Communication Patterns

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Over the years I have often gotten bogged down in conversations out of my desire to "get to the truth." Often this would end up spinning in circles with my uBPDw. The conversation would shift constantly, to the point it felt like I was trying to build on shifting sands. Nothing was ever solid, facts changed with her mood or ability of self-reflection...little did I know how "feelings dictate facts."

I would say it goes as far as gaslighting from her, changing/rewriting what occured. It even got to the point where, before I had any idea BPD could be at play, I would record our conversations to not go crazy. I would listen to them to make sure I was remembering what occurred correctly. (I will admit, I made the mistake of telling her that during one particularly off the rails episode, offering to play it back to her. whoops!)

I often detach when this sort of communication gets really bad. I go into silent mode. One book I read explained it well, "silence is an abuse victims best defense" (or something like that). I withdraw from the relationship, communication becomes utilitarian and civil but surface level only. I am not looking to change her, just to protect myself. I guess this is the best version of "low contact" I can make happen given we are married with kids.

Last night my wife asked me to hear her out. It became a 20 minute session of having to hear how poorly I treat her. She accused me of withdrawing, building a wall( She was not wrong but not right, there is grey which is hard for someone who sees in black & white). In the past she has made the accusation that my silence is abusive. She said, "I won't allow you to treat me this way." When I asked, several times, "what does is that mean?" She could not answer. I didn't engage beyond that, said good night and went to bed.

For all of you, help me think this through...

My understanding of boundaries is that what she said was not a feasible application, you cannot control another person with boundaries, you can only control how you react to another person. I had set a boundary for myself, limiting my communication based on several recent meltdown/dysregulation episodes (i.e. flipping out over a TV show/home improvement project we agreed on then she demanded to cancel it/trip planning devolved into yelling at me in front of kids about her health).

I don't have any interest in getting caught in another conversation with her that spins in circles, being screamed at in front of the kids or having to debate the facts (that are decided by her feelings). My innate desire is to have a rational conversation to seek understanding but two decades of experience have proven that is an impossibility.

What would have been SUPER helpful would have been her asking why I felt the need to limit communication or why I have put the boundaries in place in the first place. Right now I have ZERO confidence that we can have that conversation right now given her state.

Has anyone else experienced anything similar? Any ideas?  Would it be worth stating my own boundary clearly or is that just asking for trouble?

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[itsmeSnap]

Over the years I have often gotten bogged down in conversations out of my desire to "get to the truth."

You know her mind wanders based on her emotions, what if it changes in step or she doesn't even know what "the truth" is herself? What happens then as far as communication between you two?

What would have been SUPER helpful would have been her asking why I felt the need to limit communication or why I have put the boundaries in place in the first place. Right now I have ZERO confidence that we can have that conversation right now given her state.

Not talking is kinda the opposite of having a conversation. What do you think needs to happen for you to engage again with her so you can work towards having that mutual understanding conversation?

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Snap, thanks for the reply.  The idea that this could be BPD is relatively new for me (last few months) so I am still trying to wrap my arms around it. 

What happens then as far as communication between you two?

For example, she has been planning a trip with the kids to visit family.  I asked what dates she would be gone and she refused to tell me.  By the end of what I thought was a simple question about dates, she was telling me her preference would be to never come back (to our home).  I have given up asking and am just waiting for her to leave (and return?).  I chose to not engage anymore out of a need to protect myself however, she takes offense to my lack of engagement.

Not knowing about BPD characteristics and traits in the past, I am sure my communication style/patterns have not been helpful over the two decades we have been married. I just don't know if I have any interest in trying to change my interactions to "manage" her response.  Does that make sense?

What do you think needs to happen for you to engage again with her so you can work towards having that mutual understanding conversation?

I honestly don't know the answer to this question.  Every step I have take  towards her in the hope that "this time will be different" is met with the cold reality that it has never changed.  I don't trust her ability to understand me and I don't trust her ability to be honest with herself.

Currently, I feel like I am trying to limit the impact/damage she has on me and the kids.  In all honesty, it feels like I am just watching a fire burn our marriage down even though I have all the water we need to put it out.  I just need her participation/help to stop the fire...sadly, I think there are things that could help her but don't know how to get her to see that it is because I care about her, not that I think she is evil.

Not sure if that answers all of your questions, thanks for hearing me out.

Sync

[Red5]

Last night my wife asked me to hear her out. It became a 20 minute session of having to hear how poorly I treat her. She accused me of withdrawing, building a wall( She was not wrong but not right, there is grey which is hard for someone who sees in black & white). In the past she has made the accusation that my silence is abusive.

I could have written that AOoS... every word!

I have a question, have you noted that pw/bpd will often go into some type of “DID” (dissociative dissorder mode)...and when they do, you can actually note their digression in age maturity... 50* - 30* - 20’ish ?...16... and right down to age 6 !... inless than a minute... depending on the severity (add alcho) of the dysregulation.

It used to really freak me out until I learned more about how bpd is trauma based, the inner abondoned & wounded child synopsis... yeah, you don’t argue (JADE) or have any discussion (validate the invalid) with this mode of bpd... you just listen... and hope emotional does not become physical.

Red5

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Red, thanks for the message.  It is incredibly helpful to hear others have experienced some similar things. 

What I experience in the states of dysregulation and dissociation are not noticeable in terms of a particulat age per se...unless it is the immaturity of a child unwilling to admit a mistake.   

It literally JUST occured in a conversation she initiated.  My wife has been planning a trip for the last few months but has refused to commit to specific dates.  At the beginning of June she told me, "My preference would be to NEVER come back."   When I mentioned that preference just now, she denied ever saying it.

For the time being, I think she is leaving Monday or Tuesday and to be honest, I am looking forward to some down time!

[waverider]

You are not meeting her needs, by not continuing the conversation which is here avenue for projecting her dramas onto you.

She doesn't see this as you protecting yourself with boundaries. She sees it as you abusing her, simply because you are not meeting her needs.

The only consequences she can see in dysfunctional behaviour is how she is affected, not how you are being effected. This is a result of defective/absence of empathy.

Disengaging will not satisfy her, but neither will staying engaged in an escalating "debate". You cant rescue the situation, so by staying out of it you are not trying to throw rocks at an avalanche and simply adding weight to it. That is how you previously made things worse with your admission of recording the conversation.

[Red5]

The only consequences she can see in dysfunctional behaviour is how she is affected, not how you are being effected. This is a result of defective/absence of empathy.

So the best thing you can do in this circular projective argument. (for lack of better term)... “heated discussion”... is to just ‘stay with her’... validate if you can, maybe a little ‘gray rock’,  but stick it out, maybe try ‘word salad’ or ‘broken record’ techiuque... say something... but don’t make it worse (JADE)... until she burns herself out... and hope she doesn’t transition from conventional to nuclear tactics in her projective dysregulation...

There is no reasoning with her (bpd-npd)... this is a tall order I know.

I used to “fight back”... try to make her see reason, but of course I only was “throwing rocks at an oncoming avalanche”... lessons learned the hard way, because she went nuclear on me... after I emotionaly shut down and went into ‘survival mode’, which she perceived as abandonment and this triggered her punishment mode of her control...

An endless cycle...

Red5

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Rider & Red, thanks for the feedback.

I agree wholeheartedly that I am not meeting her (disordered) needs.  There is also no reasoning or fixing through logic.  I am a slow learner, 20 years in, but I am starting to get how fundamentally different our wiring (attachment) is.

Appreciate the suggestions, I am familiar with "gray rock" but will have to look into "word salad" & "broken record". 

In my conversation with her yesterday she latched on to the idea that my attempt at validating her experience was condescending...I still have my doubts if I will ever be able to do things "just right" enough to keep her "happy" (regulated?).

Thanks for the feedback
Sync

[Red5]

Appreciate the suggestions, I am familiar with "gray rock" but will have to look into "word salad" & "broken record". 

You should read this book (I found an mp3 cd on ebay)... in the book it goes into scenarios... ie’ broken record ( a form of word salad to me )... they have a write up here on bpdfam, here is the link,

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=149336.0

K/R. Red5

[Red5]

Ok, ya’ll may think I’m a bit off my rocker, but I actually did this with a degree of success...

What I mean by word salad and broken record, is when the conversation has gone way south, and your borderline is projecting onto you... validation isn’t working, so to avoid JADE, you go off on a “jag”... something like this... “you know your eyes are strikingly beautiful when you are so angry, I get lost in your glaring look, you are such a complex soul, you captivate me, when you are like this I get lost in you”...

I’ve tried it before, and one of two things will happen, my udx borderline wife would either stop her rant-rage and storm off, or she would tell me I’m crazy... anything to get her to -stop- her rage, rant, stern punishment... and demeaning of me.

It is a complete out of character demeanor that you must present, if she comes back with further negative talk, do it again, “ you my love crush my heart... such a sweet and painful sting I feel so deep within my heart... I love you with every fiber of my being, your anger is so sweet and searing to me, you intrigue me”...

Keep doing it till she stops... you can’t have an argument with an unwilling participant whom is about to burst out into romantic poetry... or starts singing the theme to Gillian’s Island...

I know it’s sounds crazy, but this “jag” did work for me... I found it very useful to keep her guessing about my own mood, but you must press the attack- maneuver-fake... once you start, you can’t let up...

She may say something like... “you need to listen to me, stop acting like this!”... “what are you doing?”... “are you drunk or high?”...

Reply with, “l feel the overwhelming urge to kiss you very deeply and fully, you drive me crazy”...

Either it will work and she will calm down, or else she may actually try to kill you...

My wife called me a crazy and disturbed person... but she left me alone... for quite a while resulatant...

Would you ever try something like this ?

Over the years, I’ve found that humor, the ability to laugh... is like light, speed... which is survival...

K/R ~ Red5

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Ha!  Now that is a funny coping mechanism Red!

I don't know if I could pull it off...i have a feeling my wife would escalate in her dysregulation, taking it as mockery.

There is truth in what you are saying in general though, that humor can mend some gaps.  Before I found BPD, I spent a lot of time reading Gottman's work on troubled marriages (we have all 4 'horseman' going in full effect! :/ ).  He speaks to 'repair attempts' in tough conversations and humor was one of his suggestions.

I think we each just have to know our audience and mine lacks that funny bone in the dysregulated state!

[Red5]

I think we each just have to know our audience and mine lacks that funny bone in the dysregulated state

I have heard as well read several times, places now... that borderlines and covert narcissists cannot process humor or genuine laughter... their just too dark inside... I’m talking hermit-queen-witch borderlines... whom have npd traits due to being in the middle and to the right on the spectrum (so to speak).

I honestly cannot tell you the last time my udx bpd wife actually laughed... ever told a joke... or thought something was even funny...

This is profound to me...

She isn’t ticklish either ?

Matter of fact... I can pin point control-punishment occurring immediately after I found something funny... or laughed about something funny...

wow : (

How about you ?

Red5

[All_Out_of_Sync]

There hasn'y been much laughter for a longntime, kind of sad really. To tell you the truth, it just feels like a black cloud of doom hanging over our interactions.   

It is especially hard for me because although I am introverted, I like to show kindness to people by engaging with them on a human level.  Just the decency of saying their name, asking how the day is going, to say something to make a cashier, clerk or waiter smile.  Just to brighten their day a bit.  To let them know they are seen as a human being...

...the problem is that if I do something simple to show a stranger kindness or make them laugh, my wife uses it against me to point out how I treat other people better than her.

Its not like there is a limited amount of decent human behavior to hand out on a given day!  The more you use, typically the more it grows.   I just tend to hand it out more readily to people that haven't proven themselves to dysregulate, lash out and allow their feelings dictate facts. 

The BPD/NPD overlap is very present in the behaviors & traits I can identify.

[Red5]

This is a fact, a “known”...

If you want to know what really lies in a persons heart, then watch how they treat others, as you say, waiters, store clerks, total strangers... fellow coworkers... etc’...

People whom can really offer you nothing else other than the interaction of a store purchase, your take out order, or such like.

Maybe you see these people regularly, or never again... but you sure can tell a persons heart in how they treat others...

My udx borderline wife is mostly pretty much a “crank” to people whom she interacts with... I cannot count the times she has made a huge scene over the damn cable bill, a takeout order that was wrong, or the poor wait staff in a restaurant... the floor nurse whom is taking care of her...

She could never just “let things go”... and she still can’t...

This is bpd-npd “in the wild”... the tinted goggles off, the “litmus test”.

The lady on the radio said the other day... we should all strive to not let things get to us, to bother us... to not be “overtaken” with angry feelings when the poor kid in the drive through got our order wrong... “tell them no worries mate, it’s good chow all the same, keep the change now, and have a wonderful day!”

My wife, no way... seems she likes nothing better then to get some poor unsuspecting sod in her sights, and then let them have it...

Seen her act like this a hundred times over the years...

The stories I could tell...

It’s sad, but it’s an indicator... borderlines can never be slighted, or crossed in any way, and if they are, you can STFB...

Yeah, she has put on quite a few grand performances over the years we’ve been together... I’ve all but stopped ‘rescuing her’...

Sometimes... I would just walk away... and Lord forbid I ever try to “move her along”... no, she is like a stray dog with a pork chop bone... you might get your face bitten off if you tried to take that bone (of contention) away,

She would say to me when I got home from work... “I had to call the ______ today because they _______ and I “yelled then out”... she said...

I can’t tell you how many local buisiness realtionships I had before we got married, that she has pretty much poo-poo’ed on... the poor guy who delivers (delivered) the water softener salt to the house every month... one day he called me at work... “Red5, what is up with Mrs. Red5 my Brother, she always lik that?”...

Yeah... wow,

... borderlines...

Red5

[once removed]

at the end of the day, it sounds like you are trying to 'win' these arguments. to get her to see and agree to your point of view.

it takes at least two people to have a circular argument. why do they happen, from our end?

some reasons include:

Cause we like to "be right" too.

Cause we can't let it go either.

Cause we need to prove our point.

Cause we are too afraid to walk away from the argument.

Cause we want to hurt them back.

Cause we feel trapped - either literally or emotionally.

Cause we hope that we can change their minds.

Cause we hope that we can get them to understand.

Cause we are co-dependent and need to "fix" them and their flawed way of thinking.

people with BPD traits hear just fine. the issue tends to be more about listening and engaging. if you came to me and told me you were hurt over something i did, and i debated your feelings or your right to them, or i bring up something else, you wouldnt feel heard or listened to.

there are a myriad of tools that can help with this. anything from the fair fighting rules, to listening with empathy, to learning to not be invalidating, our three minute lesson on ending conflict, all the way to taking a healthy time out when things have completely broken down.

withdrawing, JADEing, silent treatment, these are coping mechanisms. they are understandable coping mechanisms, often times the best we know (i used them myself). but there are better coping mechanisms.

[All_Out_of_Sync]

at the end of the day, it sounds like you are trying to 'win' these arguments. to get her to see and agree to your point of view.

it takes at least two people to have a circular argument. why do they happen, from our end?

Once Removed, 
Thanks for the reply and the willingness to voice that challenge.  No doubt, there is a lot of truth in what you wrote, for both sides of my equation

There are plenty of times i have handled the situation poorly.  What I struggle with is the boundary of participating in damaging/destructive communication pattterns.

If she says something hateful to me, yes, I want my feelings to be heard however I am coming to understand just how fundamentally different we are wired. She literally may have zero recollection, not just avoiding or denying, that those words ever came out of her mouth.  I have learned to let the topic go and move on...well, I am learning how to do that

I really like how Brene Brown describes connection as an "energy that comes out of being seen, valued and heard."  I know that I have had a hard time understanding how my wife sees & hears (really listens) to me & the world.  The truth is, she experiences the world much differently.

Currently, I am reading through Loving Someone with BPD.  I am hopeful that I can start apply more of the levels of Validation in future conversations...

Again, thank you for the input,
Sync

[once removed]

no judgment. i did all of it too, though you can see how it went for me 

the tools take practice, but you can use them with anyone. if you want to be heard, build on the good times/times of calm in your relationship. when there is trust, and calm, and we are modeling/leading a healthy relationship, and we use a voice that doesnt blame or accuse, our partners tend to be more receptive.

it sounds like youre digging into some really good resources.

[Red5]

… there are a myriad of tools that can help with this, anything from the fair fighting rules, to listening with empathy, to learning to not be invalidating, our three minute lesson on ending conflict, all the way to taking a healthy time out when things have completely broken down.

… the tools take practice, but you can use them with anyone. if you want to be heard, build on the good times/times of calm in your relationship. when there is trust, and calm, and we are modeling/leading a healthy relationship, and we use a voice that doesnt blame or accuse, our partners tend to be more receptive.

Its taken me a few years to even come to this understanding… these "tools", as once removed relates, can be used in many other relationships - acquaintances… not just our relationship with our loved ones whom are bpd…

Kind of like "military grade 'stuff' / hardware"… it has many useful applications across many spectrums, social relationships systems.

Once you look inwardly, and see things to re-wire, to change about yourself (overhaul even)… to "clean out"… there can be positive and long term, even permanent change… a win win…

It can be hard work, sobering work… to look inside and even admit that we, the non, have changes to make… new programing to install… but its certainly worth it to me.

Hang in there All_Out_of_Sync, that book you're reading, "Loving Someone With Borderline-" [Shari Y. Manning] sure helped me a whole lot… as I said, I found it on ebay, on mp3/cd… so I could drive and listen to it…

There is another book, don't be set off by the title, as in the book, the many different levels (labyrinth) of bpd (npd traits) is quite extensively explained, a "look inside"… it was on youtube for a while as an audio upload (8 hrs)… there is also a write up here on this website… the title is "Understanding the Borderline Mother" / Author: Christine Ann Lawson, PhD… link ~>
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=53779.0

When I open my mental toolbox these daze… and (metaphorically) look inside, past the couple of crescent (monkey) wrenches, a beat up can of WD40… well worn vice grips, extra large straight slot screwdriver... ball peen hammer & and the roll of 1000mph tape… I see as follows…

* mindfulness, cognitive/dialectic (operators manual)
* let go of anger - angst
* you don't have to be "right", just grounded (JADE circuit breaker)
* "radical acceptance"
* don't validate the invalid - practice SET
* a "homemade tool"… SLED -> stop - listen - engage (tools) - defend (the marriage vows, commitment, give care - empathy)
* my old (USMC issue) M-65 field jacket called "comfortable in your own skin", & "nothing bothers you anymore"
* my old zippo called "to keep warm when she is cold" - "safety and security no matter how bad it gets, build a little fire, and keep warm, and make some black coffee"
*… and my most useful mental tool (for me)… BEWARE the comfort zone

Keep on learning, NEVER stop learning… constantly seek resources ~ support, keep an open mind, stay focused & grounded… 'self-care' most important, and keep posting!

Kind Regards, Red5

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Once Removed, I agree with the idea that validation and the tools can be used to the benefit of more than just the pwBPD. I am thinking about my kids experience of all this too and how valuable it will be for me to improve validating there own reality.

Good stuff!


Red, your first recommendation for Loving Someone with BPD was excellent, you should see all the highlights and notes I've made! I'll be sure to check out the next one as well.

I love the list of the tools you have developed & rely on. I am going to save that and refer to it often. I'll let you know if I add anything!

Thank you both for sharing your insight and knowledge, I know getting to where you are has been a battle. Thanks for continuing to fight the battle along side all of us newbies ;)

Sync

[LoneRanger307]

I often detach when this sort of communication gets really bad. I go into silent mode. One book I read explained it well, "silence is an abuse victims best defense" (or something like that).

Do you recall what book that came from? I'm intrigued. This reminds me a lot of myself. I've always been known as a very quiet person, and the more I reflect back on my life I think this is a pattern I developed from growing up in a household with a hold of high expressed emotion and narcissism. People can't be upset at you if you never talk!

But the flip side for me is struggling with figuring out how to express myself more smoothly. In certain situations I tend to "chandelier" easily, most particularly when talking to my parents or my BPDh. I get pulled in to the cycle, get defensive, get my hackles up and start to raise my voice before I even realize it. Learning how to JADE, how to be more calm and even recognizing that I'm getting elevated before I go off--damn it's hard. Good to know I'm not the only one who struggles with these things!

[waverider]

This is a fact, a “known”...

If you want to know what really lies in a persons heart, then watch how they treat others, as you say, waiters, store clerks, total strangers ... fellow coworkers... etc’...

This can be misleading with BPD/NPD as they are validation junkies and often get this from buttering up strangers and acquaintances, its also what forms the basis of the idealisation phase. Of course they can't keep this up indefinitely, but then you dont need to this with passing strangers. That is unless they block their needs, eg the receptionists who wont let them jump the waiting list.

A good measure is how they treat strangers who aren't meeting their immediate needs.

[All_Out_of_Sync]

Do you recall what book that came from?

I found the quote from the book, Becoming the Narcissts Nightmare, "Again, this is not really the silent treatment or stonewalling – it is actually self-care to step away from an abuser who has been abusing you. Silence is an abuse survivor’s best friend, and it is perfect for reinforcing a boundary you’ve set."

Not quiet true when dealing with BPD traits in a way that would be helpful in the long run but yeah, part of the library I have been reading the last few years!

[halfdomemoon]

Hi all. I don't mean to derail the conversation, but this was the first thread I read on the site, and it's just amazing how so many experiences you've had resonate with my experiences. The part Red made about his wife digressing back to a child really hit home.

It's tough to express how I feel ATM. I'm relieved to hear I'm not alone; sad that others are feeling/experiencing things similar to me; worried that things won't get better; hopeful that they will.

In any case, thank you for sharing. I really appreciate it.

[once removed]

I found the quote from the book, Becoming the Narcissts Nightmare, "Again, this is not really the silent treatment or stonewalling – it is actually self-care to step away from an abuser who has been abusing you. Silence is an abuse survivor’s best friend, and it is perfect for reinforcing a boundary you’ve set."

theres a lot of self help and bpd information out there...some of it good, a lot of it unhelpful. i think that seeing things that way, or applying them that way can be really destructive for a marriage.

[waverider]

The child stage is the immediate emotional reaction.

The "teenager" stage is the defensive /denial /buck passing stage born out of insecurity and fear of blame, with an added dose of lack of empathy.

The "adult" cognitive stage does not appear until the emotions have passed, in some this can be the more manipulative stage.

[Red5]

The "teenager" stage is the defensive /denial /buck passing stage born out of insecurity and fear of blame, with an added dose of lack of empathy..

The teenager persona which is the most dominant persona my udx wife presents has a very rigid, talionic, controlling type personality... "toxic", she is an emotional vampire... a controller / punisher... always the three "D's"... *demean *devalue *destroy... you have to be a very strong person emotionally / mentally to even be around her, to be able to tolerate her behavioral mannerisms  ... wow : (

She left home at sixteen to marry her bf whom was seven years her senior... he joined the Army and they sent them to Germany... so she was escaping home... that sixteen year old persona... she never seemed to mature beyond that age emotionaly... she is a high functioning borderline... with some npd traits for good measure,

Difficult to be around, to interact with... even on a good day.

Red5