What I wanted for so long; now that I have it, I am not so interested

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Some time ago, I mentioned how my uBPD H favours his adult children over me, showering them with expensive gifts.  For our twentieth wedding anniversary, H gave me a trinket of a gold ring with a ring of tiny diamond chips.  H and I are not wealthy, but last year H bought a nice new car and a new expensive motorcycle.

For years I stood by and watched as H sent his children to Europe, bought them new cars, sports equipment, paid for rehab (drug and alcohol), paid for apartment rent, etc.  I was livid and finally gave H a piece of my mind.

A few weeks later, H presented me with a handsome diamond ring.

Now that H has given me the ring, I no longer have the yearning for it. 

For two decades, I have wanted my uBPD H to treat me kindly as his wife, talk to me lovingly (H called me the worst names, the "B-word" and the "C-word"), to cherish me as his life partner.  I found him emotionally enmeshed with his adult children:  his son was a beer buddy and best pal, and his daughters were more like wives, telling him how to decorate the house, what color to paint the rooms, etc.  On one occasion, H's D had her legs in her F's lap, and he was giving her a foot massage.  All three children were calling for H to divorce me.  I had known them since they were all young children; their uNPD M left their F for her lover, and then married him. (The lover was a married man with a family.) I did my best to be a good role model, and I was paid with betrayal.

Add to this, I am now doubting staying in the R/S.  So many times over the years, I consulted with attorneys, I had a plan to leave if things got really bad.

And now I feel so little for H.  I know his FOO is more of a mess than mine was, and I know his BPD must be painful.  (I read the Eggshells book and the family guide by Randi Kreger, and they were immensely helpful.)

I love him, but I may not be IN love with him as a woman loves her spouse.  It's like I am looking at my own H as an outsider and an analyst.  I see his pettiness and irritation, and I no longer care if he divorces me.

In the past, H would make weekly threats to leave me (to the approval of his children, no doubt) or outright divorce threats.  He'd leave the house for the night in a fit of rage, screaming he was calling a lawyer in the morning.  He would overturn furniture, punch holes in walls, break dishes, break my property, scream how I was such a horrible and worthless person.  (I later found out he slept in his car, too cheap to get a hotel room, in the company parking lot.)  On those occasions, I would be sobbing hysterically, deeply distraught, crying to much to even sleep, sad at the empty space on his side of the bed.  I was a mess the next day, and for days after. My face was such a mess from crying, and I excused my appearance to allergies.

Now I look back at those days of abandonment, withholding approval and affection (abuse, really), and I wonder why it was so easy for him to devastate me.  My self-esteem has grown over the years, and I know I can make it alone should he divorce me.  It's clear that he was projecting his rage over his uNPD XW and her leaving him, and how he felt about his parents raising him (FIL is uBPD/NPD.)

[AskingWhy]

Some time ago, I mentioned how my uBPD H favours his adult children over me, showering them with expensive gifts.  For our twentieth wedding anniversary, H gave me a trinket of a gold ring with a ring of tiny diamond chips.  H and I are not wealthy, but last year H bought a nice new car and a new expensive motorcycle.

For years I stood by and watched as H sent his children to Europe, bought them new cars, sports equipment, paid for rehab (drug and alcohol), paid for apartment rent, etc.  I was livid and finally gave H a piece of my mind.

A few weeks later, H presented me with a handsome diamond ring.

Now that H has given me the ring, I no longer have the yearning for it. 

For two decades, I have wanted my uBPD H to treat me kindly as his wife, talk to me lovingly (H called me the worst names, the "B-word" and the "C-word"), to cherish me as his life partner.  I found him emotionally enmeshed with his adult children:  his son was a beer buddy and best pal, and his daughters were more like wives, telling him how to decorate the house, what color to paint the rooms, etc.  On one occasion, H's D had her legs in her F's lap, and he was giving her a foot massage.  All three children were calling for H to divorce me.  I had known them since they were all young children; their uNPD M left their F for her lover, and then married him. (The lover was a married man with a family.) I did my best to be a good role model, and I was paid with betrayal.

Add to this, I am now doubting staying in the R/S.  So many times over the years, I consulted with attorneys, I had a plan to leave if things got really bad.

And now I feel so little for H.  I know his FOO is more of a mess than mine was, and I know his BPD must be painful.  (I read the Eggshells book and the family guide by Randi Kreger, and they were immensely helpful.)

I love him, but I may not be IN love with him as a woman loves her spouse.  It's like I am looking at my own H as an outsider and an analyst.  I see his pettiness and irritation, and I no longer care if he divorces me.

In the past, H would make weekly threats to leave me (to the approval of his children, no doubt) or outright divorce threats.  He'd leave the house for the night in a fit of rage, screaming he was calling a lawyer in the morning.  He would overturn furniture, punch holes in walls, break dishes, break my property, scream how I was such a horrible and worthless person.  (I later found out he slept in his car, too cheap to get a hotel room, in the company parking lot.)  On those occasions, I would be sobbing hysterically, deeply distraught, crying to much to even sleep, sad at the empty space on his side of the bed.  I was a mess the next day, and for days after. My face was such a mess from crying, and I excused my appearance to allergies.

Now I look back at those days of abandonment, withholding approval and affection (abuse, really), and I wonder why it was so easy for him to devastate me.  My self-esteem has grown over the years, and I know I can make it alone should he divorce me.  It's clear that he was projecting his rage over his uNPD XW and her leaving him, and how he felt about his parents raising him (FIL is uBPD/NPD.)

[Notwendy]

It's interesting how that happens. You want so badly for the person to show they care for you and then when it happens, it's like meh...

I think this will take some soul searching. Is this part of the push pull- and since you have changed some, is he pushing again ( which leads you to pull) and if he pulled back would you then be wanting him?

Is this too late? You got the ring but only after a long time of disappointment and being treated poorly, so that now you have it but so much has happened that it has changed your perspective.

Or is it not the ring you wanted but the relationship that the ring symbolized? He  bought the ring but is he still treating you poorly?

Or is he actually really trying to change things? Is this a first step? If so, then I think it's important to acknowledge this. However healing a relationship isn't instant. This may be a first step, but your hurt feelings don't disappear instantly.  He may also not be able to instantly change himself. There will be mistakes and stumbles along the way, but if he's sincere and wants things to be better- and buying the ring is a way of showing you that, then the two of you can work on making things better.

[snowglobe]

Dear AskingWhy,
As I read your heartfelt post I kept on nodding my head, almost as I have written it myself. I draw on parallels of your relationships with your husband and my relationships with uBPDh. There are too many things to list and too many hurts to remember. Like a piggy bank that runneth over with his transgressions and outbursts, so does your patience and commitment to the relationships. You feel ambiguous regarding your feelings towards your husband. It’s expected given the treatment you have endured from him and his family. Is this a new chapter, or did you simply arrive to the point where you are strong enough to understand that even if he chose to leave (questionable, if he really wanted to, wouldn’t he be gone by now?) you could endure and survive. When you experience this emotional turmoil on a regular basis, you, or anyone grows accustomed to it and unfortunately anticipates it. I can tell for myself, when uBPDh becomes too close, or better yet, if I dare to disagree, I immediately wait for “we are different people, I have nothing to say to you, I’m not sexually attracted to you, we are two different people and I think we should divorce” bam, his shpeel for every disagreement. Afterwards when I get to the point of walking away and disengagement he starts making active attempts to rectify the situation. Buying lavish gifts, taking the entire family out, making remarks of “how sexy mommy looks” and so on. Like Wendy said, push and pull, demand and withdrawal. Asking why, I sincerely believe that your presence in your husband’s life is a stabilizing anchor to his well being and reality. With your help, at least temporarily he can achieve some semblance of normality. If you ever walked away, in my opinion, he would be devastated and you would probably feel better after a while. In conclusion you would both survive and the world would keep on turning. Albeit, he would not learn his lesson, analyze or make the conclusions. You would become another ex b$tch who screwed him over. He would tell stories of his generosity (hence your new jewelry) and some other poor soul would think of you as the ultimate anti hero. Where would it leave you? Would you start replicate the same pattern with another person? We tend to, after all, we seek out people who match us in our dysfunctions. What do you do with your newfound revelation and strength? Stay in the moment Dear, he is still with you, means you still have an opportunity to learn from these relationships, about yourself even. 

[Cat Familiar]

I love him, but I may not be IN love with him as a woman loves her spouse.  It's like I am looking at my own H as an outsider and an analyst.  I see his pettiness and irritation, and I no longer care if he divorces me.

You are looking at him through clear eyes and you have compassion for why he is the way he is, but you're not certain about whether or not you want to be in this relationship.

It's almost as if the old you has died and now the new you is saying, "What the heck? How did I get here?"

It's freeing to let go of those old feelings and patterns, but what do you replace them with?

[Red5]

Hello AskyingWhy

In my short fifty three years and two marriages on planet earth I’ve learned...

That human emotions (relationships), verses the changing of the seasons... ie’ compared to the earths weather patterns are very similar    ... think a persons needs in a relationship...and the timing of that compared to the ending and beginning of the ice ages... or in the middle of winter longing for the spring to turn into summer.

Perhaps a silly anology... but when we are “waiting” on our partner to love us...for lack of a better word...as we would like them to, long for them to... seems like it can be ages (one ice age to the next)... so we wait, we hurt, we may even come to the point of giving up... like a French Legionaire crawling over one sand dune after another looking for that oasis on his parched and dried up map...

Meanwhile the earth continues to turn on its axis... it gets colder, then a little warmer, then spring comes, and things finally begin to bloom, and show a little growth... and then summer comes... we are warm again... then after sometime the fall comes, although beautiful... we know another hard winter is upon us... and once again we will have to wait it out until the spring may come again... we know the signs... the patterns... in our relationships... just like we know the weather...

It’s the waiting... the wondering... the endless hours... days... months that may turn into years and even decades of waiting... waiting on the other person we are betrothed to... to respond to our need for love... affection... adoration... we wait on their affirmation of the love we so long for them to show to us.

I’ve spent a lot of time also... waiting on my wives (plural) to return that “love note in a bottle”... that bottle seems to drift for eons of time... across the vast oceans... driven along by the currents and tides... and storms of the marriage relationship...

But one day... as I metaphorically crawl over that last sand  dune... at the end of my physical and emotionaly endurance and ready to “give up the ghost”...  what do I see... I see and endless Beach before me... finally!...and there in the welcoming  surf... what is that?... what do I see rolling in the sea foam and sea shells... it’s an old corked bottle covered in barnacles  and sea weed... and it looks like it has a note on it !

Hang in there AW... as they endlessly say over on the ‘bettering board”... play the long game... it’s not a race... but a marathon... and to many of us here, a lifelong marathon in which we “note”  the endless  changing of the seasons... from one winter to the next.

Stay strong... resolute... and know that you are a beautiful person.

Red5

[Copycat2018]

Hello,

Interesting post and some nice responses.
So how does a person like us ( the ones who hook up with u BPDs that match our own dysfunction) manage our expectations? And how do we find, for any amount  of time, fulfillment?
Or are we , in our dysfunction, waiting for something and expecting something that is unrealistic? That should not be expected? Such as the other one matching our desires, feeling and reciprocating them?

[AskingWhy]

Thank you all for the replies.

After two months where uBPH seemed to want to be "normal" and repentant of his abnormal, hurtful past behaviour, H dysregulated this evening.

He had just come back from seeing one of his adult children (he is enmeshed with his adult children) and grandchildren, and was probably in a state of euphoria.  As a guest, he was plied with attention and gushing compliments (H was paying for all the meals, entertainment and groceries, of course, and showering the children with toys.)  Then it's all a let down to have to come home to me, the wife he despises and blames for his unhappiness.

The tension building stage was going on for a few days after his return (my health was suffering and I was not doing much housework), and I was making dinner and evidently was not doing it fast enough for H.  

H is a control freak and "stages" things for me under the guise of "helping."  If I need to wash the windows, he goes to the closet and stages the cleaning things for me under a window.  If I need to vacuum the carpets, he'll take out the vacuum and leave out in the open.  These "hints" of "help" are like a stiletto held to one's back.

This evening, I was making dinner and H was "staging" the food ingredients on the kitchen counter for me to "help."  In the helping, H was putting food away that I had already taken out for use, and I found myself taking them out again.  Livid, I dashed an old bunch of carrots into the trash can.

H responded with slamming the refrigerator door shut, dislodging the inner shelves.  On his immediately opening the door, several broken shelves and glass soda bottles fell to the tile floor, including other drink items and condiments, shattering and sending glass and soda all over the kitchen floor, and inside the refrigerator and contents.

Rather than break down and cry as I once would have done, begging H to forgive me for angering him, I broke into a hearty, mocking laugh.  I said, "Don't try to blame what you did on me.  I don't have that much control over you.  If I did, I would have had you buy me that diamond ring ten years ago!"

The pets were terrified and had scattered into the house.  The dogs were on their beds, and the cats were under the furniture.  I made sure they were out of danger from the wet floor and broken glass.

I allowed H to clean up the mess all by himself.  He had to mop the mess and all the shards of glass, then dry and sweep the floor by himself.  All the while, he inferred divorce threats, cursed are me in the vulgarest terms, of course, to which I laughed and told him to have me served, as he was hinting that one day he'll be gone.  (H has made these threats whenever he dysregualtes, and has done so for at least the last 15 years of our 20 year marriage.)

He then slept on the couch for the night and not in our bed or bedroom.  This is his way of punishing me by withholding affection, an abusive tactic.

I did not care, and went about my business.

I am getting to the point where I do not fear divorce.  As I said earlier, I am like a person on the outside looking in, and analyzing H like an observer and not an active participant in the drama.

As Red says, we nons are always "waiting" for our partners to become sane and love us in the manner we deserve.  

pwBPD experience unpleasant memories and emotions as if they are happening in the present.  At that moment in time when I angrily threw the carrots, H experienced the pain and rage of being raised by a uNPD F who emotionally abused his enabling M, cheated on by his uNPD X W, sassed and disrespected by his children as teens and young adults.  All of that pain and rage were focused like white heat at me, at whom H was angry at that moment.

I refused to be his emotional punching bag.  I am already dealing with depression and was not about to be used as a punching bag for my H's dysfunctional childhood and unhappy life experiences.

[AskingWhy]

According to Beverly Engel in her book, "The Jekyll and Hyde Syndrome," pwBPD sufffer from debilitating forms of low self esteem.  I know my own Hs FOO was a mess, and his marriage to his uNPD X W was a disaster as he accepted her many love affairs and eventually leaving him; his children were overvalued by him and they developed a sense of entitlement and abused him, often demanding money and expensive gifts.

I know this is sad and I know H feels miserable, but when my uBPD H dyregulates and damages or breaks things, withholding affection and making inferences to his divorcing me, all bets are off for me.  My empathy stops, and I hold my boundaries.

[Notwendy]

I think it is great that you no longer fear his outbursts or threats. It's a great goal to not react in fear. However, another goal is to not escalate the drama by participating in it. We should not be doormats and give in to keep the peace, but "giving it back" is participating in drama.

"Kitchen sinking"- bringing issues from the past into a current argument is one way to add to drama. Bringing up the ring issue ( past) into the current ( he made a mess and had a meldown) is one example of that.

Laughing when he was threatening divorce was also adding to the anger.

I get that you are very angry at him and his behavior isn't what you feel is conducive to a good relationship. Yet, when we get into these meltdown situations, our goal is to stay composed in the storm. It's not easy to do. Not reacting in fear is a first step and good for you for not doing that. Then, we have to look at our own anger and how we respond- is this helpful to the situation and to us, or not?

It takes practice. I'm not getting at you- I do this too so I am sharing what I have to work on. My H has been trying to make changes and while I am grateful for that, I realize I am also angry at how he treated me, and realize that I allowed him to do that by being a doormat. I understand the impulse to react with anger but that keeps us on the drama triangle as either victim or persecutor. Both roles are dysfunctional.

He's trying but he's also going to make mistakes too. ( and we do too!) People don't change overnight. If you want more of the "trying" then we have to reinforce that. So, he messed up and had a meltdown. I think it is good that you let him clean up the mess ( that's natural consequences). At this point he probably felt some shame and then started to mouth off about divorce and say mean things. Not reacting at this point, just allowing him to get himself together may have helped cool down the situation.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm wondering whether your depression might be linked to feeling that he will never change and you'll always be a spectator to his adoration of his children, while you feel he treats you with disrespect.

That thought would be depressing to anyone.

If you're not worried that he could divorce you, why not try some new behavioral strategies?

For example, when he puts out the cleaning supplies, you can say, "I'm glad that you're offering help with cleaning the windows. I'm not feeling at my best today and I really appreciate you assisting me."

If you act cheery and ignore any BPDisms, you might actually see some behavioral change on his part. He now cleans up the messes he's made, so you've definitely made some progress.

I know it's hard to believe that they can actually change their patterns, but now my husband and I cook dinner together. That was a big bone of contention for me. He'd ask, "What are we doing later?" That was his code for "What are you making for dinner tonight?"

Lots of times I'd have been outside working all day, doing household repairs or gardening, while he sat inside watching TV. It would infuriate me because my idea of an easy meal (rice and veggies or a veggie burger) wasn't considered "food" by him.

But now we cook together and lots of times he even does it all himself if I'm busy taking care of the animals or doing some maintenance project. I would never have believed it possible.

So, I'm challenging you, AskingWhy. Perhaps there's room for improvement in your relationship and maybe you can set aside some of the anger you feel toward him, justified though it may be. Feeling that way is not making your life better.

Why not try an experiment and see if you can make your home life happier? The dogs and cats will benefit. And who knows, it may work. You did get that ring you wanted. Miracles can happen.

[AskingWhy]

Thank you again for the replies.

I know the anger was not the best response, but as many of us here feel, at some point, we no longer care.

I do acknowledge that a good deal of my depression is that I will never be the most cherished person in my H's life.  His children are more important to him.  Remarriages are often doomed to failure due to this, as two-thirds of remarriages where there are children fail and end in divorce.  Those are the stark facts.  I know why he is crazy about his children:  when his uNPD X W left him to marry her lover (who was also married and with children), she took the children across the country because the divorce was uncontested--H was too terrified to hire an attorney to defend his rights.  X W dangled the children in front of H, jerked him around on visitation, and demanded more and more child support.  She put not a dime toward college funds for the children, but spent it on extravagances for her and her new husband.  The children were raised by their mother, but she kicked each one out of the house as they turned eighteen.

In the meantime, his adult children continue to display their uBPD and uNPD tendencies.  His son is nearly homeless and on drugs and alcohol (H is always there to bail him out), one D engages in her volatile behaviour with her boyfriends, the other D emotionally abuses her H and their children.  What a mess.

I know I should not have said anything inflammatory, but at that point in time, I did not care.

As with Frankee, I was thinking of my H, "you psychotic a$$hole."  

[once removed]

I do acknowledge that a good deal of my depression is that I will never be the most cherished person in my H's life.

if this is the goal, is what you describe the best way to obtain it, or help to create an environment where love, nurturing, cherishing, could possibly exist?

[AskingWhy]

if this is the goal, is what you describe the best way to obtain it, or help to create an environment where love, nurturing, cherishing, could possibly exist?

As pwBPD are "black and white," "all or none" thinkers, this is impossible.  When H is thinking fond thoughts of his adult children, he gets this dreamy, smitten look on his face and, split seconds later, is screaming at me, ordering me to clean the house, and making divorce threats.

H splits his children white and me black.  Even thought all of the adult children are out of the house, H's thoughts are often with them.  H texts one of his daughters (a wife with small children) several times a day, and speaks of her at least once a day.  She lives on the other side of the state.

[once removed]

Even thought all of the adult children are out of the house, H's thoughts are often with them.  H texts one of his daughters (a wife with small children) several times a day, and speaks of her at least once a day.  She lives on the other side of the state.

are you saying its possible for his children, but impossible for you?

H splits his children white and me black.

why do you think that is?

[Notwendy]

Asking Why- let me propose another explanation. It isn't you vs the children. BPD affects the most intimate relationships the most. I have seen where a pwBPD is quite charming in public, and the worst behavior is with the spouse and or immediate family members. Ironically, this relationship is also the most secure attachment. The pwBPD then projects or enacts their fears with this relationship because it is the most secure.

While it is tempting to be jealous of how others are treated, they are generally seeing the persona, the mask. Everyone wants love and approval to some extent. The problem with having an outer "mask" is that a person can't feel love or approval for who they really are when they think they have to put on a front to get it. What your H wants is to be loved for himself, including the monster he can act like. So long as you are seeking the mask too, he's not going to feel love and neither will you- because the mask isn't really who he is. I think you have realized that a ring, as nice as it is, still leaves the dynamics to work on.

By connecting your relationship with H to his relationship with his children, you are facing a losing battle. It also may be a false assumption. He loves his children, most parents do and he wants his children to love him. I agree that his enmeshment with them isn't desirable, but his attachment to his kids is how parents feel. It's not the same kind of relationship that he has with you.

I know you have a lot of anger over this, and it is understandable, but his children are significant to him no matter what. I think if you could focus on the dynamics between the two of you ,and not a triangle with the children, it may be more helpful to you.

[Enabler]

why do you think that is?

This question keeps popping into my head as well.

What is it about the relationship with his kids that makes him want to be enmeshed with them, buy them gifts, treat them to dinner, buy their groceries, pay their rent. In my experience of pwN/BPD their rarely act out of guilt (Blame shifting, projection and generally getting rid of bad feelings YES YES YES, but rarely out of shame and guilt of their own actions). For him to be doing these things because he had bad feelings he would have to hold some sense of responsibility for his transgressions during the first marriage (I think). He gets some good feeling from this... he's gets some positive feedback from it...

What do they do for him that you're not doing for him that encourages him to treat them well?

My W treats her friends exceptionally well because they validate her (even validate the invalid), they make her feel like a whole complete person, they tell her that she is amazing (even when they don't know the entirety of her behaviour). There's a lot I can learn from this... and have... hence why I now validate heavily the valid and DON'T INVALIDATE.

Speaking for myself (but think I'm talking generally), I'm like a dog, I'm simple, I do something and if I get a positive reward I repeat it. The bigger the reward the more I repeat it. If I do something bad and get a negative response I'm less likely to do it in future.

Re the fridge, you saying nothing and allowing him to clean it up = negative response. Because you said something it was a get out of jail free card for him as for him it was no longer about the fridge, it was about the fact that you bought up the ring that he'd actually bought you. The old saying of "if you can't say anything constructive, don't say anything at all"... your silence is deafening and doesn't let him off the hook.

Re the cleaning stuff, Cat's point were great, although I'd be tempted to walk round it and leave it there indefinitely. If questioned I would calmly say "I wasn't planning on doing the windows quite yet, if you want to do them then that would be super helpful, else could you put it away. Thanks." <chippy manner>

Enabler

[Red5]

...about four months into my second marriage to uBPDw, she began to actually go after my two younger ones, you see we were a 'blended family'… she even gave me a book to read before we got married about the plight of a step mother in a blended family, she used to say to me, "we have to be on an even front"… her two children were grown and gone, just after her first marriage had ended in divorce... at this time (fast forward 2004-2011), we had met in 2007, dated for almost four years, and then married (2011), I’d just gotten divorced in 2006, and became a single father (long story).

Continuing… so me and "Q" got married, and she moved in with me, and rented out her former home, I retired from the Marine Corps and started working a part time job, she had a high profile career with the college, she is an accountant… at this time mark; my autistic son was about 25, and my two others, were at that time; S21, and D19… so you can imagine the dynamics in our household… what was I thinking!

I had zero inkling about anything BPD-npd-hpd… zero : (

The day after we returned from the honeymoon, she went right to 'asserting' her new authority as the queen (hermit/queen) of the castle.

“Queen Mode”… rigid, talionic, controlling… NOT the woman I thought I was marrying : (

It got very bad very quickly… she seemed to want my two younger ones OUT of the house… so she set about this with the vigor of General Eisenhower planning the D-Day invasion… this of course drew my "ire"… both were working, and D19 (2011) was going to community college…

“Q” would not stop, she would dysregulate when I ‘cautioned’ her… and go right after my children… I called a ‘mayday’… and she said she was done, and wanted to move “back to ___ street”… so I obliged her, and rented a truck… and boom!… after only FOUR months married, we were separated.

So this went on for about six months, we went to marriage counseling (MC)… three times… And you know what the books all say, NEVER go to counseling with a BPD/npd… they will just ‘take over’, and fillet you in the counselors office… this is exactly what happened… NOTHING that really happened was discussed, or validated… it was all her in victim mode… I was the ‘bad guy’…

In the second session, the MC tells us that she too married into a blended family, and this is what she said… “I quickly learned that I was not the foo mum, but the step mum, and as the children were about as old as yours (Red5’s) are now, the cast was set, and I also learned not to ever step in between their father, and them in any way, ie’ discipline… perhaps if they were younger, say pre-kindergartener, or elementary school age, maybe different… but full grown teenagers, and a special needs to boot, as in your situation… no, she went on to tell both uBPDw and myself, that her best modality was to be their friend, NOT their mother… and she said that’s how she worked things out in her home, with her husband… she did say she would talk to him “off to the side” about things that may directly effect their, $$, logistics… or either foo etc’… but she said that those were his children, not hers by blood, and to never try to mix that… those two elements together… “I’m their step mother, not their mother” she said…

After the third session, uBPDw declared that I (Red5) was “fixed”… and we set about moving back in together…

And then began the slow burn… both S21, and D19 moved out on their own the next year, uBPDw took “credit” for this… and once they were out of the house, she set her sights on S32(a)… that was eight years ago now… she has gone through two career jobs (BPD), cycled and recycled both me, and her foo countless times… and now she has stage iv cancer, does not work, and is on disability… and we are separate yet again, star date 190601 was six months we’ve been separated…

I guess I said all that bilge to say this AskingWhy… I never forgot what that MC said eight years ago now…  “those were his children by blood, never try to mix that… those two elements together”… “I’m their step mother, not their mother”.

As far as uBPDw’s two children D33, S31… the daughter has been married three times… but she seems to be doing good at this time… and her S31 got married two years ago… he waited… both have validated what I think I know about their mum (BPD)… D33’s exact words… “welcome to my /F/’ing childhood”… and the S31’s new wife, has already felt the BPD’ treatment from her new MIL (uBPDw)…

Click on my profile, and read all my ancient and endless posts about all of this : (

Yes, AW… blended families are tough… and when you mix in the dynamics of the destruction of the previous marriages… that adds even more “salt to the stew”… as in my own case, my former wife  abandoned us… a long story… she just split… and left me, the kids, the dog, the cat… everything… she just left… and we didn’t hear anything form her for two years… it’s a miracle my children are not so harmed… they all seem to be just fine… my two younger ones are completely independent  … have their own homes, jobs, and bank accounts… and my S32a is ok… even after what happened between him and uBPDw the week before she moved out…

I’ll leave you with this AW… what Notwendy and Enabler wrote rings to me…  “masks”, “enmeshment”… that “blood thing” again… also… (quoting Enabler)My W treats her friends exceptionally well because they validate her (even validate the invalid), they make her feel like a whole complete person, they tell her that she is amazing (even when they don't know the entirety of her behaviour). ...

I still have a relationship with uBPDw’s D33, and S31… they both know I love their mother very much… D33 has told me many times… “Red5, you are the most easy going person I’ve ever met, neither me or “J” (S31) know how you have put up with mom for as long as you have”…

Wow ; (

If I have one tattered piece of advice AskyWhy… it’s this… I too got to the point of just giving up, I’d had enough, and what my uBPDw did to my S32a, even AFTER eight years of “combat experience”… you’d think that we had leant a thing or two… but no, she whacked him, physical violence, and that was it… she got mad, I got even more angry, .. we said a bunch of hurtful things… and I threatened, and she left… I went through several levels of grief, coping… blah blah blah… but here it is, the “rub”… at the end of the day, I do still love her… I feel deeply responsible, and protective of her even still today… she is gone, and I miss her ; (

Take that for what its worth I guess… you hang in there AW!… we all love you and care about you .. and you keep right on posting ok !

Red5

[AskingWhy]

This question keeps popping into my head as well.

What do they do for him that you're not doing for him that encourages him to treat them well?

Enabler

This comment appears to be blaming the victim.   "It's your fault your uBPD H pays more attention to his children."

How would this sound?  "You uBPD H punched a hole in the wall inches from your face.  What did you do or say that caused him to do this?"

It's a common fact that people with children who are remarried have a 66% divorce rate--much higher than even the general population.  Children, unlike spouses, validate their parents in an uncritical way.  In many cases, this is to garner gifts and attention, or even to deliberately cause discord between the parents.  Make no mistake--even young children can do this and thereby get themselves to be valued more by even the other parent.   The end result is divorce.

Spouses, who live day to day with their partners, experience the good and the bad of the R/S:  paying bills, house cleaning, going to work, caring for elderly parents, etc.  With children, the parent (especially in a non custodial situation) wants to see only the good things in children.  As a result, parenting (which includes disciplining) does not occur.  Please research the term "Disney dad" for more on this.

By your comment, I am led to conclude you are not a stepparent.

Are you inferring that I am somehow to blame for my uBPD H's channeling his attention away from me and to his adult children?

Please clarify this?

[AskingWhy]

If I have one tattered piece of advice AskyWhy … it’s this … I too got to the point of just giving up, I’d had enough, and what my uBPDw did to my S32a, even AFTER eight years of “combat experience” … you’d think that we had leant a thing or two … but no, … she whacked him, physical violence, … and that was it … she got mad, I got even more angry, .. we said a bunch of hurtful things … and I threatened, and she left … I

Take that for what its worth I guess … you hang in there AW! … we all love you and care about you .. and you keep right on posting ok !

Red5

Thank you for this, Red.  And for understanding the dynamics of blended families!  

Yes, physical violence is a deal breaker.  Your uBPD W was totally out of line. And you were right to defend your S.

On the other hand, one of my H's adult children made a threat to physically harm me.  My H said and did nothing.  I was able to put that child in his place with a well placed comment.  My H failed to defend me by parenting his abusive S, so I had to be my own champion.  I lost a lot of respect for my H after that.  By the way, I know as a fact that H's uNPD X W actually slapped her own D in the face at least once.  

All of uBPD H's children are in the NPD and BPD spectrum.  Too much to discuss in this thread.

As you know, pwBPD don't act in rational ways, nor are they bound to see "reality."

Blended families are tough enough without adding BPD into the mix.

Thank you again, Red.  

[once removed]

Are you inferring that I am somehow to blame for my uBPD H's channeling his attention away from me and to his adult children?

these are hard questions, i know. please understand we are trying to break through, and to help.

if you gave someone a ring, and they responded with mocking and ridiculing you, what sort of attention would you give that person? the common response is to withdraw, or worse.

is there some cause and effect here, that isnt necessarily about blame or who is right or wrong, but a much bigger picture of constant conflict between you and your husband?

his relationship with his children sounds like a loving one. you have expressed many times that you see this as a threat to his love and attention to you. certainly, it can be. what im not sure you are seeing is that your approach pits you against his children, and against your husband...it does not bring you and your husband closer together. it alienates you.

isnt that contrary to your goal?

[AskingWhy]

these are hard questions, i know. please understand we are trying to break through, and to help.

his relationship with his children sounds like a loving one.

Thank you for the reply.

Having a loving R/S with one's adult children is one thing.  Being enmeshed is something different altogether.

My uBPD H is enmeshed. 

pwBPD have boundary issues.  Splitting/dissociating is a feature of BPD.  When H is with his adult children (or his male friends), he splits/dissociates.  I cease to exist for him. 

I think this is easy to understand.  Even my own family has observed this when he is with his children or drinking with his male friends.

[once removed]

I cease to exist for him. 

except when the two of you are fighting.

when a relationship is breaking down, both parties withdraw, and they invest in relationships that are validating and rewarding. could that explain what hes doing?

[Enabler]

This comment appears to be blaming the victim.   "It's your fault your uBPD H pays more attention to his children."

...

Spouses, who live day to day with their partners, experience the good and the bad of the R/S:  paying bills, house cleaning, going to work, caring for elderly parents, etc.  With children, the parent (especially in a non custodial situation) wants to see only the good things in children.  As a result, parenting (which includes disciplining) does not occur.  Please research the term "Disney dad" for more on this.

I’m not sure what part of what I said was directing fault or blame. I identified why my W treats her friends and others exceptionally well, validation, and that was something I had identified about myself that was lacking, or present in the form of invalidation.

However I believe that you have inadvertently answered my question. You are at the coal face with your husband and you do have these stresses. Your H and step kids interactions have little in the way of meaningful consequences. If the kids pay dad on the back and say “you’re an awesome bloke”, really what’s their downside? In the same way that my Ws friends bare no consequences for their cheerleading, what’s the worst that can happen to them? Nada. Dad buys gifts for them, they say he’s awesome, who loses out of he goes broke? Them? No... you do.

However because you bare the consequences you speak out, he’s sensitive to this. He gets bad feelings from your comments and behaviours. You don’t feel inclined to cheerlead him, that generates more bad feeling spiral spiral spiral... blame, fault... it’s irrelevant. He’s not going to change the dynamic, as you say he suffers from a personality disorder... but you can change the dynamic by either leaving or by changing your behaviour. Either way, it’ has to start with you.

I would be looking at what gets your Hs positive juices flowing... and that may well be something that is TOTALLY counter cyclical to the way you feel like behaving given his behaviour. It may be something as simple as the fact that his kids show excessive gratitude.

Enabler

[AskingWhy]

when a relationship is breaking down, both parties withdraw, and they invest in relationships that are validating and rewarding. could that explain what hes doing?

uBPD H was enmeshed with his children before we married.  They were all under 5 and I had not met them until the wedding.  Typical BPD/codependent courtship:  love bombing, quick relationship, marriage.  By the time I actually saw the children, it was too late.  When uNPD X W dropped them off, all of a sudden, I ceased to exist for H.  It's like he looked right through me.  Looking back, had I seen how I disappeared in the presence of his children, I would never have married him.

[AskingWhy]

I would be looking at what gets your Hs positive juices flowing... and that may well be something that is TOTALLY counter cyclical to the way you feel like behaving given his behaviour. It may be something as simple as the fact that his kids show excessive gratitude.

Enabler

Accepting poor treatment from a spouse would be, well, enabling.  I prefer to stand by my boundaries.

Letting my H continue to treat me poorly while overlooking the poor behaviour of his children (they emotionally blackmail him to get money and gifts) would be a reflection of poor self esteem.  I will be frank:  H's children butter him up in order to get things.  When he comes through, they gush with thanks; when he does not, he is blackmailed, and the don't return his phone calls and do not visit, and don't bring the grand children around.

I should not have to vie for my own H's attention and favor.  If H chooses to put me behind his children, then let him deal with the consequences of those actions.  

You did not say yea or nay if you had children or stepchildren as this surely colours your responses. 

Covert incest has already been discussed on this site.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/was-part-your-childhood-deprived-emotional-incest

[once removed]

https://bpdfamily.com/content/was-part-your-childhood-deprived-emotional-incest

the article refers to a relationship between parents and young children, and an unhealthy emotional dependence an adult has on a young child to manage his or her emotional affairs.

the article also describes what happens to the family when this occurs:

This typically occurs when a the marriage unravels
...
The Invasive Parent is enmeshed with a child in order to meet his/her needs that are not being met in an adult relationship
...
The Left-Out Spouse spouse of invasive parent, is often shut out of exclusive parent-child bond; may turn to workaholism, alcohol, affairs, or other unhealthy coping mechanisms to deal with an unhappy life at home

setting aside emotional incest, it is obvious that your husband is looking to other close relationships to meet his needs. it is an approach that is destructive to a relationship. on the other hand, your approach to getting his attention, or his love, is counter productive, and destructive to a relationship.

both are understandable. both are damaging.

honest question:

would you prefer to vent about your circumstances and receive validation for your side of the conflict, or do you want to save your marriage?

are you more comfortable judging your husband and his relationship with his children than examining your role in your circumstances, and what you can do to improve them?

if so, ok. its good to be clear on your goals and how we can best support you.

[AskingWhy]

once removed, covert incest does not always involve young children. 

Such unhealthy enmeshment extends into the children's adulthood--when they are adults and even married with families.  It's a common phenomenon where the lines between parent and children are blurred.  One has only to search the Web where step parents are forced to contend with the intrusive R/S of their spouse's adult children.  The adult child (usually but not always) the opposite gender of the spouse takes on the role of surrogate spouse.  It is very unhealthy and is a common cause of divorce for many. Both husbands and wives stand guilty of putting their children above that of the spouse.  And it's not only step children. If tabloids are to be believed, at least one actress clearly put her children ahead of her spouse.  It's no mystery the couple separated shortly after marriage.

My marriage is being disrespected and I am being emotionally abused.  If, say, my uBPD H gave me a black eye, would you say, "How did you bring this on yourself, and how can you make it better?  You know your H has BPD, so you need to learn to engage in healthier ways."

What can I do to improve my R/S with my H?  I disengage.  If my H wants to intrude into the R/S of his children and their partners, then let him.  More than one young man has been frightened off after seeing H and his D engage in a tickling match that was more than uncomfortable with spectators.

Covert/emotional incest does not stop when a child becomes an adult.

As many of us here, the next step is finding a was out of the marriage or R/S.  You are no longer able to SET an either disengage (leave emotionally) or leave the R/S, as in a divorce.

[Notwendy]

Asking Why- your feelings are certainly understandable. I think it is important for you to do what is going to be the best steps for you, but One Removed asked important questions here:

Would you prefer to vent about your circumstances and receive validation for your side of the conflict, or do you want to save your marriage?

are you more comfortable judging your husband and his relationship with his children than examining your role in your circumstances, and what you can do to improve them?

if so, ok. its good to be clear on your goals and how we can best support you.

I think it would help us to understand what direction you wish to take.


I'll propose another question- even if you don't want to save your marriage and you want to divorce your H, are you interested in looking at your role in the dysfunction and tendencies for the sake of your own personal growth and to prevent entering another relationship with similar circumstances?

When I was reading about marriages and issues in marriage, I came across some interesting points- one is that we tend to choose people who match our own emotional/relationship skills and that, if we leave a relationship and don't examine our own role in the issues - we risk recreating a similar pattern with another partner.

I wasn't sure what would happen in my marriage when I started doing this kind of work on myself ( and it's a work in progress) but the idea of going through a break up and possibly recreating the situation was a lot of motivation. The other one was that any relationship skills I gained by doing this work- were mine to help with any relationship- with bosses, co workers, friends, relatives. Like the Little Red Hen- if I did the work, I got to keep the results. I was not about my H , or anyone else, it was about becoming a better me.

However to do this, I had to be willing to look at myself as the only thing I could really change. I can understand your feeling that Enabler was "blaming the victim" but the way I saw it was him asking you to observe the reinforcing behaviors for your H. I know you are angry and don't deserve to be treated poorly. However, since we can only change our own behaviors, not someone else's- looking at ours is often more productive than looking at theirs.

But it is up to you. If you want to vent here and feel supported, that's OK, but also know that posters will try to help by pointing out behaviors, as I feel it is beneficial too.

[Enabler]

You did not say yea or nay if you had children or stepchildren as this surely colours your responses. 

Sorry, I missed that question. I have 3 girls 10/9/6, and I am their natural father. I have an extremely close bond with my children now, a dynamic which I have flipped on it's head in the last 3 years due to my marital issues and expectation that I would be "off the pitch" for all but every other weekend post a probable divorce. I believe that I am an exceptionally good father and probably more emotionally in-tune to them than many of my male peers are with their children... and that's because I've worked extremely hard in preparation of them being away from me. In short I knew that I needed to have a cast iron differentiated relationship with them to defend against parental alienation. As part of this 'ultimate parent' aspiration I have had to completely change the way that I discipline and communicate with my children. I model authoritative parenting. I do not have a problem with boundaries with my children and they are perfectly aware of what is and isn't okay with me, I consistently ensure that they take responsibility for themselves where age appropriate and endeavour to equip them with life skills that will enable them to be self sufficient, responsible and resourceful. They live in the knowledge that I am here for them should they NEED me, but that I expect them to help themselves where possible. This could be as simple as putting their own plate in the dishwasher or packing their own clothes for a holiday, or saving up for a new ipad or paying for a new screen because they trod on it after leaving it on the floor (I actually put the money back in their money box without them knowing after they paid for it)... they know that I am a kind, fair, loving and CONSISTENT father and I am different to their mother.

From what I have experienced from pwBPD is that they cannot offer a consistency in parenting. Parenting is emotionally involving, many of my children's moans and groans, or even rages, are personal attacks... it's stressful. pwBPD cannot deal with conflict very well as we know, it's an emotional extreme, they therefore attempt to avoid negative emotional extremes. I have found that it leads to an inability to be an authoritative parent and tends to mean they flip between Passive parenting (no boundaries, fun M/D, anything goes, you do what you like I'll be in the other room) to Authoritarian parenting (rant, shouting, blaming, rules, you can't, you will, you're not watching TV for a year, you're not). There's a bit of black and white here but ultimately it comes back to stress tolerance... "I will ignore you and allow you to do your own thing as much as possible, by keeping my distance and leaving you to it I don't have to deal with the stress of dealing with you, however, when eventually you (child) becomes too disorderly and inevitably breach my very very wide boundary (as they will because children search for boundaries) I will throw a fit and attempt to gain control in a disordered manner." They cannot do either parenting styles effectively because both ends of the spectrum involve stress... passive involves the parents stress of allowing their kids to do whatever and not be concerned, authoritarian requires conflict to keep children in a tightly contained path and thus stress.

Letting my H continue to treat me poorly while overlooking the poor behaviour of his children (they emotionally blackmail him to get money and gifts) would be a reflection of poor self esteem.  I will be frank:  H's children butter him up in order to get things.  When he comes through, they gush with thanks; when he does not, he is blackmailed, and the don't return his phone calls and do not visit, and don't bring the grand children around.

I don't know what your H used to be like as a parent when his kids were young... but I'm guessing now, authoritarian parenting doesn't work so well as an absent father (when he had irregular access to kids) or with adult children... adult children will just disown him. So, since he can't do the authoritative parenting bit (because of BPD) he opts for passive parenting where his kids take advantage of him. BUT... as you mentioned, he gets something from this, he gets huge amounts of gratitude... or ignored when he doesn't perform. Given what you know about him and BPD, you could have sympathy for him here. His own deficiencies lead him to being manipulated by his kids.

I should not have to vie for my own H's attention and favor.  If H chooses to put me behind his children, then let him deal with the consequences of those actions.  

I agree that in a healthy relationship neither individual should have to vie for attention and favour from their spouse, it should come naturally. A healthy couple should both be happy with themselves and not need to constantly look to reassure themselves of their personal 'okayness', or look to others to meet their needs and instead look outwards to each other to enhance the others life and happiness and improve their flourishing. Somewhat like economies of scale... I can meet all my needs but in a partnership I can meet them in excess and more efficiently. That said, there is a dance in a symbiotic relationship of a couple partnership, each individual has to play their part and attract the other to stay relevant in the symbiotic relationship... so no, I disagree with you, you do have to vie for his attention, in much the same way that he should vie for your attention, else you or he becomes irrelevant in the symbiotic relationship and the relationship is either seen as parasitic by one or the other.

The question I am proposing is, why does your H see you as a parasitic relationship rather than his children (whom appear to be parasites) whom he seems to regard at symbiotic?

Accepting poor treatment from a spouse would be, well, enabling.  I prefer to stand by my boundaries.

I don't see anyone here suggesting you should accept poor treatment, nor enable him. Walking away and saying nothing when he slams the fridge door is not enabling him, it is actively ensuring that he is left to deal with the consequences of his own rage by cleaning up his mess (physically AND mentally). If anything, making comments and kitchen sinking arguments such as mentioning the ring IS enabling him, it Enables him to contort the conflict into a situation where he can justify why he slammed the fridge door and why the shelves broke because you are "an ungrateful cow who just throws my gestures back in my face, who's never content and doesn't pull her weight" (his potential words not mine).

You can defend your boundaries as much as you like using your current approach, but, IT WILL result in greater and more extended conflict and IT WILL result in a greater sense of contempt for him (and him for you) and IT WILL result in divorce... and how much comfort will your pride be then?

Boundaries are good, we love boundaries and preach healthy boundaries a lot on  bpdfamily, for good reason. But we also preach healthy and effective ways to defend those boundaries in a safe (physically and to the relationship) manner which minimises conflict and attempts to ensure the each party bares the consequences of their own actions and choices whilst accepting their reality and the reality of living with someone with traits of BPD.  

As Once Removed said, we are all here to support you and better your circumstances. Please let us know how we can effectively do that.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

As I stated before, I think the way your H behaves is more about how BPD affects relationships than the influence of his children. BPD affects the most intimate relationships the most. A marital/romantic relationship is the most intimate.

Next are the close family relationships- with children, parents and siblings. BPD affects these relationships too. Families also behave as a system with each member taking on a dysfunctional role to balance the system out.

My H takes on the "hero/rescuer" role with his family. I could be angry that he is more on his best behavior with them than he is with me. It has hurt my feelings that he would clear his work schedule for them, but if I asked him to do something he wouldn't. He will say "yes" to them right away but argue with me if I ask him to do something at home or bring something up to discuss.

It doesn't seem fair but I get to be the one he plays out his own FOO issues with and after doing some personal work- I also play mine out with him. The way to change the pattern for me is to work on my stuff.

A huge step for me is to not take these behaviors personally. Your H is who he is, and he's dysfunctional with his kids and with you. But you are not going to be able to change how he interacts with his kids. You can work on your part in the relationship.

AW, being depressed makes this hard. I think some self care can go a long way. I know that your marriage is a depressing issue for you. Is there some way you can do more things for you? Go out to lunch with a friend, etc.