“Soo...what? You’re not a mom anymore?”

[Nope]

Yesterday I set a boundary with my DH regarding uBPD/dADHD SS15. Both my DH and SS have taken to using me as a go-between. DH, because he often can’t deal with SS without losing his temper. And SS because sometimes he actually does seem to want to stay out of his Dad’s crosshairs and he wants me to soften DH’s reaction to poor behaviors at school. Though other times he comes to me or texts me to further goad DH into a negative reaction. To top all of this off, even though DH will often tell me to handle disciplining SS however I saw for, he nearly always disagrees with my handling, which prompts arguments. I’m either too tough on SS, not tough enough on him, or the level is right, but the means isn’t satisfactory. I.e. taking away his TV privileges for the weekend instead of letting him have his TV, but taking away his video games that he’s only allowed to play on weekends for a month.

So, no more. I told DH he needs to leave me out of it. Either deal with SS directly, or send him back to live with his BPD mom as he often threatens to do.

DH has PTSD from his marriage to SS’s mom and swore he’d never tolerate being treated like that again. Only to, after a lengthy court battle, end up with a teen son living 100% under his roof who treats him exactly as she did. And also exhibits every single maddening behavior that comes with this disorder.

DH’s response to my boundary is the title of this post. And it stung. I’ve known this kid since he was eight years old and for the past three years I haven’t recognized him. It’s like puberty hit and destroyed almost every good quality he ever had. I’ve done everything for him for the last five years. Making his appointments , coaching soccer, buying him clothes, making sure he was on task at school, etc etc. His mom lives out of state and sees him and his sister for a couple of weeks a couple of times a year. Of course, she talks on the phone with him often, re-enforcing his perceived victimhood.

So... I guess I don’t understand what my responsibility is in all of this. I obviously can’t fix anything. DH is in counseling, but progress where SS is concerned is nonexistent because DH can’t get past the anger enough to see SS15 as his son (and not just an extension of the ex). SS is on his third counselor, but she hasn’t worked with him long enough to know what she’s dealing with. I absolutely know with the help of my own T that I need to set boundaries around this situation. And frankly, I can set boundaries all day long. I am just having a hard time seeing the line between healthy boundaries and just completely disengaging in a way that is unfair. Does that make sense?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[FaithHopeLove]

Hello, Nope
It is good to meet you. It sounds like you are really going through a lot. I also have to be careful about boundaries with my dswBPD. This might sound too simplistic but I think the difference between having boundaries and just disengaging is with boundaries your goal is to improve the relationship whereas disenganing means you have given up - at least for a while. What other boundaries do you have other than the one you just set with your husband?

[Panda39]

Hi Nope,

I just wanted to validate your choice to step off the triangle, take a break and re-assess the situation.  It sounds like there is no united front when it comes to parenting SS15.  You both want the same thing to get SS15 on track but your approaches aren't working and it sounds like both of you are struggling with him and things are bleeding out into the relationship between the two of you.

What kind of behaviors are you seeing from your SS15?  Have you considered working with your husband and a therapist on some parenting strategies together?  A parenting class? (I know this might be basic but it might help realign or focus you both.)

How are things between you and DH as a couple?  I have found sometimes just focusing on my Partner and myself as a couple can help.  Take a break from SS15 strengthen that connection, then communication can be better, and a more united front can occur.

I'm glad you decided to check in.

Hang in there,
Panda39

[livednlearned]

Both my DH and SS have taken to using me as a go-between.

Oof. That's a thankless position to be in.

I told DH he needs to leave me out of it. Either deal with SS directly, or send him back to live with his BPD mom as he often threatens to do.

I bet it wasn't a fun ride getting to this point  

And also exhibits every single maddening behavior that comes with this disorder.

Do you notice if any of the skills you've learned here help, Nope? The blended family dynamic can make things tricky. I let myself get sidelined and had to do what you are doing, setting limits with H.

DH’s response to my boundary is the title of this post. And it stung.

It's also unfair. He is probably scared, and is using guilt to try and get you to stay in your role.
The grief of realizing yet another family member suffers from the same traits can be devastating. Having PTSD may make it harder for him to process this grief in healthy ways.

I don’t understand what my responsibility is in all of this. ...I am just having a hard time seeing the line between healthy boundaries and just completely disengaging in a way that is unfair.

We must be twins  

I have been working through this the past year, too. I had to change my relationship with H and start using the skills I learned here and apply them to him.

Do you want SS15 to go live with his mom?

[Elizabeth22]

Hi Nope,

Nice to meet you.
For what it's worth, I think you did the right thing. I think your husband has to learn to deal with his own child, whether he has PTSD or not. What your husband said to you is very cruel, and especially because it sounds like you are trying so hard and husband is the one not really acting like a parent. Good for you for standing up to it.

E22 oxoxox

[FaithHopeLove]

lived and learned
brings up a very good point. By using communication skills she was able to improve her relationship with her husband. My husband and I also find couple strength is key to surviving and thriving while loving our son. Thanks to therapy and what we are learning here our couple strength is getting better. Have you thought about couple's counselling? Do you think it would help?

[Enabler]

Hey Nope,

As you know, pwBPD tend to be manipulative, or at the very least come across that way. They seem to create chaos. Your SS has grown up in an environment where chaos and manipulation are normal, they're useful well sharpened tools and frankly he's pretty darn good at it now he's a teenager.

As healthy parents I think we all dream of a utopia of parenting or co-parenting as a united front. I don't know about you but I used to hate being told off by my parents, one was ALWAYS on the shoulder of the other reinforcing them, it was like 'daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnng there's no freakin' way I'm getting round this'. pwBPD can't offer that level of parental consistency because it takes emotional strength, distress tolerance and consistent values to stand strong in all weathers. So, this is your son's normal. He knows that if he pushes different parts of the boundary fence it will fall over. He's actively incentivised to test the fence because history has taught him that he will be able to find a weak spot.

In a slightly different scenario where my W has traits of BPD I have accepted that I cannot co-parent with her and I have to differentiate my relationship (including discipline) with my 3 kids and STOP expecting her to reinforce me. This means in a practical sense, I can only dish out punishments which I ALONE can enforce, and it needs no input from my W. It's debilitating and involves a lot of effort, but I have seen results. You appear to be doing this to a certain extent however, your sticking point is that rather than entering a one on one conflict between you and your SS you are entering a triangle where your H attempts to rescue your SS switching you to perpetrator and him to victim (classic Karpman). You have quite wisely given you H the choice that he either effectively co-parents with you, reinforcing your choices OR he stays neutral. Either are acceptable options. Likewise you are either going to co-parent effectively OR stay out completely as this current state of intermittent reinforcement actually PROMOTES boundary testing and bad behaviour not diminishes it.

You and him see T's by the sounds of things, is it possible to have a couple of joint meetings with you H to work through this issue. I am sure that any T worth their salt will be able to explain clearly to your H that intermittent boundary reinforcement is catastrophic for child development and one needs to adopt a policy of neutrality or support in ALL conflict situations. You two could work together such that you decide on a policy and you stick to it.

You may not be his maternal mother, but you are in a trusted guardianship position especially since he lives with you 100% of the time. You are integral to his development into an adult given your level of interaction with him.

How does your H negotiate best? 1 on 1 or with the help of professionals? What approach would be effective? Stick to the most effective route of getting high probability outcomes.

Enabler

[once removed]

I am just having a hard time seeing the line between healthy boundaries and just completely disengaging in a way that is unfair.

in a karpman drama triangle, the person in the middle has the most power, for better, or for worse.

in some way, this dynamic has worked, even if dysfunctionally. unfortunately, complete disengagement can be just as polarizing as over involvement.

According to Bowen, triangles have at least four possible outcomes, two of which are good and two of which are bad:

    a stable pair can become destabilized by a third person;

    a stable pair can also be destabilized by the removal of the third person (an example would be a child leaving home and no longer available for triangulation);

    an unstable pair can be stabilized by the addition of a third person (an example would be a conflictual marriage becoming more harmonious after the birth of a child); and

    an unstable pair being stabilized by the removal of a third person (an example would be conflict is reduced by the removal of a third person who takes sides).

the "trick" is to move to the center. pay close attention to the winners triangle: https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

[Nope]

Hi!

Thank you all for you’re really great responses! To answer a few common questions; yes DH and I have a T. DH has his own T, I have my own T and all three T’s have had a sit down with the two of us. But what came out of that is that we need to work mostly on strengthening our marriage first, and figuring out things with SS15 second. I do think our relationship is doing well, given the extreme stress we are under at every turn with other non-related life stuff. But it’s slow going getting on the same page about SS.

I’ve come to the conclusion that I cannot expect DH to change and I cannot expect SS to change. The only person I can control in this situation is myself. I wish I could say I learned a bunch of skills while dealing with his BM end court drama. But the reality is that what I did was set hard, uncompromising, zero empathy boundaries. From this distance of several states away and with her very limited visitation that was easy to do and enforce. My motto became that if she can’t act right, then she will just be ignored. Much harder to do with a child who is  living under the same roof. Guess that’s what I get for thinking the nightmare was temporary.

Panda,
The stuff we see from him really is the same as with her, except he is a “quiet” borderline, while she is quite loud. But also a lot of co-morbid issues such as anxiety, ADHD, and a breathtaking number and severity of executive functioning issues. (As a matter of fact, we aren’t sure if he’s actually as intentionally malicious as he says he is, or if he’s just saying he does things because we deserve it for making him angry because he’s actually just trying to hide exactly how non-functioning he is.) It’s really hard to say exactly what’s going on except despite how he behaves at home he gets mostly As and Bs in school.

He absolutely refuses to learn anything from any experience. No matter what consequences have happened for a behavior in the past, he WILL do exactly the same thing over and over again. Then get mad at his dad or I when the consequence comes again, even if it is a natural consequence that has nothing to do with us. And also appear greatly confused as to why things “keep happening” to him. As though he is an innocent bystander in the matter.

L&L - Yes, it is really tough having found myself in this situation. I came here more than five years ago looking for help getting custody of SD and SS. Be careful what you wish for, I guess. To answer your question... yes. I want peace in my home. If not for me than for DD2. Frankly, my DH wants the same thing, but is unwilling to pay out the nose in child support to get it. Unfortunately, he is also ridged in his parenting beliefs. Not a problem for SD16 or DD2 because they are typical kids. I suspect if SS was more outwardly atypical DH would cut him more slack. But since he hit puberty he has a glassy, staring, kind of bug eyed yet expressionless face that just makes everyone uncomfortable and unwilling to make eye contact with him for any period of time. (No, he is absolutely not on drugs and only has limited medication for the ADHD and anxiety, as his Psychiatrist said there is nothing she can do about “the rest of it”.) Honestly, it’s really painful because the sweet kid I wanted so badly to help is just gone and completely replaced with someone I don’t know and am unsure I want to.

Enabler, I wish I knew how to get better outcomes with DH. It’s slow slow work with all of the Ts. I guess I need sort of in the meantime options.

OR - I’m going to do a lot more research into triangulation, because it’s clear to me that I’m being stuck in a triangle I’m not comfortable with nor navigating well. Thanks.


 

[livednlearned]

Much harder to do with a child who is  living under the same roof. Guess that’s what I get for thinking the nightmare was temporary.

Oof. I'm with you, Nope. I had a uBPD brother, married and divorced someone with BPD, then fell in love and married H, whose SD22 appears to be BPD. It's a virtual merry go round. I cannot seem to get off the ride 

This is the right board to skill up and learn about your new normal. I learned so much about boundaries and negotiating extreme conflict from the family law board, and here I have learned some of the most profound and deep and difficult lessons of my life.

To once removed's comments about triangulation -- I found Harriet Lerner's books (Dance with Anger, Dance with Intimacy, etc.) are excellent at elaborating on triangulation using example scenarios. Her work helped me visualize how to step outside the triangle in a way that made sense with my family dynamics.

I found it challenging to be the emotional leader without feeling like a martyr. I'm not sure quite how to describe it -- somehow I got to a place where I didn't feel victimized (or try not to) by my role, but it took some work to get there. Not a straight path, for sure.

[Nope]

I found it challenging to be the emotional leader without feeling like a martyr. I'm not sure quite how to describe it -- somehow I got to a place where I didn't feel victimized (or try not to) by my role, but it took some work to get there. Not a straight path, for sure.

Yes! Exactly! On some level, that is a question that often occurs to me. Why is it *my* responsibility to be in any way involved in this? Why do *I* have to do the work, learn the skills, and lead in this, when *I* am not the one creating the conflict. Even getting off this ride in healthy manner means me doing work.

And I'm doubting if I have the energy for it, between starting a new full time job, taking classes toward a graduate degree, and being there for our demanding toddler. None of these things can be taken off my plate because the toddler needs me, and I'm required to be in school as a condition of my employment. But sure, I'll just go ahead and find time to do all of this other reading and practicing these new skills above and beyond the reading and research I need to do for school and learning how to do my new job. No problem! (/sarcasim) Neither DH or SS feel particularly compelled to act better in light of my struggle either. (See, now I'm the victim.) I feel like I should be able to tell them that they both just need to grow up, and then have them, you know, actually do it.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[livednlearned]

Even getting off this ride in healthy manner means me doing work.

Relationships take work, so that is definitely true. Getting off the ride means changing your role, never easy. There will be resistance. Your H is already using guilt to try and keep you doing something he doesn't have the patience or strength for (by saying, You're not a mom anymore.")

To change the role you're in, you'll probably have to do less and then detach with love from any negative reaction he has. The more independent you become in this instance, the more abandonment-type behaviors both H and SS will feel, is my guess. They aren't sure how to solve their problems and they resent you for doing what they know is their responsibility, and not doing it, even if they can't articulate the bind they put you in.

BPD is, for me, a relational problem. I had to realize that with H, as wonderful as he is, there are some extreme behaviors prominent in his relationship with SD22, and they are somewhat contagious, if that's the right word. She is relatively disabled by BPD behaviors, and he is disabled when dealing with those BPD behaviors. I am a partner with him in almost all ways except for this particular relationship. So my role is different. There was a lot of work involved in getting to that realization. You are already there  

If he says again, You are not a mom anymore, your answer might be, "Of course I am a mom. What I am not is a professional."

You have a young child, are moving ahead in your career, adding lots of responsibilities, trying to make a blended family work with a dependent child who has special needs and more than one family member recovering from trauma. That would outstrip the abilities of most people, especially a stepmom. There is only so much we can do.

Meanwhile, in my family dynamic, I took many small quiet steps back. I do not comment when H is exasperated by SD22, I do not ask questions anymore, I do not offer advice or solutions or get my hopes up that anything will be different if H and SD22 are left to their own devices. I believe it will take a crisis for them to change and I won't feel guilty when it happens because my abilities and influence are actually  limited even if my insights and predictions are accurate.

It can be cathartic to stand down. I draw strength from staying in my lane, even when others want me in their's.
 
The hard part is doing this with kindness and patience and tolerance and detachment.

All I have to do is say SD22's name in H's presence and he tenses up. And yet, when I do not engage when there is a problem with SD22, he wants to know what I think, what I feel. And then he resists and sometimes get anxious and at times angry. I think for him the possibility that he is dealing with third-generation BPD is more than he can bear, and his circuits are fried. He relapses to codependent enabling behaviors that are making SD22 sicker even as she seems to take a big step toward adulthood and independence.

I don't know how similar our situations are so things might be different for you. What worked for me is: less is more. Stay in my lane. Sit on my hands. And have rock solid boundaries even if it takes a lot of fumbling around to get there. Once I am clear on what I need, I try to implement new limits in the least adversarial most strategic way and then sit back and let those limits work for me.

If it's any consolation, learning this next level of skills for dealing with BPD behaviors has been life-changing in a way that's hard to describe. I hope this path brings you to the same place, Nope.  

[livednlearned]

...also, this thing with H and SD22 made me a way better parent to S17. 

There is a silver lining.