy boundaries with others. Sometimes the temporary no contact becomes permanent because reengaging just isn't worth it. Other times the no contact becomes limited contact. It is all so sad and hurtful. Probably what has hurt me the most is to see how other relatives join in maligning certain family members as a defense mechanism to avoid dealing with how unhappy they are inside.

[Panda39]

I've gone a few weeks NC and my family is starting their pressure. My dad has been forcing my mom to call me and pressurize me. Today I tried to speak to my dad and he absolutely screamed at me. I was shaking. He essentially vilified me as if I was this horrible human being that's mistreating my sister.

To me this is about your dad's own discomfort and him trying to make things "comfortable" again by getting you to play your role in the dysfunctional family dynamic.  You have set a boundary and you have stepped off the triangle...you are controlling what you control and that is yourself.  You are making healthier choices and that is having ripple effects in the past dynamic of your family.

The hard part for you will be letting your dad and the rest of your family including yourself be uncomfortable with the new changes you are making.  Change like anything new takes practice, and takes time to get used to.

I also wanted to share information on FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail...when there is pressure like you are feeling from your dad it is usually FOG.  It helps to take it less personally when you can recognize it for what it is.

More on FOG...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

He's so blind and I just can't change how he sees things.

That's one of the biggest things I've learned here is the only person I truly control is myself. So you can change you.  What has been going on isn't working for you so you are making changes...self care is a good thing. 

Hang in there,
Panda39

[Snoopy737]

Hi MaxRoach

You're very welcome.  Glad, I also made you laugh a bit about the present, my sis sent me after claiming NC. ;)

I Totally agree with Panda above. This is a really weird reaction from your dad. I'm not a therapist, so can just say, the BPD has to run in the family. Maybe it's on your fathers side.

I don't know how old you are, but him screaming at you in the phone si totally unacceptable. I remember this too, when my sister in her teens suddenly chose a really weird and harmful branch of the christian church with religious fanaticism. She married a guy who called himself a priest, but wasn't really, and she condemned everything from her childhood. My parents was so sad about it, and there was a big quarrel in the family every time we had to go visit that crazy priest and my sister. She started all that religious fanaticism when she was 16, and five years later, when I became 19, I finally said, that I didn't want to go visit them anymore, and my dad also screamed at me, for making my mom sad with not going? Really weird, but that time I was so burned out that I screamed him back in the face. You know, we never did that. It was a family where it wasn't acceptable to be angry. So I surprised him so much, that he walked backwards out of my room and I slammed the door in his face. I just couldn't take anymore, and later on my parents slowly accepted, that I wouldn't see the priest and my sister. The also tried converting me into there dangerous kind of selfinvented Christianity.

At that time my parent couldn't cope with another problem, because they were so desperate and sorry about my sisters totally change in mind and thoughts.

Maybe your dad is desperate, too, bc he is powerless about your sisters BPD traits, or maybe it runs in the family too on his side? But no matter what, you shouldn't really accept his reactions, screaming at you. Also, when I forgot to write in my first answer. If he thinks his daughter really needs so much attention, that you have to see her all the time, why doesn't he himself see her. Take his daughter on rides or trips or walks in forrest? Maybe bc he can't stand being near her, too. Maybe it's just so much easier giving you the responsibility for everything about her. No matter what. You can't take the responsibility on your shoulders. If there is one in your family who actually doesn't have to solve this, it's you! It's weak parents who place the responsibility on their son to tell the hard things to their troubled daughter.

If he's used to your sister screaming and acting out, I think it's your turn now. It's his responsibility, if he thinks there is a problem with your sister. I really think he's a sissy screaming at you, bc he can't and won't at least try to solve some of the problems with your sister. It's so sad, that they can't be better parents to you, and it leaves you in a hard situation. I can see that. But in the end, it's your parent's and your sister's problem.

It's a shi**y situation. Totally agree. I'm just glad, that you have a nice girlfriend. Also, she shouldn't see you like the man, whos dad is screaming in the face. Totally not acceptable.

It sound a bit like both your sister and your parents want a war. I think you have done MORE that one could ever ask of his brother/son. Become a pacifist. That's the only way to get out of that war. Never give in to someone that screams at you after all that you've done for your sister. Not your wish or problem that she has BPD-traits. Even therpists have a hard time helping BPDs, so don't blame yourself for not being able to help, even though you wanted to of all your heart, if it was possible for you.

All best

[MaxRoach]

Thanks a lot Snoopy for your replies. It really does feel that have an unknown friend who truly understandings what I'm going through.

You really are spot on about my dad. I recently visited my parents and had a lot of difficult conversations with my dad. He had cooled down on the pressure he was giving me, and finally acknowledged that it was not okay for my sister to create lies about me and tell him. I also happened to develop some empathy for him.

As background, he has OCD and has been living with it for 30 years. He told me that he believes that my sisters mental issues might be due to him, in that they are genetic. I also feel that he doesn't think my sister can help herself, 'cos he himself couldn't get better with his OCD even after taking therapy. So maybe that's why he gives her some slack. So I guess that's where he's coming from. He did not agree with my stance to cut off my sister, 'cos in his head, if a family member is sick, you don't just abandon them. But at least he was less violent about it and willing to accept it to a degree.

All that was for the last month. This weekend however, I got a call from my parents telling me that my sister had a major fight with her husband. And that I need to give her support since I'm in the same city as her (they live in a different city). They even suggested that I let her stay with me while things get sorted with her husband. My sister being my sister had called them the previous night saying she had no place to stay or run away to and that hotels cost 500 dollars a night (which is not true). Maybe this was my sisters attempt to manipulate my parents into pressurising me. I wouldn't put it past her.

Regardless, I had almost a panic attack at the suggestion of letting her stay with me. I feel like I've  just managed to move away from her and it feels really unfair that I'm being pressurized into staying with her again (even temporarily). I panicked and I've actively avoided engaging with my parents since. I've been feeling a lot of anxiety too. Some of it is guilt - my father suggested that he couldn't believe I was not willing to support my sister and he wondered if I would behave the same if someone was dying. That hurt and gave me guilt. Some of it is anger - I'm angry my parents don't see that my sister will always fight with her husband; they've had vicious fights for the last 3 years, and yet my parents got them married. The solution is to get her treatment, not for me to 'support' her, whatever that means. And I'm angry 'cos she should be dealing with her relationship issues, not me. And I also feel sadness - I genuinely thought I had healed my relationship with my dad (something I cherish a lot), but this seems to have taken it off the rails again.

I've had a tough 4 days, feeling a lot of anxiety and heaviness. I don't know what to do, and I'm too scared of talking to my parents lest they bring this up.

What shall I do?

[No-One]

Hi MaxRoach
I'm sorry about what you are going through with your sister.  Only you can decide what is best for you.  Don't let your dad's FOG (Fear, Obligation & Guilt) get the best of you.

Additionally, you don't want to get in the middle of a drama triangle with your dad & sister and/or your sister & her husband.  Unless your sister is forced to look at herself as part of her problems, she won't change.  If people keep rescuing her, she won't change.

You know that you can't live with your sister, so why even consider it.  If your parents want to rescue her, they can get her transported to their home.  If you sister is claiming domestic abuse, she can seek out a shelter to stay at.

As background, he has OCD and has been living with it for 30 years. He told me that he believes that my sisters mental issues might be due to him, in that they are genetic. I also feel that he doesn't think my sister can help herself, 'cos he himself couldn't get better with his OCD even after taking therapy. So maybe that's why he gives her some slack. So I guess that's where he's coming from. He did not agree with my stance to cut off my sister, 'cos in his head, if a family member is sick, you don't just abandon them. But at least he was less violent about it and willing to accept it to a degree

You don't have to conform to what your dad wants.  A lot of fact have to be examined before someone can truly say that treatment for OCD is unsuccessful:

1.  You have to gain input from those who interact with someone with a mental health issue.  You dad might not think he improved, but those around him may see an improvement from their prospective.

2.  You have to look at the therapy itself.  Did the therapist have enough experience with OCD (or whatever the issue is)? 

3.  How long did a person go to therapy?  How many therapists?

4.  Was medication tired?  Perhaps needing to try different meds or combinations.

5.  Were meds & therapy tried at the same time?

6.  What might be true for one person, does not necessarily apply to another. 

Don't commit to something you know you can't handle.  Your sister may have to hit bottom before she gets some help.

You can set a boundary, say "no" and defend the boundary.  Don't JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend & Explain) with your dad.  Prepare what you might say to your dad, by writing down a couple of statements.  A BIFF statement might be best (Brief, Informative, Friendly & Firm).

This may not be the right time to use a SET statement with your dad about his OCD (Support, Empathy & Truth), but you might want to write out a draft of what you might say to you dad in the future about his OCD, versus your sister's issues.  Plenty of people gain benefit from taking meds and/or managing their mental health issues with therapy. 

[MaxRoach]

Thanks. Can you tell me a bit more about BIFF?

[Harri]

Hi MaxRoach!

Here is an article we have on BIFF.  It is written with email communication in mind but it can be adapted to any conversation with difficult people.
   
2.03 | B.I.F.F. Technique for Communications

See what you think and if you can use in in your communication with your pwBPD.

[Pilpel]

Max Roach,

I read through all the things you've had to deal with.  And this:
 

She was a nightmare for my parents to deal with, and they'd constantly call me telling me about how she abuses them. This must have happened 30 to 40 times in the past year.

 

You're not just experiencing the things she's doing toward you, but you are experiencing the crazy she's inflicting on your parents.

I just recently went no contact with a sister-in-law after more than 10 years.  I could identify with your experience in the sense that I can see from the list that you write that SO MUCH of your attention is focused on HER NEGATIVE behavior.  I felt the same way.  I didn't see my SIL more often than once a month.  And yet there was always something negative that she did that drew my attention.  And when my attention was drawn to the negative things she did, it took attention away from the good things in my own life, and from building up good things in my own life.  I learned a lot about myself and setting boundaries in the period of time that she was in my life.  But I regret how much of my energy and time I spent on her negativity. 

[MaxRoach]

Hi Pilpel, thank you for the kind words.

But I'm really struggling.

I didn't speak to my dad for 5 days after the latest incident when he called me to let my sister stay with me.Today, he called me and it was perhaps the worst one hour experience of my life. I've never screamed or cried like this before. He essentially started behaving like my sister and started accusing me of exactly the same things that she does. Of being self sufficient, aloof, not sharing anything with him, and favoring my friends (i.e., specifically my girl friend) over family. He complained that I didn't share anything with him, especially about my salary and performance at work (I explicitly choose to not talk about it to anyone 'cos I don't like bragging about my work). Then he complained that I had time for my girlfriend, and I only choose to visit them when she was away. This is not true, and also exactly the kind of thing my sister would say. I go out of my way to visit him, but he's seeing it in a way that's completely made up and absolutely unfair!

He's essentially developed this utterly false idea that my girlfriend is brainwashing me and causing problems with my sister, and pulling me away from my family. It's ridiculously dramatic and completely made up. And it's exactly the kind of things my sister talks about. I know she's been complaining to my dad that I spend time with my girlfriend and not her for years. But I didn't realize that he had also started believing it.

I'm feeling completely helpless and it was a terrible experience for me. I cried and screamed at him, asking him why he was dragging my girlfriend into the picture and how could he say I don't value my family. I reminded him that I make it a point to visit home almost every month and when I stay home, I spend most of my time with him (compared to my sister who spends most of her time with her friends when she visits). I tried to also tell him how I support him more than anyone with his OCD so its really unfair for him to say these things. But it was talking to a wall. As soon as stated facts about one accusation, it moved it another. It was exactly like my sister. He talked about how I'm just a private person, and self-sufficient, and I don't share any worries or issues with him. When I told him I don't have anything to share, he then went to complain that I'm very rigid with my schedules and routines. It was just one thing or the other.

He kept complaining that I don't talk about my life and my salary with him, and also asked in a very derogatory and rhetorical manner, "I'm sure you tell your girlfriend your salary, but not us". When I told him that I don't even tell my girlfriend, then he seemed a bit satisfied.

But it's just awful, and I'm terribly hurt and upset and don't know what to do. He's basically become my sister, and has developed irrational dislike for my girlfriend, just 'cos I choose to spend time with her. And for no good reason, as that has never come in the way of me spending time with my parents, especially him. But he's totally blinded, and I feel like he's become an adult version of my sister. It was just one hammering after the other, and by the end of it, he acted as if he'd said or done nothing. I was howling and screaming and nothing seemed to effect him.

I don't really know what to do, and I know there's not much anyone else can do either to help me. But I just needed a place to share this as I'm utterly broken and honestly can't even tell my girlfriend since so much of it involves her.

[Panda39]

Hi MaxRoach,

I'm sorry you had to go through all that,  those kinds of "conversations" are awful. 

What I'm hearing is a lot of pressure and where there is pressure there is FOG, your dad is trying to boundary bust.  You have a boundary which is your salary is private (which is completely reasonable by the way).  He is trying to pressure you/guilt you into sharing something you don't wish to.  You have an absolute right to keep your private information private from anyone and that includes family. 

Setting boundaries is great that is a BIG tool when it comes to BPD.  Setting boundaries is not about punishing anyone it is about protecting ourselves.  For example not telling your dad your salary isn't to hurt him it is to protect you and your confidential information.

More information on Boundaries...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

He essentially started behaving like my sister and started accusing me of exactly the same things that she does. Of being self sufficient... 

Wow...you're an adult of course you are self sufficient as you should be...can you see the FOGuilt here?  That you should somehow feel guilty/bad for being an adult that is ridiculous.  I see this as his fear of abandonment which is at the core of BPD.  The thing is his feelings are his and his feelings are his to deal with.  You are not responsible for your dad's feelings.

...aloof, not sharing anything with him, and favoring my friends (i.e., specifically my girl friend) over family.

Again fear of abandonment and jealous of your girlfriend.  I know it sucks to be accused of things you aren't doing, but when we engage in JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) we escalate the drama, and it can just end up in a never ending circular argument that goes no where. 

More on JADE...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

I point out the Fear of Abandonment not so you will try and go rescue your dad from his feelings but so you can understand where this irrational stuff is coming from.  You are not responsible for his feelings, these are his issues.

He talked about how I'm just a private person, and self-sufficient, and I don't share any worries or issues with him. When I told him I don't have anything to share, he then went to complain that I'm very rigid with my schedules and routines. It was just one thing or the other.

He's trying to keep you engaged in the drama, he wants you to share, you have nothing to share so lets change the subject and keep the drama going.

Max are you seeing a Therapist at all?  I think some extra support would help, it sounds like you are getting a double whammy from dad and sis.

I know I've shared a lot of information (the resources here have really helped me so I like to share) take a look at your own pace.

Hang in there 
Panda39

[MaxRoach]

Thanks a lot, Panda.

I did go through all these concepts, and did applied a bit of 'No JADE', which appeared to help things. But my dad has come back even more ferociously and is behaving exactly like my sister, and questioning my very core behaviors and existence. Is it that he also has some sort of BPD? And the things he says hurt me at such a deep level (and are totally unfounded accusations) that I completely lose the clarity of no JADE. How am I supposed to answer when he tells me that I take out time for my girlfriend and not him - an utter lie. What's the response supposed to be?

How the hell do I deal with this? It's one thing to deal it with my sister. I have less attachment for her and can go NC with him. But what do I do with him? Part of me just wants to run away and not deal with any of this. Just the idea of trying to understanding these behaviors and come up with a 'solution' (like no JADE) feels exhausting, hurtful and honestly unfair. Why is it that I'm being targeted, when I'm the only one in the family that remains calm, does not make unreasonable requests, and actually has a peaceful life? Can my father and sister not tolerate the fact that I'm peaceful and balanced?

It really breaks my heart.

[MaxRoach]

An update on this- I'm really confused.

After yesterday, he called me today and started talking as if nothing happened. He called and started talking about the economy and politics. I really didn't know what to say and told him I'm at work.

What does all this mean?

[Pilpel]

It was just one hammering after the other, and by the end of it, he acted as if he'd said or done nothing. I was howling and screaming and nothing seemed to effect him.

You describe your dad as OCD, but has he had these tendencies before --where he attacks you until you get upset and then acts like nothing happened--- or is this something new?   I can understand if your BPD sister feels threatened by your girlfriend, since someone with a personality disorder is going to feel jealous about people who are competing for your attention.  But do you think your dad is, too?  Or is he just repeating things that your sister is loading on him?  Clearly from how you've described your father already, he doesn't have very good boundaries.  He is fully engaged in the ongoing drama, and he keeps trying to drag you into it, too.

I've mentioned this on this board a few times before.  I found this board after reading Stop Walking on Eggshells.  And in SWOE, it recommends a way of engaging with a person with BPD by repeating back what they say.  I think you would find this very useful when your dad does this again.  You can see that when you respond by JADEing (justify, argue, defend, explain) to his provocations, you're giving fuel to the craziness.  And the way you describe him, he seems to be unloading on you, but detached at the same time. 

So imagine what the result would be if you responded like this:

"MaxRoach, you are being too self-sufficient and aloof.  You don't spend enough time with me.  You favor your friends over family."

This is meant to trigger you, and get you to engage.  But instead, you take a deep breath and repeat back:

"So what I hear you saying, dad, is that you think I'm too self-sufficient and aloof.  You don't think I spend enough time with you.  And you think that I spend more time with my friends that with you.  Do I have that right?" 

"MaxRoach, you don't talk about your life or tell me how much you make.  I'll bet you tell your girlfriend how much you make, don't you?"

"So let me get this straight, dad.  You think it's a problem that I have my own life and do things that I don't tell you about.  And it bothers you that I don't tell you how much I make.  And it bothers you to think that I could be telling my girlfriend things that I don't tell you.  Do I understand that right, dad?" 

It could be that your dad is just unloading his own stress that he's taking on from your sister.  And maybe he won't even give you the space to reflect back.  If you find that he's not even listening to you, maybe just put the phone down and step back and listen to his rant from across the room.  Or write down the things that he said to you in his rant, and reflect the things he said to you next time you talk to him.

I get the sense from what you wrote that you are at the age where you are just starting to become more independent.  And by becoming more independent, you are also trying to establish more healthy connections and boundaries with your family.  But your family doesn't have healthy boundaries.  I agree that it would be good for you to find a good counselor.  There is a lot of good information out there now, books and youtube videos- about narcissism and setting healthy boundaries and helping to identify dysfunctional dynamics.  I started getting into these books and videos when I first realized that I was dealing with a Cluster B SIL.  Even when I first started to learn about all the terminology about how they manipulate --using fear, obligation, guilt, projection, gaslighting, triangulation, flying monkeys, etc  -- it all made sense, but it still took a few years before it all clicked.  Initially, I was like a deer in the headlights.  I responded to manipulation and boundary breaks with confusion.  It would take me several days before I could articulate to myself how I was being manipulated and how my boundaries were being crossed.  It took several years of reading about these things, and continually dealing with conflicts before I could quickly identify how I was being manipulated.  I still find it upsetting.

One thing we all learn here in dealing with high conflict people, is that you can't change the dysfunctional person.  You can only change how you respond to them and focus on your own growth. 


 

[No-One]

MaxRoach:
Sorry you have had a rough week.  I'm going to throw out a possible theory that your dad's behavior stems from his OCD.  Check out the two links below and the excerpts:

A study, per the link below, indicates that people with OCD can have anger attacks.
Anger attacks in obsessive compulsive disorder

Anger attacks are present in half of the patients with obsessive compulsive disorder, and they correlate with the presence of comorbid depression.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23271866

We see the irony of OCD. Those with obsessive-compulsive disorder strive to bring order, certainty, and safety to their world, yet the more they become a slave to OCD, the more the opposite happens.
https://psychcentral.com/lib/ocd-and-rage/

The one reference above indicated that 50% of people with OCD can have what is referred to as "anger attacks".  He likely wants order, certainty and safety (per the 2nd reference) in regard to your sister.  I'm thinking that he sees you as a target to be her rescuer and savior (especially after he dies).  He wants to be able to control the situation, but he can't.  He became obsessed with it.

It might help you to Google a few more references on OCD.  There are variations.  One of the articles I found indicated that OCD can get worse with age.  If you dad isn't on any meds or treatment, his OCD could get extreme at times (like your recent situation with him).  I know you said your father said therapy didn't help him, but perhaps it's time for him to revisit the situation with qualified professionals (i.e. psychiatrist for med eval & therapist with experience with OCD)

He kept complaining that I don't talk about my life and my salary with him, and also asked in a very derogatory and rhetorical manner, "I'm sure you tell your girlfriend your salary, but not us". When I told him that I don't even tell my girlfriend, then he seemed a bit satisfied.

You are entitled to have boundaries.  I never shared my salary with my parents & certainly NOT my sister.  I've always thought it to be personal and best kept to myself. My dad asked me a few times about my salary, but I'd just reply "I make enough & doing fine".

That being said, I was always financially self-sufficient and never asked anyone in my family for money.

I think you are wise to keep your financial situation private.  If someone has been financially responsible and hits a rough patch in life, and is asking a parent for financial help - then you need to share some details.

I think you did fine with standing your ground with boundaries about your salary and not rescuing your sister.  If you dad is in an angry state because of his OCD, it could be best to cut a conversation short (instead of staying on the phone for verbal abuse).  Perhaps terminate a future angry conversation with, "Sounds like you are having a bad day.  I'll let you go now.  We can talk on another day when things are better". 

[MaxRoach]

Hi,

I have a slight update here and would really appreciate help navigating it.

I've had 5 months of NC with my sister and honestly, I'm loving the peace (beyond the hiccups with my dad as mentioned above).

My dad is now visiting the city where we both love. He says its just to visit my sisters new house, but I also know its to get us to start talking again. He's visiting for 4 days and probably expects me to meet him everyday (at least for dinner). And meeting him will entail my sister's presence. I'm really struggling with a few things here:

- After 5 months of NC with my sister, what am I supposed to do when I see her? How am I supposed to behave? There will be dinners with a larger group and that I can manage. But when it's just the 3 of us, how am I supposed to behave?

- He doesn't carry a phone so the only way to reach him would be through my sister. I just don't want to call her or message her at all.

- I know he'll put pressure but I just do not want to change the NC status. I'm much, much more peaceful without her presence in my life. I'm scared he'll lose his temper.

- I genuinely have a very busy week at work and won't be able to meet him much. How do I deal with that? He doesn't see that my work is important enough to not spend time with him and (especially) my sister, so this will be another point of tension.

I'd really appreciate help on this.

[Harri]

Hi MaxRoach!  Long time!

- After 5 months of NC with my sister, what am I supposed to do when I see her? How am I supposed to behave? There will be dinners with a larger group and that I can manage. But when it's just the 3 of us, how am I supposed to behave?

Behave like you normally would with anyone.  Be cool, pleasant and appropriately distant.  Do not engage in conflict and just be yourself.  Assert you boundaries.

- He doesn't carry a phone so the only way to reach him would be through my sister. I just don't want to call her or message her at all.

Why would you need to call her?  Let him be the one to call you if he wants to talk or get together.   

- I genuinely have a very busy week at work and won't be able to meet him much. How do I deal with that? He doesn't see that my work is important enough to not spend time with him and (especially) my sister, so this will be another point of tension.

Do what you need to do for work and let him resolve any conflict he may feel on his own.  You can't really control how he reacts other than being calm, kind and firm in saying "Oh, that time is not good for me, what about this night instead to have dinner?"  While it may be frustrating that he does not view your work as important, you do and his opinion does not change that.  You do not need to defend or explain why you are not available. 

- I know he'll put pressure but I just do not want to change the NC status. I'm much, much more peaceful without her presence in my life. I'm scared he'll lose his temper.

If you do not want to change it, then don't change it.  If you want to, agree to get together when other people will be around.  Politely decline invitations where it is just you, your father and sister.  You are busy, you have long standing plans, etc.

What scares you about him losing his temper?   

Have you been working on learning the tools and boundaries we talk about here while you have been no contact with your sister?  They will be helpful when dealing with your dad too.

[MaxRoach]

Hi

It seems like I didn’t read this in tome. The first day we met, he tried to get us to hug as soon as we confronted but we both resisted. There were other people so I could ignore her.

Today was similar - a dinner with other people. However on the way he out he took me to the corner and start asking me to end it. He says stuff like - I am begging you please end this. I told him I’m not the problem here. I told him how he dudnt even acknowledge the way he made me cry a few weeks. Anything I said didn’t register with him. All he cared was - please stop the fight. He told me I was overreacting to one abuse. That I didn’t care about relationships. And started begging again.

I got angry and just left. And dropped a note to my sister finally saying what I wanted to for months - that she’s ruined my relationship with my father.

[Panda39]

I'm sorry to hear how everything went down.  Your sister and dad got you there and your dad upped the pressure (literally cornering you), I'm so sorry he did that and I think it was a good decision to leave. How are you doing now?

I got angry and just left. And dropped a note to my sister finally saying what I wanted to for months - that she’s ruined my relationship with my father.

Your sister is one thing but what do you think your dad's role in all of this is?  Does he have choices?  Is he free to make his own decisions?

Panda39

[MaxRoach]

Hi Panda,

Thanks for this question, and I think recent events have confirmed to me that perhaps my dad has BPD episodes as well.

As a follow up, when I walked away from my dad after he insisted I talk to my sister, he became completely normal the remainder of the trip. He didn't bring up the issue once, and we had a quite pleasant few days. And he didn't bring it up all till today.

My dad's been feeling quite lonely and depressed recently, so I decided to pay him a surprise visit yesterday. We had a peaceful first day, but he brought up my sister again today, and we had a fairly dramatic episode.

I wasn't angry or upset with the episode, but more frustrated 'cos I could see it coming from a mile away and I fell into the trap. He kept probing bit by bit, and eventually I started engaging, explaining, justifying myself. It started in a fairly light-hearted manner, but as I kept engaging, he kept saying things that were nastier and nastier, till a point where I got triggered and started howling and crying. I even got abusive for 5-10 seconds. He knew exactly what the sensitive points were and started screaming at them to me - how I have animosity towards my sister, how this is all my girlfriends fault, how I am obsessed with my friends and I will do away with my family. How he and my sister are dead for him. I kept crying and howling and begging, but he kept on going. It was such a deja vu for me, 'cos its the same pattern of fights we keep having. I engage and it goes from there. I walk away and he calms down.

He's also been showing other BPD tendencies. Despite my surprising him (i.e., doing something nice for him), he got upset that I didn't bring his favorite food from where I live. I told him I didn't have time, but he started accusing that I'm too busy with my work, just like how I didn't get pick him up from the airport when I visited 'cos of my work (as an aisde, I had a workshop with a client that could not be moved; when I asked him what about when my sister has a work commitment and he said 'that's different, she can't change it').

It hit me - who else ignores the good you do for them, and finds faults? Yup, my sister.

It's a bit scary that my dad is increasingly appearing like an adult version of my sister, and I can start seeing how much my mother suffers.

I'm also sad (not really angry) that I fell into the trap and engaged with him. I was looking forward to spending time with him as I quite enjoy it, but now I'm with him for 4 days with this fight looming. A few questions:

- How should I behave tomorrow when we wake up? Do I apologise for abusing and then simply hope things get okay? What if he's still angry?

- How do I stop myself from falling into this pattern of engaging? It's so clear to me that it was a trap, yet I couldn't stop myself. Why do I do it?

[MaxRoach]

I'm reading a bit about extinction bursts on this forum, and it seems what I've done is given my dad intermittent reinforcement. And it seems once it's done, it's very hard to unlearn.

What shall I do now? Does that mean by efforts of not engaging have gone to waste? 

[Harri]

Hi.  How did this morning go for you?

I'm reading a bit about extinction bursts on this forum, and it seems what I've done is given my dad intermittent reinforcement. And it seems once it's done, it's very hard to unlearn.

What shall I do now? Does that mean by efforts of not engaging have gone to waste?

I don't think your efforts have gone to waste.  Intermittent reinforcement is powerful and hard to break but it can be done through consistency over time.  Keep at it.   

We need to be clear in our boundaries and make sure they are solid and that we are ready/willing to ride through any consequences that may go along with them.  That means riding out the discomfort we feel when establishing boundaries and following through on them.  Looking back and knowing how things turned out, what would you do differently?

I would also recommend starting off with a smaller boundary when possible, get some practice in and have a few in the success column before tackling a big one.

- How do I stop myself from falling into this pattern of engaging? It's so clear to me that it was a trap, yet I couldn't stop myself. Why do I do it?

To answer why you do it - the simple answer is you do it because that is how you learned to interact with him and to try to get your needs met and be heard.  You have had that pattern for a long time and it is going to take time to unlearn it.  It is conditioned behavior.  Stopping it will happen though as you work on yourself, changing the way you interact, developing a better working knowledge of your own needs and tendencies and how you react when in conflict or in emotionally charged situations.  Learning how you respond when dealing with people like your sister and father.  All of that can be done by learning about human nature, the disordered behaviors involved and through a lot of hard work in terms of managing your own emotions.  That is what we work on here.

I would recommend spending more time here and posting even when things are more stable.  It is certainly okay to post when in a crisis.  We are here for you.  It is also easier to learn new ways and to gain insight when you are not emotionally charged due to a conflict.