Entrenched (Suggestions Welcome)

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi all! I am glad to have found this site and this forum. I am an adult child of an undiagnosed Borderline mother, who is the abuser in a deeply entrenched abusive relationship with my father. My contact level with them is minimal in the last few years as watching him suffer and her try to put me in the 'good child' role has been too painful. Last year they moved from an hour from me, to across the state and four to six hours away from any relatives.

Over my adult life I have done a lot to try and heal, recognize and break patterns. I am currently trying to find a new therapist, but am doing okay for now. My one sibling, older brother, is recovering from his own mental health issues stemming from our mother, and is in a really good place and has a great therapist. I am blessed we have each other as strong supports.

So enough preamble, and on to the meat of why I am posting this. Two weeks-ish ago, our father voicemailed my brother begging for help, asking for us to get him out. This is the second time he has done this after over a decade of my brother and I planting seeds and doing ground work to try and build up his self-esteem and confidence to help him overcome the decades of emotional abuse. By the time my brother could get there, as we suspected, Mom had verbally abused him back into his 'cowardice' (his word) and he was unwilling to leave. Mom has been even more heavily screening contact and isolating, although Dad did get a letter out to my brother, saying how good it made him feel that my brother showed up after the call (as my brother had been NonContact with them for a year as he recovered).

Now, now we are both feeling 'stuck'. Dad IS showing progress finally towards being ready to get out,  but it's harder than ever to reach him to continue the work of building him up. So I am wondering if any of you who have experiences with an entrenched spouse with an abusive uBPD partner what were successful ways to try and get around the isolation blocks of the bpd spouse to the reach the other. Some of our challenges here are:

• Mom has some health/mobility issues (maybe all real, maybe some made up) and Dad is rarely allowed away from her side.
• Dad is techphobic due to the abuse and she monitors his cellphone and 'secretly' listens in on our calls with him, reads what few emails he pushes himself to write (or writes them for him).
• He is in a phase of trying to minimize his daily abuse  and in her presence tells my brother and I to not contact as he thinks that will prevent her from yelling at him, yet in his letter states he wishes he could have contact with us, but thinks he cant right now.
  

My brother and I both know, from research and therapy, that he has to want to leave, and he currently doesn't. We also do not see a path for us to convince Mom to get therapy or couple's therapy although maybe one of you has an idea for how to go about that? So I am frustrated that we took a few steps forward and don't feel like we've made any progress. I know we have made progress, it just doesn't feel that way and the next steps don't seem clear. We've been patient and taking the slow approach for years, and we may have to do that again, but there are starting to be signs, now that both are retired and basically in each other's presence 24/7 that Dad's resiliency is running out and things might escalate to self-harm soon.

My brother and I and his therapist brainstormed for a while today, and nothing that felt really solid came up. We are committed to keep trying, but I thought I'd seek out you all and a) share my feelings (so thank you all for reading) and b) see if anyone had any suggestions to add to our list.

[RavenWatcher]

Hi all! I am glad to have found this site and this forum. I am an adult child of an undiagnosed Borderline mother, who is the abuser in a deeply entrenched abusive relationship with my father. My contact level with them is minimal in the last few years as watching him suffer and her try to put me in the 'good child' role has been too painful. Last year they moved from an hour from me, to across the state and four to six hours away from any relatives.

Over my adult life I have done a lot to try and heal, recognize and break patterns. I am currently trying to find a new therapist, but am doing okay for now. My one sibling, older brother, is recovering from his own mental health issues stemming from our mother, and is in a really good place and has a great therapist. I am blessed we have each other as strong supports.

So enough preamble, and on to the meat of why I am posting this. Two weeks-ish ago, our father voicemailed my brother begging for help, asking for us to get him out. This is the second time he has done this after over a decade of my brother and I planting seeds and doing ground work to try and build up his self-esteem and confidence to help him overcome the decades of emotional abuse. By the time my brother could get there, as we suspected, Mom had verbally abused him back into his 'cowardice' (his word) and he was unwilling to leave. Mom has been even more heavily screening contact and isolating, although Dad did get a letter out to my brother, saying how good it made him feel that my brother showed up after the call (as my brother had been NonContact with them for a year as he recovered).

Now, now we are both feeling 'stuck'. Dad IS showing progress finally towards being ready to get out,  but it's harder than ever to reach him to continue the work of building him up. So I am wondering if any of you who have experiences with an entrenched spouse with an abusive uBPD partner what were successful ways to try and get around the isolation blocks of the bpd spouse to the reach the other. Some of our challenges here are:

• Mom has some health/mobility issues (maybe all real, maybe some made up) and Dad is rarely allowed away from her side.
• Dad is techphobic due to the abuse and she monitors his cellphone and 'secretly' listens in on our calls with him, reads what few emails he pushes himself to write (or writes them for him).
• He is in a phase of trying to minimize his daily abuse  and in her presence tells my brother and I to not contact as he thinks that will prevent her from yelling at him, yet in his letter states he wishes he could have contact with us, but thinks he cant right now.
  

My brother and I both know, from research and therapy, that he has to want to leave, and he currently doesn't. We also do not see a path for us to convince Mom to get therapy or couple's therapy although maybe one of you has an idea for how to go about that? So I am frustrated that we took a few steps forward and don't feel like we've made any progress. I know we have made progress, it just doesn't feel that way and the next steps don't seem clear. We've been patient and taking the slow approach for years, and we may have to do that again, but there are starting to be signs, now that both are retired and basically in each other's presence 24/7 that Dad's resiliency is running out and things might escalate to self-harm soon.

My brother and I and his therapist brainstormed for a while today, and nothing that felt really solid came up. We are committed to keep trying, but I thought I'd seek out you all and a) share my feelings (so thank you all for reading) and b) see if anyone had any suggestions to add to our list.

[yamada]

This is domestic violence in no other terms. Would it be worth while speaking to a DV service. on what they could suggest. I think it would be long term planning .  I think the penny really has to drop for him to get it..
she sounds like she has a paranoid delusion disorder. Does she physically get violent?

[JNChell]

Wow! This is a delicate situation. Your father is asking for help and he is a true victim. Help him. Are there friends or family members that he can stay with? Do you have room for him?

Here’s the deal. If you and your brother know how your mom is, it’s a given. You know how she is and your dad is asking you for help to get out. It can be as easy as placing a comfy blanket and a pillow on your couch. That could be a start.

Just a thought. I’m very sorry that you and your loved ones are going through this.

[zachira]

My heart hurts to hear how your father is being abused by your mother, and he goes back and forth on staying versus leaving. In cases of extreme abuse, it is very difficult for the abused person to leave because the abused person's self esteem is so shattered. You and your brother are doing what you can by trying to build your father's self esteem and belief in his capabilities to make better choices. I am so glad that you and your brother have each other. Just a few thoughts here that may or may not be helpful. Can you and your brother show up at your parent's house periodically and have alone time with your father, and each time you are alone with him offer to take him with you, and do so if he agrees? If he does come with you, it will be very important that you have a support system set up for him, so he will have no contact with your mother, and can be in therapy to make it more likely that he will stay. Is your father old enough to be a victim of elder abuse? I think you best bet maybe to learn what you can about domestic violence and the best ways to help those that are victims of emotional and physical abuse. Keep us posted on how you are doing and let us know how we can be the most helpful.

[RavenWatcher]

Wow, thank you all for the responses. I did not expect so many so fast. 

To clarify, my brother and I do know it's domestic violence (well, I wasn't sure where the line was between domestic abuse and domestic violence if there was no physical harm happening). We have been offering to Dad for years that he can stay with my brother who has the room (I currently do not) and we would both help him get on his feet. He's rejected this as he's convinced we would end up hating him if we lived with him (this is very similar to a fear I have, born out of living with my bpd mother, that I've worked hard to overcome, so I know where he is coming from).

Zachira: Thank you for suggesting visitations. My brother did show up last week, and although he got Dad out for a ten minute walk, as Dad started to panic, they went back to the house and Mom barred my brother access until she could set "groundrules" for  conversation, which quickly became all about her and my brother and not about Dad anymore.

It would be hard for me to get down there on my own, and while I can handle being around them for a few hours if I need to, it leaves me emotionally battered for a few days after. I hope to work on this within myself next so that maybe I could go down there and visit for this reason. Thank you for suggesting this.

And thank you all for the kind words. It's abuse and it's inexcusable, and at the same time I recognize it is born out of Mom's fear of abandonment. She is trying to force him to stay with her, and it's worked for her for so long. Now that my brother cut off contact for a year, I think her fears of abandonment are even stronger, and here comes the son who abandoned her to take her husband away. It in no way excuses the behaviors, but part of me wonders if there is a way to work with her to gain better access to Dad.

I go back and forth between feeling weighed down by the heaviness of the situation, feeling little flair ups of fear from my own struggles to break away from Mom, and hope that the road might be really long but that we can find a way. Right now I'm somewhere between weighed down and hopeful.

[Notwendy]

I can relate to your dilemma as I was in a similar situation with my father. I think it would help you to read about the Karpman triangle dynamics as a framework to see the roles each family member is taking in this. This is a model for relationship dynamics with a dysfunctional person.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

To me, the person with BPD takes "victim" perspective and usually their partner is the "rescuer". This is a strong bond between these two people. When the two of them bond against a common persecutor it helps to stabilize them- keeps them focused off the issues between them.

For many of us, our anger and resentment is about how our BPD parent treated us. Seeing how my BPD mother abused my father when he was ill and elderly was at least as horrible, if not worse. I wanted to rescue him. I would have taken him to live with me- and not her- but they were a package deal. At times he would seem to awaken and want to leave, but she emotionally bullied him into going along with her wishes. I too would take him out for coffee and he would call her every 5 minutes, or she would call him. He was anxious whenever he was away from her. If we were late or didn't call right away she'd pitch a fit.

I was clearly more attached to my father than my mother. She seemed to see me as an adversary, not her daughter. My father was not allowed to give me anything without her permission. He was the main wage earner but she controlled if he bought me anything.

This issue escalated when he became seriously ill. Although I agree it was a fear of abandonment on her part, she became even more abusive. At this point, my father was truly a victim- an elderly ill man who was not able to make the choice to simply walk out of the house if he wanted to. I called  adult protective services but as long as he was in sound mind and would not agree to abuse, there was nothing I could do.

My mother and he shared an email address. She read every e mail I sent him. When I called (house phone) she listened in. Sometimes he would talk to me and if she picked up the other phone he would quickly get off.

Ultimately, I became the "persecutor" in their relationship. Mom painted me black to him. They basically disowned me. I wish I could have spent more time with him, but when I visited, he raged at me. I couldn't handle it emotionally. So I also became to them -the "terrible daughter" who was not there for him in this difficult time. I tried to reach out to him before he died but he remained angry at me.

This is something I have struggled with. That I could not have done more for my father. I wish I could have but it began to affect my own mental well being. I have my own family- children - to take care of and I needed to be a mom to them. To reconcile this, I had to learn about his role in their relationship and I now know I did the best I knew to do, the best I could have done with the situation at the time.

I also at the time began to look at my own co-dependent tendencies. I then began to see my father's part in the relationship. I had perceived him as the victim of my mother's dysfunction. Now, I can see how his level of co-dependency was as dysfunctional as her BPD, even though he appeared to be the saner one in all aspects. The addiction model made sense to me. My mother was his addiction. When things were good, between them, they were amazing. The lows were low.  There was no way I could have removed my father from my mother. He may have wanted to leave at times, but I don't think he'd have ever left my mother.

If I had any advice, it is to let your father  know you him and that you are there ( or your brother) if he did want to leave and then drop it. If he brings it up, say the same thing but don't push it. Don't take rescuer role and get on that triangle with them. Don't triangulate with your mother. When you spend time with your father alone, don't discuss her and try not to let him vent to you too much. If he leaves her, it will be when/if  he chooses.  

[JNChell]

RW, NotWendy is spot on with the Karpman Drama Triangle. All you can do is offer your dad a safe place. He will come if he makes that choice. Be careful to not get involved, but be there to provide support when and if he reaches his breaking point.

[RavenWatcher]

Notwendy, yeah, you basically had the same experience as me. I am aware of the Karpman Drama triangle and am trying to learn more about it. I have been aware of this for a number of years (mostly due to work issues I'm having) and am trying to expose my brother to it. I rarely directly confront my mother or get pulled into the triangle directly, but she is often taking victim and making Dad the protector. She did this a few years ago with her sister over a made up drama.

Thankfully, my father is at least able to say he knows this situation is bad. So it's a start? Unless I'm clinging to false hope.

Again, thank you everyone.

[Notwendy]

It's hard to know. I think my father was aware of the situation. He would say things from time to time, even say he wanted to leave.

I had to decide it wasn't my place to do anything about his relationship. Had he chosen to leave, I would have been supportive of his decision. I also respect that he felt an obligation to not just leave my mother with no assistance- she's severely affected by BPD, has not ever had a job, and needs considerable help at home. Ironically, she has "aged" into her situation so it appears normal. As an elderly person, she does need "normal" assistance for her age. However, she needed just as much as a younger person.

I know my father feared for her welfare should he have left. I don't think he should have tolerated or been subjected to the level of abuse he experienced. I know it must have been difficult as a young man, who fell in love with my mother and then faced issues that there was little to no information about at the time. There were suicide threats ( and attempts ) on her part too. I think he was genuinely fearful of leaving her and I respect that he took responsibilities seriously.

So while he may have said things were bad, he didn't take serious action as far as I know. I also know that despite all the issues, he loved her.

BPD relationships are complicated. When learning about my own marriage and how my own co-dependent traits played a role in my situation, I learned that we are attracted and attract people who match our own emotional relationship skills in certain ways. It isn't a same match. BPD+BPD is generally unstable. BPD-Codependent is dysfunctional, but each person is meeting certain needs within the dysfunction.

It was hard to see how my mother treated my father, but ultimately I had to understand that it wasn't my place to decide the outcome of his relationship with her.

[RavenWatcher]

Notwendy I definitely understand deciding that I cant interfere with his relationship. Ever since the first therapist I worked with (the one who suggested to me first that Mom was bpd), told me that Dad was making a choice to stay, even if he didn't think there were other choices, I have routinely made the choice to accept his choice, even if I didn't like it. It was his to make.

Now, his recent cry for help feels like a reset switch and I am having to break out of the rescuer role my brother and I both want so badly to be in. I've been telling my brother and his therapist my thoughts for a long game, continuing the long, slow process of building him up. Both of them are still pushing only for a short game and we get frustrated each time in the last two weeks that no path seems to work. I'm not against short games, and I'd love to try one if it works, but I keep feeling deep down like the long game is the only one we can really do - even if it leaves him suffering longer.

[Harri]

Hi RavenWatcher!    

It sounds like you already have a pretty good handle on the drama triangle and that is great.  Something I recently started doing is looking at the Karman Drama Triangle and my chosen role in it as how I contribute to the drama.   Previously, I looked at it mostly as the role I was assigned to by my pwBPD rather than a role I chose to take.  Maybe this is obvious to everyone else I don't know, but it wasn't for me until I learned here that the article we have is really about us and the role we choose.  Even as the rescuer, we add to the drama and in turn we put ourself in the victim role, just like every other role on the triangle.  

I have no idea if realization has any place in your situation with your father though.  I thought I would mention it here though just in case.   I did realize a while back that I can play all three roles in my head!    That causes my own internal 'drama' or anxiety, depression, panic, etc.

Are you familiar with the concept of Radical Acceptance?  The article I linked is specifically geared towards family members.  Again, it may not fit for you but I am hoping it will be helpful though it sounds like you might already be doing this in the situation with your dad?

Anyway, I am glad you are here and that you are posting.  

[RavenWatcher]

Thank you, Harri! I am familiar-ish with Radical Acceptance, and that course looks like a great refresher/deeper dive! I will check it out and see if it helps.

[MagicMeg]

This is amazing. You could have been describing my father instead of your own, just incredible.

I am so sorry you are going through this. It’s hard to see your father treated so horribly. What I see in my dad is shame and guilt and defeat. He often says “I’ve created this monster” because enabling her out of fear and wanting to avoid pain makes her the queen of the dysfunctional castle. I hate that she’s done this to him. I am late to your post but I am curious if you took anyone’s advice here or if there have been any changes. I’m thinking about you and your dad and I wish you all peace.

[RavenWatcher]

Hi everyone. Thanks again for the support. So some updates. Today my brother got another letter from our Dad (handwritten), seeming to regress back into being sorry he dragged us into this, saying he needs to work on himself and fix things in their relationship himself without dragging us into it. My brother called my parents, tried to act like everything was normal, which was super tough on him. He proposed the idea to them of me and my brother sending our folks some money to help with groceries (they are not hurting for money currently, although Dad isnt quite yet able to get his social security). He called me to ask me what I thought of this, and I asked him why. I didnt say I didnt like it, but I questioned how he thought this would help.

This led into a good, but also tough call for over an hour where we really got into our different styles of trying to 'deal' with this awful situation we're in. He wants to 'charge into the fire', and feels like I dont. He said his therapist (who talked to us both for 40 minutes last week) was worried about me and my emotional state after I admitted how emotionally tough it is for me to be around our parents. She keeps stressing to my brother how this is the worst case of abuse she's ever encountered, and colleagues of her she has approached feel the same. Which, based on this message board has me feeling like she hasnt worked with many families of people with bpd.   

The hard thing about the conversation is that I am seeing just how deeply each of us is still stuck in the roles Mom built around us. I avoid conflict and let her do her thing because confronting her leads to pain, and I would rather keep trying to find ways to go around her subtly to get to Dad. Brother wants to go the more direct route and is hearing everyone around him saying no, he cant just tell Mom she is bpd and needs help, but admits he isnt ready to accept that. I said it feels like he is wanting there to be a grand gesture to fix this, and I want that too, but right now I dont think there is one.

I talked to him about Karpman Drama Triangles and Radical Acceptance. I think he had a bit of a realization about how the way he is, and the way I am, are biproducts of what happened to us growing up, how she programmed us. How we need to not just fall back into the roles of attacking her/saving Dad we are so stuck in. 

In the end ,the call ended rather quickly as his wife and kids got home and he had to help out with bedtime. I dont think it was a bad call, but I havent felt this on different pages with my brother in a long time. We both want the same thing, but we are at different places in how we want to face them. I dont necessarily think my opinions are the only right way, Im not even sure if there is a good way forward some days.

So tomorrow I guess it is back into reading more about the Karpman triangle and maybe do some research into burner phones (if we can find a way to get one to Dad).

Thanks again everyone for listening/reading.

[Notwendy]

I feels crazy to tip toe around this issue with your father, but a pw BPD can see direct action as an attack, take victim perspective, and enlist her rescuer against the perceived "persecutor". Keep in mind that you don't live with her all the time. Each time we attempted to "rescue" Dad, he was the one who had to endure her reaction the most.

If you charge into the fire, keep in mind that someone like my mother does not perceive things the way you do and doesn't play by the same rules as you do. In victim mode, she truly believes she is being attacked and that what she does is justified- and she aims to hurt back. Often someone who tries to rescue ends up being "victim".

[RavenWatcher]

Thank you, notwendy. This is what I was trying to explain to my brother. That I learned to stop trying to interrupt her rages and defend Dad because then her rage would become "Why did you let your son get involved in our fight?" I hated being made into the surface level reason for her rage (since I knew it wasnt about me but was something much deeper). I didnt want Dad to associate me with his abuse.