SD13 announced desired pronoun change

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Continued from https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=336239.0

So at dinner last night (just DH, me, & SD13), SD13 announced that she has changed her pronouns and wants to be called "he/him".

(Before getting much deeper into this, if anyone has questions about why -- given the topic -- I'm still saying she/SD13, please keep reading, and/or post a reply. Happy to dialog with you)

For me, this wasn't entirely a surprise. We spent time with a family of the kids' school friends last weekend, and while the mom and I were hanging out, she mentioned "So my kids tell me that SD13 goes by he/him at school... has she talked to you about this?" That was the first I'd heard (besides the conversation with SD13 & DH a month or so ago). Plus, after last month's conversation, ya know. But no heads up from Mom.

I tried to just be open and asked her to tell me more.  She was kind of tightly wound and "prickly" but kept going. Interestingly, she said she didn't want hormones right now as they could mess you up and weren't reversible, but she wanted to try the pronoun change because (and here she kind of caught herself) she could go back if she wanted to. I mentioned that it sounded like she had been thinking about this for a while.

DH asked her about what masculine things she identified with, and what feminine things she didn't. Again, as with last time, it was very outward-focused -- she likes playing guy sports, doing activities with guys, doesn't like dresses/makeup/jewelry/shopping/pink. So, validated that. She did add in masculine traits "I'm arrogant" kind of jokingly, so I called her on it: "So, isn't that a stereotype about men?" and she did backtrack. I think I mentioned in passing that it is interesting that some people give weight to stereotypes as they try to identify themselves contra that stereotype. But left most of that for later.

DH and I both shared that we were glad she could talk to us about this, it was really great information, and (for me) I would probably think about what to do for a bit, because I wanted to think about my values and think about the best way to be loving to her. Later as things eased up, DH added that sometimes the most loving thing to do for someone is not to give them what they say they want, so kells76 was probably thinking through that.

DH said he'd be fine with not saying she/her, and wanted to know what SD13 thought if he just used her name, and not she/her, but not he/him. She did get torqued out over that, so I tried digging a little deeper on what that difference was for her. For her it was "it's different because when you just don't use someone's pronouns, you could call them anything, but when they say their pronouns, that is a specific thing they're asking for".

She did talk about how "that's how she feels inside", too. It's just interesting (and I suppose very age appropriate, in a way) that she really struggled to articulate the inner feeling, but could keep going for a long time about the external signifiers.

There was a lot more but that is the gist of the ostensible topic of the conversation. There were a LOT of tacit/unspoken/unnoticed things SD13 brought up, though.

So, first, she told us that we were the last people she told, because she was worried about how it'd go. She said "everyone else" was supportive, she had already told the school and doctors, and she wasn't sure about us. We validated that we were glad she felt like she could tell us, and this just must have been the right time. Again she brought up that "she'd heard stories about people" getting kicked out, but even more, she was worried that we would "think Mom was raising her wrong" and go to court (to do what wasn't clear). I think we just validated again that it is really sad to hear about kids getting kicked out, and we would never do that.

Over and over, through this whole conversation, she would mention almost in passing things like kells76 never signed up for this [difficulty], she didn't want to be a burden to us, it's not that it's hard for her to be a boy but she thought it'd be hard for us... that deep feeling of responsibility for how we felt. That is pretty worrisome to me.

Also, Mom has said NOTHING to us. That really upsets me. This is kind of big for SD13, she's feeling sick and worried, and you're doing NOTHING to work together with DH to help her? No "heads up, you may need to be extra supportive"? What also gets me is something that seems small but is just the situation in a nutshell. In the last thread I talked about how one of the things SD13 wanted was swim trunks (instead of a swimsuit). When we were going to hang out with this other family last weekend, the kids needed swim gear, and SD13 didn't have any. So, we went thrifting and I got her trunks and a surf top. When we dropped the kids off with Mom a couple days later, SD13 excitedly told Mom, "I got swim trunks!" It's like, OK, Mom, you want to be supportive? You couldn't even do that for her? And maybe that's underpinning this whole situation, where SD13 could be telling us any number of things (I'm a teen mom, I'm voting Republican, I'm changing my name to a semicolon, I'm taking a vow of silence, etc), and what Mom is all about is leveraging this important thing as power over DH by not telling him ANYTHING about what's going on.

Lots more to process. Long story short we all ended with hugs and with reassuring SD13 that our love for her was unconditional, and that that meant that even though we might disagree on values and beliefs, we didn't have to agree to love her, and she didn't have to profess any of our values or beliefs for us to always love her.

[kells76]

Continued from https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=336239.0

So at dinner last night (just DH, me, & SD13), SD13 announced that she has changed her pronouns and wants to be called "he/him".

(Before getting much deeper into this, if anyone has questions about why -- given the topic -- I'm still saying she/SD13, please keep reading, and/or post a reply. Happy to dialog with you)

For me, this wasn't entirely a surprise. We spent time with a family of the kids' school friends last weekend, and while the mom and I were hanging out, she mentioned "So my kids tell me that SD13 goes by he/him at school... has she talked to you about this?" That was the first I'd heard (besides the conversation with SD13 & DH a month or so ago). Plus, after last month's conversation, ya know. But no heads up from Mom.

I tried to just be open and asked her to tell me more.  She was kind of tightly wound and "prickly" but kept going. Interestingly, she said she didn't want hormones right now as they could mess you up and weren't reversible, but she wanted to try the pronoun change because (and here she kind of caught herself) she could go back if she wanted to. I mentioned that it sounded like she had been thinking about this for a while.

DH asked her about what masculine things she identified with, and what feminine things she didn't. Again, as with last time, it was very outward-focused -- she likes playing guy sports, doing activities with guys, doesn't like dresses/makeup/jewelry/shopping/pink. So, validated that. She did add in masculine traits "I'm arrogant" kind of jokingly, so I called her on it: "So, isn't that a stereotype about men?" and she did backtrack. I think I mentioned in passing that it is interesting that some people give weight to stereotypes as they try to identify themselves contra that stereotype. But left most of that for later.

DH and I both shared that we were glad she could talk to us about this, it was really great information, and (for me) I would probably think about what to do for a bit, because I wanted to think about my values and think about the best way to be loving to her. Later as things eased up, DH added that sometimes the most loving thing to do for someone is not to give them what they say they want, so kells76 was probably thinking through that.

DH said he'd be fine with not saying she/her, and wanted to know what SD13 thought if he just used her name, and not she/her, but not he/him. She did get torqued out over that, so I tried digging a little deeper on what that difference was for her. For her it was "it's different because when you just don't use someone's pronouns, you could call them anything, but when they say their pronouns, that is a specific thing they're asking for".

She did talk about how "that's how she feels inside", too. It's just interesting (and I suppose very age appropriate, in a way) that she really struggled to articulate the inner feeling, but could keep going for a long time about the external signifiers.

There was a lot more but that is the gist of the ostensible topic of the conversation. There were a LOT of tacit/unspoken/unnoticed things SD13 brought up, though.

So, first, she told us that we were the last people she told, because she was worried about how it'd go. She said "everyone else" was supportive, she had already told the school and doctors, and she wasn't sure about us. We validated that we were glad she felt like she could tell us, and this just must have been the right time. Again she brought up that "she'd heard stories about people" getting kicked out, but even more, she was worried that we would "think Mom was raising her wrong" and go to court (to do what wasn't clear). I think we just validated again that it is really sad to hear about kids getting kicked out, and we would never do that.

Over and over, through this whole conversation, she would mention almost in passing things like kells76 never signed up for this [difficulty], she didn't want to be a burden to us, it's not that it's hard for her to be a boy but she thought it'd be hard for us... that deep feeling of responsibility for how we felt. That is pretty worrisome to me.

Also, Mom has said NOTHING to us. That really upsets me. This is kind of big for SD13, she's feeling sick and worried, and you're doing NOTHING to work together with DH to help her? No "heads up, you may need to be extra supportive"? What also gets me is something that seems small but is just the situation in a nutshell. In the last thread I talked about how one of the things SD13 wanted was swim trunks (instead of a swimsuit). When we were going to hang out with this other family last weekend, the kids needed swim gear, and SD13 didn't have any. So, we went thrifting and I got her trunks and a surf top. When we dropped the kids off with Mom a couple days later, SD13 excitedly told Mom, "I got swim trunks!" It's like, OK, Mom, you want to be supportive? You couldn't even do that for her? And maybe that's underpinning this whole situation, where SD13 could be telling us any number of things (I'm a teen mom, I'm voting Republican, I'm changing my name to a semicolon, I'm taking a vow of silence, etc), and what Mom is all about is leveraging this important thing as power over DH by not telling him ANYTHING about what's going on.

Lots more to process. Long story short we all ended with hugs and with reassuring SD13 that our love for her was unconditional, and that that meant that even though we might disagree on values and beliefs, we didn't have to agree to love her, and she didn't have to profess any of our values or beliefs for us to always love her.

[kells76]

IDK. There's just so much tangled up here. It's one of those situations that I suspect is about a LOT more than being a boy, though I do think that is the likely the best interpretation SD13 has right now.

DH had asked her what she wanted from changing pronouns (I.e. what she thought it would do for her). She brought up her belief that "in order to be a whole person, what's on the inside and outside should match". She sees the pronoun change as helping her with that goal. I reflected back to her that the assertion I thought I heard behind it was that to be "whole", everything on the inside should match the outside. She did quickly see the limitations -- "sometimes I cuss people out in my head and that shouldn't be on the outside" -- but we didn't go down the road of "so how do people decide what from inside should match outside" or of "is it possible for anyone to be a whole person".

DH emphasized at the end that what he wants the most for her is that she care about what is real and true, that he recognizes that how she is feeling is real for her, and that that's part of his struggle -- one of his values/beliefs is that language means something real, and pronouns reflect a biological reality. He said its tough for him because he sees that belief running up against SD13's beliefs and so he is in the middle of a challenge for how to negotiate this -- how to be committed to his values and love her at the same time. That seemed to make sense to her.

Where I struggle is that I had an eating disorder as a teen. I remember what it's like to have a fixed and firm belief about how my outer body and inner feelings should correlate -- and it was a belief ungrounded in reality and driven by the narrative that what I felt inside about who I was should dominate. I'm truly struggling with the pronoun request because it tracks so much for me to the request of "Other people, I need you to validate my identity from the outside by participating in my emotional reality".

On the flip side, I let SD13 know that if there were clothes she no longer wanted to wear, we could donate them and get stuff she liked. If she only wanted to do "guy" activities that was fine as long as that's what she genuinely wanted. Redecorating room = great.  Hoping to show support in those ways. I'm ok with really trying not to use she/her, too.

But underneath it all SD13 really, really wants to feel like she belongs, I think. I do think her feeling of not being "her"/something not feeling right about her identy is absolutely real. I think the divorce & alienation have had a profound effect on her sense of attachment & security & self. I really hope that emphasizing that we will love her unconditionally even if we have different beliefs will sink in and maybe show her that she can "rock the boat" at our house without losing us. I wonder if it is more tenuous at Mom's.

Still lots to process. Feedback welcome.

[worriedStepmom]

Are you and your husband considering going to a support meeting for parents of trans kids, or have you talked to her psychologist about this?

It sounds to me that you are trying your very best to be loving and supportive, and it comes across very clear in your writing that you will always love her/him no matter what.  However, some of the language that you have used (and the direction of some of the discussions themselves) can still be very invalidating to a kid going through a transition.  That may be part of why (s)he waited to tell the two of you until last.

This is a very very very difficult situation, and I understand your fears that maybe this is just a phase or just a way to find an identity given the turmoil of living with her mom.  It may be helpful to get more information, both on gender dysphoria itself and on the type of support trans people want/need.

[kells76]

Are you and your husband considering going to a support meeting for parents of trans kids

I have started thinking about this.

have you talked to her psychologist about this?

After first conversation, DH was "open" to talking to her C again. After this one he said he would make the appointment.

Again, I think the top issue that I'm angry about is how Mom commodifies SD13's distress. This has been the pattern for many years. Originally it was about "SD13 doesn't want to see you" so Mom got to be the "supportive" parent who said "What can I do? I can't FORCE her to go. I'm just being warm and supportive of her true feelings". So it looked like caring but instead it was placing SD13 at the top of the skewed family system triangle with Mom in alliance with her against DH. SD13's distress was real and the tension in her relationship with DH was real but Mom made these superficial moves that "monetized" her real grief and pain into Mom's power.

It could be about anything. It was about SD13 getting her period, too. No, Mom wasn't going to share that info with us so that we could also be supportive of SD13 at our house. Mom was going to hoard that info so that she could be the only supportive parent, under the guise of "respecting SD13's wishes". Like I said earlier, it's less the content of these conversations (if you understand what I mean -- it's not that the content is not important) than the structure of what's going on that gets me. So if SD13 said she wanted to, IDK, go out alone with 19 year old boys, and was afraid to tell us, but had already told Mom who was supportive, it would be the same deal. We are falling back into the old communication structure of being completely shut out and set up to not be able to support SD13 effectively. And I'm pretty upset about how it places SD13 in the middle once again.

some of the language that you have used (and the direction of some of the discussions themselves) can still be very invalidating to a kid going through a transition.  That may be part of why (s)he waited to tell the two of you until last.

Yes, it is a struggle. That is 110% the truth. The plan is that if the topic comes up again this weekend, DH and I stick to the validation side of things -- that our love is unconditional, and that we don't have to have (or pretend to have) the same values or beliefs in order to love each other. That we're proud of SD13 for being able to tell us and that we really hope that she doesn't feel like she has to pretend to not feel like a boy when she's with us.

I know that again, some of the language I'm using in my posts may seem... invalidating to SD13. This is where I'm at in my process so this is what is real in my life right now. I feel like I'm in a similar spot as Mutt was a few months ago, if you guys recall his posts. SD13 isn't on this forum and I'm using "SD13" as a placeholder for SD13's name, which is how I'd try to refer to her (I know) IRL. I am working through how to be committed to my values and beliefs (about biology, language, and reality) and love SD13 at the same time. I haven't landed on an answer yet.

[Skip]

This is an interesting read.

My first reaction is "how much of this is real" and "how much is a pop-culture influence that will pass"?

I remember reading studies some years back about homosexuality, and the studies concluded homosexuality is hard wired in some individuals and that for others, it's a social identity choice - commonly people who struggle to fit it and finding acceptance in this minority group which is, generally, very inclusive and supportive of each other.

Transgender awareness/rights are a hot topics these days. I can see a 13 year old not knowing exactly how to process everything that is being said in school/media.

Heck, I don't know how to process it it myself.



Last time I saw this sign, I picked the the option on the right which, in my local store means, unoccupied and clean.    (kidding)

The Williams Institute, estimated that 0.6% of U.S. adults identify as transgender.

If I was in your situation, I think I would be looking for a neutral place to be - not encouraging, not discouraging, not encouraging by being discouraging. How does that translate to action, not sure.

How often does you daughter hear you use he/she when referring to her? Not often. You could just agree and refer to her as your child (not son or daughter) and see how this develops. You already quizzed her and know the depth of her feelings.

Teachers are faced with this all the time. Jordon Peterson speaks about the dilemma  as a teacher and the need to be respectful and not be manipulated.

I'm interested to see what others say.

[Skip]

Again, I think the top issue that I'm angry about is how Mom commodifies SD13's distress. This has been the pattern for many years. Originally it was about "SD13 doesn't want to see you" so Mom got to be the "supportive" parent who said "What can I do? I can't FORCE her to go. I'm just being warm and supportive of her true feelings".

Ugh.

[kells76]

Thank you guys for weighing in.

WSM, I know that you and I come at this issue from different perspectives, but I also know that underneath it all we are both stepmoms who want our stepkids to be healthy, to have true support, and to be able to see what's real about people and life. So it does mean a lot to me that you give your feedback and perspective. Ultimately I feel that we are together on wanting good for our stepkids even as the way it looks may differ. Thank you  

Skip, thanks for stopping by on this one.

how much of this is real

I 110% believe that SD13 truly feels this way. I don't think "SD13 doesn't REALLY feel like a boy". I think she is doing the absolute best she can to interpret the feelings she is having, and that is the best conclusion she has reached.

how much is a pop-culture influence that will pass

It seems like at 13, the brain is at this crossroads -- for so much of younger life it was pretty heavily dependent on adult brains for structure and interpretation of the world (i.e. babies think they're the same being as mom, IIRC, and I think in attachment theory it's pretty accepted that kids reference adult responses in emotionally ambiguous situations). But 13YO brains are starting to develop in adult ways. So they're at this stage where external adult brain influence is the lowest it's ever been but their own adult brain structure isn't at a comparably high level. It makes a lot of sense to me that 13YO's reach out laterally to peers for structure and support. There are a lot of bigger, weightier issues that they can start to process, but with much less adult brain support than ever before. So peer culture is naturally a source for trying to interpret their thoughts and feelings.

I suspect (though it may be controversial) that the feelings underlying non-genetic trans experiences are feelings that many people have had throughout history, though the dominant cultural interpretation of those feelings has changed over time. Feeling like there is a disconnect between self and body can be wrenching, consuming, and inescapable. It feels really wrong and I deeply empathize with that experience. Nobody wants to feel like their body is wrong.

Not sure where to go with that at this point besides agreeing that there are many influences at play in SD13's experience right now.

Heck, I don't know how to process it it myself.

Join the club

I think I would be looking for a neutral place to be - not encouraging, not discouraging, not encouraging by being discouraging

Hoping that supporting clothing changes, supporting activities, not using she/her will be a start. What it would mean for DH & my's values for actively using he/him is a tough one. Again, plan is to hopefully validate that SD13 doesn't have to pretend to agree with us in order for us to love SD13 no matter what. Putting discussion of DH/my values on back burner for now as it might come across as "about us" and not "about SD13".

How often does you daughter hear you use he/she when referring to her? Not often. You could just agree and refer to her as your child (not son or daughter) and see how this develops

I've already been using "our 13-year-old" even before these conversations, as I don't want to play the game that Stepdad does of saying "I have 2 kids". Which is a whole 'nother issue  

the need to be respectful and not be manipulated

Yeah, a big concern of mine is not elevating SD13 in the family hierarchy in an inappropriate way once again. It would happen to be about this issue at this point, but like I've emphasized, my overarching concern is the structure of interactions between our house & Mom's house. I'm working through whether going to using he/him would be overempowering to SD13, once again placing her in the driver's seat of what should be starting as a parent-to-parent conversation. Because this Mom-DH conversation didn't happen ahead of time I am concerned about the power dynamics. It just happens to be wound up in a very, very sensitive topic.

[kells76]

Again, I think the top issue that I'm angry about is how Mom commodifies SD13's distress. This has been the pattern for many years. Originally it was about "SD13 doesn't want to see you" so Mom got to be the "supportive" parent who said "What can I do? I can't FORCE her to go. I'm just being warm and supportive of her true feelings".

Ugh.

Yes, I suspect this is and has been classic Childress-type alienation at play -- the "selective incompetence".

[kells76]

I think this is the dynamic that Childress details that I'm concerned about:

The   passive   fostering   of   the   triangulation   is   typically   always   a   part   of   the   pathogenic   
parenting   involved   in   parental   alienation   processes,   whereby   the   allied   parent   allows   the   
child   (encourages   the   child)   to   report   on   negative   events   or   relationship   interactions   the   
child   has   with   the   other   parent,2   which   allows   the   allied   parent   to   then   make   displays   of   
concern,   condemnation,   and   anger   over   the   parenting   or   personhood   of   the   other   parent.      
Once   this   interpersonal   process   between   the   child   and   the   allied   parent   begins,   the   child   
comes   to   recognize   his   or   her   role   in   maintaining   this   shared   social   experience   with   the   
allied   parent,   and   this   “bashing”   of   the   other   parent   becomes   a   valued   source   of   bonding   
with   the   allied   parent,   and   elevates   the   child   in   the   family   hierarchy   so   that   the   child   is   
allowed,   supported,   and   encouraged   to   judge   the   adequacy   of   the   other   parent

from www.drcachildress.org/asp/admin/getFile.asp?RID=52&TID=6&FN=pdf

It is a good sign that SD13 can be open with us about her concerns about us. Hoping to keep that channel open. She isn't defending Mom to us or going back to the "you're not my family" comments to DH, but I'm concerned that the old brain structure of "report to Mom how DH is kind of insensitive" = "support and warmth from Mom that I wouldn't otherwise get" will come back.

[ForeverDad]

My first reaction is "how much of this is real" and "how much is a pop-culture influence that will pass"?

I remember reading studies some years back about homosexuality, and the studies concluded homosexuality is hard wired in some individuals and that for others, it's a social identity choice - commonly people who struggle to fit it and finding acceptance in this minority group which is, generally, very inclusive and supportive of each other.

Transgender awareness/rights are a hot topics these days. I can see a 13 year old not knowing exactly how to process everything that is being said in school/media.

I too perceive that many are jumping on the latest without balancing it with consideration of the historical facts.

I've been male all my life, many decades, so I tell myself.  I'm quite content with that equipment and perspective.  However, at times I've wondered how it would be to be a woman.  Sort of, if I were a woman, how would it be to be with a man?  I know, TMI.  But I'm still attracted only to the opposite sex, no doubt about that.  My point is that such thoughts don't mean you ought to be a different gender.  The problem is that today's society and peer pressure put more weight to what would otherwise be occasional thoughts and curiosities.

Does this mean she thinks she won't be interested in dating the boys at school and later?

Is there any possibility that (1) she's pondering this from some aversion to be a woman like her mother? or (2) influence from her mother?

[worriedStepmom]

I 110% believe that SD13 truly feels this way. I don't think "SD13 doesn't REALLY feel like a boy". I think she is doing the absolute best she can to interpret the feelings she is having, and that is the best conclusion she has reached.
...
Feeling like there is a disconnect between self and body can be wrenching, consuming, and inescapable. It feels really wrong and I deeply empathize with that experience. Nobody wants to feel like their body is wrong.

Not sure where to go with that at this point besides agreeing that there are many influences at play in SD13's experience right now.

This is beautiful, and I can imagine that when you expressed this to your 13-year-old that (s)he felt understood and loved.

Putting discussion of DH/my values on back burner for now as it might come across as "about us" and not "about SD13".

I totally agree with you on this.  In your shoes, I would completely shy away from mentioning values at all right now.  To SD, this isn't about her values, it's about who she is.

I would consider a nice conversation with SD's therapist about how the dynamics with mom might be exacerbated by your and H's perceived reaction to SD's gender dysphoria. The communication issue with starting menstruation is likely related to this, as starting a period is rough for a trans boy - it's a huge neon sign their body doesn't match.  It's possible that if you change course just a little on how you talk about the gender dysphoria and transition, that it might make it easier for these kinds of discussions to happen in the future.  It's also possible the therapist tells H that as far as SD is concerned, he's handling all this well and doing everything he should be doing and mom is  never going to be the perfect coparent, because she can't. 

I think it's a good sign that SD doesn't want to rush into taking medication yet.  (S)He's thinking this through and taking baby steps...and maybe she isn't sure after all.  In your shoes, I would insist that SD see a psychiatrist as well as a therapist.  Gender dysphoria is a medical issue, and it would make sense to consult the medical doctor rather than just the therapist, especially if the therapist doesn't specialize in trans patients.   If it is possible that this is more of a phase, then seeing specialists might help to clarify, both for you and your H and for SD.

The love you feel for your 13-year-old shines through, and if we can see it, then (s)he can see it too.

[Skip]

Great advice.

[kells76]

In your shoes, I would insist that SD see a psychiatrist as well as a therapist.  Gender dysphoria is a medical issue, and it would make sense to consult the medical doctor rather than just the therapist, especially if the therapist doesn't specialize in trans patients.

You know what, this is a great idea. I think it would shine a light on the situation and could be a win win for SD13 in getting needs met. It would also "allow" Mom to put her money where here mouth is -- if she is so supportive of SD13 and also believes that gender dysphoria is real, then wouldn't she want more third party professionals involved? Wouldn't she want SD13 to have the best care and support possible? Or... hmmm... maybe Mom wants to corner the market on being the only "caring" one, blocking out anyone else, DH or professional?

I think we'll start with contacting the kids' C and go from there, though. Involving a psych or even suggesting it right now would be tough for DH. One step at a time.

I did think of a local counseling org that I will call to see if they have any "stepparents of kids newly working through gender issues" groups. Or something less specific 

[livednlearned]

This is a good article: When Children Say They're Trans.

Of the things SD22 had going on, I thought her bisexual-then lesbian-then trans male-then non-binary fluidity was the least of her concerns.

Gender fluidity seemed like a tangible way to say, "I'm confused -- I don't know who I am. (I don't know which gender parent I can trust.) I'm trying to set myself apart from this mess in ways that put the maximum attention on me, in a way I can be an empowered victim and get the most help without focusing on what's really happening in my heart. I need to know if I have any power here. I can belong to this group that is beyond the reach of my family. Also, I'm society's victim, I'm not alone."

A child with a BPD parent is going to question reality. When SD22 makes a decision about whether to use a paper clip or staple she asks 10 people.

She's trying to figure out what's real and it takes a lot of checking.

The realities she hears from both parents are so different, it's really confusing.

I don't think it's true with all trans kids but with SD22 it seemed like she was rejecting what was female as a way to distance herself as far as possible from her BPD mom. Her dad is stable, consistent, confident, easy to be around, knows who he is. Her mom is erratic, self-absorbed, angry, depressed, inconsistent, unstable, vicious, confusing.

If SD22 didn't have a BPD mom I probably would've taken her gender stuff more seriously.

After telling H that she was trans male and wanted to be called by a male name, she went off to college. She never announced to the family that she was back to identifying as female, it just went away. SD22 met a guy who liked her back and that was that.

Not that it will be the same with SD13 necessarily. SD22 has BPD traits that complicate things further.

Even so, I would trust your instincts that the bigger issue is the pathogenic parenting and how it has affected SD13's sense of who she is.

With SD22 I took a light as a fairy approach.

You're trans.

And?

The article at the top might be helpful for figuring out how to find a good counselor. I get the impression that SD22's psychiatrist validated her while gently suggesting that she seemed to be more like this group of clients: non-binary.

It almost seemed like she was given a way to save face. To be different without it being as drastic as trans.

[Notwendy]

I'm not gay or trans and I have no expertise with this, but as a daughter of a BPD mother, I can identify with some of the feelings your D is having when I was that age. I grew up in an era where being homosexual was  closeted but emerging. Being trans was  not spoken about.

I had a difficult time with a female identity. My mother is very feminine and frilly. I was strong and athletic. My mother was clearly the female in the home and not a role model I wanted to emulate. My father was the other role model and I was more attached to him and we shared interests.

As my school friends began to want to date boys- I didn't. I didn't find the boys at school appealing at all. They seemed immature to me. This confused me, but in retrospect it wasn't because I was not attracted to males, it was because I was parentified. We already had enough acting out at home ( BPD mom) and putting up with teen age boy behavior wasn't something I was interested in. This continued in college where college freshman behavior was also not appealing. I had few friends and didn't want to date most guys I met. I did date some guys- these relationships often grew out of friendships.

By middle school I felt there was something wrong with me because I didn't feel like I was like the other girls at school. I had very low self esteem and thought that they were all prettier than me and why didn't I like boys like they did, even though I did have crushes on boys. This continued into college where my peers wanted to party and that didn't appeal to me. I also didn't know who I was and longed to be loved for just me. I had to put on a mask at home. My BPD mother was the main center of attention.

Kels, I think you have the main gist of your SD's feelings- she needs to be who she is and doesn't know who she is. But who does at 13? I certainly didn't. At 13 kids tend to "try on" different identities to fit in. This may mean wearing the same clothes as their peers, being "preppy" or "goth". Is your SD truly trans? I don't think it is possible to know for certain if this is something new, but if she is, it will be pervasive- it will not change. Perhaps what's important here is to love her for who she is- and thinks she is at the time- and let her know that.

I don't think children are given hormones without a full evaluation and ruling out other issues like depression or home issues. While I think a teen is aware of their gender identity, the issues with a BPD mom I think can make a teen feel different and confused. I don't know if her pronoun preference is due to her identity or feeling different and not knowing why. I think it is possible that she is trans and not feeling loved for who she is could have serious consequences. I agree with looking at gender dysphoria and dysphoria in general. I never thought I was a boy but I may have been drawn to the idea of gender fluid as a way to fit my own feelings if there had been the option because it would take the pressure off me not wanting to date most of the boys I knew at school. 

Is she testing the limits of your love? The love I felt at home was conditional. I had to be good, behave, not upset mother. But what teen is perfect? I didn't want to do something too bad, but one mistake like leaving a toy out of place was an unforgivable sin leading to raging. I needed a parent to love me when I wasn't behaving. I admit to sometimes testing the limits at home for the "shock value" but I wanted to know if my parents would still love me.

Don't underestimate that you and your H are also strong role models. I am grateful for the other mothers who were role models to me. I agree with getting some counseling about how to deal with this. You need to also be true to yourself and not just go along with things you feel uncomfortable about- but I think  that it is better for you to feel uncomfortable as an adult than for her to feel she isn't loved for who she is. If she truly is trans, then her parents need to get a certain level of comfort with this. Also if she is trans- then she faces this along with the issues a BPD mother can create for a child. I would say tread lightly and err on the side of unconditional love- always.

[kells76]

she needs to be who she is and doesn't know who she is. But who does at 13? I certainly didn't. At 13 kids tend to "try on" different identities to fit in. This may mean wearing the same clothes as their peers, being "preppy" or "goth".

Notwendy, I think this is a huge and normal part of what SD13 is going through. I suspect each generation has its own range of ways to try "being oneself"/differentiating, with options ranging from drama/attention/intensity levels 0 to 11 (now I like emo music, now I'm joining a gang, now I have an eating disorder, now I only wear orange). Feelings or experiences of being trans seem to communicate "I am fundamentally different from how you see me". But then, it's an interesting paradox -- it seems like SD13 both needs to be different from how people (family?) see her right now, and also deeply desires that external affirmation of her identity. External locus of control of her identity, maybe?

So maybe that's another part of this tangle -- "I need to have an identity different from my family, and the only way I know how to have an identity is through the relentless propping up by other people". This is what Stepdad models to her via his interactions with Mom -- "you need other strong people to build your identity from the outside". What a bind.

I think that perhaps identifying as trans is a safe way for SD13 to differentiate and remain enmeshed at the same time. I think a true differentiation would be unbearable right now. This is a supported (i.e. condoned/acceptable) differentiation.

A child with a BPD parent is going to question reality... She's trying to figure out what's real and it takes a lot of checking. The realities she hears from both parents are so different, it's really confusing.

I think it would be devastating to SD13 if she had "incontrovertible" evidence that Mom's reality wasn't real. Which makes sense; I do know that kids need to feel secure that their parents are capable and wise, because the alternative is terrifying (even if the alternative -- parentified kid -- has already been going on covertly). I think SD13 is not in a place to accept alternative interpretations for the real feelings she has, because Mom is so invested in this one interpretation (you're trans, I support you), because the payoff for Mom is so huge (I'm the only caring parent, Dad cannot accept you because he cares about his values more than you, I'm the only one you can trust, you can tell me first and Dad last, etc). I wonder if that weight is covertly communicated somehow -- SD13 "trying" being trans and then "rejecting" being trans would be way too much because it would mean that Mom's reality wasn't real -- most deeply, that if Mom "sees me for who I really am" and supports it, then if I reject that interpretation, it means that Mom didn't understand me or see me at my deepest level at all.

Just trying to work through a bunch of thoughts.

...

DH sent Mom an email last night saying that we were surprised, after hearing from SD13 the other day, that Mom hadn't given us a heads up -- that in order to coparent effectively, we needed to know this stuff. DH did add a line about "so that we can most lovingly prepare for those conversations and listen to SD13" which sounded JADE-y to me but he wanted it there. Nothing in reply yet. Glad he made a start at pulling back the top layer and poking at the communication issue underneath. I suspect we'll get back a lot of JADE.

...

I found a support group for people who have LGBTQ+ family members. First meeting is next month. Will keep you guys posted.

[kells76]

You need to also be true to yourself and not just go along with things you feel uncomfortable about- but I think  that it is better for you to feel uncomfortable as an adult than for her to feel she isn't loved for who she is.

And the catch-22 is that it is very uncomfortable to be the two adults in her life who don't use he/him, when every other adult does.

It's a deep, deep tangle. Each view that looks like "this is the most loving thing for SD13", if you move 90 degrees, looks like "this will cause SD13 to feel deeply rejected and to pull away". And each view that looks like "we can find a compromise on this issue to love SD13", again, when you look at it from the side, looks a h3ll of a lot like "let's let SD13 be at the top of the family pyramid, let's enable dysfunctional parentification, let's show her that values are things you say to sound good  but immediately jettison if it gets uncomfortable". You know?

The he/him conversation has some pretty strong undertones of Mom abdicating parenting, putting SD13 in the drivers seat, and then placing DH on the drama triangle as the persecutor -- all with Mom pulling the strings but with the "selective incompetence" and plausible deniability. And, again, this is less about the content of the conversations and very much for me about going right back to the extremely dysfunctional inverted family structure and stonewalling communications.

[livednlearned]

I found a support group for people who have LGBTQ+ family members. First meeting is next month. Will keep you guys posted.

I'm curious to hear how it goes, kells76.

SD22 went to a psychiatrist who specialized in transitioning. SD22 didn't find her that helpful because her expertise was more focused on what to expect during transitioning. Less about how to ask the question, What gender am I?

For that, she saw a female T who specializes in DBT.

I wonder if learning skills to handle anxiety helped SD22 develop more practical skills for her gender distress than leaping to more exaggerated options, if that makes sense.

She found a neutral third party who separated gender issues from parent reality and helped SD22 focus on what was seemingly more tangible and urgent: her anxiety.

[Notwendy]

It was tough when- my own kids "differentiated" from me as teens- because they don't do it tactfully. It's hard to not take it personally. I had to take a step back and stay grounded as a parent and not react emotionally. Thankfully, they didn't do really bad things- I would have put restrictions on those, but for the temporary things- wanting to be like their friends, not liking clothes I picked out, not wanting mom around- I realized I had to be the adult - set the example of emotional stability.

The teen years will push our buttons, so how much harder is this for a BPD mother and also the teen? I wanted my kids to feel they could safely do this and not risk being loved. I couldn't do this and feel secure with my parents as a teen. It was too risky to upset BPD mom.

Maybe your SD has found a way to differentiate from her mother without losing her approval. Maybe she's trying to differentiate from her father too. Or perhaps her gender identity really is male. I am not sure there's a way to tell besides time.