First post - need support and advice

[MidLifCrysis1]

I only found this by accident. In fact I only found out that my wife fits the BPD profile by accident.

I don’t know what I’m expecting from here but I figured I had to start by posting something...

How do you all get through this?

I feel so alone and sad and defeated.
The future seems pretty devoid of hope.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

i found the forum and BPD by accident too 

, MidLifCrysis1.

whats going on in your relationship right now? we can help.

[fizzingwhizbee]

I also found this forum by accident! I found this forum recently and have been reading a fair few of the posts...

I wanted to post myself but I keep getting a 'sorry we archived this topic' when I try to post in this area:

Detaching and Learning after a Failed Relationship

And then I couldn't see this one: Bettering a Relationship or Reversing a Breakup

The option to post 'first post' seems to come up with different areas?

[MidLifCrysis1]

Current state of things could be categorized as "Determinedly making the uphill climb while carrying several large rocks and in violent and volatile weather."

Specifics du jour are MAJOR projection problems. My wife is totally in denial of her condition (undiagnosed, but fits the symptoms 95% to the letter). But she also is very much on board with our relationship and communication etc. We have strategies that she claims are mostly fool-proof when things aren't going well - talk kindly and lovingly about the issue; don't let it go unaddressed. However, as you might guess, when I try to execute on this, in response to some mis-interpreted experience that she encounters, not only am I to blame for the awful experience (that I often don't even understand), I am also to blame for my handling of the negative experience - that at first I don't even know is a negative experience, and then when I try to do what we have agreed is the best approach to such things, she responds very negatively (animosity, fury, deep-rooted hurt) like I am a hostile, self-centered, jerk who betrays our agreements and such. Then she "remembers" the situation in reverse, attesting thereafter that I caused the problem and then refused to do anything to address it - and acted like a defensive, spiteful bastard to boot.

Then she is devastated for days and requires that I practically break-down in humble, remorseful, apologetic sorrow for the atrocity I have put her through. In the meantime, she is unfriendly, hostile, hurtful, etc.

It is SO maddening to do everything right and still get a hellacious outcome. I am SO tired of riding this ride.

I'm sure this must sound like a hundred other people's experiences. Is there some "best practices" or tips or something compiled somewhere? What has worked to get high-functioning BPDs to break their denial walls and get help?

[MiseryMarriage#3]

How to Stop Walking on Eggshells and the companion workbook have been very helpful to me.  This is a brain disorder, and just like someone with any mental health issue, you can't expect them to behave in a way that "makes sense."  Empathy and compassion help YOU cope.  I'm sorry you are going through this.  It's not fun.  Mine recognizes his mental health issues, but I can't say that it makes it any easier.  His awareness doesn't change the way he is wired. 

[Steps31]

I also suggest https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MBH8GRT/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 which was written by someone suffering from BPD.

[once removed]

However, as you might guess, when I try to execute on this, in response to some mis-interpreted experience that she encounters, not only am I to blame for the awful experience (that I often don't even understand), I am also to blame for my handling of the negative experience

can you give us some specific examples of how this has gone in the past? we can walk it through.

[MidLifCrysis1]

@Steps31 - Thank you for the book rec. I will look into it.

@once removed - Certainly. Thank you.

So, when all is "well" we agree that if something I am doing/causing/behaving/whatever is "going bad" for her, she will immediately alert me so that I can put on the brakes and do the following (more or less).

Ask kindly, lovingly, respectfully about the trouble. Listen without judging. Do not defend. All the usual proper empathetic communication techniques. And she is supposed to explain is similar fashion about the problem. We discuss, address, whatever the issue. And all is well.

That's the theory.

My very main problem is that, as you might guess, at the point that something is going badly for her, all the triggering mechanisms come into play and a myriad of things such as raging, misinterpreting/misperceiving (like thinking my talking kindly to address the issue is actually either me doing nothing or me attacking her with hostility), rewriting facts to fit feelings, etc. happen and that derails the plan for de-escalation and resolution - although again, this is registered by her as MY horrible, self-serving, betraying, hostile actions/inactions, rather than hers. She even has taken to calling me "Hyde" - the irony is sometimes very hard to swallow.

So, instead of the incident getting squashed before it explodes, it explodes even more. It becomes one of the no-win-scenarios. If I do as we agreed, it is misperceived. If I do not do as we agreed, I am either not addressing the problem or going against our agreements, hence betrayal. Either way, I am the "villain" and have "caused what could've been a small issue to drag on," "ruined yet another occasion/opportunity/experience," "completely destroyed all trust that had been built" (mind you we've been together since age 17, now age 43).

I can not logically approach any of the events, because they are recalled by her in this nightmarish form and any attempt I make to do or say anything, other than to offer as much of a grovelling apology for my atrocities as I can honestly muster, is meant with monstrous reactivity for my "tit-for-tat" or "deflecting" or "defending" or "attacking" and angry arguments rather than any attempt at resolution.

Now, sometimes she needs me to demonstrate a proportional amount of emotional remorse for the atrocities matching her level of trauma about the topic - which, of course, I can not manage to do. In such cases, I am at a loss on how to do anything to move the situation toward an ending or resolution while she is stuck waiting for my remorseful breakdown in order to be satisfied.

That all sounded pretty rambling as I wrote. My apologies. There's so much to convey...but I expect you know that.

I appreciate any insights or suggestions.

And, yes, I do try to keep all of the standard issue communication strategies to keep things cool. That part isn't in question. It's the no win scenario and lack of ability to meet some internal need she seems to think I am required to meet when she perceives that I have wronged her.

[once removed]

My very main problem is that, as you might guess, at the point that something is going badly for her, all the triggering mechanisms come into play and a myriad of things such as raging, misinterpreting/misperceiving (like thinking my talking kindly to address the issue is actually either me doing nothing or me attacking her with hostility), rewriting facts to fit feelings, etc. happen
...
So, instead of the incident getting squashed before it explodes, it explodes even more.

it does sound like a no win scenario 

have you tried tabling discussions when they become destructive? if so, what happens?

I appreciate any insights or suggestions.

can you provide a specific and recent example of something the two of you were fighting over, some of the he said/she said? it will give us a clearer impression of how things might go differently, strategies you might try.

additionally, how long have the two of you been married? are there good times, and times of calm, or are things mostly rough?

[MidLifCrysis1]

have you tried tabling discussions when they become destructive? if so, what happens?

Not really permitted to delay. If I am not obviously accusing her of being irrational, then I am being a coward or not facing/addressing the problems.

additionally, how long have the two of you been married? are there good times, and times of calm, or are things mostly rough?

Married officially 19 years - but been together since we were 17...now 43. "Things" have gotten steadily worse over the years, especially the last several. We definitely fit that "when things are good, things are great" picture. But to go from good to bad can be like a light switch that can be thrown by almost any occurrence. Returning to non-crisis mode can happen from minutes to occasionally an entire week. And the more time in crisis, the weirder, rockier, and shakier the road back is.

can you provide a specific and recent example of something the two of you were fighting over, some of the he said/she said?

Abbreviated breakdown...
Me: "I'll go and mow the lawn some." (this is usually something that she takes care of and takes very personally)
BP: "OK. Great." (seems like a non-issue, right?)

So, while I am mowing, she is dropping "tips" in my direction to help me "do it correctly."
Then, she's having a full-blown breakdown about it - crying, looking like a trapped animal, sounding hopeless, yelling at me.

10 minute blasting/wailing speech encompassing how the kids never do it right, you hear me all the time about this, you should know how it needs to be done after all this time, we talked about this ad nauseum, it feels like no one listens or cares about me, why doesn't anyone care about me and my needs, etc.

So I do some of the proper, non-JADE things: no defending or explaining, empathy, reflecting her statements with understanding, sounding calm and caring, etc..

Now, here's the special part that I do not know how to handle.

Me: "I'm sorry. I can see that how I was mowing has caused you a lot of disturbance. I thought how I was doing it was going to be helpful. I didn't mean to upset you."
BP: "Well, it wasn't helpful. It was a waste of your time and a waste of mine. If you want to waste time, just go back in the house."
Me: "I am not trying to waste your time or mine. Let's talk about how I can mow so that it is more in line with how you'd like it to be done..."
(some more general conversation for about a minute where comms goes fairly well)
BP: (suddenly more agitated again) "And you're just standing there thinking about how I'm such a b!tch and always have to have everything my way!"
Me: "Whoa. Hang on...I, in now way said or feel like you are being a b!tch. I, in fact, totally said to you how I understand that my misunderstanding how you wanted to mowing to be done could be upsetting to you, remember?"
BP: "You didn't even apologize. You just stand there thinking about what a b!tch I am."

So...I am conscious of a lot of things, but I seriously just don't know how to operate in a conversation where obvious and clear statements that I make (or she makes) can be 180 degree opposite or stricken from the record entirely seconds, minutes, hours, or days later. I can avoid doing JADE about an issue now, but now I feel the pull to do JADE when my non-JADEing is referred to as awful behavior or not registered at all.

What does one do with something like this:
"I need you to apologize."
"OK. I apologize."
"Why are you being argumentative? Why can't you own what you did wrong? Why can't you face up to your actions and apologize?"
"Uhm...I still/re-apologize...?" Like Wtf?

[once removed]

thanks. that helps a great deal. i think there is some good room here for things to potentially go more smoothly, or, at least, not become worse.

there are lots of elements from the Surviving Confrontation and Disrespect portion of the lessons that can be useful here. it sounds like you are using a lot of elements from Balanced Responses and Better Outcomes for Crisis (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=168004.msg11986938#msg11986938). good. dont over validate (or validate the invalid), though. it sounds like at a certain point, she begins mind reading and ascribing motives/thoughts, and you cant really argue with that. so its possible that calmly discussing (or arguing with the mind reading), once things have broken down to a certain point, could even make things worse.

BP: (suddenly more agitated again) "And you're just standing there thinking about how I'm such a b!tch and always have to have everything my way!"

this is a good example of when things have broken down to the point that theyre unlikely to return. one good option would be to let it go. youd just discussed how shed like you to mow the lawn, and it was going reasonably for a moment, right? (in this example) try pivoting, say something loving, get back to doing it.

Not really permitted to delay. If I am not obviously accusing her of being irrational, then I am being a coward or not facing/addressing the problems.

another option, when you know things have broken down to the point of no return, is to take a healthy time out.

the trick is to do it in as benign a way as possible. no blame. no punishment. just a way to stop the bleeding, recharge your batteries, with reassurance that the conversation can resume soon. sometimes it can be as simple as summarizing what shes said, letting her know you need some time to consider it, and youll get back to her.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=84942.0

she may call you a coward, and she may bait you, if shes worked up enough. see it for what it is, and dont let it throw you off course - she does it because she needs an outlet in that moment. now, its important to pick your battles...sometimes venting helps a person blow off steam and make them feel heard, and sometimes it just works them up even further. in the latter case, its important not to participate, and to let her self soothe. its important too, to be consistent, reassure (dont overdo it) that youll be back, so she begins to see benefits of taking a time out, self soothing, voicing her concerns in a more constructive way.

What does one do with something like this:
"I need you to apologize."
"OK. I apologize."
"Why are you being argumentative? Why can't you own what you did wrong? Why can't you face up to your actions and apologize?"
"Uhm...I still/re-apologize...?" Like Wtf?

are you sorry when you say it or are you saying it to make it go away? because if youre doing the latter, its not only validating the invalid, but she can probably see right through it. apologize sincerely and specifically when youre sorry. otherwise, try the above method. summarize what shes saying, take some time to consider it.

does that make sense?

[MidLifCrysis1]

Thanks, O.R., those were helpful insights.

I had not seen that article about escaping the situation when all hope is lost; I will dig into that.

As for this one, though, I was pretty much just abbreviating, but you're not entirely wrong; I just don't know what to do.

are you sorry when you say it or are you saying it to make it go away? because if youre doing the latter, its not only validating the invalid, but she can probably see right through it. apologize sincerely and specifically when youre sorry. otherwise, try the above method. summarize what shes saying, take some time to consider it.

Of course, I try to be sincere and such when apologizing, and I try to steer clear of val-the-inval. However, she has grown super-particular and requiring almost exact wording and expression and the like, otherwise, "it's not an apology." So, there are two distinct problems, now that I'm actually typing it out...

1. I apologize sincerely for hurting her, etc. and she completely mis-receives/perceives the information/delivery. Kind words, proper tone, body language, etc from me is reported back as no apology, defending/deflecting, angry and argumentative. I am then at a loss on how to proceed, other than to simply try again.

2. She listens to me, but I don't say and do exactly whatever it is that seems to be the require incantation inside her head to register as a remorseful, from the heart apology. The words aren't laser targeting whatever she believes to be the transgression (which I now understand is her needing me to val-the-inval) and I can't get around it. And/or, if/when I do get the words right, she tells me some other feature was out-of-compliance and thereby invalidated the whole effort.

I think it is a way for her to (unconciously) make me suffer and squirm. I can usually handle it for a bit, but it really starts to eat away at my patience and tolerance. It is bad enough the initial situation is usually something ridiculous, without all this extra-credit dramatic absurdity. It is also VERY disrespectful and degrading to me - in general and in her words and delivery especially.

I grow tired...

[Red5]

I think it is a way for her to (unconsciously) make me suffer and squirm. I can usually handle it for a bit, but it really starts to eat away at my patience and tolerance. It is bad enough the initial situation is usually something ridiculous, without all this extra-credit dramatic absurdity. It is also VERY disrespectful and degrading to me - in general and in her words and delivery especially.

I grow tired...

man… I could've written that : (

Her favorite lines…

# I love you 'but'…

# I apologize 'but'…

'but' =  

I've come to believe that this circular - argument - dysregulation - conundrum… "nothing is ever good enough" (apology)… is nothing more than "supply" to person whom is borderline (my wife)… it's a "soap opera" for them… a "hit" of dopamine… my ubpdw's mum, and both sisters are just like this as well… constant drama, constant.

Keep posting MidLifCrysis1

Red5

[MidLifCrysis1]

Guys, I fear a major break-point is rapidly approaching. I think our only hope is for her to somehow see that she needs help, but I do not know how to get her to see it. I know some have said that it hasn't made their lives any easier, but I think it will for us if she can admit the situation to herself and commit to addressing it.

I can certainly be supportive in this, but I don't know how much longer we can go on in the state that we are in.

I need to know what has worked to get high-functioning BPDs to break their denial/anosognosis walls and SEE that they need to get help? Or even what works to get them help whether they see/agree or not (I doubt this is even a thing).

I am afraid for her and our family. It is a critical time - she is 1/2 thru a master's program, both our daughters are leaving the house for college in mid August, my father (effectively the only real father she has ever known) just died a month ago...lots of stressors.

  Please...let fly any thoughts or advice.

[Forgiveness]

I think it would help to disengage.

Your apologies and efforts to soothe may be rewarding the behavior.

It's like if you gave a child a cookie every time they threw a tantrum, they would throw more tantrums.

She is enjoying using you as a punching bag. You are giving her more opportunities to do so.

She is right, you are not really apologizing. In fact you *can't* apologize when you did nothing wrong. You might not be thinking "she's a b!tch" but you are indeed frustrated with her, which is a normal reaction. And you are indeed thinking you did nothing wrong.

I would simply disengage. You say you are not "allowed" however you are in charge of yourself. You have the ability to walk away from a fight. It's OK to say, "let's talk about this in an hour, because I want to interact with you when you are not yelling at me."

My other advice would be to take some time to focus on other things, so that your brain isn't consumed by this. Sometimes we do our best thinking with some distance.

[once removed]

Guys, I fear a major break-point is rapidly approaching.

whats going on, MLC?

[MidLifCrysis1]

O.R. - I can't put it into an encapsulated descriptive blurb, but you must know how hyperaware we all get to what's going to with our BP partners at any moment in time, in order to better navigate the shifting minefield.

Well, I guess I'm sensing something fairly major building up. Crisis mode has come far more often and intensely than almost ever before; more difficulty clawing back to a regulated state; a dichotomous state that is kind of new (meaning, she is now speaking about being more self-aware of how she feels, but not being able to control it, but at the same time still lashing out at me in the same irrational ways, while at the same time talking about how she wants to be close and work things out --- this particular cocktail is all quite new). In the past, the mood and reactivity would be volatile as expected, but would usually be fairly one-dimensional, insofar as she would go from "I love you. You're the best." (Hero) to "I hate you. You are a failure." (Villain) and then claw her way back. But it never had the multiplicity it does now. It's a drastic and significant change - and it's not short-term, at least not VERY short-term, as it hasn't been around THAT long yet - maybe a month or two...

But, as stated in my earlier post, there are A LOT of stressors in play lately, for quite some time, and more coming up soon. I don't know if she is maybe just finally going to pieces from the inside out or what, but it feels ominous.

She's got the bad fortune of a horrible childhood (abuse, basically raising siblings, atrocious living conditions, etc.) that has left huge damage on her and all her siblings.

She's struggled with parenting for just under 2 decades.

She's working part-time in a very psychically trying inner city counseling center, while trying to complete her master's in social work online which has a VERY intense level of coursework demand.

Both our girls are leaving our very close and somewhat introverted home in August for residential college life (one's only 16).

And due to the frequency and depth of her episodes, she is now forming a serious and strong fear that I am losing my mind (dementia or some such) due to the amount of informational and interactive communication and behavioral breakdown between the two of us - aka: "You said/never said this/that." "Those aren't the words you used." "You said this and you did that." "I said/did not say this." Because she is experiencing so many discrepancies in me or what she believes I said, or what she believes that she said, she is reeling from the constant barrage of traumas. She feels she can't trust me or rely on me because I am so inconsistent and inexplicably irrational and my words don't match my actions.

She can't rest and recover bc she keeps getting hit with a new stressful experience, which is having such a profound effect.

She barely gets any rest at all while sleeping (tossing/turning, talking, crying, fighting, even yelling, etc. while asleep). Sometimes, waking up while exhausted at crazy am hours and not being able to go back to sleep.

Generally pretty bad existence and I feel in my bones that she/we are on a downward slide that seems different than the usual cycling kind.

I am afraid for her. She seems determinedly fearful, hopeless, helpless, and stupendously weary.

[Forgiveness]

PS  I forgot to mention, I'm really sorry your dad died. He sounds like a good guy. You have a lot going on right now.

[All_Out_of_Sync]

MLC, it sounds like a really difficult spot right now, I can understand the worry of it getting worse/spiraling.   

The dissociative part of not recalling what was said/not said during stressful & emotional conversations has made the spiral so much worse in my own situation. I hear you on that.   For myself, I started journaling a few years ago in order to stay "anchored in reality", to be able to go back and check myself. It can also be good to process conversations on your own that way.  Have you done anything like that for your own peace of mind?

Do you have the ability to step back and do some self care?  Even a few hours to recenter/distract yourself? 

[MidLifCrysis1]

Sync, I have been following your situation as well - as I too noticed the similarities. I literally have it open in a separate tab when I read your reply to mine.
Been wanting to offer some insight there, but obviously haven't fit it in yet.

As for your questions/suggestions, I have never been a good journaler, but despite that, I do go there when times get bad and I am feeling completely cut off from the rest of the universe - that is, until I found this support site  .

I have been able to look at the notes I've kept with the new insight about BPD and what I've learned here and it is like all the fog has lifted. I see so much that I did not see before. Just recently, I filled a page with things she told me that I said and did in one long stream, without really analyzing it as I went along. Then I stepped back and looked at it and almost saw the word watermarked across the page: "PROJECTION" - it was almost frightening. Almost every single entry on the page was something I had not done, and she had - or likely had going on inside.

So, for reflection, venting, and sanity-checking, yes - I have done journalling in that capacity. But really, after the amount of time involved, the relief and elation of new insight is very fleeting because my mind, heart, and soul pretty much immediately cries out, "OMG! Great! No it makes some sense! --- So, now what? Where does that get me? How will this help the next catastrophe du jour?" And I am struggling against the hopelessness.

As far as this:

Do you have the ability to step back and do some self care?  Even a few hours to recenter/distract yourself?

- mostly, no. I do not. I am utilizing this site and watching videos from the tools section and such during work hours (for which I am grappling with guilt), as it is about the only chance I can find to do anything. I don't even know how to get my hands on the other rec books and such that I want to read without her knowing, nevermind finding any opportunity to actually read them.

And I just noticed as I finished typing that, that everything I listed was still focused on addressing the relationship/spousal crisis and not even technically "self care or self distraction"

My Dad dying, Mom living alone 3 hrs away, both daughters leaving home in 6 weeks, etc. is taking a heavy toll on ME - not counting the usual amount of almost-all-that-I-am that I throw into managing my relationship the way it usually has been...and lately it is growing worse, more constant, and more difficult.

Hence...crying out for I guess.

[once removed]

you must know how hyperaware we all get to what's going to with our BP partners at any moment in time, in order to better navigate the shifting minefield.

you mean walking on eggshells 

there are A LOT of stressors in play lately,

people with bpd traits definitely dont do stress well; stress tests us all, and can bring out the worst in us, even more so for someone with bpd traits.

I need to know what has worked to get high-functioning BPDs to break their denial/anosognosis walls and SEE that they need to get help?

she would probably take this about as well as you take being told that you have dementia and are losing your mind; she would hear "you are broken, you are the cause of your/our problems, and you need help".

its by and large how i felt in my relationship, and how i approached it. my ex was diagnosed with bipolar, and not bpd. i know that she felt my attitude about that, and how one down in the relationship it made her feel, and how one up it made me. i also know looking back, it wasnt that simple. a lot of my problems, a lot of my stress could have been alleviated with a different approach.

your wifes stress can be an opportunity to support her, and to bond. to do little things, to listen, to validate, and to ask how you can help. these things can build trust, as well as good will.

at the same time, youre handling a lot of stress as well (she is unfortunately less likely to be able to support you in that right now). it would be a good idea to see a therapist or a counselor, as part of your support system. it is also possible that she may follow your lead.

[once removed]

how are things going?

[lotusblossom1]

I would also like to hear how things are going. please come on back and update

[MidLifCrysis1]

Funny you folks thought to check in on me last night.
You maybe felt the tremors that got sent out across the Universe from my house.

Things have been consistently poor.
I have been terribly despondent for days and days.
My wife has been, what seems like, almost constantly in BPDmode like 85%+ of the time - counting sleeptime, as far as I can tell.

But yesterday was really bad - and a big part of it was my failure. In my defense, I was feeling dreadfully sick since lying down in bed the night before, all thru the night and following day. I didn't have the means to maintain a solid front against the fantastic timing of a major attack by my wife.

I tried to disengage 2, maybe 3, times. She would not let me. Physically prevented me from leaving. I was supposed to be leaving anyway, to go pick up our daughter from work and she had already made me late. Then she out of the blue turned and walked out with the car keys, presumably to go do that, while yelling at me that "You can't control what I do!" while obviously controlling what I do. That's when I lost it and tried to prevent her from driving off. I grabbed her bag, slammed the car door, etc. She only succeeded by tearing my keyring off of my beltloop and jumping in the car.

I am really not sure I can keep this up. Almost every single thing she says/yells at me is exactly what someone should be saying to her, not me. The projection/irony is maddening and frankly creeping me out.

No matter what I change or how much better our interactions go (on average), she scores things as "usual - which means, crappy." Basically, no matter how things are, they are simply not good and not improving in her mind. Whatever is normal = bad. I guess it's that black hole thing, but OMG!

Nothing really seems to work anymore. I don't know if it is some of the "it gets worse before it gets better" thing or what, but we are SO unhappy at being so disconnected that it makes everything generally suck. And, of course, everything sucking is all my fault, which makes it worse for me. And, of course, I can't really talk to her about anything, which makes it all worse-er...

Doesn't feel much like we're heading any good direction at all. In fact, she said to me yesterday, "I am powerless to do anything except sit by and watch you destroy our relationship. And I don't even know why, cause you won't tell me."

 

[I Am Redeemed]

This thread has been locked and split due to posting limits. Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338465.0