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Author Topic: step parenting uBPD SD22 with suicidal ideation  (Read 663 times)
livednlearned
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« on: June 26, 2019, 03:22:11 PM »

(Following from this thread.)

My takeaway from T and support from friends here is to lead (versus passively muddle forward with) my blended family to focus on uBPD SD22's SI and safety.

So I'm going to work this out here, out loud, welcoming any input as I try to move this boulder forward. I'm pasting it on this board because the step parent dynamic is where I really lose my way.

How do I lead?  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)

I connected the dots between H and my other step daughter, SD25, so that we are all now in open communication about SD22's SI.

H and I are taking a class in supporting a loved one with SI in September.

I was hoping that H would lead and help set up a safety plan for the three of us -- he hasn't done that other than to say that if there is a crisis, we should call him first.

I am reluctant to consider H the best to lead since he is the one most in denial and most emotionally flooded when it comes to SD22's SI. Not to fault him too much -- he works in a hospital and deals with crises daily. He is good at compartmentalizing. He is good at responding to immediate crises.

What realistically can I do as step parent to address the SI?

There is talk by two of SD22's professionals (psychiatrist and T) that the dx needs to be reconsidered. SD22 has not discussed this with anyone. This info came to H via the T during a medium-level concerned call about SD22's distress levels.

The fact that SD22 is an adult complicates things. The fact I'm not supposed to know about the reconsidered dx is another.

H does have some influence altho he tends to not be direct with her due to her extreme sensitivity.

I would like him to tell SD22 that he wants to see her T together to help better support her transition to adulthood. This would be appropriate given how much anxiety she's experiencing, which I would rate as chronically high and periodically extreme. I am almost certain that SD22 will say no to a joint visit because the T hinted (to H) that SD22 shut down when the discussion of a new dx came up. Meaning, SD22 doesn't want to bring her dad into a potential pool of light where everything is visible and exposed.

So I've proposed H give SD22 two options: He sees the T with her. Or he sees the T on his own, and SD22 can talk to her T about how to best handle that.

Idk. Is that leading or a set up for disappointment?

What I would really like to do is call the T directly which I know I can't do.
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« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2019, 03:55:31 PM »

Will the T be allowed to talk to H without SD present or without her permission?
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« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2019, 04:12:52 PM »



How do I lead?  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)
 

Remember your example you wrote where you put dates...action by xyz or else.

I think that's your next talk.  "Hey..am I remembering right that during our talk you agreed to abc?"  "how is that going"  (listen)

If there is action..dates...and it's only days or a week away...then roll with it.  If it's not...and his plan is to do nothing until september.

Well..you are going to have to own that it makes you uncomfortable and you ask him to reconsider.  Can he take a step forward (leave that open to him) by (couple days away)

So..calling to set appointment and being able to report back is a step.

maybe do a set with the T that You and not ok with waiting. 

What do you think?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2019, 05:41:23 PM »

Will the T be allowed to talk to H without SD present or without her permission?

Normally I would think no? But then the T talked to H for 30 minutes about SD22. I was sitting in the car and heard the conversation (with H's permission). The T did not know I was there.

I took that to mean that the T knows H can be trusted with confidential information, that he is the stable parent in the family. And that the T is also concerned about SD22's chronic distress, enough to make sure that H was aware, and also that there were limits to what kind of support T can provide across state lines due to licensing. She also relayed information that either SD22 told her, or the psychiatrist told T, about wanting to reconsider the diagnosis.
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« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2019, 05:59:53 PM »

Remember your example you wrote where you put dates...action by xyz or else

That part I got.

It's what the dates/actions are that stumps me.

When I look at what in practice I can do ... it seems pretty limited.

My T has said, "SD22 needs a thorough adult work-up," and the T and psychiatrist seem to be saying the same thing.

H is now saying that he wants SD22 to get a job before he suggests they go see her T together. He wants to talk together with SD22 and T for roughly 15 minutes, then let them talk. Then come in later if he's asked to. Only if SD22 agrees.

What does it mean to lead in that situation?

The dates/action thing don't really apply, at least not in a way I can see clearly.

Leading does imply some pressure the way I see it. That if these conditions aren't met, then I will do xyz.

If H and SD22 are not willing to meet to discuss things with her T, then I will look at things I can either influence or control.

I keep getting turned around when things get down to the nitty gritty.
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« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2019, 06:11:46 PM »

I don't see your husband wanting to deal with the nitty-gritty. He may think that the situation will be more concrete after SD22 has a job, but right now, it's like nailing Hello to the wall.
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« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2019, 06:30:35 PM »

What is his goal in talking to the T, or in going with SD22 to talk to the T?  What you describe is how sessions go with my minor children - I go in and give background and what's going on, they talk, T gives me an overall idea of what happened.

That is not going to cut it with an adult child with SI.

Would it be worthwhile for you and H to list out concrete goals?  And then figure out the steps to get there?
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« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2019, 09:09:56 PM »


While it's good to think a couple steps ahead...keep it very general.

Best outcome is that H takes any steps forward..by a certain date that is in the near future.

If he is moving (even if the steps aren't exactly what we want)..keep pressure..and praise when he actually takes steps...

Eventually you may have to go "line in the sand"..."do this or else"...but for now, I'd shoot for a couple notches lower.

Said another way...don't prejudge his actions..or lack thereof. 

Have the talk, get a commitment and then see what happens.  Or..if he won't commit..ask questions and listen.  "Am I correct in understanding you are reluctant to move forward about your daughters health?  Help me understand how you see this?" (stay away from saying "why")

I would be prepared for this to play out..this way..

"blah blah..no...it's not time"

"Since you understand that I'm concerned about (SD22) acting on her SI, how do you expect me to respond to what i just heard? "

"blah blah blah she's my daughter..I have to handle it..blah blah"

"Do you believe my concern for another human's life should be less because they aren't actually my child?"

I hope it doesn't go there.  Those hard questions should get us more information.

Pressure..not ultimatums (at least not yet..let's hope we don't have to go there)

Best,

FF
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« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2019, 10:37:54 PM »

So, it just occurred to ask this question...

How "out in the open" is it that D22 has SI? Who does S22 "know knows"?

I ask because:

Your DH knows.
You know.
Dd25 knows.
Therapist knows.

But does DD22 know that you all know and that there is a high level of concern? Or is this all a lot of whispering among the family?

In other words, at what point is anyone going to sit down with DD22 and open the conversation and say that a safety plan is required.

I am imagining not the elephant in the room but rather the hippo ballerinas in the animated movie Fantasia -- you know at some point, someone is going to get hurt.
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« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2019, 09:34:08 AM »

What is his goal in talking to the T, or in going with SD22 to talk to the T?

To discuss how he can best support her transition to adulthood, how he can do better helping her cope with extreme anxiety.

Would it be worthwhile for you and H to list out concrete goals?  And then figure out the steps to get there?

The concrete goals seem to be very peripheral to the core issue of SI.

I will help the family put together a safety plan.
I will shine light on SD22's SI
I will share resources to better educate us (DBT, SI)
I will continue to set limits for myself

don't prejudge his actions..or lack thereof.

This is pretty much how it is right now.

For example, last night I said, "It seems like the the volume of texts/calls from SD22 are down ."

Him: "I agree. I think she's doing better right now."

Then later SD22 called and they talked. I have a hunch that SD22 is a genius at telling him what he wants to hear, but what do I know. Her family members are saying that she texts and calls too much -- SD25 gave her an article saying how texting makes anxiety worse. And H has suggested that texting 5 people to get advice doesn't seem to help and might actually be making things worse. SD22 agreed. So now her texting is down a bit, calls are about the same. My guess the volume will increase in roughly a week if not sooner.

Addressing SD22's anxiety is his primary goal, if you can call it that. Altho he has admitted that there does seem to be more to SD22's struggles than anxiety. It's probably the one that he feels safest discussing with her (and verbalizing to himself).

What is his goal in talking to the T, or in going with SD22 to talk to the T?

To discuss how he can best support her transition to adulthood, how he can do better helping her cope with extreme anxiety.

Would it be worthwhile for you and H to list out concrete goals?  And then figure out the steps to get there?

The concrete goals seem to be very peripheral to the core issue of SI.

I will help the family put together a safety plan.
I will shine light on SD22's SI
I will share resources to better educate us (DBT, SI)
I will continue to set limits for myself

don't prejudge his actions..or lack thereof.

This is pretty much how it is right now.

For example, last night I said, "It seems like the the volume of texts/calls from SD22 are down ."

Him: "I agree. I think she's doing better right now."

Then later SD22 called and they talked. I have a hunch that SD22 is a genius at telling him what he wants to hear, but what do I know. Her family members are saying that she texts and calls too much -- SD25 gave her an article saying how texting makes anxiety worse. And H has suggested that texting 5 people to get advice doesn't seem to help and might actually be making things worse. SD22 agreed. So now her texting is down a bit, calls are about the same. My guess the volume will increase in roughly a week if not sooner.

Addressing SD22's anxiety is his primary goal, if you can call it that. Altho he has admitted that there does seem to be more to SD22's struggles than anxiety. It's probably the one that he feels safest discussing with her (and verbalizing to himself).

Excerpt
How "out in the open" is it that D22 has SI? Who does S22 "know knows"?

SD22 knows that H and SD25 know, that therapist and psychiatrist know.

Excerpt
does DD22 know that you all know and that there is a high level of concern? Or is this all a lot of whispering among the family?

Lots of whispering.

Excerpt
In other words, at what point is anyone going to sit down with DD22 and open the conversation and say that a safety plan is required.

Great question. The problem with the answer is that the person who believes this is most important has the least amount of influence 
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« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2019, 09:48:11 AM »

Excerpt
The concrete goals seem to be very peripheral to the core issue of SI.

I will help the family put together a safety plan.
I will shine light on SD22's SI
I will share resources to better educate us (DBT, SI)
I will continue to set limits for myself

These constitute your plan.

What are the goals? 
To eliminate SD22's SI?
To have the family work in X way to address Y issue?
To get SD22 rediagnosed?
To ease SD22 out of thinking that she still lives with you?
To reduce SD22's need for constant emotional validation from her family?

What would be a reasonable goal for what family life ought to look like in a year (knowing that it won't be a Norman Rockwell painting)?

Your goals might look very different from your H's, and that may or may not be okay - but you need to know what each other's goals are.

His goal - "transitioning SD22 into adulthood" is utter bunk, and I would argue he needs to be called on that.  That is an egregious ostrich move.
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« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2019, 10:01:11 AM »

  how he can do better helping her cope with extreme anxiety.

Addressing SD22's anxiety is his primary goal, if you can call it that. Altho he has admitted that there does seem to be more to SD22's struggles than anxiety. It's probably the one that he feels safest discussing with her (and verbalizing to himself).
 

LnL

Lots of things swirling around to evaluate...I think I have another approach worthy of thinking through.

As you know...I'm a "come straight at the problem" kinda guy.  As you also know, many times "direct" is not the most effective approach for types like your hubby and SD22.

I think an "flanking maneuver" is worthy of considering, because it potentially would increase speed of "professional eyes on"..or "coordination" of professional eyes on.

So..SI is "triggery" and "anxiety"..even "extreme anxiety" seems easier to talk about (right?)

So..push that angle and push to quickly get in same room with therapist(s) over that.  (yes..you too..I don't trust your hubby's emotions to skillfully introduce the SI topic)

So..there you are... SD22, hubby and SD22 T in a room.  Perhaps just you, hubby and SD22 therapist with SD22 cooling her heals outside.

There is talk about anxiety..coping...etc etc etc.  Let that discussion flow.  When it appears to be winding down...this is your cue. (assuming SI hasn't been brought up by now by T or hubby)

"I'm curious if comments by SD22 such as (reference SI comment) are part of anxiety?  Those comments concern me and I want to view them from the correct perspective."

I can't imagine a T would dodge that...be prepared for follow up either way. 

Follow up questions

1.  Do those comments concern you? (to the T)
2.  How should we best respond?
3.  How should and how often should we discuss this with SD22?
4.   Is there anything we are doing now that we should STOP doing with SD22?

My concern is SI and the "speed" at which this problem is being addressed.  I'm all for "indirectness" if it increases speed and leads to "more directness" at the appropriate time.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2019, 02:09:28 PM »

Feeling a bit discouraged about all of this.

Last weekend H said "SD22 is coming on day/date, and BF will be here.

I don't know why, but I couldn't find it in me to say, "We talked about this...we agreed that you would say, 'Let me talk to LnL' and get back to you."

I remained quiet.

Ugh.

Later, I pointed out that SD25, who is working full-time, finishing her graduate degree, studying for boards, is going through a lot of stress. That maybe this isn't the best time for SD22 to come.

H said, "I can't say yes to one kid and not the other. You don't have multiple kids, so you don't understand. And if SD22 didn't come because SD25 is stressed, then she wouldn't be able to come until next month."

Bam.

Later, SD25 expressed some anxiety about SD22 coming. "Everything SD22 is anxious about with you, she is anxious about with me. I'm going through the same thing right now, except I have these six things going on, and she is only going through one."

H inserted, "I will tell SD22 that you're busy. She knows you're working hard. She's coming here to see BF and they'll keep each other occupied."

The thing is that SD25 studying is no small thing. She has enormous textbooks and lots of piles of papers, plus her computer. I've said she can use all the horizontal space in our downstairs area during the weekends so she can spread things out. I needed to do the same thing when I was going through something similar.

H's response, "SD25 is tough. She's resilient. It'll be fine."

Maybe I need to keep my nose out of this.

I know I also need to loop around and talk about this issue between me and H, about not being consulted when guests want to come. It isn't even that I would say no. I just want to be consulted. Because it's respectful! And, because it positions the home as mine when SD22 plans to visit.



I don't know how I can move the needle on any SI when I'm still trying to get some traction on the consultation about visits.

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« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2019, 02:18:23 PM »

SD22's anxiety trumps everything.  Your husband has made this clear.

SD22 is more important than SD25's critical boards.
SD22 is more important than asking you if you have plans.

So it's back to...shake things up to make him address WHY her anxiety trumps everything (the SI), ask him again why he won't include you, or fume silently and let resentment build.

I wish there was an easier fix.

ETA - I missed your last sentence.  I don't think you'll get any traction on consultations about visits until the SI is addressed.  I think until then SD22 will always "win".
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« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2019, 03:06:38 PM »

So it's back to...shake things up to make him address WHY her anxiety trumps everything (the SI)

What do you think about this: "We had a conversation about saying, 'let me check with LnL' when it comes to visits. It seems like you're having a hard time with that."
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« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2019, 03:10:35 PM »



I don't know why, but I couldn't find it in me to say, "We talked about this...we agreed that you would say, 'Let me talk to LnL' and get back to you."

I remained quiet.
 
  You don't have multiple kids, so you don't understand.  

Bam.

 
I don't know how I can move the needle on any SI when I'm still trying to get some traction on the consultation about visits.



A big splash moves lots of needles...

Ugg...

Did you pick up on how dismissive your husband is of your perspective.  

He "structurally dismisses" you..because you haven't done X..you may not participate.

Unless you can find some gumption in you to splash on SI...I would say move this to the top of the list.

Really...you can easily dismiss him by using the same logic...is that what he wants?  I would explicitly ask him that...  Make clear that you would rather walk through life learning with him..rather than dismissing his point of view...or being dismissed.

Feel free to reference me.  I have 8 kids...he doesn't, so by his own logic I "win".  You absolutely can tell one kid yes...and another no.  Life isn't fair.

Now...let FF put on my "centered" hat.  He likely didn't "intend" to dismiss you.  He also likely didn't "intend" to communicate with you in a "healthy" way.  He just wanted to solve SD22 (insert issue) as easily as possible.

You make it easy for him to solve this in dysfunction and unhealthy ways

Do you see this?

   

Best,

FF
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« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2019, 03:12:58 PM »

What do you think about this: "We had a conversation about saying, 'let me check with LnL' when it comes to visits. It seems like you're having a hard time with that."

OK..centering FF needs to show up...

"Help me understand how "let me check with LnL" was used in this last visit?

Don't assume it was or wasn't (unless he explicitly said it wasn't..which I didn't see)

Best,

FF

Note...his dismissive attitude toward you p^sses me off.  Perhaps it didn't come across that way IRL.
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« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2019, 03:25:43 PM »

Did you pick up on how dismissive your husband is of your perspective.


Yes. It felt like a slap in the face (not a typical part of our dynamic ... )

Excerpt
You absolutely can tell one kid yes...and another no.

He has said this before.

His response was panic driven, imo.

Excerpt
You make it easy for him to solve this in dysfunction and unhealthy ways

Sometimes (often) I check my emotion intensity and if it feels out of proportion, I hit pause.

I feel that way a lot when it comes to SD22. He probably does too.

I don't know if that's a good thing or not. I probably do it more than I should.

Excerpt
"Help me understand how "let me check with LnL" was used in this last visit?

To my knowledge, it wasn't used.

It's something I've raised before. It's a work in progress.

If he used it this time, then he didn't actually come to me and say, "Hey, SD22 wants to come this weekend. You good with that?"

Apparently SD22 and BF relationship is on the rocks. It will only be SD22.
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« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2019, 03:44:36 PM »

"SD25 is tough. She's resilient. It'll be fine." This is incredibly unfair to SD25, and it's probably a pattern that has been going on for years.

I have a perspective, having been that "tough" older sister. My sis, three years younger, was a very sensitive child. She was not a healthy child (colic, asthma), she got her feelings hurt easily, she cried easily, she wore her feelings on her sleeve.  I had been frequently invalidated as a young child and, as a result, learned to keep my thoughts and feelings to myself. My parents and grandmother figured out they needed to draw me out -- I wasn't going to volunteer a lot. Somewhere in all this -- comforting my younger sister while letting older sister handle what I could largely by myself -- my parents created this family myth that they "didn't need to worry about Gagrl -- she's tough and she'll be alright."

 LnL , your differentiation is resonating with me so very much. My intuition is telling me that SD25 has had her parents defer to SD22 so much, for so many years, that the family myth is well entrenched -- no need to consider SD25's needs, she is resilient, she is tough, she'll be OK. Clearly stated by your H. But how unfair to SD25! How dismissive of her needs during a critical life event.

(Maybe H should just send SD25 to a hotel for the weekend, in case he needs to really make it crystal clear.)

This is probably rhetorical, but does your H have any idea of how this looks and is experienced by SD25?

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« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2019, 03:59:00 PM »


This is probably rhetorical, but does your H have any idea of how this looks and is experienced by SD25?


This is an interesting conversation piece.

For after discussing how he kept or didn't keep his agreement and the slap in the face thing.

For the future:  "That hurts...let's put this conversation on pause for 10 minutes or so."  (then take a time out) 

Don't "suggest" how she may feel..ask him.  Stick with it..don't let him slither out.

For the future, consider a conversation with SD25. 

FF
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« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2019, 04:16:29 PM »

My intuition is telling me that SD25 has had her parents defer to SD22 so much, for so many years, that the family myth is well entrenched -- no need to consider SD25's needs, she is resilient, she is tough, she'll be OK.

This is my FOO dynamic too (uBPD brother). SD25 and I have a lot of mutual respect. I think one of the reasons she felt safe saying what she did about SD22 coming is because I was there.

Excerpt
(Maybe H should just send SD25 to a hotel for the weekend, in case he needs to really make it crystal clear.)

I am quite serious about offering this to SD25 as an option.

Excerpt
does your H have any idea of how this looks and is experienced by SD25?

No.

He might if I took the initiative and offered SD25 a place to stay so she can study.

If I were the one studying, I would check myself into a hotel on a weekend SD22 was here.




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« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2019, 04:32:35 PM »



I am quite serious about offering this to SD25 as an option.
 


Why not invite her for a "girls retreat".  Make it fun.  Find a book to read...something not very serious.  Relax..let her study.

Let hubby and SD22 hug all they want. 

The hotel is about what's best for SD25...I like this.

Note:  Don't ask hubby..inform him.

FF
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« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2019, 05:07:11 PM »

Hey, if I had grad school and a critical certification exam on the line, I'd be glad for a quiet place to double-down on studying. A girl's retreat sounds like a wonderful idea.

We talk a lot about watching for actions rather than simply listening and believing words. Maybe an action here will make a point to your H that words are getting through.
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« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2019, 05:28:08 PM »

We talk a lot about watching for actions rather than simply listening and believing words. 

What she said!

FF
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« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2019, 11:56:44 AM »

Staff only

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  The continuation is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=337838.msg13062271#msg13062271
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