Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
March 29, 2024, 10:32:17 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
Survey: How do you compare?
Adult Children Sensitivity
67% are highly sensitive
Romantic Break-ups
73% have five or more recycles
Physical Hitting
66% of members were hit
Depression Test
61% of members are moderate-severe
108
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: She's making the kids feel guilty. Best way to help them?  (Read 560 times)
mart555
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 340


« on: June 20, 2019, 12:35:19 PM »

The story:
I've been mainly living alone with the kids since announcing my divorce 6 months ago.  After some mental hospital stays, and an assault, a no contact order was put in place so she cannot come back home.  Since the no contact, she's been seeing the kids two evenings per week and one afternoon on the week-end.  The kids (10 and 14) have seen her through her best and worst behavior which includes suicide threats in front of them (including christmas eve), hearing her having a borderline rage episode in the house, walking on eggshells when with her, ...  of course, I'm the one to blame for all of this and she does not refrain from involving the kids (ie: "I spent 36 hours in jail because of your father, your father owes me money and doesn't pay, your father complained to his lawyer, ..").  It never stops.

The problem:
She is so manipulative and makes the kids feel guilty by writing them messages such as:
- "Thank you for ignoring me and not writing to me every day like you should.  You make me feel important and appreciated"
- "I am useless and you would be better off with just your dad. You don't love me"
- "Let me know if you think that you would like to visit me.  Otherwise I understand that you don't want to see me or spend time with me"

What's the best way to handle these messages?  Some of them come a few hours after telling the kids that they are liars or that they are being manipulated by me. And since there is a no contact order with me, my oldest one is on the receiving end of a lot of nasty comments.

I don't feel like pressuring the kids to reply, they tend to ignore her messages because they are getting fed up of this but I know that it affects them.  The youngest one this morning said that he should write to her more to make her feel better... but we all know how this won't change anything.  And when she is having a victimization episode, it's a drag because if they start to text her, it goes downhill fast and they cannot stop answering otherwise she gets angry. 

Any thoughts on how to deal with that? They do see a therapist that helped them think about themselves and what to do when she involves them in divorce stuff (ie: say "mom, we're here to have fun not talk about that stuff"). 

We tried the "you're not doing too good these days so we'll chat more when you'll be in good shape" which triggered a "How do you know how I feel?" anger.   Ignoring the messages doesn't seem to help the kids because they feel guilty.  And if they just reply with a single message to avoid the back and forth drama, they get 10 messages saying "why did you stop replying? that's impolite".  At one point they were being harassed by her, ~30 xbox chat request in ~10 minutes for my youngest one and something like 20 text messages in the same amount of time for my oldest one saying "ANSWER ME", with additional degrading comments thrown in there ("little baby", "idiot", "you're like your dad", ..).

I'm a bit at a loss.. Any recommendations?
Logged

mart555
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 340


« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2019, 12:53:38 PM »

Darn.  I ended up clicking excerpt instead of modify. Disregard.
Logged

worriedStepmom
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 1157


« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2019, 01:01:52 PM »

My SD has worked really hard with her therapist to identify her boundaries.  She is getting better at putting her mom in place when this kind of bad behavior starts.   When the pressure gets too much, SD hides her phone somewhere and ignores it for the rest of the day. 

SD and her therapist are also working on identifying her core values.  H and I have spent a lot of time talking to her about the fact that other people's emotions aren't our issue.   If your actions align with your core values, then other people's reactions are their issue, not yours.  That may lead to consequences (e.g., a friend might drop you), but you can't run your life according to other people's values or perceptions.

As part of that, I've also told SD point-blank that none of her mom's crazy is about SD.  mom might use SD's name and claim to be acting out of SD's interests, but when she gets in a dysregulated state, it's all about mom and mom's feelings.  Her disorder prevents her from being able to acknowledge anyone else's perceptions or feelings.

In your shoes, I'd have no problem blocking mom from the xbox live contacts and implementing limits on what times/days she is allowed to contact the kids.

Logged
worriedStepmom
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 1157


« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2019, 01:03:46 PM »

Also, if she is verbally abusive to the children on the phone, I just might block her permanently from texting them unless your court order specifies otherwise or your lawyer tells you not to.  That kind of name-calling IS abuse, and as the parent in charge, you should be able to stop it.
Logged
mart555
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 340


« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2019, 01:56:46 PM »

Also, if she is verbally abusive to the children on the phone, I just might block her permanently from texting them unless your court order specifies otherwise or your lawyer tells you not to.  That kind of name-calling IS abuse, and as the parent in charge, you should be able to stop it.

That's the problem... there is no court order.   I've filed, but it will take a long time before things get resolved. First court appearance is in a month, the "case conference" where things are discussed with the judge (ie: nothing happens besides the judge giving his opinion and setting another meeting or requesting paperwork if needed). In the meantime, I have the kids because of the no contact order, and somehow managed to keep the limited visitation schedule we had unofficially. 

I agree, this is abuse.  Name calling hasn't happened for a few weeks..  but my lawyer threatened her lawyer via expensive letter saying that if she was involving the kids in that mess communications would be cut.   But the mean things she said on the phone to our son last time make me shiver just thinking about it. 

I guess I'll keep working on boundaries and see what my lawyer says.   But yes, I have to protect the kids.  And today her lawyer emailed mine asking for 50-50 this summer...  gosh.  I'll fight tooth and nail against this. 

Logged

GaGrl
Ambassador
********
Online Online

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 5722



« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2019, 02:04:56 PM »

The text messages are abusive. They need to be stopped.

With documentation of those messages, can you talk to your lawyer about extending the protection order to the children?
Logged


"...what's past is prologue; what to come,
In yours and my discharge."
livednlearned
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Family other
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 12731



« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2019, 03:15:47 PM »

You have a strong position. I would coast on that momentum, and rather than ask permission, beg forgiveness.

"Your honor, I found the messages to be emotionally and psychologically abusive -- I'm learning as I go here, trying to keep my kids safe. If it was a mistake to block messages, please help me make the right decision about what I can do in these situations. The kids are having a hard time with the name calling and sarcasm, the devaluation, the empty threats, the bullying. We were in legal limbo and I made the decision to err on the side of protecting them and hope we can figure out a way to have a safe and age appropriate way for them to communicate with their mom."

Something like that?

My ex would write garbage to our son and I said, When people say mean things to me I block them. If you need my permission to do that, you have it. You deserve to be treated with respect. If you have specific questions about how to handle the emotions that will come up when you block someone like your dad, let's make sure you have an opportunity to talk about it with T so you aren't on your own trying to navigate this. And of course, you can always talk to me, tho I know that can feel complicated."
Logged

Breathe.
mart555
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 340


« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2019, 07:48:56 AM »

Thanks.  Based on your comment, something definitely needs to be done.  It's difficult sometimes for me to realize how bad it is because I've been in there for so long.   

I have offered to the kids my "message filtering services" where I'll check their messages first and they signed up and believe it will help them:  if their mom seems "ok" I'll let them know and they can reply.  If not, I simply ignore them.   I'll work with my lawyer in the background to be sure that the legal aspect is covered but these messages need to stop, they are not good for the kids.  I guess she needs a public now that her circle of friend has pretty much no one in there. 

I still cannot believe she can harass her own kids

Logged

livednlearned
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Family other
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 12731



« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2019, 09:00:51 AM »

How did they respond when you suggested that solution?

I'm curious how it will work ... so mom texts them, they ignore it, you read it and tell them not to worry?

What if they see that there are dozens of texts from her? Will that be stressful for them?
Logged

Breathe.
MeandThee29
******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 977


« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2019, 09:18:37 AM »


I still cannot believe she can harass her own kids


Believe it. You can only shield them so far though. Even at their young age, they need help understanding their feelings and what healthy boundaries and relationships are. It can get so very confusing.

Mine are older, but somehow they get it. I did shield them some, and they withdrew a lot themselves, knowing in their heart of hearts that things weren't right. That protected them.
Logged
mart555
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 340


« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2019, 09:21:59 AM »

My oldest one said "yes, I think that it would help" because he frequently ends up feeling like crap / rejected by his mom.  He said "she calls me a liar" so it does hurt him but he understands that it's the BPD so doesn't take it too personal.

The youngest one is used to simply swiping her messages and will write once in a while.  

What I've done is simply put a "snooze notification" in google hangouts and I'll monitor the messages via their gmail account in the web browser.   They may end up seeing her messages when they reply but they are at a point where they say "oh she wasn't feeling good" and move on.  I guess it shows the number of troubling messages they received over the last few months.  

Not the perfect solution but the only one I see until my lawyer suggests something else.  Last night she messaged the kids saying "I cannot see you because daddy's lawyer is not responding to my lawyer. Good night, I love you! " (I got my lawyer's email yesterday so yeah, it's true but her lawyer takes 2 weeks every time..).  So she's still dragging the kids in this even though she is not saying mean things to them.   Not sure how "bad" this is considered but I don't think that they should even have to hear the word "lawyer" and if she tells them that via message, I fear what she tells them in person.
Logged

worriedStepmom
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 1157


« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2019, 09:45:38 AM »

He said "she calls me a liar" so it does hurt him but he understands that it's the BPD so doesn't take it too personal.

He might say this, but I would bet he doesn't really believe it.  My SD11 is working on this concept and she can put a great face on it for a while, but it eats away at her.  She's a kid - if your parent has such a low opinion of you, you are going to internalize a lot of that.

Excerpt
Not the perfect solution but the only one I see until my lawyer suggests something else.  Last night she messaged the kids saying "I cannot see you because daddy's lawyer is not responding to my lawyer. Good night, I love you! "
This is a form of parental alienation.  My SD's mom uses this kind of language all the time. "Daddy won't let me do X." / "I want to do Y but daddy won't respond" / "Daddy won't let me see you" (because the custody papers say it isn't your time, crazy lady).

SD's therapist had her list the top 3 behaviors that she wanted her mom to stop, and this was #1.

The kids' therapists need to know about all of these comments (the alienation and the namecallilng and pressure), and they should also be evidence in your custody motions.  She isn't safe to be around the kids.
Logged
ForeverDad
Retired Staff
*
Online Online

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: separated 2005 then divorced
Posts: 18074


You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2019, 02:06:24 PM »

If the children aren't in therapy, then now is a good time to start.  Besides helping the children, it documents with professionals that you have your priorities correct - the children - and the issues with the other parent's behaviors with the children.

You have a strong position. I would coast on that momentum, and rather than ask permission, beg forgiveness.

Or... Rather than wait for permission that may never come, beg forgiveness by being appropriately proactive.

In most divorce cases the court is very reluctant to call it like it is and quick to overlook a lot of conflict, obstruction, etc.  It often updates order with small or minimal fixes.  Since you currently have virtually all the parenting and professionals see substantive issues with the other parent, you probably can use the "take charge" parenting style and court will not oppose it.  Mother may get more time, eventually, but you have Decision Making authority and likely that won't be taken from you.  (So be sure not to 'Gift' it away with some noble hopes to be seen as super fair and super nice.  It would be both unwise and wouldn't earn any additional points with the court and associated professionals.
Logged

maxsterling
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic Partner
Relationship status: living together, engaged
Posts: 2772



« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2019, 02:21:59 PM »

I can't comment much on your situation, but reading your post brought tears to my eyes.  This is exactly the situation I expect in my life.   Sounds nearly exactly like my W's behavior. 

I hate the thought of getting protective orders, etc, to keep kids away from their own mom.  But in your case (and I presume mine) that sounds likely.  It's just sad. 
Logged

mart555
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 340


« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2019, 09:48:20 PM »

Guys, you were all right. These comments were worrisome.  My kid's psychologist pretty much freaked out when she read the last few messages and my lawyer was mad.  These messages were sent to my ex-wife's lawyer whom we're sure isn't fully aware of the situation so this should hopefully be dealt with promptly on Monday...  it's not the first warning.  I, unfortunately, had not realized how bad they were since I was immune to reading vile messages due to my extensive training during the last few months...

I filter communications in the meantime and will deal with the consequences later if there are any.   The kids don't even want to go visit her because they are afraid of what she will say. It's really sad

WorriedStepMom:
Wow. You were right. I had a chat with my son and yes, her comments really hurt him.  They make him feel bad. Now I know. I'll deal with it.

Forever dad:
Yes they are in therapy. It helps, along with the fact that they see their mom "only" 3 times during the week but 4 hours each time.. at least I offer a sane environment at home

Maxsterling: It's sad. Really sad.  I will fight tooth and nail to save the kids from this mess but I regret not having done that sooner.  In hindsight, I should have planned things properly and document everything BEFORE announcing that I wanted out.  Not for years, but at least a few weeks or maybe a month or two. 

Logged

PeteWitsend
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 854


« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2019, 09:26:15 AM »

Mart - it may be helpful to get the court to order that communications have to be through a specific medium.

one of the few smart moves my attorney made was to suggest that all communications (other than immediate notes, like "hey I'm outside to pick up the kids") be made through "Our Family Wizard" a paid subscription service the court can access and read on their own.  It was $100 per person, per year, but I think it's been worth it.  It keeps XW somewhat cordial, since she knows her communications could be under scrutiny if we go back to court.
Logged
worriedStepmom
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 1157


« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2019, 09:31:12 AM »

You did the right thing.  You showed the messages to the people who can help - the psychologist and the lawyer.  It's not going to be resolved this week, because mom isn't capable of controlling herself.  Knowing this will help you to make your plan on how to protect the children.

I, unfortunately, had not realized how bad they were since I was immune to reading vile messages due to my extensive training during the last few months...

In my experience with my husband, I don't think this is uncommon.   Because there is so much crazy, it resets your ability to determine what is normal or not. H is used to the crazy. It doesn't affect him that much, so he ignores it.  He assumes that SD12 reacts the same way.  

He also will sometimes push a decision onto SD12 that should not be made by a child, because either a) his ex has parentified SD to the point that it seems "normal" that SD has a say or b) because his ex has ratcheted up the crazy enough that he doesn't want to deal with it anymore - and he assumes that she is calmer with SD.  That means H is ALSO parentifying SD, even though that isn't his intent.

H has me to pull the FOG away and stand up for SD.  Make sure that you have your village to help you see through the FOG.  That includes us, the kids' therapists, and any close family or friends whom you trust to hear most or all of the details and give you sound perspectives.
Logged
GaGrl
Ambassador
********
Online Online

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 5722



« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2019, 09:44:57 AM »

I absolutely agree. When DH and I married, he was so ensured to his ex's craziness that he had lost touch with what normal families look like, act like, interact -- what's OK, what is outside boundaries, when he and the adult children were under FOG.I

We can help -- it's good to get regular feedback on FOG.
Logged


"...what's past is prologue; what to come,
In yours and my discharge."
mart555
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 340


« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2019, 09:50:21 AM »

My lawyer ended up writing a stern letter to her lawyer along with some "samples" of emails she had sent.  That letter was definitely forwarded to her because the kids received message such as:
- I'll see you Monday!
- I can see you Monday but don't have a car anymore (as part of the letter, she was told that she can either start paying for it or give it back to me)
- Sorry the visits have been canceled for a little while
- I will deactivate my emails and text messages, if you ever want to talk to me, you'll have to call me on my cell because I won't write to you.  
- Followed 30 minutes later by an email that said "I'll confirm the visit tomorrow morning as soon as I know"
- And email this morning saying "I'll pick you up at 1! can't wait to see you"

Good old BPD.  It's no wonder the kids are having a difficult time, there's no consistency.

As usual, I had to deal with upset kids since they are stressed about the visit.  My youngest one even lashed on us, telling his big brother "what is happening to mom is all because of you", and did the same to me.  He calmed down 30 minutes later and said that he was sorry, that he said that because he was under too much stress.  That night he asked me "are we seeing mom tomorrow?" followed by "don't tell me. I don't want to know tonight".  Heart-wrenching to say the least.  And my oldest one who was crying that afternoon because of what his brother had told him.  We spoke and resolved it.   

On the bright side, I'm hoping that this puts an end to the troubling messages... but somehow I don't think that she'll restrain verbally.   She is causing way more harm than good and I'm that deals with the mess she leaves behind.   


« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 09:56:49 AM by mart555 » Logged

mart555
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 340


« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2019, 10:55:51 AM »

So far so good..   after telling the kids that she was blocking them from emails and text messages, she started email them the next day.  All communication seems "clean" although limited and my oldest is just waiting for the next storm even though visits are good.  The key is to keep them short but mom doesn't realise that..
Logged

worriedStepmom
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Posts: 1157


« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2019, 05:49:53 PM »

my oldest is just waiting for the next storm even though visits are good.  The key is to keep them short but mom doesn't realise that..

SD12 said something almost exactly like this a few days ago. 

Reading your story, and comparing that to what has gone on in our household, has been very helpful.  THANK YOU.  We've finally realized that putting very strict limits on her mom helps SD.  SD - and your kids - want the relationship, but they can't handle the inconsistency and the meanness.

We told SD she gets 2 half-hour phone calls per week with her mom.  We blocked her mom on SD's phone - there will be absolutely no more text messages, period.  SD was actually happy about this.  They've had their two phone calls this week, and it's gone very well.  You might want to consider something similar - block mom from texting completely, in the hopes that she gets it together a little bit for a phone call. 
Logged
mart555
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 340


« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2019, 09:33:05 AM »

You might want to consider something similar - block mom from texting completely, in the hopes that she gets it together a little bit for a phone call. 

I have no control over what she says on the phone... at least if it's written I have proof.  I don't have official custody and am early in the process of trying to get it so I'm really careful.  If I screw up, my kids will "pay" for it for a long time so I'm trying to play it safe as much as possible. 
Logged

Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!