Was planning an Intervention - will she ever forgive me?

[Warriorprincess]

Hi again,
This is my second post on a new topic. A few months ago, I had talked to my Wife’s sister about my W’s angry outbursts, name-calling, blaming/ making everything someone else’s fault, and W’s sister said things like this have been happening since W was in middle school. W’s sister suggested that W has BPD. Once I read about BPD, the diagnosis seemed spot on, and I started reading Stop Walking on Eggshells. During the Spring, W started getting more violent when upset (ie, ripping Son’s Christmas lights off the wall, throwing S’s office chair at him, slamming doors, throwing her cell phone on the floor and bending it, shoving me (first time physical towards me). I became very concerned for our S and talked to W’s parents about my concerns. W’s family and I started talking about doing an intervention with W to try to force her to get help. Well this plan completely backfired in my face.
When W realized that her family was talking behind her back, she tried to kill herself and went into mental health treatment. The MH facility diagnosed her with major depressive disorder and alcohol abuse, and she went into an intensive outpatient program for the dally diagnosed. I suggested to her therapists that they test her for BPD, and they told me it didn’t matter. W told me they “laughed” at that idea. W is learning a lot in therapy but absolutely livid with me for “betraying” her by talking to her parents about our problems. She now calls me an armchair psychologist diagnosing people erroneously. She is indignant that she does not have BPD and is not “crazy.” I don’t know whether i should try to explain why I think she has BPD or just apologize profusely and say I was wrong? Obviously I don’t want to do the latter, but I wonder if anyone has experience with being forgiven for planning an intervention? She also thought I was trying to get our S sent away because I wanted to get rid of him, but really I was just worried about his safety (I suggested that perhaps he live with his grandparents for a year, as many teenagers do). He has threatened suicide many times thinking that his mother hates him, and I’m afraid one day he’s going to really hurt himself.
Help please! Thank you.
-Warriorprincess

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[Harri]

Hi.  Thanks for giving us more information about your situation and the circumstances surrounding your wife's suicide attempt.

You ask if she will ever forgive you for talking with her family.  It is hard to say for sure.  We have had other members try similar things with family and their pwBPD got extremely upset and felt betrayed.  Some pwBPD can, with time and therapy, come to understand what prompted you to take the action.  right now, things are raw and she has only just begun treatment.  Generally speaking, one of the last things covered in therapy is how ones actions affect others.  The goal right now may be to stabilize her behavior, eliminate suicidal gestures and ideation and getting her alcoholism under control.   Learning better coping skills will also be focused on more immediately.  

Have you had a chance to read some of the articles we have that discuss listening and communication strategies?  I ask because I think learning them may help you manage some of these discussions.  The tools and strategies we use are to help us and they can sometimes help our loved ones.

A good one to start with is:  

A 3 Minute Lesson on Ending Conflict

.  a lot of our members find this very helpful.

Another tool you may find helpful is Communication Skills - Don't Be Invalidating I am not saying you are doing anything wrong exactly.  I am saying that pwBPD interpret things differently and are highly sensitive.   This often means they feel invalidated even we we say things with the best intentions and are trying to make things better.  Instead, we end up invalidating them and they can dysregulate or escalate in their behaviors.  So avoiding invalidating them can sometimes go a long way when trying to communicate.

See what you think and we can talk about them some more.  

[Warriorprincess]

Hi Harri,
Thank you for the thoughtful reply. It’s hard to hear that I’ve been part of the problem; I feel so upset that my W flies off the handle like she does. I want to be right about thinking of protecting our boys instead of trying to reason with someone who is consumed by her emotions. I understand now that it takes a radically different way of thinking to stop the conflict in a relationship with a pwBPD, and I’m angry that I have to be the one responsible to start the change.
I did read the articles you referenced, and they are helpful. One of them talked about how the partner of a pwBPD likely has extra need for emotional validation as well, which I do. It felt good to be acknowledged in that way. My reaction, however, is to feel grief that I may never get what I need in trying to help balance my W. It also hurts that she keeps bringing up the same offenses over and over, as proof that I betrayed her and don’t have her back. I’ve realized that since I have a huge need for approval, i have a very hard time not taking in my W’s accusations of me and feeling awful, like I’m a terrible person. I just want to run away from it, make it stop, and I’m trying to learn to stay in there, talk it through when my W is calm again.
Today is my W and my last family session in her intensive outpatient program; she’s being discharged tomorrow. She does have a therapist and psychiatrist lined up for ongoing sessions, but I am terrified that the changes she’s making won’t last. I hate to be a pessimist but I’m hurt and disillusioned. I appreciate this group and the resources I’ve found here. I want to believe I can be strong enough to see us through.
Thanks again,
Warriorprincess

[Harri]

Hi.   

It’s hard to hear that I’ve been part of the problem;

We all have a part in our relationships.  None of this is intuitive so take the opportunity to learn.  it is not just to help your wife but to help yourself as well.  If you think about it, 27% of the population have a diagnosable disorder.   Learning strategies and tools offered here will help in all relationships (work, friends, family, romance).  The biggest benefit though it to help us with our own issues.  I know learning them has helped me a great deal. 

That said, it was hard to accept that I had a role in the break down of the relationship that brought me here.  I did though, even though it was one I was born into (my mother was mentally ill).  Again, we all play a part.  Seeing that, we can turn to blame or see it as a responsibility.  Blame is a matter of shame and anger.  For me, seeing it as a responsibility issue was freeing as it helped me see I have control over at least part of the dynamic.   I was/am not helpless.  I can change what I do and how I respond and I have the ability to make choices, regardless of how the relationship turns out.

My reaction, however, is to feel grief that I may never get what I need in trying to help balance my W.

This is very important and a natural point in grieving the relationship we dreamed of.  I know that does not make it easier though.  This stuff hurts.

I’ve realized that since I have a huge need for approval, i have a very hard time not taking in my W’s accusations of me and feeling awful, like I’m a terrible person. I just want to run away from it, make it stop, and I’m trying to learn to stay in there, talk it through when my W is calm again.

This is so hard especially when our own triggers and sensitivities are taking a hit.   How is she with you when she is calm?  Is she able to see you beyond her own feelings and possible projections?  Are you able to see her? 

Today is my W and my last family session in her intensive outpatient program; she’s being discharged tomorrow. She does have a therapist and psychiatrist lined up for ongoing sessions, but I am terrified that the changes she’s making won’t last.

What sort of support do you have other than us here?  We can help a lot as you learn the tools and look within yourself as well as try to figure out new coping strategies and better ways of communicating.

I hate to be a pessimist but I’m hurt and disillusioned.

Can you list out what hurts you and is causing disillusionment without talking about her behaviors?  Focus on you, your triggers and hurts.

Please let us know how your last session goes too.

 

[Warriorprincess]

Hi Harri,
Thank you for the virtual hug! I miss hugs so much because my W often doesn’t want to be touched. And even if she’ll tolerate my touch, she doesn’t give much affection back. I miss it.
 
I see your point about not being helpless - I can make a difference in helping our relationship improve by growing as a person, remaining calm, and getting better at SET. That acronym is helpful. But I’m so methodical that I have to think about the letters, then figure out how I’m going to provide what they stand for. By that time, she says I’m not being authentic. I guess I just need practice.
When she is calm, we often have good times - we like hiking, going to movies, drinking coffee, going camping. No, I do not feel seen or understood, and I don’t think I see her anymore either. Tonight we had an argument that revealed that I expect the worst out of her, just as she expects the worst out of me.  The good news is that she appeared to care that I was crying (often she doesn’t) and waited until I gave some reasons why. Then she started problem-solving. No comfort, no empathy...In fact, it started with a form of “I told you so” followed by telling me what to do. But it was way above average in this house.
I am working on building a bigger support network for myself - I have an appointment with a new therapist, I am a member of codependents anonymous, and I’m trying to figure out how to see my friends more.
The last session went pretty well. The therapist introduced us to the victim-persecuter-rescuer triangle. Both of us move up & down around the triangle and tend to keep it going. She gave us some articles to read and had us practice how to make requests of each other, instead of mind reading.
You asked how I am hurt and disillusioned. It scares me that I may not be strong enough or mature enough for both of us. I want to be taken care of too, and I thought my partner and I would go back and forth taking care of each other (that’s pretty much the definition of co-dependent - I want to help everyone else in the hopes that one day they’ll take care of me). It hurts that I was taken in again and believed (again) that the way it was in the beginning would last forever, or at least both partners would be willing to do silly things or even go to therapy to bring the magic back. I’m disillusioned about love and marriage; I feel that if my W and I break up, I will not get married again - it’s nothing like what I hoped for, nothing like my dreams. I was abused and neglected as a child, and I used to dream about what my life would be like when that special person noticed me, loved me, and wanted to give me everything in life. And I swore I would give it all back to them. I fear that she’s dreaming of the same thing and I’m so broken that I can’t give it to her either.
That’s where I’m at. I’m exhausted and overwhelmed. What sounds most appealing is living alone and just having friends from now on, not a W or family. I don’t like the thought of giving up, but the roller coaster ride is making me feel so sick.
Thanks for listening,
Warriorprincess

[Chosen]

Hi Warriorprincess,

You asked whether your w would "forgive" you for "betraying" her.  Ok, so I haven't staged any intervention (I have a uBPDh), but my h would say I have betrayed him if I only talk about him with somebody else.  So in my case, if I were to stage an intervention, he would of course mock me and call me an armchair psychologist, then he would also never get treated and also never, ever forgive me.  Because he never forgives me for anything.  When things are going ok he may not mention it, but when there are downs in the relationship (and it happens all the time because pwBPDs will make it a "down" even when it's a tiny bump), he will bring up everything that I have ever done to "betray" him, and list how it means I'm a horrible piece of s*** and why I can never be trusted...

I think h's family know something's "wrong" with him too, like your w's sister, but then if they got by so many years without intervening (or have failed attempts, same difference), then why would they succeed now?

[Warriorprincess]

Dear Chosen,
I can see that you totally get it; thank you for writing! And you’re right - this is certainly not the only thing my W has not forgiven me for. But she’s sneaky - she said “I’ve already forgiven you” but then she keeps bringing it up and up and up, yelling at me in fresh ways about the same thing. The therapist told me that if she keeps bringing it up, then she doesn’t feel heard. I’ve been working on hearing validating her. It is hard to do since often I don’t know what’s set her off in the first place. And she doesn’t know either. I asked her in the family session how I can help when she just wakes up pissed; she said she doesn’t know and she’s working on figuring out why that happens.
A couple things I’ve been considering - I’ve heard that in life we just keep choosing partners who are like the parent we have the most conflict with. My mom was diagnosed with bipolar disorder when I was a child. She responded to that diagnosis by saying, “Can you believe those crazy doctors?” So I was left alone often, or brought to a party where I could be the center of attention for being pretty or dancing for everyone, or driven around recklessly, or treated like an adult and my mom’s confidante in 2nd grade, and I was sexually abused by another family member. I see now that my codependency started young, as I tried to take care of my mom and neglected myself, and certainly learned to ignore my gut. And almost every partner Ive had reminded me of my mother: alcoholic, anger issues, wouldn’t settle down, had unexpressed and baffling expectations of me, and now BPD.
At this moment, I’m more concerned about how I can make this work for me than if my W will ever forgive me. I’m here for the kids, and they still would choose her over me any day and twice on Sundays. They’re learning that love must be earned. I’m trying to keep my love unconditional. I’m also trying not to stay a victim, but depression is a killer.
-Warriorprincess

[Harri]

Have some more hugs then!       

I guess I just need practice.

Yep, practice and time.   I think of the tools as being mostly for us, to help us protect ourself and also give us a chance of being heard.  As we practice more, it gets easier and they in turn can help us connect in meaningful ways with our loved ones.  Don't forget the other tools as well.  Some people do better focusing on things like Don't JADE and Don't invalidate while also trying to use set... but yeah, practice will make a difference.

No, I do not feel seen or understood, and I don’t think I see her anymore either. Tonight we had an argument that revealed that I expect the worst out of her, just as she expects the worst out of me.

It is actually very good that you can see this.   Seeing how we are reacting rather than responding helps to see our role and possibly figure out a way to stay connected without being overwhelmed.

The good news is that she appeared to care that I was crying (often she doesn’t) and waited until I gave some reasons why. Then she started problem-solving. No comfort, no empathy...In fact, it started with a form of “I told you so” followed by telling me what to do. But it was way above average in this house.

This may be the best she can do, ever, or right now.  Is it workable for you at this point?

I am working on building a bigger support network for myself - I have an appointment with a new therapist, I am a member of codependents anonymous, and I’m trying to figure out how to see my friends more.

Excellent!  Stay connected here too.  

The last session went pretty well. The therapist introduced us to the victim-persecuter-rescuer triangle. Both of us move up & down around the triangle and tend to keep it going. She gave us some articles to read and had us practice how to make requests of each other, instead of mind reading.

Good.  We have an article titled Ending Conflict: The Karpman Drama Triangle and we refer to it a lot.  We all triangulate to an extent but in our relationships it is often unhealthy triangulation and that just leads to more conflict so I am glad your T talked with the both of you about that.

You asked how I am hurt and disillusioned. It scares me that I may not be strong enough or mature enough for both of us. I want to be taken care of too, and I thought my partner and I would go back and forth taking care of each other (that’s pretty much the definition of co-dependent - I want to help everyone else in the hopes that one day they’ll take care of me).

 This is painful.  Unfortunately, our partners may never be able to meet our needs the way we want them to and we will often have to get our needs met in other ways.  Friendships, your ACOA group, therapy, here, all of it can be very validating and fulfilling.  I know it is not the same as having our romantic partner do it though.  As I heal more from my own trauma and disordered background  I realize that I expected my past partners to meet needs that were impossible and inappropriate.  I a not saying you are doing that as I have no idea.  I do think it is something you might want to take a look at either here or with a therapist of your own (I am a fan of therapy for certain things  )

It hurts that I was taken in again and believed (again) that the way it was in the beginning would last forever, or at least both partners would be willing to do silly things or even go to therapy to bring the magic back. I’m disillusioned about love and marriage; I feel that if my W and I break up, I will not get married again - it’s nothing like what I hoped for, nothing like my dreams.

What do you mean when you say "taken in again"?

I was abused and neglected as a child, and I used to dream about what my life would be like when that special person noticed me, loved me, and wanted to give me everything in life. And I swore I would give it all back to them.

Oh, I think I understand this too.  I think those of us with an abusive history tend to have unrealistic or distorted expectations.  I know I did.  Seeing that in our self is hard.  It is a place where I have had to use radical acceptance while working on becoming more self empowered.

I fear that she’s dreaming of the same thing and I’m so broken that I can’t give it to her either.

Turkish, a Senior Staff member here, often quotes someone here once saying we can't solve a problem with one person with another.   My family did not meet my needs and I spent a lot of my adulthood looking for others to fill those needs and heal those wounds.  Blergh!

That’s where I’m at. I’m exhausted and overwhelmed. What sounds most appealing is living alone and just having friends from now on, not a W or family. I don’t like the thought of giving up, but the roller coaster ride is making me feel so sick.

This is okay.  You are exhausted, hurt, disillusioned and want some peace.  That's okay and even healthy... for a while.  

Keep posting and reading and working on you.  Regardless of how this relationship may turn out, there are things to work on for *you* right?

We've got ya.

 

[Chosen]

At this moment, I’m more concerned about how I can make this work for me than if my W will ever forgive me.

I think that's the right path to take, and the tools here can do the job!  I give a lot of credit to this site to help me feel more "normal".  It's because of these tools that I'm not yet crazy!

My H always says he forgives me, but actually he never does, because he keeps bringing that up.  If I even dare to bring up anything from the past though... that would be a huge trigger for him.  He would say "I have forgiven you for xyz and you're still bringing up the past" (he kinda misses the point by saying that, right?).  But I think it's just the way their BPD brains work- every fresh wound brings back all the old wounds.

Hang in there.  It seems like you've had a pretty tough childhood   but self-realisation is the first step to helping yourself!  And your willingness to learn and cope means you are much, much more likely to succeed in doing so!

[Greenbrier]

One of the things I read in “Stop Walking on Eggshells” was this:

[blockquote]
“As you read this book, you may be eager to talk about BPD with the person you think has it. This is understandable. Learning about the disorder can be a powerful, transformational experience. The fantasy goes like this: the person will be grateful to you and will rush into therapy to conquer their demons.

Unfortunately, the reality differs. Family members repeatedly told us that their loved one instead responded with rage, denial, and a torrent of criticism. Frequently, the person with BPD traits accused the family member of being the one with the disorder.”
[/blockquote]

You have taken the approach of pushing your W into confronting a reality she will fight tenaciously to avoid.  It appears that it would be typical for her to escalate the ferocity of her defense mechanisms.  I don’t know how this will go, but perhaps in the end it will be better.  I will hope for the best. 

In my situation I have so far avoided telling my W that I think she’s borderline.  I have decided the best thing for me is to work on myself and set better boundaries.  I chip away at the edges, though. 

Once, in the middle of a fight about my thoughtlessness, she was ranting about me driving her somewhere without informing her where we were going.  I admitted I hadn’t communicated well, but I found that no apology was good enough.  “You pulled the rug out from under me,” She fumed. “It triggered me.”

I suggested that maybe something deeper and older was being triggered.  Maybe a memory of her mom pulling the rug out from under her.  “Do you fear abandonment?” 

She is smart and knew where this was going—She bristled, “I don’t have fears of abandonment, you asshole.  I’m not borderline.  You are the one who would be lost if I ever left.  You can’t even cook!  Do you think you’ll ever find someone else stupid enough to put up with you?”

I pointed out what an arrogant and condescending statement that was—when did I ever say to her that she’s lucky I married her because her only other options would be stupid people?  And anyway, what does that have to do with the issue at hand? Then, we hit pay dirt: “When you did that, I felt deeply hurt. I felt unloved.”

Anyway, we’ve had our moments of clarity since then, as well as moments of calamity.  It’s an ongoing roller coaster ride that I hope is generally improving.

[Chosen]

You are the one who would be lost if I ever left.  You can’t even cook!  Do you think you’ll ever find someone else stupid enough to put up with you?

Sounds a lot like something my uBPDh would say.  He tells me all the time I can't survive nor do anything without him, but in fact I have lived alone for quite some time and took care of myself just fine.  My suggestion is not to argue with them about this (this is what they believe to be true- it isn't, but they are entitled to their own beliefs.  Also they are looking for some sort of emotion from you.  If you say "no I can do well on my own" then they will take it as "you're planning to leave me", and if you agree with them then it would consolidate their view). 

I think it's because they have a fear of abandonment but they can't admit it, so they try to make you stay by convincing you that you're useless outside of them.  Probably projection as well, as they have poor sense of "me" and "you".  My H would often tell me "everything I do is for you only, I'm nothing apart from you", so he projects that as "you're noting apart from me".  I know it's not true but there's no point in trying to convince him of that.

[Warriorprincess]

Thank you everyone! I appreciate all the empathy and validation. It’s a breath of fresh air. I also appreciate the references to additional tools I can learn and use. Harri asked if I think the way my W responded to my crying the other day could be enough for me - I would say yes. At least I felt noticed and heard. When she ignores my feelings and crying, I just feel completely invisible, as I was in childhood. That is unacceptable. I do think I’ve had some unrealistic expectations of life, love and relationships, and I’m working on that. I agree that radical acceptance would be super helpful. I do get confused about the difference between radical acceptance and settling. I guess that’s because I’ve left every relationship I’ve been in, except for one (the last one). But this is also the first time that I’ve been legally married and there are kids involved, so those are definitely important factors to consider.
What I meant by “taken in” is that it feels to me like people change from who they were in the beginning of a relationship to the ongoing years starting in year 2. The romance dies, there’s no more sweet talk, no more urgency to be together. My head knows that this is somewhat normal since the love hormones are gone, but my heart rejects this notion. I would like to keep romance alive and surprise my partner with flowers and special dinners, etc. but my W says she doesn’t “need” that. She also told me that some of the language I use is “too flowery” so sounds insincere to her. I like poetic language. So my difficulty is trying to figure out what’s normal in a relationship and what I can realistically expect. I’d like to think too that I could just ask my partner for what I want, and they should want to do it to please me, but that’s certainly not the case with my W. And she naw acknowledges that she does not know what she needs and therefore doesn’t ask for it, whereas before she started treatment she expected me to anticipate her needs.
There’s definitely plenty to work on just for *me* and about *me* so that is my plan. Thank you for welcoming me into your community. This site is a Godsend.

[Warriorprincess]

Dear Greenbriar and Chosen -
So helpful to read your experiences, as they are so like mine. My W has said to me as well that I can never make it on my own, I have Mommy issues, I’m a user, I’ve never been without a relationship, and I’m lazy and want everything done for me. The tough part is there’s a tiny grain of truth in what she says so I have gone ballistic in the past, which she’ll use against me again and again (“You’re the crazy one. You don’t even know how loud you are. The kids are afraid of you. I’m afraid of you. All you do is yell.”). It’s all ridiculous but I feel guilty for the times I’ve lost it and sometimes believe I am a monster. The poor kids are torn between aligning with their mom (which they better do or there’ll be hell to pay) and telling their mom she has issues. I feel for them so much. I have to tell myself “Kids are resilient.” Then I just listen to them whenever they want to talk. I don’t talk badly about their mom to them.
It is encouraging that pwBPD can have moments of clarity and see their actual emotions and needs, instead of covering them up because their identity is so precarious. I find the statements fascinating that talk about how pwBPD have to make something about you because they can’t deal with making a mistake themselves- they may fall apart. That helps me to better understand my W’s suicide attempt.
I’m encouraged by all of you, hanging in there like I am. It helps to write out some of the awful things she’s said to me, then almost understand why. And be met by all of you with kindness and empathy. I did have a rough childhood, and sometimes I still feel sorry for myself because of it. But then I realize I have to make my own life what I want it to be, so it will help me and my W and the kids to learn and use the tools on here, and to keep coming back for support. I’ll be here!
Thanks again,
-Warriorprincess