What should I have done?

[Wilkinson]

The past year with my uBPDw has been horrible.  We were in counseling, I set up a relationship with a mentor who was trying to help me become a better person so I could be a better husband, because my wife was always mad at me.  I started individual counseling to improve myself.  My individual counselor told me that the real problem was that my wife was abusive.  Some of if physical, but mostly verbal and emotional.  Deep down, I felt that was the problem, but I kept trying to make things better.

My counselor told me to document everything.  She recommended that I reach out to a pastor, let them know what is going on, ask for help in confronting my wife.  Sort of like a third party to tell her that this needs to stop and she needs to get help.  My pastor said, if my wife wouldn't come in to talk to him with me, to tell his brother-in-law, who also happened to be friends of ours.  So I did.  I wasn't telling anyone else.  The pastor's brother in law, didn't believe me and said that her reactions are probably the result of my behavior.  We did go to meet our pastor who didn't want to acknowledge the abuse and tried to talk to us like a regular squabbling couple.

My wife stopped by my office several times for confrontation.  On one time, it was because she demanded to see my work email, on my work computer to make sure I didn't alter it.  You see, recently, I was forbidden to contact my mentor anymore.  I sent him an email from work and received a reply. She was furious I contacted him again.  That's why she wanted to go to my desk and see the email.  Our receptionist has seen her come to the front door.  This was the second time she did this.  Our receptionist came to me later with printouts on abuse and told me that she recognized the signs and that I need to get help.  I broke down and talked about it because she was the first person who seemed to believe what I was going through.

Yesterday, she met with our pastor individually.  When I met with our Pastor, I thought he agreed that what I was going through was abuse.  When he talked to her, according to her, he claimed that what I told him was my reality and not necessarily the real reality.  He told my wife that she would be allowed to divorce me and remarry because of the way I'm treating her.  He said I should not be going around telling people juicy gossip that a mother is abusing her husband.  I wasn't trying to gossip.  I didn't mean for our receptionist to find out.  She says that she has not and will not tell anyone, but you never know.  I didn't just walk up to her.  My wife says I should have just told her, "I'm fine, don't worry."  Maybe I should have, but when I'm second guessing my reality and trying to figure out what is truth, when she, unprompted, seemed to understand what is going on, I just lost it.

I'm being told that this is all my fault.  That I'm the abusive one.  I am seeing another counselor who also says that what I'm experiencing is abuse. Do I need to make amends for talking to the pastor, his brother-in-law, my co-worker?  Right now my wife is demanding that I retract my allegations in writing with the pastor and brother-in-law.  I'm so confused.

[Notwendy]

I have an emotional reaction to your posts because it reminds me of how my BPD mother acted with my father- reading his emails, "forbidding" him to contact people, blaming others for the issues that were mainly due to her own behavior.

When we listen to this kind of thing, and take it for face value- it must be our fault, and then keep trying to fix things- over time we believe it.

I had those tendencies too. Since BPD mother ( and my father went along with her ) blamed me for any issues between us, I took the same perspective in my marriage. I didn't consider abuse- because nobody ever physically abused me. ( thankfully) and my H didn't overtly abuse me verbally ( no name calling or bad words). One day I came across books written by Patricia Evans on verbal abuse and it was an eye opener. Abuse is relative- perhaps some is worse than others but it is what it is. I assumed an abusive person was not loving or caring- but they can be. My father loved me ( he is deceased) and he also subjected me to emotional and verbal abuse. Because of this, I was not able to see the milder issues in my marriage- but they were still hurtful.

Others may not see it. My mother's friends think she is wonderful. If we dared to mention what was going on at home, we were told we were ungrateful children and how terrible to say these things about our mother. My H is also an amazing person and nobody would have believed the issues we faced at home. What you have experienced with your pastor is being invalidated. Your wife also invalidates you. She has also isolated you from communicating with anyone who might validate you. This isn't uncommon.

I am glad you are here to post. The way to finding validation isn't just through people agreeing with you that your wife is abusive. That may be the case but it puts you in victim position and victim position is powerless. You aren't powerless over this. What is needed is boundaries. A boundary can me mental- you know what is true, what is true about you, and what someone says you are can be filtered if there is a boundary.

If I were to tell you you were a pink elephant, would you believe me? I hope not because I hope you are quite certain that you are not an elephant. My telling you that you are an elephant does not make you one. Nobody has the power to make you into an elephant. So, if someone tells you that you are abusive and you know you are not, then that does't make you abusive. You know the truth. When someone tries to define you - that is actually a form of verbal abuse. You don't have to accept or believe this.

Likewise, you are a grown man. You can e mail or speak to anyone you wish. Someone doesn't get to forbid you from deciding who to communicate with. You are not a child. Also, your work emails are yours. If your wife isn't connected to your business, she has no reason to see any work e mails. IMHO you do not need to apologize for reaching out for help from the people you contacted. You did not do this with bad intentions. You were genuinely seeking help and you have the right to do this.

When I first went to marriage counseling, I expected the counselor to see my side of things. Instead, she told me to get help for my own co-dependency and poor boundaries. I had to learn to not let other people define me and to not accept being blamed for something I did not do. You can too. It was hurtful to not feel consoled but that would have put me in victim perspective. I had to examine what I was doing to perpetuate dysfunction. Every relationship takes two people. You both have a part in this.

We can't change another person, but we can help change the dynamics in our relationships by changing our part in them. I think some counseling will help you, but not from this pastor apparently. Someone neutral and not connected to your social circle would be more objective.

[hope2727]

I am so so sorry you are enduring this. Abuse is abuse is abuse. Look up gas lighting. It may help you continue to hold onto your reality. I so get it when everyone acts like the abusive person is a saint/martyr. You are not obligated to apologize for trying to take care of your own mental health. Document everything (safely) with dates and times. This will help you to maintain your reality.

Also get help from a domestic violence service in your area. They can point you in the right direction.

As for "telling" that is classic abuse secrecy. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

What finally helped me was a psychologist who understood and pointed me toward this web site. They cover several subjects on hoe abusers keep their actions secret. The first page notes that the website uses Male pronouns for abusers but acknowledges that is for simplicity sake. www.abuseandrelationships.org/Content/Behaviors/rage.htmlIt is based on extensive research and well respected.
www.abuseandrelationships.org/Content/Behaviors/other_focus.html
www.abuseandrelationships.org/Content/Behaviors/victim_role.html
I highly recommend exploring it.

The other thing I learned the hard way is mental illness is not an excuse for being abusive. People who are managing their mental illness well will tell you the same. It is the crux of many DV programs. We are all responsible for our own behaviour regardless of the challenges we face internally.

 Ok I am late for work so I will check in later. Just remember this. I BELIEVE YOU.

Oh and yes you can't convince anyone she is BPD. Just speak factually about events and hold onto you truth and have faith. You will survive this.

[Notwendy]

I believe you too.

Secrecy is part of it - not allowed to tell is a part of it.

Watching my BPD mother abuse my father was horrifying. Yet, I didn't understand why he, a grown man, would accept that kind of behavior towards him. Why didn't he say something? Why did he put up with it?

That was an important part. She was able to abuse him because he allowed it.

This is different from "blaming the victim". It's an examination of both sides- self examination is a key to change.

Years ago I became friends with a woman who had escaped an abusive marriage, started over on her own. She was intelligent, pretty, and fun to be with. She began dating and some very nice men were interested in her, but she had no interest in them. She then fell in love with a man who was not so nice. I couldn't see why, but this situation puzzled me. Later, I understood it better.

They say, if we leave a dysfunctional relationship without self examination we risk entering another one with similar patterns. This is one reason we don't post "run" messages. It is possible to make changes in or out of a relationship- in some situations- and not others but it is up to the person to decide that. However, safety first is important and if someone is in a situation where they are likely to face harm, then getting to safety is urgent.

Self work isn't blaming the victim- it's a part of changing the pattern of abuse. I agree with all the advice to learn about DV and seek help. I believe you and also believe that self work is a positive step towards changing these patterns.

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi Wilkinson

I am so sorry you are not receiving support from your pastor. Unfortunately, many pastors are not trained to deal with DV or mental health issues. They are many times easily manipulated by the partner who is actually the abuser, because they don't know how to discern the truth. It's possible that your wife didn't give you an accurate account of her conversation with the pastor, and is twisting things to fit her reality. Or she could have put together a huge victim act and now he's buying into her distortion. That's also a common tactic for abusers. I can't recall the website at the moment, but I believe that it was Lundy Bancroft (well respected abuse expert) who said that the abusers he worked with were usually the ones proclaiming high and low how they were the victims. The actual victims would be the ones trying to figure out what they did wrong and were accepting too much blame for the abuse.

I encourage you also to reach out to DV services and also tell your T about your experience with the pastor and your wife's behaviors at your workplace. That sounds like classic abuser control tactics. Abusers try to isolate you so they can get you to have no outside perspective and then you are more susceptible to believe their version of reality.

And yes, I believe you, too

[Red5]

Hello Wilkinson,

I have to echo the others that have posted here, their synopsis, and advice are dead on.

Abuse is just that, abuse, there is no excuse for it.

All the terms apply here, gaslighting, projection, emotional reasoning, splitting etc’.

I wanted to add (echo)… most times, the person whom is suspected to be a borderline will never see it, and will not accept that they are the problem… it is the inner wounded child thing again, another reason why we as non’s may have chosen this person to be with in the first place, trauma bonding (mutual).

The person on the radio said the other day… our natural (wounded) inner self is always trying to heal itself, both physically, and emotionally… it is like a defective computer file, and when it gets accessed “opened”, each time you open “windows”… it repeats exactly what it was programed to do .. in this case, the initial wound is constantly revisited, in order to try and heal itself, but here it is manifested ie' dysfunctional, your wife’s behaviors towards you.

Your wife’s behaviors are controlling, and as well paranoid… this is what borderlines do, they are in such emotional turmoil that they strive to control any and everything around them, perhaps due to their perceived paranoia within the marriage - relationship… and when we as non’s say “enough”, or rebel, or act as though we are confused as to why .. then the punishment part of control comes out (computer program)… and as you can see, it repeats itself over and over…

I am sorry about your experience with your pastor, that’s a tough one… I had a similar type experience a while back… not to that extent, but close… I think my pastor may have realized the toxicity of the situation, and chose to not reconnect – contact (avoidance)… with my wife, long story.

She has now split him black, and has never gone back to our Church, since we separated in December… long story.

The part about your pastor saying divorce would be alright to your wife, .. wow, that is not biblical imho (iaw Mathew)… you need to remember that, if you continue to worship in his parish, uncomfortable, and as well awkward at best… sorry Man : (

The others are correct; your wife has zero business at your workplace, or your work computer… period… that should be a strong boundary… that is nothing more than the control – punishment aspect again.

One thing I have learned, and maybe you can tell us more about your wife in this respect, is that familial dysfunction is often generational… a “family business” as it were… and the family of origin, repeats this dysfunction over and over, generationally… and as well, they want to keep this a secret… and great is the secret there in… that wound is perpetrated onto the children over and over, and they as well pass it on... I have seen this in my own wife's foo, and as well my first wife's (ex) foo… the dark secret, and everyone else is the problem… wow : (

What can you tell us of your wife’s up bringing?… any siblings?… do you see any of this type behaviors in her family of origin (foo), or even perhaps in your own foo?

There is no excuse for abuse, no matter what the disorder, I’ve read this… “we allow ourselves to be abused as adults”… and this is quite true, and why do we do this(?), codependency(?)… fear(?)… we are afraid they may leave(?), that they may punish us(?), that they will take everything away from us… the relationship investments… home, children, financial security… it’s a catch22 most times, and is more like a hostage situation, then a marriage – relationship.

It sounds to me that your wife has several very loyal “flying monkeys”… and it’s not a good situation that one of them is now your pastor, she seems to be very protective of her dysfunctional behaviors, actions… and this unfortunately;… is quite common (family secrets)… and it will continue on at all costs, and she will continue to project her “stuff” onto you at all costs, in order to protect her inner false self, the wounded borderline child… facts and reason be damned… she seems to not accept any social acceptable boundaries, ie’ coming to your work to “cause a scene”… not good.

I see entitlement, victimization, and extreme control in your story about your wife… person on the radio did say this… and I picked up on it… "she is not mad at me per say… no, she is just mad period!"

And why is she so mad… ie' why does my own wife (Red5's ubpdw) have such a temper, and she told me as much… so "why?"… look no further than her upbringing… the foo, this is what I've discovered, and believe is the case most times…  borderline has been described as "nature - nurture"… something happened, when they were small children, even infants .. its the mother child connection, gone wrong… abandonment… failure to connect with mom, age 0-2/4… and why did mom do this, was it intentional, no, it was learned… generationally...

How does this help you now… well, it may help you to understand the "why" part, and then move onto "radical acceptance", and thusly then be able to not take her behaviors personally anymore… enter boundaries.

I will shud-up with this… you are a grown man, and you’ve clearly invested into your marriage… but your wife does not respect you, and she also does not respect any boundaries, she is controlling, and she will punish you for not towing her line… consider that… and as well the fact that the receptionist, picked up on it immediately… this has happened to me as well… and it was quite sobering, and as well validating, for a near stranger to say… "dude, what the freak was that?"… "is she always like that Man?"… "I'll tell you for free, its abuse Man, and she (they) are most likely emotionally, or personality disordered"... "here, read this book, Stop Walking on Eggshells"... yeah, wow...

Some folks know of this type of abusive behavior brought about by personality disorders…, but many do not… sounds like you need to step back, and evaluate, and perhaps learn some new tools, coping mechanisms, on order to deal with your wife in the day to day… we hear a lot here on bpdfam about “boundaries”… many here have had some success with said boundaries, some have not… and learning, then mastering the “tools” described here also does help somewhat… ie’ just don’t let the person with borderline run roughshod over you, use the word “no”.

Easier said than done I know… keep posting, and hang in there.

P.S.

I believe you too!

Red5

[Wilkinson]

Notwendy, thank you for sharing your story with me.  As much as I don't want to go through a divorce, my four kids have been visibly affected by all of this.  I talked with a lawyer today about how to move out without losing custody.  I'm really scared to carry it through.  She threatens divorce all the time.  She makes me feel like she doesn't like me.  She has been keeping me out of the house and alienating me from the kids.  However, I know if I say, I'm leaving, and move into another place, she'll react like a love one just died and that I'm the one doing this to her. 

On the other hand, I keep trying to tell myself that if I stay, and even if I endure it, things are getting worse, not better and it's taking it's toll on the kids, as you pointed out.

[Wilkinson]

Red5, yeah her foo is messed up.  We both grew up on hobby farms that probably took more from our family than they gave, so we could both relate on that.  However, there was something wrong with her mother.  I can't tell what, (BPD, a form of functional autism?, aspergers). Her parents were also, as seen on TV, hoarders.  I think the effect of her foo played out during times of stress in our marriage.  When she was angry, it felt like she hated your total being.  However, we got through it, we had plenty of good times, and outside of those few occurrences, I was happy in marriage.  I loved providing for my family and I would do anything for any of them.

A few years ago, her sister told her about something REALLY bad that happened after my wife moved out of the house.  I'm not a psychologist, but when I look at the timeline, it feels like that is when things started change for the worst.  A few years ago, I asked her to see someone about it because I knew it took it's toll.  It just felt like it spiraled out of control after that.  At first it was just a lot of criticism, while combined to a very busy schedule at the time, I was not showing a lot of affection.  She mentioned something about it to me and I definitely did not want to be unaffectionate, but it was real hard to be affectionate when I was constantly being criticized.   Eventually, everything I did that she didn't like became a larger and larger offense in her mind, and she was less and less willing to forgive anything.  Criticism begat contempt then berating.  No matter how much I tried to improve myself or learn and implement coping strategies, things only got worse. 

Trying to implement boundaries usually brings about some negative consequences for me.  I've tried to leave before when things were bad, but she'd either block the door, or one time she got in my car so I couldn't drive away.  She once drove me to the store to berate me while she shopped.  It's less than a mile away from my office, so I decided to just leave and walk back.  She tried to block me with the car, but I walked around it.  She then left the car in the middle of the road, still running, got out and said she's walking with me and we can just leave the car there.  At that point, I didn't know what to do and got back in the car.

I guess that's why I hung in for so long.  I feel like there should be a fix.  Therapy, medication, or something.  Like dealing with her foo and learning coping strategies, but as everyone mentioned, I can't do that for her. 

[Red5]

Ah', the "car"…

In my case a Jeep Grand Cherokee (GC)… a "troop carrier" : )

We actually own two of them, you would think, that when the hub-bae buys ubpdw a brand new GC, that this would have silenced any and all beratements for quite a spell… uh'… NO!

I too have been trapped in the car with her. 

She has also left me sitting in the car, it running (she was driving)… and she just walked away. 

Another time, she was raging & driving, and had dropped me at the mailbox, and then subsequently 'almost' backed over me… in the vehicle I pay for… smh & 

… also trips, and vacations… more scenarios of "entrapment". 

My wife left home at sixteen to marry an solider, whom was seven (7) years older than her… they were married for 20 years… he left,

I married my first wife when she was sixteen, I was eighteen, we were married for 21 years, she left.

This is the "trauma bonding" of which I spoke…

No why would a young girl want to leave home at sixteen?… lots of reasons… my first wife was sexually abused… that's why she hooked me… and I sure was hooked, I loved her very very much… so my current ubpdw… I wonder… she is like one of those Russian Matryoshka dolls …  one person inside the other, inside the other… inside the other… yeah, I wonder, she has told me a few things when she was falling down drunk from the red wine… but its well hidden, re-written, and still not quite clear… but something happened to her… she told me about an attempted rape in Germany, at an apartment they lived in when he was station near Frankfurt in the Army, the perp was a Turkish immigrant… she said he "broke down the door" to get to me, her H was on duty & away… wow : (

Myself and "Q" have been together eleven years, eight of those married, she (step mom) smacked my 32 year old autistic-special needs Son in his head on 16 November, for taking too long in the bathroom, we separated on 1 December…

We each have grown children, two young men, & two daughters… and my oldest (3rd) lives with me permanently (autistic)… her daughter is 33 and has been married three times already…

She has stage iv rcc (cancer)… we are approaching our mid-fifties now…

She told me weekend before last, we went on a date for fathers day… more "operation entrapment-projection" … she told me… "you are not my prince charming Red"… I told her back… "well you certainly ain't no friggen snow white yourself babe"…

Will I ever learn ?… my big mouth and sarcastic demeanor is going to get me in a lot of trouble one day …

But after so many years… you just stop giving a $hit : (

I love her, and I do miss her (cognitive dissonance)… I will see her this weekend, she has purchased a home in the next town, and she want to barrow my skill saw, and my chop saw… hmmm,

Yes, lots to unpack 

UR not alone… hang in there "W" !, 

Red5

[formflier]

You are receiving excellent advice here in this thread.

Sadly, many pastors are not equipped to handle situations such as this (as you are finding out)

Why on earth were you supposed to talk to the pastor brother in law?  Why add an additional person?  What were his qualifications?

Here is something to consider.  She is demanding a written retraction.  I believe you should consider putting it all in writing and "invite" her, pastor and brother in law to respond in writing.

Get to one story.  (most likely they will all scurry)

DO NOT retract your story in writing.

Please tell me you have reconnected with your mentor.

Last:  You need a solid mental health team in your corner.  What steps can you take to get to that?

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I'm not sure I'd put anything in writing and it may be better to seek support from people outside your wife's social circle. People who are friends of both of you will be put in the middle- who's story to believe- yours or hers? Do they want to be put in this position?

What would these people do to help you? Are you seeking validation? Triangulation is a part of this pattern. The Karpman triangle explains the dynamics.   https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

Some time ago, I reached out to a family member on my mother's side for support about an issue. They forwarded the email to someone else and that person commented and forwarded. Eventually someone accidentally hit  "reply all" and it came back to me. There was a critical discussion and at first I thought they were speaking about my mother. Then I realized they were talking about me. They thought I was the one with the problems and  responsible for any issues between us. When you write an e mail, you don't know how it is read and who it is forwarded to,

My mother sees people as either "on her side" or not on her side. When confronted with behavior she is responsible for, she then rallies people to her side, taking victim perspective. ( see the Karpman triangle). I realized that what I was seeking was validation from her family, and that included validation from my father. This was the wrong place to look. Anything I said made me look bad " how can you say such a thing about your mother!". So I decided to work on boundaries and knowing what is me, what is true, and what isn't.

Look up the idea of JADE. When we JADE - we basically validate the invalid. If you have done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to defend.

Would you write a letter to your pastor explaining why you are not a pink elephant?  If he thinks you are a pink elephant, and you are not, thinking you are doesn't make you one.

You know reality- you can work on your boundaries and how to manage this situation with a counselor.

[Enabler]

If you were to put anything in writing (I'm unclear if this is the right route), be sure to go through a rigorous vetting process to screen your narrative for any viruses your W has infected your head with... you're lazy, you're aggressive, you're impatient, you're greedy etc etc etc have faith in your own perceptions of reality rather than the contorted version she might have you believe. Your letter will be critiqued and the smallest chink in your armour will be exploited. So make sure everything you write is something you can stand by.

As FF says, Pastors are unfortunately not that wise when it comes to mental health issues and abuse... which is odd since they're meant to deal with emotions on a daily basis.

Enabler 

[formflier]

Would you write a letter to your pastor explaining why you are not a pink elephant?  If he thinks you are a pink elephant, and you are not, thinking you are doesn't make you one.

You know reality- you can work on your boundaries and how to manage this situation with a counselor.

To clarify...if you get to the point of putting something in writing...work it through here and/or with a counselor first.

Can you prove in writing or some other objective means that your pastor has stated to others that you are a "pink elephant"?  Part of the point/objective if you were to write a letter is to clarify his qualifications to make such judgments.  If they have been made and it turns out he isn't qualified...then suggest a qualified person be brought in.

Pastors are paid to do a job.  Those that pay them would likely be (or should be) interested in the "fact" that they are paying pastors to do x...when in reality they are doing y...without being qualified to do y.

See where I'm going with that? 

Again...if you were interested in going down that path, it should be well thought through.

Best,

FF

[Wilkinson]

This is a lot of good discussion.  To answer some of the questions, I think the pastor said to talk to his brother in law, was because they were also friends of ours, he said they were the least judgmental people he knew, and he was hoping they would help us as a couple.

I also have to prepare for the worst.  I talked with a lawyer yesterday.  She said in no uncertain terms, do not retract what I said.  So I'm not going to pursue anything with the pastor.  I don't see how it will do any good.  I think I have more to lose than gain by sending anything in writing.  I am not continuing with it.  I'm not going to more people.  As I've read several books and looked up a lot of information on what to do in situations of verbal abuse, there seems to be an agreement, that often, you should go to a trusted third party, tell them about it, and together confront the person, like an intervention.  Not shaming. That's truly what I was trying to do.  I didn't need her labeled, I wanted her to get help.  

I also don't truly know what the pastor said to my wife, only what she relayed to me.  I've discovered little things here and there where she was trying to deceive me on things.  For all I know she is twisting his words around.  

I guess, what breaks my heart is that I loved this woman for 17 years.  We have been working towards plans for our family for a long time.  We have been saving up for an international trip next summer and instead, we will most likely spend that on a divorce.  The woman I would have trusted with my life two years ago, is now someone that I have to be careful to lot let myself be vulnerable to.  I just can't help but think there's a cure to this if I knew what the problem was.  Some mental illness?  Brain tumor?  She was never this bad before.  If it is something curable, I can't cure it, she would have to take responsibility, but right now, she is adamant that it is all me.

I have some friends at work who are there for me.  I am not still seeing my mentor.  Two weeks ago, I saw him at a blood drive and talked with him.  When my wife found out that I saw him when he came in she was really angry.  She expected me to avoid him and she expected him to avoid me.  She has gone on a smear campaign against him, to make sure other people think it's a bad idea for me to see him.  She convinced our marital psychologist that it would be a good idea that I not see him. I am seeing a counselor on my own, but I keep it a secret from her.  I leave my cell phone at my office because if I turn off find my iPhone, she usually asks me why and where I am.  

[Notwendy]

BPD exists on a spectrum and some cases are more difficult than others. Each relationship is different but there are some similar patterns. BPD can manifest in different ways. In some relationships there are issues like drug/alcohol abuse, infidelity, dangerous physical abuse. Whether or not a spouse stays or leaves has a lot to do with their own individual boundaries. Other behavior patterns can be diminished with intervention.

Ironically, if there is a "cure" it starts with you. Your behaviors- giving in to your wife's demands- are actually reinforcing her behaviors- and when a behavior is reinforced, it increases.

The key to change is to stop enabling her. But this comes at a cost- probably a rage, smear campaign, and this triggers fear in us.

The problem in my parents' marriage was in part, my severely BPD mother and the other part, my enabling father who allowed her to control and verbally/emotionally abuse him. She continued this behavior because- it got her what she wanted- whatever she wanted- she got it this way. There are other ways to get what we want, but this behavior worked for her and she had no reason to stop it.

Consider a child who has a tantrum because he wants a cookie for dinner. He needs to learn better ways to ask for a cookie, to eat his dinner first, and to manage his frustration when the parent says "NO". If the parent gives in to the tantrum, and gives him the cookie- he's going to keep having tantrums and not learn a better way.

When we give in to the raging ( tantruming) person, we enable the behavior. We may look like the better person but really, we are causing them harm by keeping them from learning the appropriate way to treat us.

I was a main problem in the dynamics between me and my H. He came from a family that didn't manage emotions well, so he'd get angry when he didn't like something I did ( or didn't do). In his family this didn't seem to be a big deal. It's what he learned to do. This triggered my childhood fears. Mother being angry was terrifying. I had also learned to enable her. So- hubby got angry over something and I would appease him.

The MC showed me how I was enabling this. I thought I was being the good dutiful wife, ( while resenting him). She showed me how I was enabling him to be the worst of himself, not the best. After assessing that I was not in physical danger, she told me I needed to "stay calm in the storm" manage my own fears and stop reinforcing the behaviors that were not good for either of us.  Yes, he was responsible for his behavior, but it was working for him. The better chance of getting change was getting me to stop reinforcing it.

Can you stay calm in the storm? Don't let her control you. Go see your mentor. Let her have her tantrum. Read about the extinction burst. It can get worse before better. But if you want a possible change, you need to stop reinforcing her.

If you are in physical danger, then you need to take steps to protect yourself- leave the house and get to safety. However, be aware that sometimes men have called the police and the wife has framed them with physical abuse. Look into an escape plan and also get legal advice if you are being physically abused. If she's just yelling, leave the room or house.

I think it is fine to see your mentor, see a counselor, and keep your private records in your office.

[Enabler]

Does she give any reasons why she does not want you to see a life coach?

Have you asked "What do you see wrong about me seeing a life coach to better myself?"

I would try and bat the emotional ball into my wife's court... I can't think of any reason why someones wife wouldn't want them to better themselves... unless it meant you might be less of a doormat for her after working with this guy. Are you less of a doormat?

Enabler

[formflier]

Ironically, if there is a "cure" it starts with you. Your behaviors- giving in to your wife's demands- are actually reinforcing her behaviors- and when a behavior is reinforced, it increases.

The key to change is to stop enabling her. But this comes at a cost- probably a rage, smear campaign, and this triggers fear in us.
 

Wilkinson

Do you understand this point?  Can you take a few lines and reflect back to us "why" change starts with you and "how" you changing will affect the relationship?

All of the other things we are discussing (mentors, life coaches, find my iphone) are important...the pale in comparison to understanding YOU are the key to "curing" your wife.  (or applying as much "cure" as is possible)

Best,

FF

[Red5]

Wilkinson

*Do you understand this point?  

*Can you take a few lines and reflect back to us "why" change starts with you and "how" you changing will affect the relationship?

All of the other things we are discussing are important… (and) pale in comparison to understanding YOU are the key to "curing" your wife.

FF is right on glide path here.

This is something I am still trying to do even in this late hour of my own marriage.

I did a lot of damage for a long time, I enabled, I did the JADE dysfunctional dance with her… I "fought back" blow for blow… and I did not understand that I was only "fanning the flames" of destruction.

The Jordan Peterson persona was correct when he said… (loose quote here)… "the best thing you can do for a borderline, is to set the example".

I should have used a line like this, for example [using tools - SET, and validation?]… "I see that you are upset, and I also understand that you are very angry, and your emotions are very raw right now, that said (don't say "but")… "that said, I am not going to engage in this anymore of this, because it is counterproductive, and as well harmful to both our relationship goals in this marriage"… "I too am emotionally raw, I am not going to recant, I do not feel it is the right thing for me to do right now, we will have to agree to disagree."

The other posters above are correct, when we give in, when we capitulate, we are enabling… and the dysfunction will only cycle again and again... you have to break the pattern, by not participating, just say "no".

And by doing this, you are setting an example to your wife… "no".

You cannot control her feelings, or actions… you cant change her… all you can do is change how you react.

… and then hold the boundary, don't give in, and it will get bad, you have to be strong, and disconnect from the crazy, from the control, from the "emotional reasoning" and manipulation.

And then as Notwendy says…

"stay calm in the storm" manage my own fears and stop reinforcing the behaviors that were not good...

And to further "ping" on what Enabler has written, when your partner is not supportive, even combative at the thought of you seeking counseling, therapy, "life coaching"… that's control, eg' total control… a "hostage situation" at best, and totally unacceptable.

Red5

[formflier]

I think a quick "interview" is appropriate.

I did a lot of damage for a long time, … I enabled, I did the JADE dysfunctional dance with her … I "fought back" blow for blow … and I did not understand that I was only "fanning the flames" of destruction.

Red5

Now that you understand better what you should have done...what damage you actually contributed to and all that...

How does the damage you actually did compare to the damage your wife alleged you did/were doing at the time?

How does it compare to what she alleges you did now (looking back)?

I'll keep the "witness" on the stand for follow up... 
 

  you cant change her … 

A debatable point...I want to keep this point "in play" until after everyone gets on same page about change starts with Wilkinson

Best,

FF

PS...Red5..shoot me a pm when you get a chance.

[Wilkinson]

I believe I understand change starts with me.  Starting in August, when we say an MC, I knew I had stuff to change.  I was reading books and then starting seeing my mentor, who was aiding me in improving myself.  I used to have a big problem of being defensive and fighting back in the beginning.  Now, I'm able to be much calmer and I try to focus on the emotions behind her communication rather than the facts.  I don't know how well I do it, but I can definitely say I'm better than I was.

What seems to be the hardest part about standing firm on my boundaries is how many other people seem to support her.  For example, I believe the reason she didn't like my mentor is because he supported me in standing up for myself and maintaining healthy boundaries.  At first she started calling him to tell him how bad of a person I was.  Then she went on a smear campaign against him to get other people to tell me I need to stop seeing him because he is destructive to our marriage.  When I tried to maintain the boundary of phone and work email, she ran to our friend, the pastor's brother-in-law, to complain about me.  She had him convinced I was just being dishonest and his suggestion was, as an act of honesty and transparency, everyday when I come home, lay my work laptop and phone on the table for her to inspect to build trust.

Our MC also seems to be in agreement that I need to stop seeing my mentor because it bothers her, so therefore it is not helpful to my marriage.  When she met with our pastor and complained about my mentor, I defended him, and his response was, "Well I can tell you I have lots of friends, but if my wife had a problem with any of them, that relationship would be over."  Which, if I was hanging out with a vulgar person who is a bad influence, that would be totally understandable.  I know those of you reading this can't actually know all the details, but he is a very respected man.  He's a great person to have as a mentor and he has always been on the side of helping my marriage.

She'll involve the kids.  Last night I avoided the house until 8:00.  I walk in the door and she tells me I need to leave because she can't handle being around me.  I calmly tell her this is my house too, these are my kids that I have not seen at all today.  I will be respectful and quiet.  We have three floors, I can find a place that does not disturb her and read or something.  She was adamant that I leave.  She said, "Fine, I guess that means I have to leave with the kids."  She told all of our kids, who were in pajamas, to get clothes on and get in the car.  That's where I cave the most is when she does things like that.  I have tried a couple times to maintain my boundary, but she really does leave with the kids.  They get upset and they seem to also feel that I just need to do what she asks and not rock the boat.  I can understand it from their point of view.  They were happily relaxing in our home and now they have the inconvenience of driving around for no reason, because Dad won't just do what mom wants.  

But that's part of my difficulty.  When I try to hold a boundary, she'll react and she seems to have plenty of people to support her and validate her.  She then uses them as a coalition against me to tell me I'm the one who is wrong.  And, in most cases, it works.  I constantly doubt myself wondering if something is an appropriate boundary because I seem to be the only one who thinks so.  If I do get support, like what you all are giving me, I then start to question, did I really present it to them accurately, maybe they would disagree if they knew more?  It's like how do you know you're right, when everyone you know tells you you're wrong?   My wife always accuses me of being one sided and not taking responsibility for my part.  I know that is a mistake, people in general can do, so I'm always questioning myself.  I feel like I need to be absolutely perfect to know that I'm doing it right, which I'll never be and if I was, I'm sure she would still find fault with me.

I don't mean to make excuses when people say, that change begins with me.  What I'm trying to say is, I don't disagree, but WOW, it seems to be really hard and I'm not successfully figuring it out.

[Red5]

Now that you understand better what you should have done...what damage you actually contributed to and all that...

How does the damage you actually did compare to the damage your wife alleged you did/were doing at the time?

How does it compare to what she alleges you did now (looking back)?

I'll keep the "witness" on the stand for follow up...  

I'll make this quick, don't want to highjack Wilkinson's thread…

The damage I actually did, in my own mind, my own understanding… was me in “survival mode”, add a measure of hard headiness, pride, even arrogance, as I am a retired Marine, which was my persona for two and a half decades… as in “no!, YOU are NOT going to speak to me like that, or throw this, or do this or that… fill in the ____.

…not wanting to be controlled, berated… run over roughshod by my seemingly, constantly… irrational, angry wife… on a constant basis… she did “warn” me that she had a temper.

She tells me that I considered her my girlfriend instead of my wife, we dated for 3.5 years before we married, both second marriages, 20 years each… “so you’d think we knew a thing or two about “marriage”… sadly no (baggage).

She told me I emotionally abused her, took her power away (YEAH)… because I yelled at her, and that I constantly threatened divorce each time we argued, fought, and squared off... her words,

She said she wanted a man that would “stand up to her”, but that she didn’t expect this (me)…

My “truth” compared to hers… of course I was extremely defensive, and I did raise my voice to her, I would raise my voice in concurrence with the level of her voice… and “try” to make her be reasonable () no joy… the more I tried to get her to see my “light”, the “light” .. the further she digressed into perpetual anger… yes, we had some pretty bad fights, broke things, threw things… it was like she went from forty something to a petulant angry teenager… in a “snap”.

She was often inconsolable, off the rails… basically, its all my fault… and it still is according to her.

Then one night, I read about borderline… the inner wounded child thing… and all the rest that goes with it, fear of abandonment, inability to reason… (volumes of source data here) etc etc etc’… whoa : (

Yeah, I tried to fix her too…

Yeah, I made a complete mess of things…, which escalated after she went after my boy.

However, I accept full and total responsibility for my part in the dysfunction… all of it; I could have done far better.

…"by your leave Sir"… may the witness stand down now?

Wilkinson… I also hid from my udx borderline wife that I was seeing a counselor, at that time a LCSW (MSW)… until up to about four months ago, two months past the time we separated... since moved on to a LPCA whom specializes in BPD, and DBT among other things… its been very helpful to me.

Red5

[formflier]

Back at you.

Can you explain in a couple sentences why change should start with you?

How does that relate to you NOT being able to change your pwBPD...(and me not exactly agreeing with that point)?

This is really important point.

Best,

FF

[Red5]

Can you explain in a couple sentences why change should start with you?

How does that relate to you NOT being able to change your pwBPD...(and me not exactly agreeing with that point)?

This is really important point.

Ok, in a couple of sentences, no pressure...

You must be in a safe and secure place within yourself, you must be “comfortable in your own skin” .. you must think clearly, and concisely, in the face of bedlam… the terms are “cognitive, dialectic”… keep your head, be humble, but fiercely be emotionally strong… empathetic, and NOT apathetic.

You will never be able to cope with a dysregulated partner if you are week inside, unsure of yourself…  you have to be able to take “fire”, and “battle damage”, and not become affected by it… to the point of "shut down".

You have to look within, deep within… take inventory… and accept that you are not perfect, just, or a “saint”… you must do the hard work, on yourself… honestly… this can be a tall order for some folks… me included.

Ok, that said, if you are not a “strong” person, and you don’t first love and care about yourself, (self care) ~> you will never be able to help others effectively… in fact you may drown with them… there has to be that firm and strong inner foundation, that emotional or spiritual base, to operate from… you have to be able to “sustain” yourself, over the long haul, no matter what happens… we hear a lot about "radical acceptance".

I’ve read all over the place, and life has also taught me this… CHANGE starts with you, at home, in your own mind, spirit… this to me equates to (element of)… “setting the example”… reaching out a hand, even to a person whom is very angry at you… or seemingly hates you… and or has hurt you… but you have to know your limitations… when the cup is MT, its MT (empty)… you cant poor water out of a cup to wash someone else’s feet, it that cup is empty… change starts with you, the person, awareness… sure we may think we can change others, but ultimately its their choice not ours…

That’s all I got… I got to run ~>

Red5 out’

[Wilkinson]

First, this has been the most helpful and thought provoking discussion I've experienced on bpdfam.

Second, FF, I'd like to ask more.

How does that relate to you NOT being able to change your pwBPD...(and me not exactly agreeing with that point)?

Since there is not a font to convey tone, please read this in the most respectful tone possible.  I'm not trying to conflict with you, I am eager to learn, and help others learn with thoughtful dialogue. So thank you.

So first, I totally agree that we have a part in our loved one's behavior.  The example earlier of caving to a child's tantrum can reinforce that behavior, and as a parent, we have a duty to stand firm and let them learn they can't just push the boundaries.  I also believe that people in general are more likely to stop doing everything on their part and concluding too quickly that it is the other person who is the problem and that they can't do anything.

 I'm curious where you think the other's parties responsibilities begin though?  I have four children.  Most of them can understand the boundaries.  One of them would always push no matter what.  He has lost so many privileges from crossing boundaries. There are times, I really question him because I can't figure out why he makes his life more miserable to get what he wants at the time, when he would better off listening.  Like losing all his electronic privileges because he didn't want to go to bed. He still went to bed, it had to be a fight, and now he doesn't have electronics the next day.  If you were to live in my house, there are definitely find times where I was too busy or too tired to enforce the boundary, or one of us didn't notice him on the computer the next day so he was still able to get on electronics.  So you could argue that the boundary was not enforced and I wouldn't disagree with you, but it feels impossible to be 100% accurate in maintaining boundaries with him when I have three other kids, two jobs, and kid's activities.  I'll readily admit that sometimes I'll cave to him because at the time, I feel like I don't have many options.  However, my other three kids seem to learn with being mostly accurate with boundaries.  

What I feel like you're saying, is if someone close to you is not behaving properly, you probably aren't doing enough on your part.  That's probably too black and white of a way to say it, and probably too extreme than what you really mean, but I'm struggling to see if you believe there is a limit on what a person can do to influence someone.  Again, I would whole heartily agree that most people give up too easily and say it is the other person's fault without putting in enough effort on their own, but I'm curious how far people need to go?

My other example is from my religious beliefs. I will tell you I am a Christian.  I strongly believe in Jesus Christ, as our savior.  When I read the scripture, I understand Jesus to be the epitome of  maintaining healthy boundaries. He knew what was right and would not waiver, nor could others influence him to cave in on any of his boundaries.  He did the ultimate in doing his part of the relationship to open the door for reconciliation and salvation.  He was perfect and 100% accurate in drawing and maintaining boundaries. However, He still left the choice to us.  He couldn't have made it easier for us unless He made the decision for us as well.  However, He only opens the door and cleared the way for us, we still have to choose to go through. (Matthew 7:13-14).

I am not comparing myself to Jesus. However, if I am trying to use His teachings as my example for my life, I would be inclined to believe that while we have a responsibility in our partner's behavior and reinforcing with solid boundaries, like in the parenting example, there's a point at which the other has to choose to accept them, and also has the option to never choose to accept them.  In my case, let's just say for the sake of argument, that I could be perfect and 100% accurate in drawing appropriate boundaries and maintaining them with my wife.  My wife has the freedom to choose not to follow them.  She could double down in her belief that I'm just a bad husband, convince others and get validation and get support in our community that she is justified in leaving me by painting my boundaries as abuse. (Something she's actively doing.)  She could live her whole life without ever changing and aligning to the boundaries.  

So, I sort of see maintaining boundaries and changing yourself on a spectrum of You have no influence (0%) over the other person on the left all the way to You have total influence (100%) on the other person with your behavior on the right, how far do you believe people need to go to the right?  In reality, I believe both extremes are incorrect, the answer is somewhere in the middle.  I would agree that the real answer is farther to the right than what I've been wanting to go.  However, I believe there is a limit to it.  I don't have 100% influence over my wife.  I can't honestly say what the best answer is, but from the discussion, it would appear that you are farthest to the right on this debate and I guess I'd like to understand your stance better?

[formflier]

First, this has been the most helpful and thought provoking discussion I've experienced on bpdfam.

And really..that's what this is all about.  Not "giving you the answer", but provoking thought...deep thought...counter-intuitive thought and then finding the confidence to put a new idea into play.

I'll make this argument.  The tools are to give us confidence that we can "clean up messes" that we make while trying new things.  What works for me may fall flat in your relationship and vice versa.  Let's say you give something the ol college try and it comes out all wrong.  You can reach in your toolbag..validate..SET...perhaps apologize and move on.  (moving on means letting the remaining BPDish fire burn itself out...or at least you don't stand around tossing more fuel on the fire...even if you happened to actually light that particular fire)   (note...most fires they allege you lit..you didn't actually light)

Second, FF, I'd like to ask more.Since there is not a font to convey tone, please read this in the most respectful tone possible.  I'm not trying to conflict with you, I am eager to learn, and help others learn with thoughtful dialogue. So thank you.

Appreciate it...


Thoughtful and sometimes counter intuitive is the way to go.

Why?

Well...there aren't enough answers to memorize to solve all this BPD crazy.  You have to understand the process...the emotional process..which is challenging for thoughtful "nons" like us.  I'm ESTJ by that way.  Think first..feel later.  My wife is INFP.  So...even without BPDish (PPDish in my case)...we have a challenge on our hands.


 

So first, I totally agree that we have a part in our loved one's behavior.

And that's really it.  We play a part...a role.  If we want change...change the role.  Thoughtfully change the role. 

For instance..if we have been a persecutor...(drama triangle stuff)..."go forth and persecute no more" (note..they may claim you still are...as long as you aren't (and your "team" backs you up...agrees..)..then reference my note above about move along...let the fire burn out.

I'm curious where you think the other's parties responsibilities begin though?

I just finished an MBA program.  My new favorite phrase..that my family is already tired of hearing.

It depends...

 I have four children. 
  but it feels impossible to be 100% accurate in maintaining boundaries with him when I have three other kids, two jobs, and kid's activities.

 

Well...you tried.  I have 8.  (Oh FF..put away the snark...bad FF bad)

What I feel like you're saying, is if someone close to you is not behaving properly, you probably aren't doing enough on your part.  

Perhaps.  Again..introspection is always better than investigation of the other part.  Perhaps introspection first is a better way to say it.  Plus that sets the tone. Lead by example.  What if you wife examined her role first...took care of that, then addressed your role with whatever time was left?

Right...but we can dream.

That's probably too black and white of a way to say it, and probably too extreme than what you really mean, but I'm struggling to see if you believe there is a limit on what a person can do to influence someone.

Dichotomous thinking is useful for a quick evaluation.  The heat of the moment when the rage is wide open.  Then go do self care, then get serious about thinking and evaluating.   

 Again, I would whole heartily agree that most people give up too easily and say it is the other person's fault without putting in enough effort on their own, but I'm curious how far people need to go?

I'm a words guy...what if you were rigorous about getting rid of "fault" from your vocabulary and every time that popped in your head you substituted "responsibility".

Does that seem like a small thing...nuance?  Or big?

My other example is from my religious beliefs. I will tell you I am a Christian.  I strongly believe in Jesus Christ, as our savior.

Solid work!  I'm conservative Baptist variety.  Yep..one of them.  No sprinkling allowed...all the way under!   

Note:  Let's not turn this thread into a Christian discussion.  Perhaps I'll start another thread soon and we can work that angle over there.

Preview...God was the original psychologist!

 When I read the scripture, I understand Jesus to be the epitome of  maintaining healthy boundaries. 

  He was perfect and 100% accurate in drawing and maintaining boundaries.

 However, He still left the choice to us.  

Yes...but...

Many times he was purposeful about having no boundaries and many time his purpose was something other than boundaries. 

Not disagreeing with you, just an important distinction.  Our mission and that of Jesus are/were different.

He couldn't have made it easier for us unless He made the decision for us as well.  However, He only opens the door and cleared the way for us, we still have to choose to go through. (Matthew 7:13-14).

And..he respects our decision, even if we don't have a respectable decision.

However, if I am trying to use His teachings as my example for my life, I would be inclined to believe that while we have a responsibility in our partner's behavior and reinforcing with solid boundaries, like in the parenting example, there's a point at which the other has to choose to accept them, and also has the option to never choose to accept them.

Solid example to follow. 

 In my case, let's just say for the sake of argument, that I could be perfect and 100% accurate in drawing appropriate boundaries and maintaining them with my wife.  My wife has the freedom to choose not to follow them.  She could double down in her belief that I'm just a bad husband, convince others and get validation and get support in our community that she is justified in leaving me by painting my boundaries as abuse. (Something she's actively doing.)  She could live her whole life without ever changing and aligning to the boundaries.  

Preview:  We can also talk about some Christian authors in another thread.  There are some excellent authors that work through the wisdom of looking at life in this way and how best to "implement" such a strategy.

So, I sort of see maintaining boundaries and changing yourself on a spectrum of You have no influence (0%) over the other person on the left all the way to You have total influence (100%) on the other person with your behavior on the right, how far do you believe people need to go to the right?

And...here is the important point, the "calibration" of the spectrum changes, usually based on the "emotional status" of the pwBPD and yourself.

 In reality, I believe both extremes are incorrect, the answer is somewhere in the middle.

Reference above and the concept of "shifting measurements".  "The middle" will move.  However the concept of "centering" is a better application, rather than "finding the middle" as an absolute.

Said another way.  As long as you can figure out which direction to "push" or "pull" to get to the center, then you've figured out 80% (or more) of your problem.  Many times the other 20% will take care of itself (or you will decide to let it "burn itself out")

 I would agree that the real answer is farther to the right than what I've been wanting to go.  However, I believe there is a limit to it.  I don't have 100% influence over my wife.  I can't honestly say what the best answer is, but from the discussion, it would appear that you are farthest to the right on this debate and I guess I'd like to understand your stance better?

Love it...stick with the thought of "I don't understand..but I want to"  That will help here, but even more in your relationship. 

You are well on your way!

Best

FF

[formflier]

I suppose I should give my answer/make my point.

The example was not created by me..but one that made sense to me, so I now repeat it.

BPD reveals itself inside a relationship.

BPD person does x...non does y..the result is z.

Imagine this is a dance.  The non finally realizes and wants to change the pwBPD.

So...BPD person does x...non does a...the result is b. 

Did the non "change" the pwBPD? 

I obviously have an opinion, but I'll let you guys chew on this for a bit.

Best,

FF

[Wilkinson]

I'm a words guy...what if you were rigorous about getting rid of "fault" from your vocabulary and every time that popped in your head you substituted "responsibility".

Does that seem like a small thing...nuance?  Or big?

I like the word "responsibility" as opposed to "fault" 100%. 

[Notwendy]

I think this can be summarized as : what is the most effective way to bring about change?

Yes, your wife is responsible for her part in this. Yet, a focus on her part leaves you powerless- in victim mode. While I agree that someone who is the victim of abuse- is a victim- the problem with this perception is that - the victim is the unfortunate recipient of the person's behavior.

Expecting the other person to "see the light" and take responsibility for their actions may not work well with people who tend to project their feelings. IMHO, the pwBPD is emotionally in victim mode. When someone is being abusive to another person-they in the moment believe they are the victim ( see the Karpman drama triangle)

When the other person also takes victim mode- this situation becomes ineffective. The pwBPD in victim mode does not see the other person as victim- they are too wrapped up in their own emotional pain. And if they tend to project- that emotional pain is being put out and they see it coming from you.

BPD involves disordered thinking. When you respond to it by validating and enabling it, you join them in their thinking. If you are accused of something and you act like it's your fault when you didn't do anything wrong ,you are buying into disordered thinking.

What works better is building up your own boundaries, holding on to what you know is true, not JAEDing, and not enabling. This is something you can do- because you are the one who learns to do it.

Yes, people have free will to choose and they are accountable for their own choices, but this is more about what you can do to take action for positive change rather than who is at fault or responsible.

[Wilkinson]

So let me put this out there and see if you can help me sort this out.  I feel like I've been fighting for my marriage and doing everything possible that I have the ability to do.  If I could transport back in time and do things differently could I get a better result, probably, but when I look back, no matter how well I was at doing the "right" thing (if that really exists), I did the best I could with all the knowledge I had at the time, and I was always working to have as much knowledge at the time as I could learn.  I'm not saying anything about my skill level, only that I truly was trying as hard as I could and did the best that I really thought I could do with what I had.

However, I still went to a lawyer this week.  I plan on moving out and filing an emergency motion for custody of my children.  I feel devastated that it has come to this.  Many might say I should have left earlier and allowed too much damage to myself and my kids, but I was afraid of giving up. Imagine dropping out of your MBA program with only one class left because you felt that last one was just too difficult, or you didn't have the money to pay for it, or you didn't have the time to take it.  How would you feel for the rest of your life knowing how close you were, but not making it.  Years later, you would have looked back on it and thought the thing that stopped you wasn't that big.

That is my fear for my marriage only I don't know how close I am to solving it or even if a solution exists.  I have this horrible fear that I'm almost there.  I just need to stick it out a little longer, try the right thing, say the right thing, or find the right MC and things will be solved.  I know divorcing doesn't solve the problem.  I still have to deal with her raising our kids and because of our kids, she will always be in my life.  I will see our kids at functions, share them for holidays.  Divorce won't solve anything, but it might make things less horrible, some of the time.

I still have yet to walk out of my house.  I'm so scared to do it.  I want to cry at the effect all of this has had on my kids, my wife, and what it will have on all of them, but things can't go on as they are.

As I've read your posts in this thread, my inner voice keeps saying, "If you divorce, you're a failure! Look there's another person saying you didn't do your best.  You didn't do all you could to save your marriage.  You didn't really try everything!"  I don't believe anybody is actually saying that, I believe you are honestly trying to have a thoughtful discussion.  So I'll emphasize, my inner voice keeps saying...

Which goes back to my original question: "What should I have done?"  If I examine my motivation, I desperately wanted validation that I truly did everything I could and that I truly did everything that was within my responsibility for my marriage.  That this is not my failure because I did everything I could and couldn't have done better.  Of course, when I state this in writing, it's obvious that no one in the world can give this to me.  That is something only I can provide and I don't know that I ever will.

Providing for my family was the single most important thing for me.  That's how I saw myself and evaluated myself is how well provided, financially, spiritually, emotionally.  I have gone to great lengths and made sacrifices to fulfill that duty and I happily did it with pride.  What do I do when the thing I have worked the hardest for and for most of my life not only fails, but rests upon me to finally call it?  Please don't freak out, because I'm far from this, but I will admit, I have wondered it dying would be an easier fate.  It's not, but I have asked the question several times.

Do you remember in Rocky IV, when Apollo was fighting the Soviet boxer?  One of the people on Apollo's team was yelling at Rocky, "Throw in the damn towel!".  Rocky was reluctant to give up for his friend.  He didn't want him to lose by forfeit, as a boxer he knew the devastation of giving up is worse than the devastation of defeat.  However, Apollo dies in the ring.  If Rocky had thrown in the towel, maybe Apollo would have lived his whole life with the devastation of giving up, but he would have lived.  In stead he kept giving it just a little bit more until it was too late.

That's how I feel when I look at my marriage.  I'm seeing the devastation to myself and my kids.  Bringing myself to "throw in the towel" is the most painful thing in the world for me, because I know with 100% certainty there will be people to tell me I didn't do everything I could, I didn't try hard enough, things were my fault.  And that will probably haunt me for the rest of my life because I don't know that I'll ever be able to convince myself they are wrong. But at what point is it "too late"? I feel I'm in a position where I will forever have some regret.  That I either didn't try hard enough, or I stayed in a bad situation too long.

[formflier]

He...change "plan to"...to "prepare to".

Seriously...perhaps even draft the emergency motion...get it all ready (think of it as loading the gun versus shooting the gun).

Once you have a clear understanding of the procedure, timeline, costs...chances and all that, I bet you will have more confidence to do other things.  Secure in the knowledge that "worst case", you tell your lawyer to file (fill in the blank).

preparation and thinking things through is key!

Best,

FF