Drama Triangle question

[Our abuse recovery guide]

I’ve been reading about the Karpman Drama Triangle. It’s a little hard to grasp, but will reread until it sinks in.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

When I think about situations in my family, I can see the roles shift constantly. Is that how it works? I understand that the role you had growing up in your family is the one that is most automatic and “comfortable”.

Can anyone give concrete examples of these suggestions from the article? Especially the second one. (Sorry I couldn’t figure out the quote tool!)

“Move to the center. Stop participating as a victim, rescuer or persecutor. Instead, find and hold a center position. The center of the drama triangle contains elements of each corner - it is a combination of sensitivity, compassion, and responsibility - with a solutions focus, even if the solution is retreat.

Refuse to accept your opponent's force. Do not struggle with the other participants in the triangle, or yield to them. Instead, make a counter move with one opponent that allows them to fully take an awkward, indefensible, or unreasonable position. If you have successfully taken the center, your opponent will back off, rather than unmasking themselves and their exaggerated role.. Stop participating as a victim, rescuer or persecutor. Instead, find and hold a center position. The center of the drama triangle contains elements of each corner - it is a combination of sensitivity, compassion, and responsibility - with a solutions focus, even if the solution is retreat.”

Thanks to you all.

[podsnapG]

I’ve been reading about the Karpman Drama Triangle. It’s a little hard to grasp, but will reread until it sinks in.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

When I think about situations in my family, I can see the roles shift constantly. Is that how it works? I understand that the role you had growing up in your family is the one that is most automatic and “comfortable”.

Can anyone give concrete examples of these suggestions from the article? Especially the second one. (Sorry I couldn’t figure out the quote tool!)

“Move to the center. Stop participating as a victim, rescuer or persecutor. Instead, find and hold a center position. The center of the drama triangle contains elements of each corner - it is a combination of sensitivity, compassion, and responsibility - with a solutions focus, even if the solution is retreat.

Refuse to accept your opponent's force. Do not struggle with the other participants in the triangle, or yield to them. Instead, make a counter move with one opponent that allows them to fully take an awkward, indefensible, or unreasonable position. If you have successfully taken the center, your opponent will back off, rather than unmasking themselves and their exaggerated role.. Stop participating as a victim, rescuer or persecutor. Instead, find and hold a center position. The center of the drama triangle contains elements of each corner - it is a combination of sensitivity, compassion, and responsibility - with a solutions focus, even if the solution is retreat.”

Thanks to you all.

[No-One]

Can anyone give concrete examples of these suggestions from the article? Especially the second one.

The goal is avoid the extreme behaviors of each role and to stay within healthy boundaries. Perhaps the article below could be helpful:

The Drama Triangle
by Steve Karpman with Comments by Patty E. Fleener M.S.W.

Purpose: To promote the life script. The roles of Persecutor, Rescuer and Victim are portrayed in psychological games. Serves as a training ground for powerlessness. Prevents psychological equality in relationships.

Will go on as long as someone is willing to be victimized.

Think if you will about a triangle. On each end are roles that we play in life. One is the persecutor, another is the victim and the last is the rescuer.

**If anyone in this triangle changes roles, the other two roles change as well.

PERSECUTOR - "It's All Your Fault"
Sets strict limits unnecessarily.
Blames
Criticizes
Keeps Victim oppressed
Is mobilized by anger
Rigid, authoritative stance
"Critical" Parent

TO GET OFF THIS TRIANGLE, MOVE TO CLEAR STRUCTURE

VICTIM - "Poor Me"
Feels victimized, oppressed, helpless, hopeless, powerless, ashamed
Looks for a Rescuer that will perpetuate their negative feelings.
If stays in Victim position, will block self from making decisions, solving problems, pleasure and self-understanding.
"Dejected" stance.

TO GET OFF THIS TRIANGLE, MOVE TO PROBLEM SOLVING

RESCUER - "Let Me Help You"
Rescues when really doesn't want to.
Feels guilty if doesn't rescue.
Keeps victim dependent.
Gives permission to fail.
Expects to fail in rescue attempts.
"Marshmallow" Parent

TO GET OFF THIS TRIANGLE, MOVE TO CLEAR NURTURING

SOURCE:  SCRIPTS PEOPLE LIVE BY by Claude Steiner
BORN TO WIN by Muriel James
TAJ, Script Drama Analysis
*****
EXAMPLES by Patty Fleener M.S.W.
Small Example
During the time my daughter and I were staying with my girlfriend and her daughter I was missing a very expensive pair of earrings - over $200. worth and announced to everyone what they looked like and had they seen them. Nope, no one had seen them.

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Finally, one day, suspicious of my girlfriend's daughter, I went into her room and looked into her jewelry box and THERE were my earrings. I snatched them back and when everyone was home later that night I told everyone where I had found my earrings.

I was clearly the victim right? The persecutor was clearly my girlfriend's daughter and either my girlfriend or my daughter who was very young could have been the rescuer.

Well! My girlfriend clearly would not come out of denial that her daughter had taken them and her daughter denied taking them stating she had no idea how they wound up in her jewelry box, so my girlfriend began to feel angry at me for blaming her daughter, making me the persecutor and her daughter the victim and my girlfriend clearly the rescuer.

Do you see how my girlfriend changed everyone's roles?

Large Example
My ex, at least according to him, was physically and emotionally abused by his family of origin.

I have witnessed him in every situation in life imaginable to take the role of the VICTIM. In fact, I have never seen anyone play that role so fiercely as him.

He receives a great deal of attention and loves the "nurturing" of the rescuer.

He actually creates situations in which he will appear to be a victim. It is almost as if he has to play the victim ten times a month. He is constantly on the lookout for a "PERPETRATOR." He will do anything to make the person appear to perpetrate. In order to do this, he lies (has admitted he has been a chronic liar all of his life) about the "perpetrator" and about himself being victimized.

He has taken arguments we have had where I have said "Oh, come on!" and gently and barely touched his elbow (It is merely a gesture) and called the police stating he has been hit.

It is very dangerous to be around someone who is an extreme victim. I understood very quickly that a police record was going to start if I stayed with him.

He has told me for 6 years that his two ex-wives hit him all the time - beat him up even. Yet when he moves closer to his step-daughter from the first marriage he changes the story to not being actually hit but being verbally abused always saying "I never said that" when confronted with his lies.

Now that we have split up he tells everyone he knows and even my own family, that I hit him all the time for 6 years. Of course I have not once hit him, once however being so angry acted as if. Victims like this many times purposely try to anger the person to act like a perpetrator so that they can claim their victim status. This is not true however of "battered wives." That is another area altogether.

His step-daughter who I once got along well with, believes the lies that are told. lt is very important to her to do that even though she has been told he lies a great deal. This man is the only person in her life who plays a father role and grandfather for her children in exception of her father-in-law. She is deeply invested emotionally in believing him and must keep a good image of this man for her own needs.

This is also the man who completely took my website, my work of 6 years since his name happened to be on it at the time and I could not afford an attorney. He also keeps my share of the proceeds of the website and presents himself as creating more of the website then he has actually done which is almost nothing.

Be very careful of victims in your life. You may find yourself in lawful and legal trouble over lies.

Be very careful who you rescue in your life as well. You may be seeing the situation from one side only. Also victims need to learn to stand on their own feet without a rescuer. If you want to help someone, work on getting that person to take care of themselves, stop blaming others and function without needing rescuers all their lives. It is very important for the victim to take full responsibility over their life as they like to point the finger at others.

[Notwendy]

My way of staying center is to not intervene as much as possible and not assuming victim or rescuer role as much as I can. I'm not much into persecutor role, but I do get cast as it.

My BPD mother's preferred role is "victim". There can't be more than one victim. Even like, in the case of the earrings above, if she did do something, I can not approach her as if she did something to me. That doesn't work.

Neither can I step in as rescuer.

One way to stay out of the triangle is to not react emotionally to her. She may say something to me that upsets me. Rather than act hurt, I just don't react. She's manipulative, sometimes she says things to get to me, it gives her power. By not reacting as a victim, I stay out of the drama. This doesn't mean I don't have boundaries- if she's being unreasonable. I can walk away, tell her I have to go and get off the phone, but I don't react from a hurt position.

I avoid being rescuer by avoiding giving her advice, or stepping in when I don't need to. Of course, if it were something potentially harmful to her, I would step in but she's an adult, and can make her own decisions, even if I don't agree with them or think they are the best.

Staying mindful of my own "rescuer" and enabling tendencies helps.

[podsnapG]

Thankful you both for those examples- it is all starting to make sense. I recognize now my tendency to take on the victim and rescuer role. As the youngest child with two older brothers, I was often the victim, and as an adult whenever I'm overwhelmed cast myself as the victim. My BPD sister-in-law usually takes on the hurt/persecuted victim... there have been times I took that role back from her by getting overwhelmed, then she became rescuer? What a strange dance...

I like the idea of not reacting and stepping into the center (or out of the triangle) I am taking steps to take care of myself and "move to problem solving". Acknowledging my own anger and hurt outside of the interactions might help- I have a counselor and have found that writing it all down sometimes  helps.

I'm meeting my brother and SIL for dinner next week, so preparing myself for being cast as the persecutor. I'm trying to resume communication as we have issues regarding our mom to deal with. Current "crisis" is that they feel hurt and left out by my husband and I. At this point my husband doesn't want to be around them- probably best because he gets very upset by them (he's my rescuer!) and likely would not be able to "step to the center".  SIL gets my brother riled up so he is always angry at me. I need to watch that I don't fall into the familiar victim role with him.

Lots of food for thought. Thanks again.