Getting help for myself

[Depression = 72% of members]

As background, my husband had been diagnosed with treatment resistant major depressive disorder and PTSD (he's a first responder).  His anger, especially over the last year and a half, was out of control, so I finally gave him an ultimatum that he let me take him to the hospital or I was leaving with our two kids (10 and 4 respectively).  Credit where credit is due- he got in the car.  He spent a week in a short-term care unit at McLean Hospital and is now in a residential program there.  I had researched the anger and had thought he had many traits of BPD, but never felt comfortable asking his therapist about it because he's the expert not me.  However, the doctors at McLean told me they're treating him as if he is BPD (not sure if they've told him that yet or not).  They told me to read Walking on Eggshells and I Hate You - Don't Leave me.  I cried through both books- it was describing both of us to a t (the splitting/BPD rage/push-pull; my bending myself into a pretzel to make it better, which I now understand is so pointless).  At this point, I'm leaving his care to the professionals and am so thankful he's willingly participating. 

With that background, my question is about me - I need help to set boundaries and find the real me again.  Therapy is mentioned many times in Walking on Eggshells, and I'm all for it.  Is it important that I find a therapist that has a lot of knowledge on BPD?  We live in a teeny community, so I'm afraid that might be difficult.  I'd also honestly rather do online therapy, if that's a possibility, as it would work better with my schedule and I would probably have a bit more privacy to do so.  Does anyone have any suggestions on what would be best?

I'm so happy to have been told about those books and found this website.  I don't feel so crazy or alone anymore.

[Ray2017]

As background, my husband had been diagnosed with treatment resistant major depressive disorder and PTSD (he's a first responder).  His anger, especially over the last year and a half, was out of control, so I finally gave him an ultimatum that he let me take him to the hospital or I was leaving with our two kids (10 and 4 respectively).  Credit where credit is due- he got in the car.  He spent a week in a short-term care unit at McLean Hospital and is now in a residential program there.  I had researched the anger and had thought he had many traits of BPD, but never felt comfortable asking his therapist about it because he's the expert not me.  However, the doctors at McLean told me they're treating him as if he is BPD (not sure if they've told him that yet or not).  They told me to read Walking on Eggshells and I Hate You - Don't Leave me.  I cried through both books- it was describing both of us to a t (the splitting/BPD rage/push-pull; my bending myself into a pretzel to make it better, which I now understand is so pointless).  At this point, I'm leaving his care to the professionals and am so thankful he's willingly participating. 

With that background, my question is about me - I need help to set boundaries and find the real me again.  Therapy is mentioned many times in Walking on Eggshells, and I'm all for it.  Is it important that I find a therapist that has a lot of knowledge on BPD?  We live in a teeny community, so I'm afraid that might be difficult.  I'd also honestly rather do online therapy, if that's a possibility, as it would work better with my schedule and I would probably have a bit more privacy to do so.  Does anyone have any suggestions on what would be best?

I'm so happy to have been told about those books and found this website.  I don't feel so crazy or alone anymore.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[GaGrl]

Welcome! We are glad to have you here. It sounds as if you and your husband have made a lot of progress by getting your husband in a treatment program with a BPD diagnosis. I'm sure the professionals working with your husband will continue to help.

There are a number of people on the board who have had similar experiences with a spouse having had in-patient treatment. I believe the advice has been -- yes, it would be good for you to have your own therapist.

Boundaries are a great place to stary. If you can find a T familiar with BPD, that would be great. It might take a search.

Have you looked at the articles on this site yet?

[Red5]

Hello and welcome Ray2017,

I recommend this book too,

*Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder*

Author: Shari Y. Manning, PhD
Forward by: Marsha M. Linehan PhD, ABPP
Publisher: The Guilford Press; 1 edition (August 15, 2011)
ISBN-10: 1593856075
ISBN-13: 978-1593856076

There is a write up about it here on this website... here is the link,
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=149336.0

Kind Regards, Red5

[Ray2017]

I have been looking at different articles on the site, and I will look into that other book as well, thank you!  I can use as much help as I can get, especially in setting boundaries.  I found out, over the weekend, that he was getting into my emails and texts - he has his phone at the hospital (he thinks I talk about him behind his back and wants to know what people are saying about him.  Truthfully, I have reached out to friends for help coping, privately, I thought.  I don't know how to do that without saying what is upsetting me).  I was firm that he not do that; he agreed and was very apologetic.  Yesterday, I found I could check who was logging into my email and he's been doing it every day.  It hurts because I did believe him, but I quickly changed my password because it's up to me to enforce the boundaries.  I know he tried to log in yesterday evening and it failed; he didn't say anything to me because that would be admitting he was still doing it.   I know there will be a family counseling session next week, and I will be bringing this up, and once addressed, look into changing my text messaging info so he has no way to access it.  I'd do it now, but it's actually our wedding anniversary (16 years) and the kids and I are going to visit tomorrow and open presents (we make a big deal over our anniversary).  I don't want to ruin the day for the kids with tension.  But I'm also really done being spied on.

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear Ray2017-

Just want to pipe in quickly here regarding therapy for you.  Definitely, yes, seek help for yourself!  Your therapist should at least be well versed in PTSD, if not BPD.  Some of the behaviors can be similar?  And over the years you may have developed a bit of PTSD in response to your H’s behavior. 

Also, you may want to take a close look at yourself (I too twisted myself into a pretzel) and see which codependent tendencies you have.  It was a hard thing to be honest with myself on that one.

Things CAN get better.  And it is a great thing that your H is on-board now.  Sometimes ultimatums are the only way to go.

Wishing you the best.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Ray2017]

Thanks, Gemsforeyes.  I am completely co-dependent in many areas, and I know I have so much work to do on me.  Interestingly, the information I'm getting from the team at the residential program my H is in is they are now leaning more towards PTSD as the primary diagnosis.  From quick google searches I do see how the symptoms of BPD and PTSD overlap, which I wasn't really aware of.  Regardless, I'm incredibly proud that he's taking this seriously, but know we still have a really long road ahead.  He's supposed to be coming home on Friday, and is already texting some things that make me very defensive (he has no friends; no one will care about the he's done in the program; people will ignore him, which I know isn't totally true).  I know now to just validate and not JADE, but wow, it's easier said than done.

[waverider]

What you need to rebuild no doubt is your sense of self worth and the reality that it is you who is control of your choices. The power to say "no, I dont want to do that because I dont want to". In a diplomatic way of course. Learning not to follow that up with a whole lot of JADE will help with that.

You will hear a lot about boundaries and how they work. It sounds obvious and simple, but few really understand these, as opposed to demands. But if you work really hard on these they will go a long way to rebuilding your own personal stability

Just a word of caution, dont let the pursuit of understanding be the whole core of your life, it can become an obsession, which bites you in the bum as YOU cant fix it, only provide you with the tools to not be railroaded by it. The idea is to get your life back not martyr yourself in an attempt to cure someone else

[Harri]

Hi!

It is great that both you and your husband are willing to work to make things better.

One thing I want to mention is about validation.  I am not sure how familiar and practiced you are with it.  Sometimes it can be tricky as we can end up validating something that is invalid.  Here is an article that might help (if you need it - like I said, I don't know how familiar you are with it):  Communication Skills - Don't Be Invalidating

Glad to have you posting here and working on things.   

[Ray2017]

Things have not gone well at all since H's return.  Disregulation, rage - it's exactly the same as it was before he left.  I feel so deflated because there were so many days when he was in the residential program that he sounded good - we visited and it was like the old him was back.  But the second he walked through the door, he was his old self.  The issue, according to him, was complete lack of support, mainly pointed at a couple of friends who did not respond quickly enough (or at all) when he said he was on his way home after being away for 18 days (note: these friends do not live nearby).  After some aggressive texts, one friend told him he was done, and not in a polite way, unfortunately (same friend later texted me to confirm, but to say that he was still there for me and  the kids).  I will completely admit I was totally JADE-ing my way through the last few days (I think I did better yesterday), especially when his blame/attacks focused on me.  I would try and pull it together and then I'd find myself doing it again.  I know I need to do better.  At one point I said that I was too upset to continue the conversation and went to the bathroom for a few minutes.  This made the rage worse.  Sorry for the venting, there are questions in here:

1.  I had sent a boundary (my only one so far):  I will not be the intermediary between him and whatever person he is currently ticked off at for "abandoning" him (meaning they haven't texted in a while, or aren't providing the support he's looking for).  In the past, he's requested that I talk to said person and tell them how he feels because he/she will listen to me, not him.  I've done that 25-30 times.  It's never been to his satisfaction (though he did say yesterday one time it did help the situation, at least temporarily), and the last few times I did this, the person I was talking to told me they didn't care what I had to say, I was being manipulated and mentally abused (unintentionally, I hope) by having to feel obligated to do this and I need to stop.  So I calmly told my H about my decision and I got to witness what an extinction burst actually is!   It's been 3 days and he is still after me about it, especially as he wants me to talk to his mother, who was screaming at him yesterday that he was being selfish.  My question - is this boundary out of line?  I don't want to be necessarily cruel AT ALL.  I've lost all decision making ability and I feel like I need impartial advice.

2.  I get JADE is not helpful.  Is it JADE-ing, however, if he repeats something I said that is inaccurate and twisted from what I originally said?  Is it wrong, if you can't find anything to validate in a statement (besides "I'm so sorry that you feel that way - it must be torture" or something similar) to stay silent, and nod or something?  For example, my husband will say friends have treated him badly and done hurtful things to him, when the reality is, they just didn't text him for a bit (whether on purpose or because they're busy with their lives, I don't know).  He then sends them passive aggressive texts (or outright aggressive ones) and then says he gets in trouble, but they never have to answer for what they did to him.  I can't find an ounce of truth in there to validate.  Any suggestions?

3.  I know not to JADE, but is it appropriate to point out when he's being unnecessarily mean?  One of the things he said was for me to "finally act like a wife for once" which was insanely hurtful in the context.  I did comment that it was extremely hurtful and mean, but I didn't know if I should instead say something along the lines of "I'm sorry you feel that way".  Is it ever okay to call them out on ridiculous behavior?  Or just bear the brunt of it and try my darnedest to not take it personally?

So sorry to unload.  I felt less isolated when he was in treatment because I could call and speak with friends; now he's home 24/7 and I have no opportunity to do so (he has and I think could still be hacking into my texts; I changed my email password, so I think that's okay, but I don't trust it).

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi.

I understand what it's like to second guess yourself. That's one of the effects of living in the FOG. We are told by our partners that we are the cause of their hurt feelings, and if course we don't want to hurt them, so we do things that they say will prove to them that we love them. The problem is that the goal posts always move, the bucket is never filled, the demands get more unreasonable, and the responsibility that we take for another person's feelings grows, while the disordered person's responsibility for their own feelings diminishes. We end up running in circles and becoming exhausted and depleted.

It is not unreasonable for you to decide not to be the mouthpiece for your husband's perpetration of accusations and blame against another person for a perceived slight made against him. What he is doing is a classic karpman drama triangle, casting himself as victim, the friend or family member as persecutor, and you as rescuer.

Here is a link to an article about the karpman drama triangle:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

You also do not have to subject yourself to constant pressure to cave on your boundary. Go for a walk, go for a drive, to the store, etc, but you have the choice to remove yourself from relentless attempts to bulldoze your (very reasonable) boundary.

[Ray2017]

Thanks for directing me to the article on the Karpman Triangle.  I had read it last week, but it really resonated and made sense this time.  I am a classic Rescuer (and not just for my husband), but I know I've been in those other two positions as well.  I think reading/recognizing this has helped me detach a bit yesterday, when my H starts to vent about his family, lack of friends and my non-support (in his eyes).  I don't feel an obligation to fix it, nor did I necessarily feel overwhelmed with the "poor me, my relationship is in a bad spot and it's all his fault" (still feel sad that this is what our relationship is, currently - I'm hoping that's normal). 

I'm trying to find the center of caring and having empathy for him, while not getting myself involved (trying to help what I can't fix; validate the invalid, etc.).  A couple of nights ago, my H was shaking all over (ended up throwing up) because of the situation with his friend that said he was done (to be fair to my H - he tried to reach out to explain/apologize to said friend in a calm way; the "friend" texted back some of the most vile garbage I've read.  It upset me that he would be so cruel).  My H was upset that I wouldn't say anything to the former friend, but I did try to rub his back, not just validate but outright agree that the text was awful, and when he asked what he should do, told him that taking an Ativan/Xanex to help physically calm him down would be a good idea (he does have a prescription for those for exactly these circumstances).  Was it mean of me not to contact the friend to tell him not to spew such hateful things?
 Another example: I saw his mom last night (he's upset that she won't listen to him vent; she gets defensive very easily).  We're supposed to go to her house for dinner tonight, along with my brother-in-law, who is coming down to see his brother (my H).  His mom commented "I hope this isn't a disaster" and I just calmly told her that my H just wants them to listen to him.  Just listen.  I didn't think that was crossing my boundary line necessarily (my H did ask me to talk to her) because it seemed natural to the conversation. My H seemed okay with this information when he asked about our conversation; but this morning when she called with details for tonight, he intimated she didn't take my advice because she didn't apologize for her not listening earlier in the week.  Am I sending mixed messages?  I know I have done that in the past and I'm trying to be conscious about not doing it, but life happens faster than my brain can keep up with sometimes.

I appreciate all advice, direction to articles both in the past and in the future.  It's such a help to be able to talk about this stuff with people who get it.  

[waverider]

when you try patching things up with others on your husbands behalf. To him it doesn't really matter whether you said the appropriate thing or not, his only interest is whether he gets the results he wants. In this case he wants validation that he wasn't in the wrong ie an apology.

The problem with being given a clean sheet apology is that nothing is learned, and it normalises the behaviour

It is one thing clarifying to others what your husband issue is, but it is a different trying to get the results that he wants, for that bit is you being manipulated.

Everyone else has their own rights to act or respond anyway they like. So in the case of the friend who effectively told him to "shove it" in blunt terms, its ok to let the know what effect it had on your husband, but you shouldn't be telling them what they should or shouldn't do. They have no obligations to your husband, and their reaction would be based on compounding issues.

[Ray2017]

Everyone else has their own rights to act or respond anyway they like. So in the case of the friend who effectively told him to "shove it" in blunt terms, its ok to let the know what effect it had on your husband, but you shouldn't be telling them what they should or shouldn't do. They have no obligations to your husband, and their reaction would be based on compounding issues.

Thanks, especially for this.  I do agree completely.  I have zero problems with the former friend saying he was done - totally within his rights, and I respect the decision.  I was more frustrated with the second (vile) text the friend sent, because it took the focus off of my H's pattern of behavior with him, and just made the former friend look unhinged, now becoming the "bad guy".  Then again - is there any hope that someone with these symptoms ever truly "gets it" and understands what drove the person away in the first place?   

I have another question, if anyone can bear with me.  I think I'm improving slightly in reducing the JADE-ing (I don't catch myself doing it right away; but as the conversations continue I become conscious of doing it and do my best to stop).  However, I'm finding with detaching from taking accusations, etc. personally, I'm also feeling really cold and a total lack of empathy.  I've heard these same things said by my H over, and over, and over again for so many years.  A large part of me wants to be empathetic, but there's still a part of me that wants to tell him to shove it.  I'm hoping there's balance to be found at some point (with a help of a therapist - still looking; everyone I've tried is not accepting patients).  I'm trying so hard to listen without judgment (spoiler alert: not easy), not to be the Rescuer or Victim on the Karpman Triangle, I'm trying hard not to JADE- all at the same time.  It's like my brain can't keep up and I've lost ability to be empathetic.  Any suggestions?     

[waverider]

Then again - is there any hope that someone with these symptoms ever truly "gets it" and understands what drove the person away in the first place?   

That is one of the traits of BPD its never their fault they are always the victim.. I am sure you have had your friends texts pointed out to you, but there will be incidents going the other way that you dont know about

However, I'm finding with detaching from taking accusations, etc. personally, I'm also feeling really cold and a total lack of empathy.  I've heard these same things said by my H over, and over, and over again for so many years.  A large part of me wants to be empathetic, but there's still a part of me that wants to tell him to shove it. 

This is the real problem, and one I struggle with as the respect goes out the window too, and it shows. It simply has been drained out of you

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Ray-

I want to check in and see how things are going for you and your H.  But mostly for you.

I DO get that sometimes their “venting” over and over and over, ad nauseum just makes you want to stuff a sock in the pie hole.  This wasn’t a very nice thing for me to say, was it?  Sorry, but we’re only human.  My ears get tired, too sometimes.

Is your H working or does he have, (or did he ever have) hobbies that he can be encouraged to engage in?  Things to quiet the mind?  Mine LOVES gardening and is really good at it.  My home is the only place with space for a garden and he takes great pride in it.   

I also got him to take bubble baths and he loves them.  He’d never had a “tubby” before, and we’re 61!  When he’s feeling a bit “rough”, I fill the tub with bubbles and Epsom salts, light a few candles, place the water pillow there and he has a soak and quiet time with music to soothe the savage beast.

What kind of follow up therapy to his inpatient care has been offered?

Please keep posting for YOU.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Red5]

I fill the tub with bubbles and Epsom salts, light a few candles, place the water pillow there and he has a soak and quiet time with music to soothe the savage beast.

I just got out of the “claw foot” cast iron tub myslef...

Listened to “Asian Chill” on the cell & spreaker pod’.

Epsoms salts, and bubbles that smell like Vick’s “rub”...

I needed it... feel much better... "mindfulness”...

Getting the house settled for bed time now, going to Church in the morning...

Red5

[Ray2017]

Thanks for following up with me.  I feel bad complaining all the time with nothing to offer as I'm so new to this. 

Because he's being treated for PTSD, his employer is considering it an 'on the job injury' (he's a first responder), so he won't be cleared to return to work until an independent doctor certifies him, which will likely happen early August (BUT his employer is also paying 100% for everything, which is such a relief).   In the meantime, my H likes to play video games and occasionally play guitar - when the mood is right.  The team at the program did have him follow up with a therapist that specializes in DBT, but my H decided to stick with his old therapist.  Can't say that I was thrilled with that decision, but it's also not my decision, so I'm trying to just accept it and move on.  At some point they'll need to do further trauma therapy for the PTSD, but he said they needed to allow some time between the first two sessions he had.  Things have been a ton better this past week - some friends took an interest in him, which was nice, and I can see he's really trying.  I'm really happy with the effort he's putting in.  However, I know we'll have ups and (deep) downs and while I'm really trying to enjoy the normalcy, I'm also trying to take the time to read as much as I can to help me while I'm not an anxious mess, while not reading so much that I turn into ... an anxious mess.    I did also get a therapist to finally call me back, so there's progress as well.

Again, I really appreciate following up with me.  

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Ray-

Do any of his friends or kind of close acquaintances make music?  Where I used to live we’d have music nights... really joyous events of music making and singing.  Several guitarists, percussion instruments (bongos, tambourines, other “shakables”) and I’d print out music sheets to hand out and everyone would sing.   

I’d make a few lasagna’s and salad, we’d eat and make merry for hours.

Would your H and his friends / your family enjoy something like this?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes