3 months on from the split, still unresolved feelings and trauma.

[PretentiousBread]

I've refrained from posting on this board often due to the emotional pain it causes me to unearth the details of the relationship and breakup with my uPWBex. However, I've the energy this evening to go through it all and hope people can bring me some clarity to what exactly has happened, what it all means and give me some closure on the matter. There are moments where I think I've understood enough to move on, but then other moments I realise that I in no way have processed this trauma yet and that it still causes me a great deal of pain and is very damaging to my quality of life.

I've gained a tremendous amount of insight from '2010's posts, and have saved many posts of her's that explain certain elements of the r/s and break up. However, I've done this all privately, I've not really had an outside opinion to validate the conclusions that I've come to.

Yesterday I went to a very highly qualified psychologist who claimed to have an in depth knowledge and experience of BPD, yet I found her to be next to useless, as all she was interested in discussing was me and my own issues, and in so many words told me not to worry about the ex, and barely offered a single shred of insight into my ex's state of mind and what led her to her actions, which I so desperately need.

I'll try to keep this as brief as possible but at the same time don't want to leave anything on the table, so several long posts will probably follow from this...

[once removed]

and barely offered a single shred of insight into my ex's state of mind and what led her to her actions, which I so desperately need.

what did you ask her? what insights are you looking for?

[PretentiousBread]

If the following is heavy on detail, I'm just trying to paint an accurate picture as to the character of this girl, so bear with me.

Last September, my uPWBex and I got together. We worked together (she was my line manager). Although she was my line manager, I immediately sensed a shyness in her that seemed at odds with her outward appearance (absolutely gorgeous, full figure, big eyes, just beautiful, every guy in the building would gawk at her). In our first team meeting she sat in silence, even when prompted by our manager to offer any thoughts, she sat with her head down and sheepishly declined to speak. It was bizarre, but at the same time made me think of myself - I'm INFP, naturally shy and unassuming and I could tell she was similar. Any time speaking with her she'd not stay for long, would literally say something in passing but move on quickly, again, reminding me of myself It all seemed like she just wasn't fully comfortable in her skin or being the person in charge. I didn't know much about her, other than that she was a single mother of 2 (which had already somewhat put me off the idea of us together) and that she seemed lovely but a bit of an enigma.

I posted on our intranet an advert looking for musicians to join my band (I'm a drummer) and she was the only person to reply. In her reply she went to lengths to show that she was into all the same artists and that she was the artsy, muso type, referencing her going to art college (which I subsequently found out she dropped out from). In her reply she also asked if I was going to the next work night out. However, as was often the way with her, she made a mistake doing something - she sent the email to the entire office, instead of just me...

She agreed to meet up for practice, then on the day, about an hour beforehand, she texted to say her childminder was sick and she couldn't make it, but apologised saying she'd like to do it again the next practice. I took it to mean she chickened out though.

Then in a one to one meeting with her, I flirted a little and she responded by inviting me out for drinks with her and workmates that night. I arrived before her, she arrived with the biggest, beaming smile on her (she later told me she was so happy I agreed to go out) and already seemed a bit drunk. She was there with her best friend. During the evening, her best friend said to me "you should see uPWBex out there, she's such a flirt", to which I immediately feared the worst about her, so I got up and went to order a taxi. However, she convinced me to stay, grabbed my hand, eventually kissed and so began this whole ordeal.

She was really drunk, and was very, very childlike in her behaviour in this state. When we got talking, she would be saying things like "so do you like me? What do you like about me? Have you always liked me? What do you think about me?" She seemed ultra insecure. Amongst other things, she told me her ex called her frigid because she wouldn't have anal sex, and she said "I'm not really looking for anything serious" but that she really liked me etc.etc.

In the taxi home, she was telling me to feel her chest, was mega full on with me, and that if we weren't working the next day together that she'd have me back to her place. After dropping her off, she rang me repeatedly, already asking what all I thought about 'us'.

The next day before work she texted to say she was feeling rough but that all she could think about was kissing me again, then asked if I wanted to go out some time. In work she seemed to be drunk still. Then through the week we texted a lot and she mentioned in one text "I remember saying to you I didn't want a relationship etc but that's not entirely true.. I got out of a very long relationship back in December and anyone who I've dated since I haven't wanted anything really serious but actually I wouldn't mind dating someone properly if they wanted to "

Ok, that's about as much as I can manage for now, will probably pick this up tomorrow. If anyone has anything to contribute or ask me in the meantime please feel free. Thanks.

[PretentiousBread]

what did you ask her? what insights are you looking for?

Well that was my second meeting with the T, and at the end of the first session, after giving her an extensive summary of my life until this point, she asked what I wanted to get out of this. I told her that I wanted insight into my ex's behaviour, what her thinking was and ultimately some closure for myself. My T's position was the usual "this is about you" but I explained that this relationship was enmeshed with my feeling of self worth, and that a little clarity and explanation on a few things would fix a lot of the issues that have been weighing me down.

I likened it to how I went through a bit of a crisis before where I was extremely insecure about my intelligence, and that me getting my IQ officially tested was the best decision I ever made, because it literally eradicated my doubts in one fell swoop. I'm looking for something similar here with my uPWBex story.

[once removed]

My T's position was the usual "this is about you" but I explained that this relationship was enmeshed with my feeling of self worth, and that a little clarity and explanation on a few things would fix a lot of the issues that have been weighing me down.

detaching has five stages. it sounds like the therapist wanted to jump straight to the third 

some therapists will do that. some therapists will listen and offer psychology explanations at first/for a while. some will do a mix of both, and some therapists will over validate. a good balance is important, chemistry is important.

There are moments where I think I've understood enough to move on, but then other moments I realise that I in no way have processed this trauma yet and that it still causes me a great deal of pain and is very damaging to my quality of life.

it helps to talk; this place was, by far, the most important part of my recovery. im glad youve begun to share your story with us. i look forward to the rest!

[PretentiousBread]

detaching has five stages. it sounds like the therapist wanted to jump straight to the third  

some therapists will do that. some therapists will listen and offer psychology explanations at first/for a while. some will do a mix of both, and some therapists will over validate. a good balance is important, chemistry is important.

it helps to talk; this place was, by far, the most important part of my recovery. im glad youve begun to share your story with us. i look forward to the rest!

Thank you brother, just reading that you doing this before me was the biggest part of your recovery, that gives me great comfort and cause for optimism, especially as you and I are more alike than usual (INFP). I read you hadn't been in a relationship for 3 years before your BPDex - same here - and I'm paraphrasing here, but that feeling like you'd finally met your soulmate only to have it ripped away and turned on you, that it's profoundly hurtful in a way that others struggle to understand, I completely relate to all of that. Friends and family just don't get it, and it actually seems to make things worse speaking to them about it, because the usual breakup advice is very invalidating of what we've been through.

I think I've realised that I've been ashamed of how affected I've been by this, and at times struggle to fully acknowledge what actually happened to me. This has resulted in a deep depression, for 4 weeks consecutive now my T says I meet the criteria for Major Depression. But I'll definitely continue my account of the relationship tomorrow. Thanks again for listening man.

[Longterm]

Friends and family just don't get it, and it actually seems to make things worse speaking to them about it, because the usual breakup advice is very invalidating of what we've been through.

You are not alone and we can all empathize how this type of relationship can have a profound effect on the non. I have found this place to be very safe, welcoming and validating. It is not your run of the mill breakup, you have suffered very serious wounds and we can all help you come to terms and get a better understanding of why this has all happened.

I think I've realised that I've been ashamed of how affected I've been by this, and at times struggle to fully acknowledge what actually happened to me. 

We all have felt this, again you are not alone. The damage done by these relationships destroys your self esteem and leaves you a shell of the person you used to be. I have been up and down for many months but I am not ashamed that I have shared that with the people here because I know they understand.

This has resulted in a deep depression, for 4 weeks consecutive now my T says I meet the criteria for Major Depression.

Your emotions are going to all over the place for quite some time, this is perfectly normal considering what has happened to you and is more than reasonable and ok. Around 70% of users here meet the criteria for depression.

 I'll definitely continue my account of the relationship tomorrow.

Write away, we will all listen and help where we can.

 

[Leonis]

Friends and family just don't get it, and it actually seems to make things worse speaking to them about it, because the usual breakup advice is very invalidating of what we've been through.

I am lucky, I suppose. The instance of mental illness is high enough in Utah here that my friends feel that there is something wrong with my ex. If not, at least some sort of victim mentality.

All my family members think she has something along the lines of "hallucination and self-victimizing" behavior. Which is not too far off when interpreting how a BPD views the world through 4-year-old lenses.

For @PretentiousBread, that feeling of shame and depression will take a bit to get over. I know I was depressed for a while until I started having my son every alternate weekend.

The worst part is, I feel I have developed some masochist tendencies where I want more of her chaos and relish in those rare moments of peace. Not a good place to be.

Like I replied to @LongTerm, I was lucky that many of my friends/family believed my story and think my ex has some sort of mental illness. The few times I've visited therapists, they weren't too keen about me saying how she might have had an illness.

[PretentiousBread]

Part 2:

So from our texting it seemed to be painting the picture of a girl with some depth to her which I hadn't previously realised, a hell of a lot of similarities to myself, shared taste in almost everything, and of course the mutual strong attraction - what could possibly go wrong?

We went on 4 more dates I think before making it official, it was on the second of these dates that I started to really fall for her. We took a road trip to see a Kurt Cobain exhibition (she was a big Nirvana fan) and the way we'd just effortlessly talk for hours, without alcohol, it all felt so right. We were both 'ideas' oriented people, turned out she was ENFP and I was INFP (her extraversion teetering right on the edge of Introversion). I felt really understood and genuinely appreciated for my opinions and interests like never before, and in a way that couldn't be faked as the conversation wasn't one sided. She said herself she'd never had as much in common with a guy, that she saw a lot of herself in me and that whilst different in other ways (which I guess would transpire later) that she liked the way I viewed the world.

However there were also clues as to what would come down the line, as she said that she felt like she wasn't fully in touch with her emotions, and that she has problems opening up to people and told me of her 'abusive' ex, who had anger problems related to alcohol.

She said she loved how deep I was, and wondered how I seemed to understand her so well. One night we were very intimate and I opened up on some of my insecurities and she told me I was only the second person after her ex she'd told this to but that she's 'always felt different' her entire life. We'd have 3-4 hour long phone calls that felt like minutes, be sending each other love songs etc, all very soppy I know, but a couple of nights she was lying awake messaging me, sending me love songs and romantic messages in the middle of the night while I was asleep, then deleted a series of messages that I never got to read (she later told me she was embarrassed at how full on she was being with me).

In the wake of such intimacy she'd usually apologise the morning after when really there was nothing to be embarrassed about as she was only opening up as much as I was, but the shame at her feelings was already apparent.

Despite this almost perfect picture, there were a few little moments that alerted me that something wasn't quite right. She could flip between being obsessed with me to suddenly being very casual or flippant in her treatment of me, flaking on a lunch date in the most casual manner just a day after sending me all those early morning love messages just as I'd felt like we had a common understanding. Or on another date, I got this sense that her interest in me was just a casual one, the way she'd look at me and kiss me, it was very seductive, but didn't feel intimate and caring, rather lustful and highly sexualised, I felt like an object at times, and she'd be doing this in front of a crowd of people, even as I was trying to just speak to her (alcohol always brought out this side of her, more on that later).

Rationally it made no sense to think it was casual, given the way we connected, what time we'd spent together and how intense her interest level in me was, but I didn't feel the security building, rather it felt like a series of independent dates punctuated by texting. I rationalised that this is what dating was. Shortly before we became official though, I confronted her on this by admitting that I had real feelings for her, to which she reciprocated and also assured me that this wasn't casual to her either and that I wasn't wasting my time. However after we became official (at her request) this feeling remained, she still wished us to be kept a secret in the work place (though I've been assured by others that this was understandable given her position) but I couldn't shake this feeling that I was a part time boyfriend at her convenience, especially after she'd 'won' me. As 2010 summed it up once "the feelings are real, the relationship is superficial".

When we did make it official, we consummated it in the bedroom at a luxury 5 star hotel, and it was easily, and repeatedly, the best sex of my life. She had a high libido and said she could basically have sex all day if I wanted. She was actually the one suggesting booking a hotel and was leading the sexual side of the texting. In it she'd also be asking me what things I found sexy, what I would like her to wear, what pleases me, what my fantasies are, it all revolved around how to please me. She would come into work texting me that she'd a certain outfit on specifically for me. Once she was gutted I rang in sick because she went to a lot of trouble to look good for me etc. She messaged me to say her friend in work remarked on just how happy she looked the Monday after we became official.

We were both pretty smitten at this point, yet I never felt completely relaxed. The casualness with me continued (cancelling on a date despite 'feeling put out' at me earlier in the week for me not confirming my availability in the first place for the same date), that part time boyfriend feeling never went away, noticing that everything seemed to be happening on her terms and schedule, and when I raised these feelings during a phone call, purely just to communicate my needs, she got ultra defensive, started belittling those needs, said I was way too intense and seemed 'very negative about us', and that she was in tears and would see if she could get the horrible feeling out of her chest that night. It seemed an extreme reaction, but being the caring sort that I am, I shouldered the blame and felt like I'd really done something wrong, but with hindsight I see this was the rejection sensitivity at play. The following day we'd actually a great day together that had initially started off frosty, with her asking me "Are you a negative person?" this was to be a theme that would crop up later. But still I won her over and we'd a genuinely brilliant day, lots of makeup sex etc, her calling me to chat after it for hours and telling me she'd have the best time anywhere with me. Again with hindsight, so long as the person feels validated, loved and not criticised in that moment, all is well apparently, as simple as that.

A couple of nights later after a phone call, she messaged to say "sorry if I was boring you", which perplexed me, and I rang her up again to reassure her, validate etc etc. the following day we met during her work day for a surprise lunch date that she had organised, but I just sensed this distance in her demeanour. We met up again that night for drinks, but her interest seemed slightly less and she turned in early. I felt like she was losing interest. 

No surprises that that was the last date we had together before the first breakup. Will continue the rest later, thanks to whomever may take the time to read all this.

[PretentiousBread]

Part 3:

A bit I missed in the last part was that she told me about the abuse from her ex boyfriend, and the trouble she was having with his parents. She said her ex left a knife out on the table as a warning to her once. After telling me this she told me it was a sign of how comfortable she was with me to be opening up like this (as she repeatedly told me she had trust issues).

This was just a few days before she started distancing herself from me. I noticed that the sort of conversation we used to have didn't seem to interest her much anymore, it now seemed to revolve around her own life and day to day things that frankly bored me. She would fish for compliments, blatantly, asking things like "so what did you say to your friend about me?"

I was no longer enjoying the relationship, we'd no plans to get together the following weekend and she disinvited me from a work Halloween night out (later pretended she didn't, but clearly she didn't want me there, as it might've exposed us as a couple) and it was on that night that she went out and cheated on me.

Earlier on that day she walked into work, dressed provocatively as Lara Croft and smiled at me. I was very busy with someone and didn't get to smile back, then she passed me later looking concerned. After I hadn't replied to her last text (not one that required a reply) she texted "all ok?". I replied saying not to worry, to enjoy her night out and that I was just under a lot of stress with work but that we should catch up for a coffee soon. She responded with "oh no, are you worried about us?", then she never even checked her phone again that night, went out and got wasted, and then ended up kissing a guy we worked with who was obese, was Aspergers, and was dressed up as a granny. Unbelievable.

She called the next morning to confess, ringing and messaging me repeatedly while I was at work. When I asked why she cheated, she claimed she wasn't in control of what she was doing, that people were plying her with shots, but an important admission of self awareness was let out when she said she thought it might be to do with her low self esteem. After I hung up in disgust, she continued to call and message me repeatedly saying she didn't want to break up, was a huge mistake, that she was so upset and having severe chest pains. The next day we met to talk, I aired all my grievances about the relationship, her oddities and shifts in behaviour, admitted I no longer trusted her, she continued to apologise, saying that she wouldn't do it again, but offered me nothing in the way of serious reassurance that any of my doubts were misplaced, she just couldn't open up, even admitting the last guy she dated complained that she was emotionally unavailable. When I put a question to her at one point she cried saying "but I feel like you're going to chew my head off", admittedly I was far from calm myself. She'd always said how she couldn't handle confrontations (rejection sensitivity) yet paradoxically I think she got off on the drama, made her feel desired and important. During this she also had what appeared like an anxiety attack in front of me, she clutched her chest, rocking backwards and forwards. This was in public, I didn't know what to do.

The following week, still seething and not understanding of her or her actions, I somewhat immaturely blanked her in the corridor, at this point it seems I was split black (temporarily). She said "are you not speaking to me?", but said it in such a child like way, turning around and storming off. Her behaviour the rest of the week was passive aggressive and avoidant, showing sudden attention to other guys, it was unbelievable, that she could have done all she did then one bad move on my part and suddenly it was like I was the bad guy. I was ready to pull the plug at this point.

We met once more, she admitted she didn't know how to act around me all week, felt like crying the entire week, and we agreed to go on a break from each other, but it really felt like the end. She said things like "will it be fun anymore?" "now all your family know about what I've done" and "I don't deserve you". This last comment I took as cliched nonsense to make me feel better, but actually with the shame component I now think that was how she genuinely was feeling at the time. She ran off to the toilets crying, hid there for an hour after the talk, when she was meant to be in charge on the office floor. I could feel her looking at me while I was a little teary eyed myself, I felt like she was feeding off it all.

She messaged the following day to say that she'd been put on anti depressants for the first time since her childhood and was referred for counselling. She said that she wanted to somehow make things work, saying she wouldn't be getting with anyone and that she didn't want to be with anyone else other than me, saying she missed me, was thinking about me and wanted to see me, then offered me to stay at hers that weekend despite the boundary setting of the relationship break, just totally ignored it.

She finally opened up a bit to me, saying in the last month since we became official, that she'd been privately having a lot of mood swings, ups and downs, chest pains and so on. She said that when she is feeling down that she completely withdraws herself (understandable) and that she "has no idea why". She said that she needed to be more open with me as I was taking her withdrawal as disinterest in me which was just the opposite of reality.

I didn't really grasp all this at the time, but have come to understand that pwBPD tend to experience a lot of anxiety when two factors come into play A - the partner is suitable and B - the relationship becomes serious. I guess this was the engulfment/abandonment fears kicking in and that cheating was her maladaptive way out, but upon realising her imminent abandonment, then the frantic efforts to avoid this kicked in, hence the sudden swing back towards me.

But it lasted all of a few days, she sounded distant on a phone call, didn't hear from her at all the next day, then the day after ignored me leaving work. I felt enough was enough, called her out on all this and she basically sent me a breakup text and ignored my pleas to talk things through. We then did agree to go 'on a break', but things were so bad at this point, I couldn't stand being around her and I resigned (only had a month left on the contract anyway). She frantically texted and called me after I walked out, saying she hoped I was alright and hoped it wasn't to do with her.

I broke up with her officially a couple of weeks later during which there was little to no contact, and after messaging her the previous day with no reply, then her claiming not to have seen the message (though I could see she was online all day) I figured she'd called it quits and so I did too. I sent a message, in the context of things and given all her pushing me away, I thought it was doing her a favour this way, it was good willed and paid tribute to her, but it was really short sighted of me in the manner of delivery. She sent an angry reply about being broken up with by text, telling me to 'have a nice life'. I replied, pouring my heart out to her, that I meant every word about how I felt about her and that I only did it because I felt she no longer wanted the relationship, that I felt like a forced dumper. I left a voicemail after she wouldn't pick up, apologising for the manner in which I did it. I didn't hear anything back from her, until Christmas morning...which is where I'll pick up the last and by far most significant part of this all.

 

[PretentiousBread]

Part 4:

After NC for about 3 weeks with her last message reading "have a nice life", she texts me at about 1am on Christmas morning with a personalised happy christmas message, hoping I did well in a recent drum exam etc. I replied by striking up a conversation which went well (during which she mentioned a New Years resolution was to drink a bit less) then suggested getting together for drinks to which she enthusiastically agreed. She then ghosted me completely, and just a day later she updated her FB profile pic of her in the girls' toilets, dolled up, looking provocative, she changed it again a few days after to another from the same night, again, selfies in the toilets. This was a dagger in the heart initially, but I noticed how out of character it was for her, she used to update her profile pic every month or so with a classy photo of her, now she was doing it multiple times since the breakup with her looking very provocative in each. Call me paranoid but I think it's safe to assume, given her passive aggressive communication style, that this was a message for both herself and to me i.e "look at what you're missing, having fun without you", a bit of revenge.

At this point in time I knew nothing of BPD, and although I saw that she had issues (my best friend said after thinking about things that she was a nutjob who is attracted to chaos), I didn't fully appreciate to what extent, as it was drawn out over months and was balanced against all that I loved about her, especially at the beginning. Being the self deprecating individual that I am and misguided by online dating advice, I'd come to some conclusion that I just turned her off with being needy. With hindsight, this was never the problem, I never 'turned her off', the attraction was always intact but the feelings fluctuated wildly based on how validating I was of her, completely regardless of how she was treating me, that this barely seemed to factor into her equation. But I was following dating advice from Corey Wayne, under the mistaken impression that it was my 'dating skills' that were lacking before and that these techniques would correct things, that I knew how to handle her now.

So I decided on one last roll of the dice and sent her an apology message for how I broke up with her, understanding she may have had cold feet about meeting up again etc. Read but no reply... I really was full of a lot of anger for her now, more than ever and felt very bitter. On a night out I bumped into a lot of our former mutual colleagues and heard a lot of revealing things about this girl, the opinion was that she is lovely at heart but has extreme low self esteem, that her last relationship messed her up, and that she tends to get completely wasted any time she drinks. I was even speaking to a guy who she apparently tried to get with some years ago at a house party while her baby daddy was downstairs at the time. This guy was friends with the both of them so nothing happened, but was just another red flag that I banked and made me increasingly wary of her, yet unfortunately didn't stop me from wanting to give her another chance.

In the back of my mind I held out hope she might reach out, deep down I still wanted reconciliation and another shot at things, that there'd been too much miscommunication and misunderstanding, holding onto the idealisation stage of her in my mind, wanting to get back there.

Then indeed she sent me a slightly garbled message on Valentines at about 1:30am saying she'd had a bereavement, that she figured I'd moved on but that life was short and she wanted to see how I was doing. I replied the next day, extending my condolences and said to keep in touch. I figured this was mainly a drunken weak moment of hers and I'd not hear back, yet she immediately replied and suggested meeting for a coffee. A few more messages were exchanged and in one of which she admitted "Thanks as well for messaging me back although you’ve every reason not to". She congratulated me on getting my Grade 8 in drums, so clearly had been checking my FB.

So we met up for the coffee a couple of weeks later, was nervy but went well, she was looking really elegant and beautiful, made a big effort, and excused herself to use the bathroom twice during it, coming back smelling more of perfume than the last time... She suggested at the end that we should do something again some time. I'd been playing things very cool but she seemed ultra keen so I agreed. A few days later I asked her for drinks and she sent me a friend request on FB where the chat became a bit more relaxed, finally got to see each other's full profiles, with her loving all my drumming videos and talking about going to a gig together that wasn't for a few months.  

Interestingly, I noticed she saved an album of all her photos of when she was blonde, which was only for the duration that she went out with her first boyfriend. She later told me that this guy loved blondes, so she dyed her hair in an effort to please him, and that he was much older and treated her like a trophy (classic Narc/BPD relationship). She'd later also tell me that her biggest problem coming out of relationships was trying to find her identity.

I also came across her YouTube page where I noticed her likes and subscriptions were almost exclusively for lifestyle and makeup/hairstyle pages, that's it. Her sheer preoccupation with her self image (despite the type of things she'd say in conversation suggesting she's not materialistic) was extreme even by most girl's standards.There's literally nothing else she watches on YouTube apparently, except for a single rap video from a local artist. I then came to realise he and her were liking each other's profile pics for some time, which started a few weeks after she cheated on me and ended a month before she got back in contact with me. I think I'd come across the guy she'd been kept busy with on our break from each other. It's with great frustration that I write all this now yet didn't heed the warning signs at the time, but feelings were strong and I was determined that she deserved a second chance.

So we met up for drinks (this was now a full 4 weeks after the Valentines message), things were going great, conversation flowing, her saying "you know this reminds me of just how well we get on with each other", we kissed, then she apologised for everything, opened up about what went on before a bit, to which I basically said if anything like Halloween were to ever happen again that I'd be totally finished with her, but there was a weird insincerity about her demeanour, like an exaggerated look of shame. Oh, and she also asked "do you love me?", to which I said that was too strong to say but that I'd feelings for her and cared about her.

Then we went to the most random club and she ended up being wasted as per usual (she only has one kidney and rolls this out as an excuse as to why she gets blind drunk), she went to the toilets then wandered off on her own for about half an hour. I was furious, but refused to chase her, she even came back to the area I was in but sat down away from me and was texting someone, looking very sad. Still I refused to chase. She wandered off again, then messaged me the following corker "Please help, I'm stifling in the doorway. Whew IOU's come mot have detract form men. Heooq mmmmm"...When I got to her, indeed some guy was giving her hassle, so I took her hand and we left the club.

She invited me back to her place but even in her state she was severely embarrassed because she hadn't planned it and hadn't tidied. When I entered, I saw what she meant. She lives there with her two children, but the place was a mess. Her room was a complete tip, not even any sheets on the bed, no room to move, floor completely covered. She had a lot of ADHD traits herself and said she required structure and lists because her mind was 'chaotic'. I was getting her a glass of water from the equally messy kitchen when I heard a series of thuds...she'd fallen down the entire staircase and was faceplanted at the bottom. Thankfully she was ok, I put her to bed.

The next day was blissful, lots of sex, lying in bed all day then curling up together on the sofa, ordering a pizza in etc. At one point she was giddily squirming around in bed almost like she couldn't contain her joy at how she was feeling and letting out this statement that she'd never felt this way for anyone in her life before (she'd told me in the first r/s that she'd never experienced these feelings at such an early stage of a relationship and that she 'didn't think it would ever happen' to her). She then told me she wasn't sure what love is, that she's not experienced it before (!) but asking if she could tell me something...that she thinks she's in love with me. I reciprocated, despite all that went on before, it felt right.

She wanted to be exclusive, asked if I was dating anyone. When I asked if she was, she dropped mention of a "tall, dark, handsome Italian guy" in work who messaged her to go out for a drink but that she wasn't so interested. So I agreed to us being exclusive. She even wanted to go FB official already which I put the brakes on.

The idealisation was in full flight here, she said she loved everything from my eyes to my abs, to my butt, to my arms, to my chest, to my shoes to our height difference and how it was all perfect to her. She even said how much fun it could be if I moved in with her. She was very clingy in this state, I'd intended on leaving in the early afternoon but she'd repeatedly pulled me back into bed or onto the sofa etc. Ended up staying most of the day.

She wanted to FaceTime me that night and the next, and messaged me first thing on Monday then followed it up saying she was sorry but she literally couldn't stop thinking about me. Then we'd a FaceTime the following night with her going ahead and booking us a trip to Dublin months away.

Things apparently couldn't be better. If you'd told me that she'd discard me in the cruelest, meanest fashion just a week later, I'd not have believed you. I'll explain that in a final part.

[PretentiousBread]

Just to add to the previous, before agreeing to become exclusive, she said us not working out was 100% her fault before.

[once removed]

I think I've realised that I've been ashamed of how affected I've been by this

i felt that way for a while, too. that it made me weak to pine for, or be hurt by, someone that hurt me.

it doesnt. its grief, its mourning, its loss. if someone died, odds are you wouldnt shame yourself for feeling.

things got easier for me when i said to myself that this really hurt me. that it was going to take me some time and work to rebuild. that missing her, or hating her, or both, were natural.

it takes vulnerability to acknowledge that we are human, have lost a bond, and are affected by it. but only then can we start to detach from and heal from the wounds.

[PretentiousBread]

i felt that way for a while, too. that it made me weak to pine for, or be hurt by, someone that hurt me.

it doesnt. its grief, its mourning, its loss. if someone died, odds are you wouldnt shame yourself for feeling.

things got easier for me when i said to myself that this really hurt me. that it was going to take me some time and work to rebuild. that missing her, or hating her, or both, were natural.

it takes vulnerability to acknowledge that we are human, have lost a bond, and are affected by it. but only then can we start to detach from and heal from the wounds.

Thank you, I've noticed many times now where you've articulated what I'm feeling, and it's like a little 'aha' moment for me each time. I did have a similar thought before, whereby I felt serious grief yet was being told to "move on" and said to my friend "you'd not tell someone who's lost a loved one to just 'move on' would you?" to which he replied "but it's not the same as a loved one dying, no matter how you feel", just further invalidating what I was going through. Since the split I've been a mixture of feeling as much as my nervous system will allow me and repressing feelings that clearly need let out. Even my bloody therapist was telling me I needed to fight to get a hold of my thoughts because I have a life and I need to move on.

I have to say that just recounting my story, long winded though it may be (only for the purposes of accuracy and giving a full portrayal of my ex), has lifted my depression markedly in the last few days. I've been able to get out for walks, done a few chores round the house and so on. Just a few days ago I'd barely the motivation to get out of bed. I think at least now I have a place to vent all this pent up rage and emotion that I can balance this with being productive from day to day, instead of lying around trying to pretend that I don't have serious psychological issues that are unresolved.

[Zen606]

Hi Pretencious Bread,
Your psych sounds spot on. The issues are about you and your responses. What the ex did is really not important -- except for identifying her as a bpd person. From my experience, when I went into therapy after a year of roller coasting with a bpd lover, I told my story ad nauseam, and then began to work on myself. I can see that the issue was me, my responses, my behavior. What about me, my childhood experiences would lead me to involvement with a bpd individual? After 2 years of therapy I can see that it continues to be about me and not him. So, work on yourself, its the best thing you could do. Your ex's issues are about her. In therapy you are the focus.

Zen606

[PretentiousBread]

Final part:

upwBPDex and I had another date, out for dinner then drinks, everything going swimmingly, her saying she'd told her mother all about me and how impressed she was, she started talking about what way I'd like to meet her kids. Then suddenly she gets out her phone and says "that guy messaged me, he wants to go for drinks next friday; what should I tell him?" I immediately picked up on the test/mind game, but played it like it was nothing, just told her roughly what to say and to let him down lightly, but she sat there with her phone, looking down at it, literally impossible to change the subject short of me dictating the message word for word for her. It went on so long she made it into an argument, where I told her that I trusted her to say the right thing but to consider how I feel, especially in light of our past. I found myself having to explain the basic concept of empathy to her, when she finally admitted that her hearing I'd been on a date with someone during our break didn't make her feel good at all. I thought I'd made a breakthrough but the issue didn't drop. We sat down, she was like "what's wrong?", clearly baiting me, and in that moment I felt "is this the woman I'm going to be in a relationship with?", and I told her it felt like she was testing me, that I wasn't concerned about any other guys but I was concerned that she'd try to make me jealous. She said she didn't play games and that she gets hit on every week and wants to feel like she can tell me everything, I came back from the bar and as I sat down she put her bag between us and looked at me indignantly. I said I just want to have a good night with you and now you act all passive aggressive, this made her furious, then she started crying in the middle of the bar and said she doesn't often cry and she'd never felt this upset on a date before.

But it felt all wrong, the way she brought it up was very unnatural, and then how she sat there waiting for me to tell her exactly what to say, again, very unnatural. It was triangulation, plain and simple. She did this before during the first r/s when mid-date she randomly announced to me that a guy we worked with happened to be the last guy she was dating, just telling me it from nowhere and simply waiting and watching for my reaction. I played along then but did ask "soo why'd you just tell me that?"..."because I thought you should know". I remember the next time in work, feeling her eyes on me when I was looking at that guy, clearly getting off on the idea of us having a rivalry over her.

On our way out of the bar and waiting for the taxi she was asking other men for a light, even though she had her own. So we got back to my house, she cried a ton more, and made mention of soulmates and how she wants to be with someone she can tell everything to i.e. do exactly as I wish or I'll break up with you. I asked her if she realised the enormity of what she'd just said. I was staggered at her complete lack of consideration for how I felt, even after me showing her my perspective. I told her I adored her, that I loved her but that there was damage made to the trust during the first r/s and that the trust needed to be built back up, but that all she needed to do for for me was just to continue to be her lovely self that I adore, nothing more and nothing less. Said I had nothing more to give, she said the same.

She sat there looking crestfallen, I went over and embraced her, told her I loved her and I want only her and that we were going to get through this, that it's ok for people to have disagreements in relationships and that we'll work this out. I noticed almost to my surprise how she kissed me back, it was passionate, wanting to be close to me again. The dynamic reminded me so much of a child crying and being picked up by its parent for comfort, like I'd suddenly made everything right in their world.

I came out of the bathroom, and she was stood there in this lingerie outfit she brought with her, looking as happy as could be - cue the make up sex. The speed with which she'd switched to that happy state amazed me. I've since come to understand that pwBPD are known to provoke drama then resolve it in this way, that it's the ultimate for them in terms of being in control and feeling desired. Another thing I noticed about the sex was her desire to be submissive and to be held down.

The next day the atmosphere was understandably weird, she apologised for the night before, I said it was ok, that arguments happen and they're not the end of the world. But we went for lunch and the first sign of devaluation came. I mentioned my sore head with the hangover and how I hoped the restaurant wouldn't be full of noisy kids all around us, to which she said "Really? I don't have any problem with that, in fact I quite like having younger ones around." I'd often notice little moments like that with her and they were becoming more and more common now. Lunch was awkward, I had this feeling I was in her bad books, when really it ought to have been the other way round.

During the drive home she asked if she should tell her ex about me, I suggested she could mention it in passing if it comes up but that just triumphantly announcing it to him might seem mean to which she said "yes, although he doesn't overthink everything like you do". She also said "you do love me, don't you?", again always fishing for this validation.

I left her off with a great sense of unease, feeling very unsure about her, but she texted that night apologising and saying she'd organise the next date and that maybe we should do something without alcohol, to which I enthusiastically agreed. Then during the week I received a couple of 'all ok?' texts on successive days, after I'd been late out of bed and not initiating any conversation. Then she put off a planned FaceTime conversation two nights in a row, I made zero fuss, was friendly and told her just to call whenever she wants to chat, even dropped her a random message midweek just to tell her I was thinking about her and couldn't wait to see her again.

However the issue of the triangulation bothered me, I hadn't let it go, and speaking to my counselor she suggested broaching the subject in a calm manner with her the next time we spoke to find out from her what was motivating the need to show me other men messaging her. So upwBPDex FaceTimed me and was upset after a bad day, she didn't get her bonus in work, I of course listened, was understanding and trying to be positive and so on. It felt the wrong moment to bring it up, but I felt with our date the next night that maybe we could clear the air over everything and have a great time the next day.

Bad move - basically I was speaking to the Detached Protector, with her saying "I guess I just have to watch what I say with you", I was really walking on eggshells at this point. She said "should it be so hard? if it's like this now, what'll it be like in the future?" I said "the early stages are often unstable before it settles down". I mentioned that she'd once told me that a good thing to make something up to someone is to say "what can I do to make this right" and that I felt if she said that to me that the trust could be restored. She clearly took this very badly. I encouraged her to open up, that I wanted to hear out any issues she had with me that I could take onboard and work on, and that I wanted to be there for her. She became really stonewalling at this point and basically hung up. A key thing from here is her reading of my facial expressions, which I understand pwBPD interpret neutral often as negative.

I was stunned at how badly it went, made to feel like I'd done something awful there. I felt really stupid. She texted however the following morning apologising for her behaviour on the call but said that she wasn't in the mood for that type of discussion and said "look what I got us", with screenshots of bowling tickets, but she'd booked the wrong day, she was forever booking wrong dates (did for the Dublin trip as well) and then messaged "shall I book them again, or do you not want to go out tonight?" I replied of course I did and that I was dying to see her and that I'd book them. She mentioned if it was ok if she'd meet me for dinner in town after drinks with her work pals, again not wanting to be the smothering, controlling b/f I said it was fine. I also had the option of driving or taking the train, to which she said the train as it'd give me the option of having a drink.

She emerged from the bar 15 mins late, I'd messaged her to say I'd arrived and there was no answer, with me standing out in the cold, not knowing what surprise restaurant she'd booked for us. Between her attitude towards me the previous night and making me wait for her I felt very on edge, she came out of the bar with this exaggerated, fake looking smile and went to kiss me, I went to kiss on the cheek, I pulled away slightly, irked at how I felt I was being treated by her in general to which she clearly was insulted.

In the restaurant her behaviour was really grandiose, she was talking over me, interrupting me, seemingly flirting with waiters, it felt very put on and I think she was already half drunk. She apologised for being late but it felt really insincere, but I accepted and we moved on and the conversation seemed to be picking up. Then she brought up our conversation of the night before and I thought "great I can clear the air here", but it quickly descended into a nightmare.

She said I was inconsiderate of how people are feeling when they don't want to talk about such things, and that besides we'd only started going out and that it was 'inappropriate' to bring up. She also said when I mentioned about her putting the handbag between us that "that was a red flag, or whatever you call those" (feel as if she was reading online dating advice). She said I seemed very 'negative' on the FaceTime, I said that far from it I actually felt stupid for bringing it up and was embarassed and she was like "noo, you looked very negative to me". She said it felt like I was demanding of her re. rebuilding the trust, to which I said I just wanted some acknowledgement and consideration of that fact and she said "for what, something that happened 6 months ago?" and that she'd grown as a person in that time (which I'd previously acknowledged). I was particularly hurt by that comment, how she could previously admit that I'd every reason not to speak to her again over that, yet here she was trivializing her infidelity. Her behaviour was arrogant in the extreme, on a real power trip and reveling in my destruction.

Then came the moment, she told me "I care about you, and I want you to know that it takes a lot for me to get feelings for someone and that they take a long time to go away." Then she said that she decided a while back that she no longer would tolerate 'negative people' in her life, and that "I don't think we're going to work out." I was barely halfway through my dinner with food in my mouth when she delivered this. There were tables sat either side of this, hearing absolutely everything, them looking embarrassed as hell. I had my bag with me, for staying over at hers as we'd previously arranged, had the bowling tickets in it too, brought up to the city on the train for this.

I told her "I think this is a mistake, I thought we could work this out, you told me a couple of weeks ago that you loved me (she started shaking her head) but obviously your feelings have changed, so I guess that's that" I threw money on the table, said "let me know if you change your mind" and left, with her looking rather sheepish and unable to look me in the eye as I was leaving.

I was and am, even as I recount this now, utterly devastated. Breaking up was one thing, but the way she did it, felt like such a vicious personal attack against me. That's what I'm struggling to get over more than anything else, was how she did it, not that she did it. The very next day I stumbled upon BPD, realised something was up here and that maybe she had a hint of personality disorder. On the advice of my best friend, I blocked her, that was 3 months ago. I'll post the aftermath and my thoughts in a separate post.

[once removed]

Breaking up was one thing, but the way she did it, felt like such a vicious personal attack against me. That's what I'm struggling to get over more than anything else, was how she did it, not that she did it.

what part of how she did it bothers you the most, and why?

[Longterm]

Hi prententiousbread.

My ex too struggles with the basic concept of empathy and many here can relate to it. You suddenly being discarded like that is very common and it does seem that your ex tried to cause issues that didn't need to be caused. Being left stunned and bewildered is a horrible feeling and it leaves us lost and broken. Nothing you say surprises me and for the most part, it's very relatable.

You are not alone here.

[PretentiousBread]

what part of how she did it bothers you the most, and why?

That it was done in public, that I was blindsided by it - yes we'd not had a good conversation the night before, but it was a date, that she set up just that morning.

That her attitude was nauseating, she was getting off on the power trip, and that her devaluation of me was brutal. It was cheap and disrespectful in the extreme. It felt like a personal attack, revenge, humiliation. She'd never remotely spoken to me like this before, ever. There was no overt verbal abuse before this, it really shook me.

And what sickens me, is I can't help but get out of my mind the idea that she literally left the bar beforehand and told her pals she'd be back after dumping me (the restaurant was literally next door). And more than likely my replacement was in there and she just fled into his arms. I still can't quite believe it actually happened, I didn't think she was capable of being like that, the more I think about it the more enraged I am, a mixture of disgust, anger and terrible hurt.

My mind races with thoughts of envy and jealousy about her cheaply disposing of me and just getting with someone else so easily, while I'm left shocked, betrayed and heart broken. I still get chest pains just recounting this all, that's what put me off replying until now, it puts me into a furious mood. I realise this is just my imagination, but the odds that she didn't follow up with this Italian guy who was messaging her are slim to none, they worked in the same building. It makes sense that she had some drinks, he was there, and she just couldn't be bothered even going through the date with me and got with him instead.

I randomly came across her profile on Quora, and I noticed she'd only upvoted a solitary post on that site, and it was a post about leaving a date midway, she upvoted it the day after discarding me. I'm assuming this was her telling herself that there was nothing wrong with what she did, in order to avoid feelings of shame.

I noticed however on her FB the next day, she was very active, sharing pics of her and her kids (she seemed to like using them as props for those sweet, sweet FB likes), and that she shared a memory of her best friend (who had been ignoring her for some time). I think she was quite lonely that day.

My only solace comes in a post of 2010's that I felt may be applicable to my situation:

""There is a wish to control the bad object in order to avoid persecution or to avoid fear of abandonment. You are a bad object because of the previous fight. In her mind, she knows (expects) that you may abandon her.  She needs to Control this abandonment by attacking first. The attack can take the form of biting humor, excessive candor, public embarrassment, and rage. The compulsion is intended to facilitate the destruction of the bad object (that's YOU) to make it suffer and to control it.

Tearing you down is also a way to keep you from leaving. It is classic BPD and one of the reasons that the disorder is so heinous. They facilitate their own abandonment."

After leaving the restaurant, I never messaged her once, just completely vanished and blocked her on everything I could the next day. Curiously, late one night she messaged my FB business page (just over 30 days later. '30 day no contact to get your ex back' may have been what was going on here, though could be coincidence of course) Here was the exchange:

upwBPDex:
"Hi, I am aware you don’t want to speak to me, I’ve tried messaging you. Can you send me my ticket or send me the money I paid please."

Me:
"Hey, the tickets are seated together, there’s no use in us having a ticket each.
The nightclub (both taxi there and back to xxxx, entry and drinks) pizza and shopping, bowling tickets, dumped in xxxx all adds up to around £150 that I paid for both of us on the understanding that we did things equally and you pay your fair share. I was never gonna split hairs and ask for you to pay me that back. The ticket was £65, we’ll be reasonable and call that quits.

Unless you wanna buy my ticket off me and I’ll send you them both? Would be happy to do that. You’ve my number so can PayPal me if that’s what you’d like. If so just let me know your email address and I can forward them both on."

upwBPDex:
"Wow, I paid for bowling tickets also, always paid half for dinners etc and bought you back drinks also. You didn’t pay the bill in xxxx you paid for your own food.. taxi to xxxx is never more than £12. And Ive paid for our taxis also previously. I don’t feel I owe you any money at all. I’m quite shocked you see things that way. However I shouldn’t be surprised that you wouldn’t be one track minded and feel that things done on dates don’t factor into actually buying something individual like a ticket. Had I purchased the tickets, and you gave me cash specifically for that ticket I wouldn’t hold it over you and talk about how many drinks or taxis I took to come meet you etc etc that I spent to see you. It’s ridiculous. However I will leave it at that. Thank god I split up with you."

Me:
"Ok well it was nice speaking to you again and I hope you have a good birthday and a nice time in Italy"

Me:
"Thought about it there, and you do have a right to the ticket regardless of what else was/wasn’t paid for. I’ll send you it as it makes no odds to me, I’d just assumed with the pathetic way you broke up that I’d never hear from you again.

What’s your email address please?"

upwBPDex:
"It’s okay just leave it"


I paid over £75 on her on the preceding 2 dates and she bought me two drinks back, and that was her response to me. "I don't feel I owe you any money at all" i.e. feelings = facts to her. I also laughed that she defended herself by mentioning her buying the bowling tickets as well (was meant to be after dinner), well that'd be her fault then if she was just going to dump me?

I bit the bullet and transferred her the money for the ticket as I figured I'd be the bigger person, then blocked her again. I had to temporarily unblock her in order to reply from my business page, and I noticed her last two profile pictures being mega provocative, edgy pose, bit of bra, bit of cleavage, huge earrings, hair and makeup done up, unprecedented effort level for her. Next one was of her and a friend hugging, again she'd never done this before (only ever had herself and her kids in her profile pic). I wonder if her friend became her new 'favourite person'.

2010 made a post based on a similar story of a pwBPD contacting their ex, and it seemed to match up with what I think was going on in her head:

"She's not cunning, she's in pain. She is upset over the loss of her part-time object (that's you) that represents both the good and the bad in her. This is an attachment disorder. Borderlines yearn to be whole and when they lose the idea of their part time objects, they become insufferable.

The yearning for reward is what drives Borderlines to constantly fantasize about becoming whole- but they mistakenly think they need others to do this.  Therefore, they find partners that allow for their projective identification to be mirrored back.  That is the seduction process of Borderline that is perceived by you to be cunning- but it's actually compulsive and unconscious.  The disorder is about fantasy and fusion with a perfect object- only to suffer reality when it is tested. Panic and escapism results.

Her emails are a way for her to alleviate the anxiety concerning the loss of her part time object (that's you) as well as her part-time self.  This is a way for her to self medicate as well as to self harm.  Continuing to battle with a withdrawing part time object keeps her in a fugue state and dissociated from entering abandonment depression. It unfortunately, also places her in a very primitive state of paranoid/schizoid, which splits the part time object into all good and all bad and prevents her from entering the depressive position and keeps her from becoming a whole Human being."

[PretentiousBread]

Thoughts?

[PretentiousBread]

Hi prententiousbread.

My ex too struggles with the basic concept of empathy and many here can relate to it. You suddenly being discarded like that is very common and it does seem that your ex tried to cause issues that didn't need to be caused. Being left stunned and bewildered is a horrible feeling and it leaves us lost and broken. Nothing you say surprises me and for the most part, it's very relatable.

You are not alone here.

It's somehow comforting knowing that others have gone through this, but it does nothing to change what's happened or the pain of the loss inflicted. Almost feels as if I lost this girl to an apocalyptic zombie virus. She was no angel before, but she seemed to turn into the devil.

[once removed]

Thoughts?

you feel that the date was an ambush over the fight and that this explains the breakup:

There is a wish to control the bad object in order to avoid persecution or to avoid fear of abandonment. You are a bad object because of the previous fight.

and the email may have originated as an attempt to get back together and became:

Her emails are a way for her to alleviate the anxiety concerning the loss of her part time object (that's you) as well as her part-time self. This is a way for her to self medicate as well as to self harm.

do i have that right?

[PretentiousBread]

you feel that the date was an ambush over the fight and that this explains the breakup:

and the email may have originated as an attempt to get back together and became:

do i have that right?

"you feel that the date was an ambush over the fight and that this explains the breakup"

What I've been ruminating on is whether it was a genuine ambush, or if she was just in two minds and impulsively decided to end it in the heat of the moment. She was half drunk, and I think she took my kiss going for the cheek at the beginning as a rejection, felt slighted, and on top of me upsetting her by merely trying to talk openly about us the previous night, that she wanted to punish me. She had in the back of her mind that she at least had this other fella who'd messaged her as a backup, so she could fall back on that. Something like that anyway.

Sometimes my own neuroticism gets the better of me and I think horrible thoughts that are unfounded (except for her previous behaviour, that is), but I suppose rationally, she probably didn't plan this out. Booking the bowling tickets herself made little sense if she was planning on ditching me all along. What melted my head at the time was this idea that she didn't care at all about me so suddenly, but I think it's a typical case of what you see on the surface with BPD being rather different to what's going on under the hood.

"and the email may have originated as an attempt to get back together and became:"

Yes I think she had expected me to chase her, but I just vanished into thin air. I don't believe she actually cared about the ticket (as evidenced by the fact she said to leave it when I did concede that she was entitled to it), but it was a perfect excuse to re-establish contact. Towards the end of the message, it looks like she was planning on speaking to me properly, but was so annoyed at my response that she would 'leave it at that'.

I think she was hurt that I wasn't begging for her back and felt rejected when I pointed out that the tickets for the show were seated together, so made little sense having a ticket each (typical BPD, ignoring the fact that she was the one who discarded me). The level of anger that comes across makes me think she still did have a great deal of feelings towards me. If I ditched someone over dinner that I no longer had feelings for, who I knew paid for most of my previous 2 dates, I'd not have had the nerve to message them looking for a ticket back. Surely you'd feel guilty if that were the case and leave the poor person alone?

I think this post describes what was going on in her head:

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-my-ex-lover-so-angry-with-me/answer/Chloe-Thompson-168

[once removed]

i read a lot of 2010s posts when i was going through it, too, trying to make sense of things.

I think this post describes what was going on in her head

i think that if you really want to understand what was going on in her head, these theories about other peoples relationships/circumstances are not likely going to give you the insight you seek, about what happened to you with her.

sometimes the answers can be simpler, or they can be more complicated. sometimes they can be painful, sometimes they clarify, and sometimes both.

more than likely though, your narrative about what happened will probably evolve over time; it probably already has.

she probably didn't plan this out

i think you are probably right about this.

What melted my head at the time was this idea that she didn't care at all about me so suddenly, but I think it's a typical case of what you see on the surface with BPD being rather different to what's going on under the hood.

why do you/did you think that she suddenly didnt care about you at all?

what do you think was going on under the hood?

when you got the email from her about the ticket, how did you feel?

[once removed]

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