i'll try to make this quick -

[lotusblossom1]

first off - happy 4th of July! I'm trying hard to be positive today and I hope you all are too.

I'm in a 14 year marriage and three months ago my wife asked me to open our marriage up. I reacted poorly - I thought we were ok. We have a five year old and a one year old and our relationship had become very transactional. We weren't great, but this is a stressful time.

the day after (after i asked about this other friend who had become close) she told me she wanted to be with this other person - who i know, and our kids play together. i reacted poorly again, and spent a week coping the only way i knew how, then.

since then i have tried to educate myself about this situation and have found a little peace with this website and a few books. if she doesn't have BPD she certainley has symptoms.

backstory - i already mentioned the one year old. post-partum? also her uncle died 8 months ago, her other uncle died 6 months ago, her grandma died four months ago and her dads cancer has moved to his bones and he probably won't make it to christmas. also my dad told me a about a month ago that he has prostate cancer and he had his surgery two days ago and it went well. which is great!

i have been walking on eggshells for years. anything will elicit an anger response. socks left in the bathroom, dishes not in the dishwasher, etc. anything can make her scream at me. her anger has been a huge issue for me. i am from a family that never once screamed at each other - not once - and i prefer to communicate in a calm manner. she told me that her mother would talk sh!t about other mothers growing up (which i was mortified by) and when we do fight it's often like a stomping on the floor, rolling around on the ground, kicking walls way. sometimes i'll say things just to get her to calm down, and then those things come back and bite me in the butt later. she also has a binge drinking problem (like 2 or 8) and has begun to see the consequences of those actions. lastly - i was out of town (seeing my dad on the weekend he told me he had cancer) and her phone was out - i looked and shouldn't have - and saw that she invited someone over to eat weed gummies and hang out - while our one year old was at the house. completely unacceptable. she's not a weed person and has no idea how these things will affect her.

this isn't like her. she's having a mental break or flare up here and any suggestion of the sort and she will run away. we began sessions with a new therapist yesterday and she brought up the potential that this may have something to do with post-partum stuff and she almost walked out. then i brought up the fact that she's pushing away friends of 15 years when they try to tell her that im not a monster and  sucking in friends who will believe that i am a monster and believing what she's twisted into a story.

then on the way out of the therapist she brought up a mutual friend - "what are you telling R? Hmmmm?" and then yelled at me on the street for 15 minutes, downtown in a major city with pedestrians everywhere. cursing, big hand gestures, yelling the whole thing.

so what i'm looking for is the opinion of the community here. i have only read a few books and only poked around this site for a few hours, but this really seems like bpd to me. and if it's not, there are definitely some symptoms. how can i proceed here with the last damage to my kids? how can i watch her blow up our life together? she has hired a lawyer and is working hard to litigate all of the considerable equity we have built up in  our house. what can i do here?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Harri]

Hi and welcome to the board.  I am glad you found us but sorry you need to, if you know what I mean.

As you read more and settle in here, you will see you are not alone.  We have other members in similar relationships and with kids. 

It is hard to say for sure if your wife has BPD.  Regardless of the label there are definitely behavioral issues that are difficult and hurtful.   We do have tools that can help you cope better and respond in ways that will not escalate the situation.  Those tools are very effective for us and sometimes they can help lead the way for some changes in our partner.  As you post more we will be able to guide you to some specific tools that you might want to try.

how can i proceed here with the last damage to my kids? how can i watch her blow up our life together? she has hired a lawyer and is working hard to litigate all of the considerable equity we have built up in  our house. what can i do here?

How long has she been in contact with a lawyer?  Have you taken any action to protect yourself at this point?   Where do you stand on divorce at this point?

[lotusblossom1]

Yes, i am sorry too.

And yes I've read that treatment and therefore a diagnosis are next to impossible.

She has been in contact with a lawyer for approximately a month. In the papers I have received from the lawyer, he told me that I would have a month to respond. The month is up on the 11th of July.

I have talked with two lawyers, but they both told me to wait to pay/contact them until after I had been served, which will be next week. I had two approximately two hour conversations with both of the lawyers.

Divorce - I do not want a divorce. I am from a divorced family and believe that my own issues are a result of the divorce. As i've read, this is common for people in my situation and i've also read things about protecting myself first, but I am a lower priority on my own list than my kids. I understand that two people in an unhappy marriage are also not great for kids, but I don't think we'll always be this way. Our lives had been fine (+/-) for years before this. Were there hints of this looking back? Yes. Drinking issues? Yes. Anger? F yes. But I didn't think that they could be part of a larger thing (BPD) and when I started reading about this and looking back, it became obvious to me. Without going too deeply into it, I believe this has been slowly destroying my/our lives for many years.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi -

I’d also like to welcome you to our community and reiterate that the communication tools here can be very helpful when speaking with our partners with BPD traits.  In your situation, I would begin with learning NOT to JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain).  We can talk more about that later.

I am very sorry for the sadness and pain that brings you here, especially with young children in the mix.  It’s clear that you’re a very loving father, husband and son.  I’m also very sorry for the loss that you and your uBPDw (undiagnosed BPD wife) have experienced recently.  And I’m hoping that your dad will fully recover following his recent surgery.  You have been through it.

So just to clarify...  even though your uBPDw has met with an attorney and you have received some legal papers (what were they if not service for divorce?), you and your W started joint therapy a few days ago?  How did this appointment come about and Is a follow-up therapy appointment scheduled?  If no joint appointment, perhaps you continue on your own to gather all the support you can.

What led your uBPDw to contact an attorney to begin with?  Was there some pivotal event / dysregulation you can pinpoint?  Do you think there’s a third party involved?  Sorry to ask painful questions.

Your post is pretty full, which is good, but I’ve already inundated you.  However I do want to tell you that it’s ok for you to establish boundaries around certain behavior that you’re willing or unwilling to withstand.  And being publicly berated does not have to be one of them.  Your boundaries represent your values.  You ARE permitted to kindly state to your W that you’re sorry she feels a certain way; and you’ll be glad to calmly listen to her feelings in a private setting when she calms down.  And walk away.

Finally, it’s okay to place yourself on even footing with your children if this does have to move to divorce.  Your babies deserve to be in a safe environment, and you’re the leader here.

Please keep posting.  This is a very safe place for you.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[lotusblossom1]

gems - thank you for your kind words. your gentle and caring manner (perceptible even on the internet - which as you know is rare!) have brought me some calm. thank you for that.

and yes, we started joint therapy. i approached her with it with the intention of working on our co-parenting. of course i was not being totally honest because i wanted to work on the marriage - but i was very clear with the therapist about this before our first session. i told her what i just mentioned, and also talked about my lack of trust with her. i said to the therapist that we would of course need to touch on some of the things she had done and said if we were ever to get to a place where i could believe that she would show up, not put our kids in any sort of danger, and just plain be honest.

she did go back to therapy with me, but after i pointed our (shouldn't have) that she has been gathering her own negative allies (all of whom she has had on again/off again relationships with for years) and pushing away friends of 15 years who have tried to talk some sense to her, she accosted me in the elevator and began a 15 minute fight on the street. then when we got home and had some 4th activities to attend as a family, i told her i missed her. then she said she couldn't be that person that she is sometimes when i speak to her like i did. she was the aggressor in the fight? she was the one slamming her bike around and screaming like a child at 9 am downtown in a major city? but how I speak to her is the problem?

yes, there was a pivotal event. she had deep feelings for another person, and asked to open our marriage. she isn't able to disconnect her feelings from who she is now convinced she is. she felt these feelings and has now told me, many many times, that it's a 'truth'. she feels she has no control over these feelings. it's out of her hands. in the last therapy session she likened our divorce to a project. she's a project manager at work and was kinda like "this is my project - to get a divorce' like i/we are a thing to check off a list. the third party is this other woman (who she said she had cut off contact with, but later admitted in therapy that they're still on several group texts together) and these negative allies who are trying to be friends, but who have all had their disagreements (sometimes huge) over the years. to complicate things more, i work with a few of their husbands...

i believe your paragraph about boundaries, but i am very low on my priority list right now. my kids have to be the top. i have done some things to take care of myself - i ran 8 miles yesterday! - and last year i struggled to do a 5k, and am down 40 lbs. Not in a healthy way, but still am feeling good about that.

thank you again for your words, and thank you for your clarification about the acronym! i had been trying to decipher those for a few days now!

thanks for listening too

[lotusblossom1]

anybody else?

I would super appreciate the opinions of the community here.

Apologies if I have offended anyone or if somehow violated a rule of the community here.

[Ozzie101]

Hi! Welcome!

Like Gems and Harri, I'd like to welcome you to the family and say I'm both glad you're here and sorry your situation brings you.

You are in a tricky situation, I know. It's so difficult to wrap your head around, isn't it? In my case, my marriage and relationship seemed just fine for two years (though, looking back, I can see some red -- or at least pink -- flags). Then, a series of stressful events led to about six months of dysregulations, including verbal and near-physical abuse. While we don't have children together, I can identify with much of what you've said. Feeling what seemed to be a strong marriage exploding was a horrible, bewildering experience. Thank goodness for the other members and tools here.

I can definitely appreciate your need to protect your children. But, you can't neglect yourself and your own boundaries, either. You know how on an airplane they say you need to put your own oxygen mask on before you help others? It's like that. If you're not healthy, how can you really help your children?

There's a lot going on for you right now and a lot to deal with so maybe we need to break it down a bit? If you could point to one particular area or aspect you want to improve, something that's causing the most trouble (communication problems, legal worries, etc.), what would it be?

[lotusblossom1]

Yes, I understand. I can break it down a bit.

I guess first, and least likely - is that she will recognize that she is making these decisions from a compromised position. I'm not ruling out (and neither is our new therapist) that this is a post-partum issue. This all started when our second baby was 9 months old. And after her uncle died, and her other uncle, and then her grandma. And her dads cancer came back. She kinda isn't willing to touch that, and can't see that all those things (also including our close friend losing a baby at 24 weeks) may have had more of an effect on her than she thinks.  Before all this happened she was just talking about how tired she was all the time... But she won't touch these things or even come close to admitting she was wrong or that it's affecting her in any way.

Also we have a meeting with our new therapist tomorrow and I'm going to try so so hard to mostly keep my mouth shut. So I'm concerned with my own ability to do that.

And we've been married for 15 years. There have been red flags the whole time, and i guess i was so blind to them that I chose not to deal with them. Just thinking "that's just how she is?" Which i now see as flags of any color, of course.

And I do feel healthy - i feel ok. Like I mentioned I am much lighter than I was and am running. I ran 20 miles last week! I've found when I feel like saying something to her, if I run I don't want to say it when I get back. Running is hard and it sucks. But I need it now. Mentally - this has been going on for three months now and I'm beginning to touch the fact that I really might be alone. Not alone, but unmarried. That was initially scary but I've had some time to think about it and get used to the fact that it might really come true.

Thanks for your reply Ozzie. I hope I've cleared up some things.

[Ozzie101]

It is very frustrating dealing with someone who can't/won't acknowledge the part they play in the problems.

That's a lot to happen. As I said, a series of close-together stressful and emotional events really triggered my husband and I know other members here have experienced the same thing.

I know you've been doing some couples therapy (which a lot of pwBPD won't even agree to, by the way), but have you tried solo therapy? There's a certain freedom in that -- the ability to speak your mind and not have it come back to bite you later, someone who can focus on you and help you do what you need to do.

I guess by healthy, I didn't necessarily mean physically (and good for you for running!  I'm a walker myself -- bad knees "run" in my family and I don't want to tempt fate ) but emotionally. Feeling strong and secure in yourself, having the tools you need to respond to the situation with your wife in a healthy way.

As you're aware, you can't control her. You can't make her see her role in this. You can't make her want to change. That has to come from her. What you can do is change yourself and the way you react to her or the way you handle situations. When I came here, I was completely unaware that things I was doing were actually making the situation worse. I was doing a lot of JADE-ing, enabling, etc. But when I started using the tools shared here and listening to advice from fellow members and my own therapist, I was able to start changing my own attitude and my learned behaviors. I learned about boundaries. I started practicing techniques like SET (support empathy truth). I became mentally and emotionally stronger. That really did start making a difference in my relationship.

Anyway, that's been my experience and what has helped me. Does that make sense? Do you think solo therapy or practicing some new communication techniques might be helpful in your situation?

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear -

I apologize for my delay in responding to you.  Please know that you absolutely did NOT offend or violate any community rules.  

I’ve been thinking, and in addition to again suggesting that you begin learning NOT to JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain); I want to point you to something that served me very well this weekend through Tuesday.  At the bottom of this page under “Relationship Tools” the first item is “How to Stop Reacting”.  That deals with Triggering, Mindfulness and Wisemind.  After the first article, please hit the green button where it says READ MORE.

Something moved me to re-read the Triggering and Mindfulness section on Sunday afternoon, as uBPDbf (undiagnosed BPD boyfriend) was taking a nap.  He had been running me around, physically and emotionally, during his visit all day and I was feeling very unsettled and off balance.  Later that night his verbal intensity increased a bit and when he was about to pick up steam, I lifted the palm of my hand toward him from across the room and quietly said “uh uh, no please”.  And he stopped.  My action was exactly what you would say to a four-year old child, because that’s who he was being.  It worked beautifully and he went to sleep.

On Tuesday he did something else, and since Mindfulness and Triggering were still fresh in my head, I did not react then.  In thinking through what he said and discussing this with my T, I may need to leave the relationship.  But the readings helped guide me through two difficult and separate situations.

I felt this was important to relate.  Now back to you...

Regarding boundaries, I want to clarify.  Boundaries are not a matter of placing your children “on the top” of your priorities, that goes without saying.   Your boundaries reflect your values.  Example:  NO public berating- So getting back to the day when your uBPDw screamed at you publicly on the downtown street, that is a NO.  Again, you are permitted to kindly yet firmly state to your W that you understand she may feel upset and you’ll be glad to listen to her concerns in a private setting later when she calms down.  And then you walk away.  YOUR personal value and your personal boundary is that you do NOT have to stand in public while she screams profanity-laced insults at you.  

Another boundary (and law) would be that she is NOT to drive a car with the children in it after she has consumed any alcohol.  And yes, this boundary does prioritize the welfare of your babies.

You are permitted to draw a thick line in the sand around certain behaviors.  Maybe that’s a good way to look at how YOU set boundaries.

It is always difficult if not impossible for pwBPD (people with BPD) to accept responsibility or accountability for much;  and the break down of a relationship... the end of a long-term marriage?  Hardly.  So naturally she’s got to alienate those who try to reason with her.  She cannot hear that she’s doing wrong.  Not unless it somehow occurs to her.  To pwBPD, if you try to point out that something they’re doing is incorrect, “bad” or “wrong”, they take it to mean they are “all bad”, a “bad” person.  So when we as the “nons” are working to help our pwBPD change certain behaviors, we’ve got to use care in how we request those changes, or how we point out unacceptable behavior.  And yes, it IS exhausting!

I’m sorry, I know this is hurtful.  Does your W believe she will actually have a relationship with the other person if you get divorced?  Does or did the other person (this is a woman, right?) feel romantically toward your W?  If this person is a woman, has your wife expressed feelings for women in the past?  Has there been any infidelity during your 15-year marriage?  It doesn’t sound like it, since it seems your W asked for an open marriage prior to acting on any of these feelings.  

I’m kind of wondering... can’t do that out loud since we’re not actually talking, but why did she accelerate from open marriage to divorce?  Can we look at this transition?  This “project” as you call it?

One thing to understand, and this was a hard concept for me to grasp, is that to pwBPD Feelings =Facts.  If they feel it, it is true.  Regardless of what actually IS.

The other thing I wanted to bring up today is the post partum question.  I’m not sure that with all the loss that happened immediately following the birth of your second child a year ago, there would be any way to know.  The baby comes, four months later dear Uncle 1 passes, two months after that dear Uncle 2 passes, two months later grandma passes.  And then her dad’s cancer returns (poor prognosis) and now your dad becomes ill (with good prognosis, thankfully).  So how does anyone process all this loss?  Much less someone highly sensitive with BPD traits AND whose hormones are out of balance due to pregnancy and childbirth.  

How did uBPDw bond with the baby?  After the passing of these family members, were you and your W able to take time to properly grieve these sad losses?

... (sorry this response is so long)... how often does your wife engage in binge drinking?  When she does this, is she home or out?  Are there certain circumstances that normally precede her binge episodes?

Finally.  You have 2 beautiful children who need you.  I know this is difficult and so so sad.  Please be kind to yourself.  Self-care is important and so is finding joy whenever possible.  Remember to be joyous with your children, even if uBPDw cannot.

Next steps?  Your thoughts?  We can break this down into smaller pieces if you want... I’m sorry this is so loaded.  And yes... please make sure there is someone in your life who is listening to your whole truth.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[lotusblossom1]

ozzie-yes it is very frustrating. and the most frustrating thing is watching this all happen - our life together falling apart and her obliviousness to the (potential) damage done to our kids. it's not on her radar - this is all about her. she has said more than once - 'it's my life!'

And yes, same here - a series of close-together stressful and emotional events really been triggering.

And yes, I have been in solo therapy since August of last year. I've found it emotionally challenging - i haven't realized how my own habits and other miscellaneous problems have altered my experience, in an overall fashion. I didn't realize how much help I needed. I just didn't see it. I turned 40 last year and it really messed me up. I sort of withdrew from our relationship for a bit, and I know that has had a large part in her emotional state. Basically I had my midlife crisis.

Health - My body changing has been incredibly powerful for me. I've never been overweight, but i've never really been a healthy weight. This has given me confidence in ways I never expected. I run with my shirt off now (wether it's pleasing is up to you? hah) and that has been an incredible confidence booster. I know it sounds dumb, but I have never really had confidence in my body, and now I have it. It's given me a new sense of 'sexy' which may sound weird, but it has. And that confidence has made its way into my life in a way I didn't expect - sort of the same way I realized in my own therapy that some habits and thoughts permeate my life and effect me all day every day. It's like that, but positive.

Reactions - Yes, I have read a few books and put what i've learned there into action. I have been very clear about when boundaries are being crossed. Example - she has been going to bed at like 9 for months. She went to our friends house last weekend and said she'd be home 'not too late'. I texted at 11, she didn't text back, then told me to 'relax, its fine' and 'i'll be home soon'. I texted back that this behavior was unacceptable, and since then she's kept me in the loop about times that she's coming and going. I've found that being very clear has worked.

I'm also coming to terms with her low emotional intelligence. This kind of thinking is new to me. She has told me that 'she didn't expect my reaction', and expected me 'not to believe her', specifically about her telling me she wanted to open the marriage. She didn't think I would believe her. This is my wife of 15 years. And she didn't expect me to react poorly or thought I wouldn't believe her? There are so so many more examples, but this is one that illustrates my point pretty well. Also the childlike reactions play a part in this too. As I mentioned, the fight in public after our first session with our new therapist. Screaming in public and slamming her bike up and down on the ground...

I will re-read about SET. I'm curious about the truth part though. Truth is subjective right?

Finally - yes, your post makes sense. I appreciate the suggestions about my own therapy, and have begun the new communication techniques, and as i mentioned have already seen results. Thank you so much for your input, and I'll look forward to our next communication. Thanks again.

Gems - Thank you for the clarification - and the knowledge about not violating and policies. I don't post on chat groups ever really, and I know these places sometimes have unspoken rules that newbies like me don't really know about. Thanks for that.

I will check out the tab at the bottom of the page when I'm done writing this. But just from the acronym description, I can tell that that will not work for me. This is sort of how i've argued for many years, and as soon as I try to say anything in my favor or explain my viewpoint, I'm heavily criticized for being defensive. It has been that way for years. Years and years. Her yelling at me, me trying to explain and getting nowhere, expect for her destructive angry response.

I love the idea of dealing with my wife like a child. Maybe that sounds crappy, but so many of her actions are so childlike. I have detailed some above - public fights, screaming and rolling on the floor in the middle of the night, etc - and her emotional responses to things are like that too. I romise to read that section.

Boundaries - yes i understand. it's so hard to walk away, especially when they are lying to your face - about you. i have been trying to think of her as an ill person - someone who is at the mercy of an imbalance inside of her. That has helped me feel like it's all not really about me. She (for years and years) has always had an enemy. Close friends, bosses, other close friends, etc. Now it's my turn to be the enemy, i guess. And I like the thick line analogy. A big thick line that she won't be able to cross unless I allow it. That gives the power to me. I like it.

She is not hearing what she's doing wrong - exactly. She said in our second new therapist appointment yesterday that she had told the neighbor lady when they went on a run yesterday. Then I asked her who else she had told, and she had told all the other parents in the neighborhood. I have been to parent events with our kids, that she has sent me to with them, and she told them OUR biggest problem, and most personal issue - without telling me. She's made me a fool. I asked her to explain this action to me, and she didn't care at all. Not one bit. She said "you can tell whoever you want!" and screamed. She's caused more hurt with that than with many many other actions she has taken in the last few months, and somehow it's my fault because I should have told them? Our most personal issue? I don't expect that to be surprising to people here, but as this is new to me, it was mystifying. I know I've said it, but this is my wife of 15 years.

Alcohol - she has stopped drinking, and of course has weaponized that. Whenever it comes up - i went out for a night the night before my dads surgery - I get an attitude like 'it scares me when you go out drinking'. I hadn't been out for weeks before that. She's high and mighty because she's been able to control herself for three months, but for YEARS before that when she would go out I would never know who was going to come home. A controlled, gentle person, or a stumbling drunk who has put herself in danger walking home wasted, and therefore put our family in danger.

Yes. it's exhausting.

I do not think she believes she will have a relationship with the other person - a married women with two kids of her own (her husband is ok with it) - but i can't rule that out. When I asked her to "cut off all contact" with this woman, she called her and they decided to check in in August. Which of course is not what I asked. Then in our first new therapy session, she told me that they have been on several group texts with her this whole time, and they've been texting to make sure they're not in the same place at the same time. So to answer your question, I can't trust her or believe anything she says, because even when I try to get her to be honest, I later find out that she isn't honest. Even a little. And no infidelity that I know about. But I know she looks at lesbian porn. I believe this falls under the 'feelings are not facts' part of this disorder. She has said many, many times 'I can't unfeel these feelings'. I don't believe that because she had deep feelings for another woman that that means she is gay. I believe it means she had deep feelings for another person, who was emotionally available to give her those things when I wasn't really (midlife crisis).

I believe she accelerated the situation because that's what bpd people do. She's always looking to one up the next person, and has admitted many times that she has a 'mean girl' inside of her that's always looking to win. When she gave me the papers she said 'one of us has to make this decision' and she did it. Almost all of my family members have told me to leave, but I didn't believe them, and continue not to believe them. Her friends, and family members - who know nothing about our lives and what it's like to have two kids under 5 - i assume have told her the same thing. She believed them. I didn't. It's worth it. As I mentioned the lives of my kids come first. And it's also a childlike reaction - you stole my ball, I'm gonna steal yours even worse! My life has been punctuated by her reactions to things like this.

Feelings do not equal facts. I believe we all can agree on that.

Post-partum - yes, I agree. It's highly doubtful that anyone would be able to process any of this all happening at once. Which is just another reason that makes this even worse. She isn't willing to touch that she may be making decisions from a deficit. She won't even try to see that she may not be in a good spot. She has admitted to certain feelings - shame guilt, a feeling of emptiness - but won't think about how those have gone into her decision making process. Refuses.

She bonded with the baby ok. I have bonded with the baby tremendously. She is so cute and happy. We also had a traumatizing (for me) birth. We had to use petosin because she was 10 days late, and came out very quickly. We ended up in the NICU for a few days and it was terrifying for me. We had two sets of friends who had kids under 28 weeks and had 6 month+ NICU stays. I assumed that's what was going to happen with our baby too. I did not, but I had left to get lunch, and when I came back the baby was gone. I believe (wether this is BS or not is up to you, it might be) that the first night she was alive, was the night she bonded with me. I could hear she was having breathing troubles (that's why she was admitted to the NICU) and held her and listened to her breathing all night. Skin to skin for hours and hours. Then the next day I left for lunch and she was gone. We had a visitor who was the mother of one of the NICU stay kids, and that PLEASE READed me up. She was in the NICU and this woman who had an 8 month stay was right there in front of me. This, looking back, was the beginning of my midlife crisis. I'm always someone who has needed sleep, and I was so low on sleep and energy that it really got under my skin. But to answer your question - she was fine with her, but I feel like the main parent to both our kids. She will get super excited when she sees me, and doesn't have the same reaction with my wife. Have we had time to process the losses? No. Our friend lost her child a week before she told me she wanted to open this up. She has mentioned that she's dealing with it in her own way, but I don't believe it. Why would I believe it? It's a huge loss, and not something that can be dealt with in a short amount of time. No one can deal with it in a short amount of time.



How often binge drinking - I would say once every two months. But like I mentioned, she's like a two or twelve drinker. There is no 4 drinks for her. I realize that this does not fall under the typical BPD diagnosis, but I believe her to be a fairly high 'invisible' bpd. And she drinks out of the house.

And I am being joyous with my kids. They are the only thing that makes me happy now! Not the only thing, but they bring me the most joy out of any of my other hobbies or friends. It's heartbreaking that this illness will probably mean an end to our family unit. I wish I could make her see.

Truth - my mother is the sh!t. She listens and knows the entire story - even the super ugly parts that I haven't posted here, and yes there are some other things involving alcohol and kids that are super ugly that i'd prefer not to go into. They are her most personal things, and I won't betray her in the ways that she has betrayed me by telling anyone her most personal issues. I know that that would not be right, so I won't and can't speak about that. But my mother has been my sounding board and has read two of the books i have asked her to read. She believes my ideas about my wifes bpd - yes i know she will always be on my side forever and ever, and is a totally biased advocate - but as we reviewed the books together over facetime, there's something that fits my situation on every page. Not every two pages, but every page. Every page. This is not a coincidence. Sorry off topic - my mother listens to me and loves her all the way. I want to be that for my wife. I really do,, but I've been twisted into something I'm not.

Super duper lastly - we have had many of the same friends for many years and people are kind of picking sides. As I mentioned she's pushing away friends of 15 years for ones that believe the lies she's telling about me. How can I be expected to be socially friendly with people who don't know even a quarter of the story, and are staying by her? I understand they're trying to get her through a hard time, but what they're doing is enabling her terrible behavior and backing up her inability to take responsibility for any of her own actions. I feel like her whole social network and her family (excluding her brothers, who won't talk to her anymore) have failed her, and therefore me and our family. This issue is what I'm having a very hard time with at this moment. Any advice on this would be very appreciated.

And talk about a long post holy crap! Thanks again all

[lotusblossom1]

super lastly - my wife is very suggestible. VERY suggestible. I have not been able to find any info on BPD and suggestibility. Is this a symptom that other people have experienced or is it just me?

thanks again

[lotusblossom1]

anyone else?

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi -

Sorry about going quiet on you.  It’s been a trying week and although I plan to reply more fully tomorrow, actually later today, I want to respond to just a few areas.

First regarding JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain).  The advice is NOT to engage in JADE when communicating with our pwBPD.  They are attuned to this “defensive” style of communication and as you noted, do NOT respond positively with this style. When you have a chance, please read through the section on learning NOT to JADE.

Second, “Alcohol”.  Okay, so she’s not imbibing now.  Good on her for that.  You’re still entitled to enjoy yourself with friends on occasion.  What I might suggest is that rather than emphasizing that you’re going for “drinks”, simply state you’re meeting the guys for a game of pool (or music, sports talk, job talk or whatever) for a few hours.  Perhaps the words/ description YOU use up-front can de-weaponize the fact that you’re going to have any alcohol.  As you learn her triggers, you can develop actions and words to avoid land mines later and ruin the nice evening.  And arrive home sober, i.e. de-buzz and eat a mint before you arrive home.

For Clarification - to the “non” (us), you are correct, Feelings do NOT equal facts.  To pwBPD Feelings DO equal Facts.  And our pwBPD will often ALTER their narrative to meet their feelings.  Often that’s why it can seem so hard to get at the truth.  So... their feelings are FACTS , no matter the real truth.  It’s a difficult concept to hold onto, I know.

Finally, when you ask about “Suggestibility”, do you mean she takes on the interests or characteristics of those she’s interested in?  If so, this is known as “Mirroring” and yes, it is very common with pwBPD.  For information on mirroring, go to the GROUPS, PSYCHOLOGY, BEHAVIORS, MIRRORING.  Sorry that I’m not able to link for you.

More tomorrow, my friend.  Oh!  Also, pwBPD generally have a complete lack of understanding boundaries.  So the fact that she’s spilling the beans on very personal things to anyone in the neighborhood who’ll listen?  Try not to take that too personally (hard, I know); but that’s another component of emotional immaturity.  She’s got “news” and simply must share it.  Lack of impulse control with no thought of what it really means or how it may affect you.  Intelligent neighbors and friends will realize how inappropriate she is being, so please try and not lose sleep over this.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes  

[Gemsforeyes]

And ...

If you’re comfortable, let’s talk about your “mid-life crisis” a bit more.  I’m not clear on what transpired there, or how that relates to your W’s deeper interest in the female friend.  Also, is this the first time your W has expressed any romantic interest in a woman or any other person for that matter?  What were YOU doing (or not doing) when this new interest rose to the surface?

Perhaps there is something we can get at here before she moves this thing too far toward divorce.  I’m hoping there is good work to be done.  And so so much of it can happen with changing how WE communicate, process and behave.  Our partners are highly sensitive; but in many instances so are we.

Gems

[lotusblossom1]

Thanks again for your words gems.

I am also not drinking. It's ok, I don't mind and I feel pretty good. Our new therapist asked us both not to drink while we were in therapy with her, and I want to honor her wishes. Good tips though, for sure.

Feelings - facts - Yes, totally. I'm realizing that this is a huge thing for her. As I mentioned, she said many times 'I can't un-feel these feelings!' Feelings for another person does not mean that you need to alter who you are, or you know, damage your family. And yes, she has completely altered her narrative to fit her feelings. The last few times we've been able to talk calmly, she has focused on the previous problems in our marriage, and not her sexuality. She's realizing that that wasn't going to get her what she wanted, and switched it to something else. Also in our last therapy session she said she was 'pretty sure' she was more gay than straight. All this for 'Pretty sure?" There are other examples of this too, but I won't go into them.

Suggestibility - I read about mirroring, and that's kind of it. We have a neighbor who 'got sober' (big air quotes - she still smokes weed all day) and figured out she was gay. And that's exactly what's happening here. Also several other things - she told one of her oldest friends that she was identifying as queer, and her friend said "well what are you going to do about it?', also one of our other mutual friends told her she wasn't surprised we were getting a divorce, because we fought all the time. We did fight during her wedding, and she has held onto that hard, and also they've grown apart and I believe she has her own reasons for wanting to be better friends with my wife again.

Something else - I found out the other day, and today, that she has basically been telling everyone we know that we are getting a divorce. Like friends that we've hung out with 10 times... Telling everyone. I asked her to stop telling everyone, and she said she would not. I asked if people were bringing it up or if she was bringing it up, and she said that she was bringing it up. She's telling people without being prompted, my/our biggest and most personal issue? This is not ok at all, and she just won't stop? I asked kindly, and was shoved away, and made to feel that my feelings did not matter. Just realized I wrote that in my previous response. Oops. Still angry about it I guess. And I just saw your response. I would like to not be losing sleep over it, but it's so hard. I feel like she's burning my bridges, without me knowing. And this - YES - "Lack of impulse control with no thought of what it really means or how it may affect you.  Intelligent neighbors and friends will realize how inappropriate she is being, so please try and not lose sleep over this."

Mid-life crisis - I turned 40. I remember when my dad turned 40. He was a doctor, had a big house, girlfriends (parents divorced when I was little), etc. I did not have these things. I felt like I was wasting my life, hadn't done enough with my time, was a failure, etc. We had a fresh baby and I started sleeping in the basement. It sucks down there, but I justified it by telling myself I needed more sleep, and I did. But it didn't really work, and I was hanging out and drinking more than I probably should have been. This is when the other woman stepped in. She was available to be there for my wife when I felt like I was failing, and having a hard time with anxiety and depression. I kind of removed myself from the family unit. I still took care of the kids a few days at home by myself, but I wasn't feeling very good. What was I doing? Making strides in my own therapy, and addressing things that had me in that spot last summer. She felt like since I was getting somewhere I would be able to handle this news. At one point she suggested polyamory and knew that I wasn't 'evolved enough' to be into it. Evolved enough? She also said that if our relationship was good she wouldn't have had to examine these feelings. Emotional immaturity is MF right.

I'm hoping there's work to be done too. I've been working on validating her thoughts and listening to her calmly. She mentioned missing my family today, and I got to say 'this is a consequence of your actions' and she actually heard me. She did. She also had this thought that was shocking to me - a while back she said "i don't want to be in charge of your emotions" or something like 'i don't want to be responsible for your happiness' and it was shocking because while she has always been a part of my happiness, she is not the whole thing! Why would she think she is the only reason I am happy? Just more emotional immaturity I guess. Anyway, when I said the consequence thing, I got a text later that said 'thanks for listening to me earlier'. I believe that these communication techniques really will work, and they worked today!

I am going to review the communication tips in the eggshell book now. Thanks again gems for you r response. I appreciate your time.

[lotusblossom1]

i did see a thanks post for gemsforeyes the other day, and i'd like to second that!

your words have been very helpful to me!

Thank you!

[ChTown]

Hi,
Wow...i see a lot of my relationship with my BPDh in your relationship with your wife--crazy how they're all so similar, right?

I've found when I feel like saying something to her, if I run I don't want to say it when I get back. Running is hard and it sucks. But I need it now

I run, too (to keep my sanity). I hate it. I love it. But, like you, it gives me an oomph that I didn't have before, and clears my head. Running is about me, my ability, and my health. Keep it up! I'm slow, and I run short distances, but i'll get better.  High five for doing something for yourself, friend!

My BPDh is also a binge drinker; like your wife, there is no "4 drinks"--there is 4-10. It's awful, and as i'm sure you've noticed, it affects their moods greatly.

I'm so glad you're here--as you've seen, there are members that have a wealth of information, and a way of calming our nerves simply through words. It's a great place. Then, there are some of us that can sympathize--which, I find just as helpful.

Please know that you're not alone in this.

[lotusblossom1]

thanks Chtown!

Are you in Chicago? I am!

Let's do a run! I did 8 miles the other day and it felt awesome.

[lotusblossom1]

also - i asked our therapist (new one) about my suspicious about BPD. guess what she said - "so what?" so what? I said "so what? it gives us tools to deal with her in a different fashion, and allows us to continue on  the same page." She kinda shrugged.

Are you in therapy ChTown? Have you had any experiences like this? To be honest, I don't know how to proceed with this therapist. I see you're new here too, and am of course looking for more info about alllllll of these topics.

Thanks!

[ChTown]

Hey,
Not in Chicago--the 'htown'= Houston.  

I've been in therapy for about 11 months. I started after a huge split my BPDh had while we were on vacation. It was 4 hours of him berating me, scaring me, saying just awful things--most likely triggered by his massive alcohol consumption. When we got home, I made an appt with a therapist. I found out (but I had suspected) that I was codependent and an enabler. I was not surprised. It has helped me immensely in setting boundaries and...knowing my own self worth.

My BPDh is NOT in therapy. I told him on Sunday that he needed to get some help. He struggles with anxiety, in addition to (or combined with) BPD. I've told/asked him a million times--over the 14 years we've been together, he's been in/out of therapy, in/off of meds. He tends to go to the doctor, stay on meds for 2 months, then decide he's better and stops. It's a vicious cycle.

[lotusblossom1]

Hello again ChTown.

Glad you're in therapy. Guess how long I've been in therapy? Also about 11 months! I like it, and it's interesting and even kinda fun to see what the roots are of my own issues and begin to address them. We know we have our own problems, and are willing to try to figure them out. But, SO's with this disorder (as you know) refuse to look at this. Also we'll be married 15 years in August.

Something that's been surprising to me when I have been looking back, is that I really have been making excuses for her for many many years. I never really thought of them as excuses, but that's what they were. We have two young kids, and I thought 'oh, its just because she was/is stressed out' or 'we've been stressed in the car for a few days' or 'she isn't getting much sleep right now'. These seemingly small things, I see now, have added up over the years. I wasn't willing to look these things right in the face because I was scared to upset the balance. Non-BP's don't say anything when stuff is good, right? Because we don't want to risk the wrath? I wish I would have seen this all much earlier.

Soo, I have been suspecting this, but is what I just described co-dependency? Also am I an enabler? Or have I been one? To be honest, I've been focused pretty hard on the symptoms of her illness and haven't completely absorbed my own role in this. I'm guessing that both are true. CHTown, have you been able to come to terms with your role in this? Do you think you have a role even? I'm not trying to assume anything, just wondering how your own experience has been.

I've also struggled with anxiety, and therefore depression, and it sucks. I hate it. But I'm working on it and optimistic that i'll be able to deal with it much better in the future.

I kinda detailed my wife's alcohol problems earlier, but I wouldn't put your situation past my wife. She isn't often pointedly and verbally abusive, but she is constantly nit-picky. It could be anything. I've just sort of realized recently that I have never really known who I am going to get when she goes out. If a controlled person will come home, or a wasted mess. Again, I have made more excuses for this behavior.

I hope you can find some peace ChTown, and I appreciate your continued responses. It does feel so much better when I know that I am not alone in beginning to recognize these problems, and wanting the SO to change, and also knowing that you still love them, even after all of the things they have put you through.

[lotusblossom1]

anyone else?

last time i'll ask, and since it's the last time i ask, I have very much appreciated everyone's input and reads and the support i've found in the community here.

Thank you all

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear lb1-

Okay, my confusion is cleared now that I see your name has been changed!

I want to pull back the reins a bit, I hope you’ll do this, for you.  It won’t be easy, but it may be helpful.

Our partners don’t operate in a vacuum.  When they speak and act, their words and actions rarely if ever, simply bounce off of us with no reaction.  We react.  It takes time and work for us to move toward reducing OUR triggers, learn “Mindfulness” and RESPOND, rather than react.  There is a wonderful section on here about this topic.

Our reactions / responses don’t always show up in our words.  They can show in our actions.  And what we’re doing may not even have any direct correlation to anything our partners have done.  Something can be triggered inside of us - we may reach a breaking point of sorts, causing us to retreat.  And if we CANNOT find the words to explain (because we ourselves don’t understand our overwhelming emotions) why we’re doing what we’re doing, ouch.   Deep pain is the effect.  Cause and effect.  Sometimes it takes a deep dive to dissect and understand both the cause and effect.  Understanding, apologies and forgiveness.  Hopefully.  And most relationships will not, and probably SHOULD not look the same after something big has taken place.  They CAN look better, or they can look different.

I am WITH you, LB1.  Even with what I am going to say.  I am WITH you.  Because I believe there is a way to come back from this.  But I believe we have to see where we’ve BEEN if we want to come back.  Right?

So there you were... your “mid-life crisis”.   Turning 40.  A hard number for you.  New baby with difficult circumstances.  But you bonded with your beautiful baby.  And baby is healthy, thank GOD.  But turning 40 takes a front seat when you get home... your critical eye turns to you.  Or rather turns ON you.  You compare yourself to the dad who left you; his perceived “success” with a profession you don’t have, a big home you don’t yet have; you see yourself as a failure, you “think” you have “wasted” your life; you retreat to the basement.  Drink more.  In essence, where you haven’t before...NOW you have “left” your wife.  And if she has any idea of what you’re thinking... you think you have “wasted” your life with HER.  SO... there is a large space for someone else to step into, and your W is in need, so she was open to that.  Because she needs support.  Do you blame her?  Put on her shoes for a moment.  How would you feel in her shoes?

You were in turmoil.  Questioning your life, retreating to the basement, not just the sleeping part, but when you were spending more time drinking with friends, and you “removed yourself from the family unit”.  Effect:  your W started looking at where SHE fit in, knew she needed support, and in her first thoughts she didn’t want to LEAVE the family, but rather open the marriage.  I wouldn’t jump straight to emotional immaturity.  She was trying to explore how to keep the family and find closeness.

Have you and your W really processed what took place during that time?  Without blame?  Or with you taking responsibility for your vulnerability?  Do you see the sadness of “idolizing”  a man (your father) who left you when you were a small child because he had a big house and girlfriends when he was 40?  What you’re doing has much more value.

My ex-H and I once saw a psychiatrist who did intense couples work.  His belief was that if there were issues within the marriage and only one partner was speaking with a T, it was the equivalent of “cheating”, infidelity.  I still don’t know how I feel about that statement.

Some of your W’s recent statements are actually showing some good awareness and emotional maturity - she is NOT responsible for your emotions and happiness.  We show our reactions.  She’s obviously been watching you.  She knows you’re sad.  She sees that her actions and behavior are impacting you.  If she voices that she’s missing your family, you can tell her the family misses her, too.  You can recite a time you visited (specific fun time, for instance - “remember when”). Is there anything wrong with planning a fun, light visit with your family?  This can remind her of good things.  No matter what happens, you WANT to maintain a good, open relationship between your family and your W.  You have very young children.

Please think about these things.  And let’s discuss what areas you want to really focus on.  Sorry my post is so long.  Again!  Let’s talk soon.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[lotusblossom1]

Thank you Gems

I appreciate your response, once again.

I have looked hard at what happened last summer, and have been processing all of that/this on my own. I am coming to peace with my part in this. I have admitted that I was out of the house more than I should have been, and hanging out too often. I know this. I don't think I would have reacted like she did, but the fact of it is that neither of us did the right thing. We both needed help and did not get it. There is another incident that I won't recount on here that brought her into her own therapist.

Emotional immaturity - I see why you would not see this particular example as emotional immaturity, but I could detail several other instances where this has been a big issue for her and us, for years. I also see that she was trying to keep the family and find closeness, but an affair and betrayal is way more painful for everyone involved than suggesting therapy or maybe telling me how I hurt her specifically, or you know, talking to me about it.

Idolizing - I wish! I wish it was that simple. My dad left my Mom when she was pregnant with my brother. Idolizing - no. Comparing and contrasting - absolutely. And I agree that what i'm doing has much more value, and also, it's exactly what I did not have. I know the damage that divorce can cause firsthand. She has said several times 'I know what you missed out on when your parents got divorced' and that just isn't close to true. There is an example of emotional immaturity. She believes she can mitigate some of the damage but she has no example of a divorced family in her life. I do. I know what it does and she thinks she knows what can happen. That is deeply immature.

Awareness - why would she think she is responsible for my emotional well being? Of course I am sad, but she is not the only reason I am sad. I'm sad about half her family passing away, i'm sad about my dads own disease, i'm sad about what could happen to the kids, i'm sad about my own life and career having to take a back seat, i'm sad about our good friends kind of taking sides, i'm sad because i'm watching our mutual friends tell her to be strong when they don't know the whole or even part of the story and i'm sad when my boundaries are violated without a second thought. I'm sad to watch my wife make decisions from a place of illness, and not be able to think about consequences or any forethought into what will happen to everyone around us. I'm sad that we will probably have to sell our house and i'm very sad that her dad is so sick. He is a great guy and has had a hard time in the last few years and I really, really like him. He has been more of a father role model to me than my dad has ever been. I see how he parents and is a husband and has been a serious role model. Really. I want to be there for my wife throughout this, and i wanted her to be there for me through my dads illness. She hasn't been, and has continued to walk past boundaries I have clearly set. I know I have been split. I know I have not been the perfect husband. I know that her thinking she is responsible for my feelings is a symptom of BPD. I know she cannot control her anger, and has never been able to. I know she has an alcohol problem. I know her self worth is zero. I know she fakes happy around me. I know I do not matter to her. I know we went from having sex to i'm leaving you in 6 weeks. I know I probably won't get her back, but that doesn't mean that it's going to be easy to co-parent with a person who I don't trust. How can I trust or believe anyone who busts through boundaries with no thoughts for who it is affecting - her husband of 15 years? And their children?

I wish I could chalk this all up to a relationship problem, but it's more than that, and it has been more than that for many, many years. I don't mean to sound angry, but I completely agree that i have a huge role in this, and haven't addressed that topic in my previous posts. I can see why you would ask these types of hard questions. And yes, they are hard but I'm more reluctant to share that info online because I feel like its more kinda personal work. Like it's my own stuff.

Thank you again gems for your words. I appreciate you trying to get at the core of this stuff.