Now I Actualy Have Anger Issues Myself - I Never Did Before

[Depression = 72% of members]

This is my first time posting on anything.  I'm really scared my wife will find out that I'm talking about this even though there no way her name or my name would ever get out as a result of me doing this.  She'd also be furious that I'm on this site when (according to her) I should be focusing on my mental health issues instead of hers.  I do have my own stuff.  I'm bipolar, ADD, I skew to the narcissistic side of things - and I've been getting help for 20 years. One thing I've never had a problem with was anger.  I probably held it in too much which wasn't great, but I didn't really ever get Angry/angry.  It makes me uncomfortable and anxious.  In the last couple of years (my wife and I have been together for several years), I am discovering that I am developing an anger problem.  When she goes after me emotionally, she's relentless, and she goes after the most vulnerable spot possible.  She says the thing you should never say.  She says the thing you can never take back.  Sometimes it feels like she wont stop until I join her in her rage.  I've gotten there a few times to the point where you could describe my responses to her as emotionally abusive.  Last time, I went after her just like she comes after me.  It's a week later and I still have a hard time thinking about how I acted.  I don't know how this happened to me or how to fix it. I love my wife, but I don't want to turn into her.

[DC Dad]

This is my first time posting on anything.  I'm really scared my wife will find out that I'm talking about this even though there no way her name or my name would ever get out as a result of me doing this.  She'd also be furious that I'm on this site when (according to her) I should be focusing on my mental health issues instead of hers.  I do have my own stuff.  I'm bipolar, ADD, I skew to the narcissistic side of things - and I've been getting help for 20 years. One thing I've never had a problem with was anger.  I probably held it in too much which wasn't great, but I didn't really ever get Angry/angry.  It makes me uncomfortable and anxious.  In the last couple of years (my wife and I have been together for several years), I am discovering that I am developing an anger problem.  When she goes after me emotionally, she's relentless, and she goes after the most vulnerable spot possible.  She says the thing you should never say.  She says the thing you can never take back.  Sometimes it feels like she wont stop until I join her in her rage.  I've gotten there a few times to the point where you could describe my responses to her as emotionally abusive.  Last time, I went after her just like she comes after me.  It's a week later and I still have a hard time thinking about how I acted.  I don't know how this happened to me or how to fix it. I love my wife, but I don't want to turn into her.

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[once removed]

hi DC Dad, and

She'd also be furious that I'm on this site when (according to her) I should be focusing on my mental health issues instead of hers.

theres a grain of truth here, in that we can either use a psychology label constructively or destructively. bpd is a difficult personality type. information and tools can help us cope, help us support our partners, and help us steer our relationship on a healthier trajectory.

experts will certainly tell you that you need a strong support system. im glad you reached out.

When she goes after me emotionally, she's relentless, and she goes after the most vulnerable spot possible.
...
Last time, I went after her just like she comes after me.

i hear you. i said and did some things in my relationship that im ashamed of even today. when was the last time? how did things get there?

[isilme]

Sometimes it feels like she wont stop until I join her in her rage

I believe they need to provoke us to their level of emotional dysfunction for a few reasons. 

I think it validates their feelings for us to also be disturbed.  There is nothing more invalidating of your feelings for someone else to be calm or less disturbed when you want to punch holes in a wall (so I assume, I've never wanted to punch holes in a wall).  So she will poke and poke and poke until she can get a response to match her desired reaction from you.  All you can do, really, is deny it to her, either by stonewalling and not reacting, react blandly, unemotionally, or try to leave for a bit.

I think it also gives them a way to "ret-con" it to where your anger is why they got angry, even if that's totally backward in reality. 

And simply, misery loves company and BPD seems to be a bundle of misery. 

My H admitted to me once several years back, during a rather "good" period, that he realized he can't process feelings until he yells at someone.  It doesn't even have to be the someone who caused the feelings, or even things that a someone can cause (ie, rain). 

So if it rains on a day he wanted to go outside and do something, he needs to yell... at me.  And he will invent a reason to do it if I don't provide one, or he will take something minuscule, and blow it up so he can vent his feelings.  At me.  When I am in a good place physically and emotionally, I can let the attacks run off me like water off a duck.  I grew up with 2 BPD parents, insults and mind games are "normal" to me.  But lately I have been rather ill, very tired, and my stockpile of resilience has disappeared, so it's much harder now.  I was pretty lucky yesterday, a bout of food poisoning in the early hours of the morning plus my chronic illness combined left me far too tired to really absorb much of what he was saying.  It also kept my reactions and responses dull and to a minimum.  I guess I should find a way to reach that state of medium chill/grey rock every time we have an episode. 

Look at your interactions - have you seen WarGames?  the 1980s version?  There is mention of our Defense Condition  -DefCon level with regards to nuclear war.  5 is the lowest level of conflict, 1 is the highest, nuclear war is imminent. 

DefCon 5 and 4, you can have a fairly normal day.  Pleasant, even.  This is when you calmly, carefully bring up uncomfortable things using SET to try to move them along (for me it's things like needing to go buy a car), otherwise this is when you try to enjoy life. 

DefCon 3 - your pwBPD is prickly, something is going on in their head - looking at patterns and being aware of things like work and family issues, holidays or birthdays, plus health can help you see what "might" be down the road, and you can step in now and validate and mitigate what is reasonable.  The storm clouds are brewing.  With luck and care, you might shift back to DefCon 4 or 5, you may have a mini-blow up that lets all the steam out for now. 

DefCon 2-1 - a big blow up is going to happen no matter what, the only question is can you keep from adding fuel to the fire, even if it means you "remember" you need to be anywhere else.  This is not the time they will listen, this is not the time to reach an agreement, a consensus, to express your feelings - it's all going to be lost in the storm, so don't waste your time.  This is the time to protect you, often by just not being there to accept abuse.  Not always possible to leave, I know, late nights, illness, transportation issues, nowhere to go all can factor into when you can viably leave.  In that case, I work really hard to simply not make it worse, try to not give in to my want or needs to yell back, to try to get past active rage and into silent treatment.  At least in silent treatment, I can get some rest.  It's uncomfortable, but it's better than active rage.

And then he resets, sometimes toxic shame comes in putting him at a weird DefCon 6. 

I know we all want to have our say.  And we often don't get it. 

[DC Dad]

i hear you. i said and did some things in my relationship that im ashamed of even today. when was the last time? how did things get there?

It was May 22.  It's the anniversary of my mother's death from pancreatic cancer.  My fist child (with my ex-wife) was born 8 hours after she died. 
We were arguing about something and I said I just needed to stop and that I just couldn't on that day.  She laughed hard and forced, mocked my voice, said "oh do you miss your mommy" and on and on.  Eventually I hit the roof.  I was yelling which I never do, and I said "You have no frame of reference to know how much pain you are inflicting.  I can't wait for one of your parents to die so I can do this to you."

I'm a good guy.  I'm not perfect, but I'm a good guy.  I don't know who that person was who said that.  I can't become that person.

[DC Dad]

So she will poke and poke and poke until she can get a response to match her desired reaction from you.  All you can do, really, is deny it to her, either by stonewalling and not reacting, react blandly, unemotionally, or try to leave for a bit.

Yeah.  That's the trick.  But it's exhausting.  I know I should just walk away and I usually do, but then she starts blowing up my phone with just horrible texts.  Also I worry when I leave because there have been occasions when she cut herself when I leave - even if I'm clear I'm coming back.  Also, to be blunt, this woman I love have a PhD in really pissing me off. 

My H admitted to me once several years back, during a rather "good" period, that he realized he can't process feelings until he yells at someone.  It doesn't even have to be the someone who caused the feelings, or even things that a someone can cause (ie, rain). 


We have to take out victories where we find them.  Even if it was just for brief period it's always so self-affirming when they get all self aware and expressive.  I'm glad you had that.  I've had moments with my W and I find myself clinging to them. 

Look at your interactions - have you seen WarGames?  the 1980s version?  There is mention of our Defense Condition  -DefCon level with regards to nuclear war.  5 is the lowest level of conflict, 1 is the highest, nuclear war is imminent. 

First - I love WarGames.  And I really like the DefCon system you described.  I'm going to try that.  At least it will give me a sense of what I'm dealing with and I won't be so surprised all the time.  I think I get into trouble when she's at a 3 and I try to nudge her back to a 2.  That's self defeating.  Thank you for your response.
 

[DC Dad]

Sorry guys - this is my first time on a message board.

[isilme]

Yeah.  That's the trick.  But it's exhausting.  I know I should just walk away and I usually do, but then she starts blowing up my phone with just horrible texts.  Also I worry when I leave because there have been occasions when she cut herself when I leave - even if I'm clear I'm coming back.

Yeah, I don't do so well with the texts, and I get horrible anxiety at times when I do manage to leave.  I try to leave when things are about a 3 on the scale, 3.5 maybe.  Once it's all blown up it's usually too late at night for me to get anywhere. 

The self-harm is also a cruddy trick.  My mom used to do this, I know some on here will advocate if you seriously fear for her to call the authorities.  I always fear this will escalate even more. 

[DC Dad]

Yeah, I don't do so well with the texts, and I get horrible anxiety at times when I do manage to leave.  I try to leave when things are about a 3 on the scale, 3.5 maybe.  Once it's all blown up it's usually too late at night for me to get anywhere. 

The self-harm is also a cruddy trick.  My mom used to do this, I know some on here will advocate if you seriously fear for her to call the authorities.  I always fear this will escalate even more. 

Thank you isilme.  I'm so terrified and lonely.  I'll be strong for my kids, but I just don't see any daylight ahead.  My wife is the first person in my life with BPD (that I know of).  I can't imagine being the child of one.  My W's mom is probably BPD too.  I'm sorry for your struggle too

[once removed]

She laughed hard and forced, mocked my voice, said "oh do you miss your mommy"

wow.

is there ever an apology after the fact?

[Red5]

Eventually I hit the roof.  I was yelling which I never do, and I said "You have no frame of reference to know how much pain you are inflicting.  I can't wait for one of your parents to die so I can do this to you."

I'm a good guy.  I'm not perfect, but I'm a good guy.  I don't know who that person was who said that.  I can't become that person.

Eventually... after years of this type of verbal and emotional abuse... the passive non will one day explode... I’ve been there myself DC Dad.

I also describe myslef as an easy going guy, a forgiver, a just let it go person... but sometimes the borderline will just take things too far, cut deep, scorched earth,

And then we lose it, and it comes out sideways...

And then, most times...the borderline will have sufficient validation to immediately turn into victim mode... and yet further demean, and devalue the non... that would be you and I.

A no win situation, I’ve noted over the years that each and everytime I was hurting emotionally... name the reason, eg’ death of a family member as you relate... I was NOT allowed to let it be about me...for even a few hours, or a day... at the first sign of grief...depression...she pounced onto me...attacked me, when I was most vulnerable...

And when I retorted, fought back, I played right into her hands... I was the “bad one”.

Your story makes me remember my own experiences...

I’ve come to, understand... that the borderline can not tolerate weakness from their partners... it scares them, it triggers their abandonment fear... I know it sounds crazy, but the borderline cannot tolerate weakness from their husband (in this case)... they always flip out, split you, and demean you, everytime.

Hang in there DC Dad, keep posting,

Red5

[waverider]

This is why you have to learn healthy ways to disengage when you feel your boundaries being crossed.  There is a whole lot of study and information you will find here about "disengaging" and "boundaries". You can't go toe to toe with a person with BPD without actually flipping. As that is their goal, not amiable resolution. They will use a mixture of facts, distortions and fiction to tie you in knots

So why do they want you to "flip out" Because this gives them an avenue to project their anger on to you, once you pick it up they than use that to validate themselves as being the victim and you the persecutor. Of course this only angers you more and you then can become the bully they accuse you of (you provide them with "exhibit A"). You hate yourself and apologise, thereby even more validating their victimhood.

This is their dysfunctional way they calm themselves, they get over it, but you are are still simmering (or in their view hold a childish grudge). The more this pattern repeats the more you preemptive you are, even blowing up about what you assume they are going to do, even if they dont. Your whole personality changes.

This is why you have to learn the previously mentioned responses of establishing what you have boundaries around. These will be your own weaknesses and insecurities, as that is what they will aim at. Then have pre thought out ways of removing yourself. Dont just wait until it blows up and go for a walk, you will simply ruminate over it  rather than let it wash away. Always good to have a back list of useful places you need to be and things to do that you can just work in as tensions start to build.

[waverider]

I’ve come to, understand ... that the borderline can not tolerate weakness from their partners ... it scares them, it triggers their abandonment fear... I know it sounds crazy, but the borderline cannot tolerate weakness from their husband (in this case)... they always flip out, split you, and demean you,... everytime.

Hang in there DC Dad, keep posting,

Red5

The ironic thing here is they do not like the very person they try to turn you into. This is why pandering to their demands never works. They need someone to say no, to provide the consistent boundaries they lack,. If you give they will simply move the goal post.

The skill is to know what boundaries are important and worth making and being consistent. Yes they will have their tantrum, but they do get over things, especially if its consistent.

[isilme]

I’ve come to, understand ... that the borderline can not tolerate weakness from their partners

I can see this.  My H might resent a d fear my independence and my ability to muddle thru things all on my own, with little to no help from anyone as it means I could possibly leave and abandon him, but what scares him more seems to be my asking him to step up and provide even just emotional support for me.  It puts him in a place where he might fail, and he can't stand that. 

[DC Dad]

wow.

is there ever an apology after the fact?

I’d accept it if it were offered. Instead, I have now apologized for being verbally abusive in my outburst response. I must be out of my mind.

[DC Dad]

This is why you have to learn the previously mentioned responses of establishing what you have boundaries around. These will be your own weaknesses and insecurities, as that is what they will aim at. Then have pre thought out ways of removing yourself. Dont just wait until it blows up and go for a walk, you will simply ruminate over it  rather than let it wash away. Always good to have a back list of useful places you need to be and things to do that you can just work in as tensions start to build.

Yes. I try so hard. But I have so many buttons, and thy are so sensitive that she has often gotten me to engage as I was walking out. I’m kind of in a no win. One of my biggest fears in life is that someone I love might be mad at me. So that’s not great.

[Ventak]

DC Dad, you sound just like me...  Thanks for sharing.

I always apologize.  It helps.  But I only apologize for things I'm truly sorry for.  This can be something as small as her being upset.  I don't accept responsibility for her getting upset, just that I'm sorry that she was.

I've done it enough that 10-20 percent of the time she will reciprocate now.

[DC Dad]

You can't go toe to toe with a person with BPD without actually flipping. As that is their goal, not amiable resolution..

Mark Twain said (and I don't mean to demean BPDs by a strict comparison) but: "You should never argue with with a fool, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." 

[waverider]

Mark Twain said (and I don't mean to demean BPDs by a strict comparison) but: "You should never argue with with a fool, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." 

The reality of this is that you are playing by separate rules. You are handicapped by a sense of fairness and limited by truth and reality. The reactive nature of pwBPD means they are not slowed by thinking first, and they can seamlessly blend truth, distortion and fabrication. You spend much of the time trying untangle the mix up. Its just best not to go there.

The danger with issuing apologies is that it can undermine any boundaries you are trying to reinforce as it simply normalises the fall out as something that "normal" people do and then kiss and make up. Nothing changes. Not saying you shouldn't apologise but you have to be very careful with it. If pushed to extremes so that you get snappy, should you apologise for not having infinite patience? This could simply encourage them to push you until you do snap and accept responsibly, the baggage is then handed over, mission accomplished.

How many arguments do you have that keep going until you accept responsibility? It may be for a small part from your perspective, but it will be a larger part, if not whole, from theirs.

How many times have you been quietly going about your business when an avalanche of toxic accustations/insults/abuse lands on your head and you end up apologising for something just to keep the peace. This is not your fault, you simply end up feeling lessened just to ease someone else's turmoil. Constantly repeating this and it will have an impact on your on self esteem.

An apology for being human should not be seen as an entitlement or expectation.

[DC Dad]

The reality of this is that you are playing by separate rules. You are handicapped by a sense of fairness and limited by truth and reality. The reactive nature of pwBPD means they are not slowed by thinking first, and they can seamlessly blend truth, distortion and fabrication. You spend much of the time trying untangle the mix up. Its just best not to go there.

An apology for being human should not be seen as an entitlement or expectation.

Thank you so much for this.  You're right of course.  Fairness is huge for me.  I'm an attorney who fights for people who can't afford attorneys.  I'm always looking to balance the scales with my W.  It's never going to happen.  If I can learn that I can at least be more at peace with myself.