Return of the queen

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I'm surprised (pleasantly so) that it took this long.  My wife and I have been together with her out of work (out for the summer..she is teacher) for a few weeks now.  It's been completely pleasant.

Today...Return of the queen. 

I'm not allowed to do laundry...apparently not allowed to do dishes...the chore chart was completely reworked...gotta straighten out all the BS (she actually said it in full in front of the kids) that has been going on here for far too long.

I'm trying to focus on  being polite and not "biting"..not fighting back.  We'll see if this passes.

Really didn't want to have to pull out my BPD "toolbox"...haven't had to use it in a while.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I'm surprised (pleasantly so) that it took this long.  My wife and I have been together with her out of work (out for the summer..she is teacher) for a few weeks now.  It's been completely pleasant.

Today...Return of the queen. 

I'm not allowed to do laundry...apparently not allowed to do dishes...the chore chart was completely reworked...gotta straighten out all the BS (she actually said it in full in front of the kids) that has been going on here for far too long.

I'm trying to focus on  being polite and not "biting"..not fighting back.  We'll see if this passes.

Really didn't want to have to pull out my BPD "toolbox"...haven't had to use it in a while.

Best,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Does that mean you're off chore duty for laundry and dishes? Sounds like a win to me. 

[formflier]

Does that mean you're off chore duty for laundry and dishes? Sounds like a win to me. 

Yeah..I'm trying to look at the positives.

It started out as "let me do a load of laundry after you are done" to which I of course agreed.  Then when I asked if she needed to do another load (after her load was done), since I had more to do she said "As long as you aren't doing anyone else's you can do a load."

(I avoided laughing outloud)

A bit befuddled I said, well..since the sheets are on our bed I'm not sure if they are "yours, mine or ours"...then I asked her how she wanted to handle it...if she wanted to do that as well.

She said "sure"...marched into the bedroom in dramatic fashion...and stripped the bed putting it into the laundry.

Whatever..

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Now shouting at her children that her computer doesn't work right.  The "scroll bar is hidden".

Children shouting back and her and at each other.  All claiming the others don't understand each other...

FFw is making sure she is "head shouter"

Lovely...if kids weren't joining in I wouldn't intervene.   How to do this neutrally?..sigh.

FF

[formflier]

You guys know me...I usually get "bit" by "tools" never before used by FFw.

I'm not sure if I got "bit" or not.  So I'll just tell the story.

I'm standing there tinkling away when my wife walks in.  (we're pretty open with bathroom stuff)

I think we said a few things back and forth. 

When I get done tinkling she demands "put the seat down".

I was honestly befuddled...I don't think she has EVER asked this before.  I stammered "do what...I didn't move the seat..?"

"You put the seat down!"

So...I put the seat and the lid down. 

She says "oh no...don't you dare.  It's always got to be something with you."

I have no idea where my line came from but I said "I feel the same" as I walked away. 

Ummm...that was really weird. 

She was pissy for 30 min or so and seems to have calmed down.

The thing is...had she asked nicely, I can't imagine I would have thought twice about it. 

I don't respond to demands.

Did I get "hooked" or was that an appropriate response? 

Sigh.

FF

[GaGrl]

You may have gotten hooked into being a normal married guy for a moment...don't sweat it.

The bigger question is...is FFwife beginning an escalation, and it so, is there anything you can do to hear it off?

I get the impression that she is very "high activity" and summer vacation may be less activity and structure than is best for her. Plus her title and role helps define her.

[AskingWhy]

Chores must be an odd thing with BPDs.

My uBPD H plans out things for me to do:  leaves out cleaning supplies, etc.  If I take too long to get around to doing them, H starts right ahead doing them, then goes about sulking and pouting before exploding and telling me I am a lazu c*nt, and that he had to do the chores for me. 

It's a control thing.

[formflier]

  If I take too long to get around to doing them, H starts right ahead doing them, then goes about sulking and pouting before exploding and telling me I am a lazu c*nt, and that he had to do the chores for me. 

It's a control thing.

Almost exactly the same thing.  Instead of having a conversation/asking there is a demand/direction...with no notice and no awareness of that I may already be doing something else.

I used to believe trying to do them was a show of love (I'm big on acts of service) yet now it's undeniable there is correlation between me "almost never" giving in to my wife's demands and ONLY responding to polite requests.

Yesterday was an example of a time when I was "fuzzy" on my boundaries.  My wife is not a tech person.  I'm not the best but I can be disciplined in troubleshooting and if I know how to do something...I know and can recreate it.

So...my wife is yelling at the computer...yelling at our children about the computer and she actually asked (in a mean/exasperated way) me for help. 

So I would be close to her gather information and when she got prickly I would go do something else and let her work through her next steps (instead of me doing it for her).  I would let her know I would be back in just a sec.

She got through it and got the program to work.  Her distress was palpably lower once it was working. 

That's really about the only area I can think of where I'm not a "hardazz" on sticking around for weird communications.

She is a great teacher...she is not a great user of technology in teacher, but is getting better at it.  I'm trying to help.


Amazing how the same "playbook" is shared by our pwBPD. 

Best,

FF

[Red5]

... I’ve noticed several “Jack Nicholson’s “ in this thread...

So sorry ... I apologize in advance Formflier... but I just can’t resist  

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oKDXR1RmVg0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vyMggFe9WRQ

I’m a “yuge” Jack Nicholson fan 

“If you can’t laugh about it, then you’re already dead”

Red5

 

[formflier]

Hey..serious question.

What is a "healthy" response when I start to use the washing machine and my wife "appears from nowhere" asking "What are you washing"

Apparently checking if I am violating her ban.

On the one hand I don't want to do drama or conflict about her ridiculous pronouncement, on the other hand I would be silly to "train" her that I'm ok with being monitored and being and open book.

"Oh my...dirty things...why do you ask?" might be a good starting place.

Yeah...I know..overthinking.  Or is this an appropriate place to think ahead.

Best,

FF

PS...   Jack is the man!

[formflier]

I bit I can get Red to vote for me to use this line..

"FF wife...I'd be happy to lower the seat for you.  But you have to ask me nicely!  (I could add some lovely stuff at the end)"

Best,

FF

[Harri]

A bit befuddled I said, well..since the sheets are on our bed I'm not sure if they are "yours, mine or ours"...then I asked her how she wanted to handle it...if she wanted to do that as well.

What if instead you said:  I am planning on doing the bed sheets next.

If she is already in 'queen mode' why even go where you went with it?  A more neutral and centered response might have been better.

Thoughts?

[Red5]

I am a perpetual prepper... a logistics minded man, a high low supply minded man... and also a “checklist” type personality... FF and myself came from the world of “Naval Aviation”... for fun... google the acronym “NATOPS”... also the different classes of military supply... I lived and operated in the Class V(A) world for twenty six some “odd” years... think “ships stores”... “underway replenishment”...

I may have said to my wife (if it are me in a similar situation and as well being the overt smart ass)... “hun, how is the laundry detergent and the softner holding out, if you wash my whites, I want them bleached... and be sure to separate my work colors from my casuals... and don’t wash my light shirts in hot water, and let them air dry as I intend to starch and press them myself... “hun, hun, did you hear me”...

For more fun, read about that term... “hun”... or as I used it “hon”... look up the “hon fest” as celebrated in Baltimore... my first gf after my divorce drug me to that... her home town... another story for another day ...

My wife would tell me that she was going to do my laundry while I was at work... but she would never let me do hers... and I also asked her to let me “stow”’my clean clothes... “just leave them in them in my basket, I’ll put them away...

Yes... in the near distant past of our eight year marriage,  now separated... laundry detail has always been a bone of contention in our home...

It’s a control thing I’m sure...

A mans laundry reauiremts are usually driven by how many pairs of clean underwear is left in his drawer...  !

And there are different shades and levels of “dirty” depending on how you were raised and where you were raised... and life experiences...

...’eg’ how is it that the little wife, the BPD hermit queen accountant going to tell the old sea going Marine Master Sergeant about how the laundry is supposed to be done... yeah, ok...  

I’ve lots of stories (sea stories) about “laundry” while deployed half way round the world living in a tent in the desert and also underway aboard ship  !

One things for sure... in my old age, I find the term “domestication” to be an oxymoron...

Red5

[AskingWhy]

I am a perpetual prepper ... a logistics minded man, a high low supply minded man... and also a “checklist” type personality ... FF and myself came from the world of “Naval Aviation”... for fun ... google the acronym “NATOPS”... also the different classes of military supply ... I lived and operated in the Class V(A) world for twenty six some “odd” years ... think “ships stores”... “underway replenishment”

Red, I think being organised is a good way to plan for the day or a week.  Some things need to get done.  Being controlling, on the other hand, is a a control issue, for want of another word. 

If you can memorise the NATOPS from cover to cover, you can probably memorize anything!   

[Red5]

Red, I think being organised is a good way to plan for the day or a week.  Some things need to get done.  Being controlling, on the other hand, is a a control issue, for want of another word. 

If you can memorise the NATOPS from cover to cover, you can probably memorize anything!   

Yes Ma’am !

Even now, in my “retired job”... I actually write checklist (NATOPS)... for the DoN... as are used by the active service (Navy Marine) for loading weapons onboard aircraft... (procedures)...

But I wasn’t trusted with the weeks laundry, or the grocery list ...

Keeping in mind that I was a single dad, of three teenagers... still on active duty, between marriages...

Too funny...

But somewhere in there, I learned to relinquish “control” and let her be the boss of the washer and the dryer...

One would think that I had been lost in the woods all these years... and if not for Mrs. Red5, I’d still be living in a tree, or else eating out of a garbage can...that’s the way she came across to me... as if I were a child...

Yeah, too funny...

But in all seriousness... in the entire eleven year relationship... and eight of those married, it wasn’t until year nine that I had the BPD epiphany...and for a very long time I was extremely invalidating to her behaviors...which only made things so much worse...

I used to think to myslef... “she sure does like to fight”  : (

We’ve been separated now for six months... and I do miss her.

Sorry for the highjack Formflier...

Red5

[Notwendy]

One thing to consider is that- when your wife is in school- her classroom is her domain. She has control of how she wants it and it seems she does a pretty good job of it. Now that she's home, she may wish for some level of control over her domain there. If it isn't a big deal, why not let her have it. Does it matter who does the laundry if it gets done anyway?

It can feel crazy, but needing control is part of the issue. Remember in child rearing, giving kids control over a part of things is allowing them to safely assert themselves. They can pick whatever shirt they want to wear, or whether they want a cheese sandwich or peanut butter sandwich. Maybe pw BPD need more control than others. Maybe they didn't get appropriate parenting or maybe they use control as a way to manage their emotions.

It's probably mainly for summer. Once school starts she'll have her classroom back. Maybe not sweating the small stuff- who does what laundry, or how you put the seat down- will help. If it gets to the "big stuff" : finances, major decisions, - then this is something to work on.

[formflier]

I'm not going to wrestle control of her laundry or other laundry from her.

My question that I'm considering is giving/allowing her control over me and my laundry habits. 

Best,

FF

[Red5]

*Maybe pw BPD need more control than others.

*Maybe they didn't get appropriate parenting or maybe they use control as a way to manage their emotions.

BINGO! (mike drop)

Once you (the non) understand this, it does make it easier to cope with their day to day behaviors, "BPD" mannerisms.

… had I understood this early on, things may have turned out different for me and my uBPDw…

I've read as much in several (multiple) books… that are on the (should be) on the non's required reading list… starting with SWOE… (que NATOPS) here… ie' "emergency procedures".

All covered and discussed at nauseum here in the tools section, of this awesome website.

At the end of the day, "a hard row to hoe" for all of us in these relationships, no matter the combination there of.

Red5

[Notwendy]

IMHO, the control aspect is emotional, so dealing with it rationally doesn't work. It's not a rational need but an emotional one.

I don't have control issues with housework or child care because, basically, it's all my job. I do it how I want to. For my H though, the control is over his work, his domain, his possessions. He actually has his own refrigerator, because the kids were getting into "his food" and his own shelves on the pantry for "his food". From my perspective, we are one family and the milk, cheese, snacks and other snack foods are communal but that doesn't work emotionally for the family.

With BPD mom, the issues are more intense. You don't dare touch anything in her house without her permission or she goes bizzerk. If you take the trash can out for her, she will follow you out to the yard to make sure it goes exactly where she wants it down to the inch of space it sits in. You don't put any food in her fridge without her permission. I had bought my father foods he likes and put them in the fridge and she will throw them out. As a kid, if I left a toy out, it would likely be gone when I got home- either thrown out or held hostage until I behaved enough to get it back. As an adult, I don't stay with her when I visit, as you can imagine, it is more of a stage for trouble than the cost of a hotel room. I think you get the picture.

Rather than change the need for control, I try to not sweat the small stuff. If buying an extra fridge solves food conflicts, then buy the fridge. FF- your wife is only home all the time for the summer. When school starts you will have the place more to yourself. What can you live with to let her control and what can you not? I don't suggest we don't have any boundaries. It's more about solutions we can manage because we can not change the need for control- and so there needs to be some level of control for them.

[Enabler]

Hey FF,

I agree with Notwendy here.

I have been banned from doing laundry as well. Apparently I didn't pre-scrub enough. I have been banned from hanging up laundry as well due to not putting matching pairs of socks on the line together or apparently flattening things out correctly. There is nothing at all wrong with the way I do laundry or hang things up.

Similarly, having read some of her private conversations with her OM, it's pretty clear that me competently cooking is also not welcome because I make her feel bad. Rather than being a team player and mucking in helping where I can RELIEVE HER of stress, the childrens satisfaction when I produce a good meal produces negative emotions for which I AM TO BLAME FOR. My guess is feelings of shame, inadequacy, envy, guilt that she didn't do her wifely duties. All tasks that she identifies as 'pink work' come under this umbrella... cleaning, ironing, cooking, washing and grocery shopping.

The problem I have is that since she wants her cake and eat it, she wants the work to be done by her, yet she's not prepared to choose to do the work since she's eternally 'too busy'. So left to her own devices, going to the pub, socialising and now chatting with OM trump necessary chores. Also, chores are emotionally unpleasant so even if she did want to avoid the feelings mentioned above by doing the work, doing the work would result in additional negative feelings.

In the last year pretty much all domestic work has been 'painted black' along with general rejection of the marriage, being a mother and anything to do with our home. Me cleaning, cooking, washing and ironing just goes to reinforce her sense that 'I make her feel bad.'... and she seems strangely happy with this since is justifies her stance on the marriage and me.

Enabler   

[formflier]

The "queen" is taking a break today.  She seems very nice and relaxed.  No idea why...I'm going to try and not over think it.

I've got no problem letting her do kids laundry or letting kids to their own or whatever.  My question/boundary is when she starts want to monitor control me doing my laundry (although it may be her checking to make sure I'm not doing someone elses...or only doing what she approves of)

I don't feel the need to fight her on it...but I'm also not going to participate in my own "monitoring" for some BS rules.

Notwendy...wow...his on fridge.  Hmmm..

If we had more space I could find that attractive.

Best,

FF

[Red5]

Notwendy...wow...his own fridge.  Hmmm...

Yeah, that is pretty interesting…

Quick "war story"… the last time I deployed (WESTPAC - Iwakuni Japan)… this is when my first wife finally had enough of me and the Corps (she was bpd?)… so she split, before I got back home… resultant in the divorce after twenty one years of marriage... it was later on, after me and the kids (teenagers by then) executed orders to Cherry Point, and I was in single dad mode… we had our own place, quarters in base housing, down by the Neuse river… a townhouse… a little yard, each kid had their own room, and we had 2.5 baths… a one car garage… they had their pets… they were settled in school… my middle son S17 at that time… was driving and had a part time job on the golf course, he took everybody to school… we shopped at the commissary every Sunday after Church… I kept plenty of "ships stores" in the pantry… and one Sunday, as we were unloading the grocery's… my daughter says to me… and this floored me (sad face emoji)… she says… "Dad, when you were gone overseas, Mom would not go to the store, we were always running out of everything, there was not much to eat, and she didn't cook… so I used to keep food hidden in my room"…

… oh' boy : (

I told her, "Baby Girl, I'm so sorry, that you had to do that"... (as I said this, I wondered what my two Son's were doing back then, especially my autistic Son)… I continued… "we are going to be alright, those days are over now, we are going to be ok"… she started to cry a little, and so did I… that's was thirteen years ago.

I am willing to place $$ that your H, Notwendy… must have had some sort of childhood issue/trauma in regards to food, or perhaps lack there of… can you share any background in regards to this with us?

Yes, imho, the control issues are all linked back to some sort of foo dysfunction, in the early childhood years (bpd).

Red5

[GaGrl]

Childhood issues around food can have long-term effects.

My mother's stepmother (uNPD/BPD) maybe brained iron control over access to the fridge. My mother had to ask permission to open the fridge for as much as a glass of cold water. A breach could result in a rage. Prior to each visit with my grandparents, my sister and I received a reminder on refrigerator etiquette. Fortunately, by then There was a housekeeper home with us all day while Grandmother worked, and she let us do anything we wanted.

Now my mom is 93, and she has much stricter ideas about the fridge than we do. As far as we're concerned, anything in the fridge is fair game for anyone in the house. Mom wants everyone to check on who the food/leftovers "belongs" to. She's relaxing, but it's been weird.

[I Am Redeemed]

You might be on to something with that, Red.

My stbx ubpdh was very poor growing up. Food stamps, granddad hunted deer and squirrel for meat out of necessity. No bathroom in the house, used an outhouse and took baths with water heated on the stove and poured in a washtub.

He was very particular about having food he liked, and accused me and the kids of eating "his" food. Also criticized the meals I made (why did I make green peas again, why don't I make more side dishes, why don't I serve bread with every meal...white bread, mind you, and the loaf was right there on the counter if he wanted a piece). He tried to exercise control over the food, yet he resented "having to tell me how to do it".

He wanted control, but he also wanted me to read his mind and do things the way he wanted.

[Notwendy]

Yes there are food issues with both our FOO's.

My H didn't grow up without food, but his parents did have to stretch the food budget. My MIL is stoic, and shows her love for her family through making food.  My H does not know how to cook other than simple things. He did make some things before we got married but once we were married, cooking was my job and filled some emotional need. Food is also some kind of competition with his siblings at the table- you have to grab as much as you can.

Although we thankfully can afford food and I do all of the cooking, there is some food anxiety I think. I did a lot of cooking to keep the peace because if I didn't, he'd pitch a fit. I like to cook but doing it that way led to me feeling resentful of it. I don't cook as much now that the kids are off to college.

He would come home from work and get angry if the kids ate something he thought was "his". Well teen agers are bottomless pits. Having his own fridge made things more peaceful.

[Notwendy]

For your laundry FF, it may help to agree on a time when you get the laundry room. You can't all be doing laundry at the same time. So let's say your day is Wednesday am.  You both agree- you do it on this day/time, the boundary is you have the room to yourself. If your wife needs to check the basket to see there is nothing in there but your stuff, then that's her issue but she can let you do your laundry in peace.

[formflier]

In a house with less people the "this is your day" works.

The washing machine is going most of the time.  Especially when you consider that many of the girls things get washed on delicate and many of my things and boys things are greasy and need to be washed separately.

Then...I usually wash old towels or run a cleaner to make sure that a particularly nasty load is really cleaned out before going back to "normal" clothes.

We have the biggest front loader they have (or had at the time).  It's an engineering marvel.

Anyway...

Many clothes baskets started stinking when people had to wait..then there was blame for the stink...and rage.

If things are dirty...wash them.

If I have a 1/4 load of regular darks...and can make 3/4 or a full load by roaming the house.  The...boom..that's efficiency.  People then round up their stuff and stow it.

My wife's version would work if there was consistent discipline in other areas.

Best,

FF

[zachira]

There can be food issues with BPD and PDs in general. Parents can't force their child to eat. When a parent tries to control food intake, some children will refuse to eat, and others will respond by trying to eat everything they can when there is food around.

[Notwendy]

I understand the need to economize and fill a washer before using, but how can you do this if your wife only wants you to wash your own clothes and nobody else's? Although the day/time divisions might not work for a large family, something has to give.

Perhaps you can have your day and time, and your wife can have the rest of the week. You only wash your stuff. Maybe you need twice a week, shorter times.

This could be a battleground for the whole summer. Honestly, maybe I'm a wimp but I'd trade the laundry issue for some peace- knowing it is only for the summer. My wash, my time- then leave me alone.

Let your wife experience the consequences. You do a lot that she doesn't realize. It may take a couple of weeks of kid's stuff getting stinky in the basket before she realizes her way may not be the best way.

I get this as when the kids were little we ran the washer all the time. Kids make a mess and that was the only way to keep up with it. You've got the method that works for you  and your family but it isn't the only way to do laundry. Natural consequences might be a better way to go than a summer full of control arguments.

[formflier]

This could be a battleground for the whole summer. Honestly, maybe I'm a wimp but I'd trade the laundry issue for some peace- knowing it is only for the summer. My wash, my time- then leave me alone.

Let your wife experience the consequences. You do a lot that she doesn't realize. It may take a couple of weeks of kid's stuff getting stinky in the basket before she realizes her way may not be the best way.

 

Yeah...natural consequences experience by her is all well and good.

Her sharing those via rage with everyone else...well that's boundary time.

Here is where my head is now.  I'm certainly not going to get in a physical struggle over this, but I'm also not going to go along with something imposed on me...vice a discussion and compromise.

So...if I think it needs washing...I'll wash it.  If she thinks it needs washing..wash it.

If she would like to discuss and figure out a compromise that works for both...fine.

Best,

FF