Jealousy

[Matthew19:26]

My wife often accuses me of looking at other women when I'm not.  This creates a lot of conflict.  Is this common with BPD?

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[once removed]

it is common in people with low self esteem and insecure attachment styles, both of which are common with BPD.

how do you respond when it happens?

[Red5]

My wife often accuses me of looking at other women when I'm not...

On the other side of that quarter... I used to hear quite often,

“your stuck with me warts and all”

“your cute, I think I’ll keep you”

“you can’t get rid of me your stuck with me”

“I’d be lost without you”

“I feel safe with you”

“you have a calming effect on me”

That last bullet really perplexed me, still does to this day,

In regards to your comment... I would often and purposefully -willfully ensure that my eyes did not wonder if another beautiful woman met us in the merge, passed us on the street, fill in the _______ .

I would even look away, to ensure her “self” was not injured...

I perceived her to be just that delicate of a person,

I can tell you that being “on point”, and at this hightened state of “introspective” all times while with her in the public was extremely exhausting... I was for ever more fearful of “setting her off”.

I was always of the modus operandi of high sensitivity around her, even long before the epiphany of borderline,

I also suspect some traits of histrionic and “to the right” of the spectrum ’narcissism’ in her personality...

To quote her adult S31, “Mom is a pain in the ass”... her adult D33 once told me, “welcome to my  childhood”...

This is tough stuff Matthew 19:26,

Knowledge and understanding is key, don’t ever stop learning...

Red5

[Steps31]

Red5, I completely know that feeling of having to look away. Sometimes I'd almost feel like asking for horse blinders, or blinkers.

[Matthew19:26]

Red5:

"I would often and purposefully -willfully ensure that my eyes did not wonder if another beautiful woman met us in the merge, passed us on the street ..."

I already do that, but it's not enough.  Let's say we're at a restaurant.  I'm doing my best to not look around.  But, when my eye detects motion out of the corner of my eye, and at that moment I'm not *actively* trying to control where I'm looking, my head naturally turns to find out what that movement is.  I don't even know if it's a person, if it's male, female, young, old, attractive or unattractive.  All my brain knows is there's movement and my head swivels.

Sometimes in those situations, it's a man that randomly walked by, and I think to myself "Thank God that was a man and not an attractive woman!"  If it happens to be an attractive woman, the rest of the day (or more) can become a nightmare.  This is no way to live. 

[Matthew19:26]

Red5:

Here's another variation. Let's say we're at a restaurant.  We're having conversation and everything is normal.  With any conversation, there comes a lull.  At these moments, I tend to look around the room to check out my environment, without even thinking about it.  God forbid I happen to see an attractive woman when I look around the room.  The conversation with my wife picks up again, and another momentary lull happens again.  Without thinking about it, I may look around the room again and happen to see the same attractive woman for the second time.

At this point, I could be accused to looking the second time, and in her mind, it's proof-positive that I'm trying to check out the attractive woman.  This may not happen right away, but it could come up later.

[once removed]

its probably not about whether or not you are actually looking at another woman.

its about very strong feelings and fears, pertaining to very low self esteem, and how she sees herself compared to others.

so defending yourself, arguing about it, is probably the last thing you want to do, because it makes you look guilty.

we have a great workshop here on how to deal with a jealous partner. i had one myself: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=78324.0

[Wrongturn1]

Yep, same problem here, and heaven forbid we go to a restaurant and happen to get a pretty waitress.  This jealousy thing makes me a nervous wreck whenever we have to go out in public together.

[Matthew19:26]

once removed:  much thanks for the link.

[isilme]

I am a woman and get the same comments from my H.  He assumes I am looking for a replacement because his self esteem is incredibly damaged.

I don’t JADE and I try to simply ignore the invalid comments.  Accusations are fleeting these days, and usually in the middle of extreme dysregulation.

How is she most days? Does this happen noticeably more in a pattern (perhaps about every 28 days is a huge deal?).

Is she feeling like she is aging?  Has she been thru a period of stress or illness?  Does she have sisters? A BPD mother herself?

 I’m codependent, not BPD, and I hate the way I no longer look like my 20s.  Chronic illness in the last few years have bags, wrinkles, and excess weight making ME feel horrible, and H makes comments that someone not knowing he has BPD quite upset... I now ignore them or see that he believes he’s ‘pulling pigtails’ when he’s just making ugly or inappropriate comments.  That’s a battle I don’t have the energy to fight. 

But I know women can have a level of insecurity about their looks, desirability, and pwbpd have a higher level.  So she’s got it from two sides, there. 

It’s not about you, but she needs to use you as a ‘reason’ for her feelings.  It’s not that she feels insecure (in her mind), it’s that you make her feel it (no, you don’t, but she can’t accept that right now.).

Not sure if this helps, when I know H thinks I’m ignoring him or possibly looking at someone else... I make sure to have made an observation ‘that’s a strange hat’ ‘I thought that looked like my 5th grade teacher’ ‘look out the window, cool car’ ‘oh, they have key lime pie, yay’.  I tend to do this anyway, often am hyper aware of my surroundings, (mild CPTSD from childhood I think, look for exits and such, jump at loud sounds, fast movements). 

It’s a deflection, not so much a lie, and can side track the assumption you could only be ogling long legs or some other attribute, and helps if you can manage a hapless facial expression.  I find many things with BPD can improve if you can steer things away from dangerous ground, recognize a quick expression of emotion versus a trip down the rabbit hole... Look!  Squirrel!

[Red5]

else... I make sure to have made an observation ‘that’s a strange hat’ ‘I thought that looked like my 5th grade teacher’ ‘look out the window, cool car’ ‘oh, they have key lime pie, yay’.  I tend to do this anyway, often am hyper aware of my surroundings, “look squirrel!”

Goodness gracious !... I do the same thing !

As if to have a pre-packaged explanation as to why she notices me “looking around”.

Not only does it seem that persons whom are borderline use the exact same operating manual (globally), but we as the ‘nons’ seem to all use the exact same coping mechanisms!

To quote the guy from one of my fav television shows (Giorgio A. Tsoukalos)... “It’s Aliens !”

Yes !

But seriously... being at that heightened state of alert most if not all the time when we are with our bpd’s does make the brain “run a little hot” most days.

This has long term effects on us, yet to be determined.

Red5  

[Enabler]

Controversial alert 

We are human.

Human's are designed (either by millions of years of evolution or a one off creation by God) to look, to see, to be attracted to others... that's what we do.

The choice is never whether or not we notice or are attracted to other people, it is whether or not we act upon it. An individual who thinks they are the single most attractive being on the planet is delusional. Not least, different people are attracted to different characteristics so who's definition of attractiveness does one use? The rational conclusion to come to then is that there are always more attractive people out there, and they are likely to be noticed.

Maybe in the instance you are not consciously leering over, or cracking on to other people but none the less you are likely sub-consciously weighing up peoples attractiveness.

A relationship between two people is about accepting that there are likely... in fact definitely more attractive people out there BUT that each of you commits to forego other attractive people and NOT ACT upon that attraction. You commit to turn away from temptation and pull yourself away from placing yourself in harms way from temptation.

There is no biological mechanism that I know of which switches off the human's brain to being attracted to other people once they have found a mate other than that of choice and commitment.

The cornerstone of this acceptance is trust. pwBPD rarely trust other people, they rarely trust themselves and they almost definitely can't trust the consistency of their feeling and commitment to their partner... therefore, how on earth could they have trust that their partner would have any more consistency in their feeling and commitment to them.

Feeling trumps evidence, evidence does not feed into feeling... no amount of evidence can produce the feeling of trust.

What would she do and say if you said "Yes, I did notice how hot that woman is over there, what of it?"

FWIW I prefer not going to the beach, or to hotel swimming pools. We now get a private villa with pool. I'm not sure this was a conscious decision but I felt very uneasy that I was being assessed for my naturally roving eyes when at a hotel etc. We've had some terrific arguments in the past over someone around a pool or on a beach I didn't even interact with.

Enabler   

[Red5]

I am reading a book (audio mp3 listening in the jeep to and from work)…

'The Object of My Affection Is in My Reflection: Coping with Narcissists // Book by Rokelle Lerner'

I don't know if its on bpdfam in the "book review section'… I briefly looked, but did not see it (mods?).

Anyways, we know that pw/bpd may present traits of narcissism, depending on the spectrum… 'waif-hermit-queen-witch'… so what is presented in this book, I've found to be insightful, helpful (hopefully), when engaging the tools described here.

I am in chapter seven (7)… and its talking to how npd's effect both romantic, familial, and career work relationships.

Jealousy… excerpt (lose) from the book this morning… Barny and his wife Wilma are watching a movie with the movie star "Angelina Joe", Barney makes a few comments, observations on how the Angelina Joe persona is a very established actor, and has the ability to articulate the scenes… Wilma then says… "so you think Angelina Joe is prettier than me Barny… you don't love me do you, I hate you,   YOU!"… (this is called "narcissistic wound")… Wilma, now in a rage… then gets up off the sofa, storms off to the bedroom, and slams the door… the evening is now over… Barny will be sleeping on the sofa again tonight… obviously having fallen into a "comfort zone" with his bpd-npd wife Wilma once more… Barny thinks to himself, "but we were just watching a movie… and Wilma told me she likes the male character "Brad Nailer"… she in fact said she thinks his air to air refueling gear must be pretty big WTF!"

>: (

Barny goes and gets his pillow and blanket out of the hall closet, once more split black, and once again, didn't see it coming… sigh,

This book I'm reading… one of many now… another validation, confirmation for me, of what I've been dealing with... "insight".

Knowledge is power, power (cognitive thinking) is what keeps us from completely losing it sometimes… power over our instinctual impulses… because in these relationships, our regular issue, and trusty go to;  lensatic compass that we may trust to guide us away from having the urge to "fight back" (instinctual impulse) does not always show true north, the way out, or around the "swamp" on a sustained, and dependable basis (metaphor) due to the borderlines constant turmoil... got to think outside the "laws of gravity sometimes"… we read volumes about this… what goes on inside a bpd-npd relationship… up is not always up, and the points of the compass may spin wildly, thus leaving us confused and lost,

Keep posting Matthew19:26,

Red5

[isilme]

What would she do and say if you said "Yes, I did notice how hot that woman is over there, what of it?"

Exactly what the OP stated happens if he doesn't notice her - "You like her more than me, look at you you suck you're always thinking of leaving me, cheating on me, probably have cheated on me, thanks for ruining dinner by not being able to stop staring at other women, you jerk... blow up, cry, yell, sulk, etc"

The OP is not even looking... that is not the issue.  This is not based on him noticing women or not, but the mistaken perception by a disordered person that he is and that it maligns her.

But that is where her mind sits, so I find it good to re-direct the mind with a new topic, so it can't ruminate.  My H lacks the ability to marshall his mind at times, so I provide topics to help him.  He has an emotional disability.  Looking at them as fully capable is misleading - there may be no physical damage in their minds, but they have a mess of tangled wiring.  enabling it is one thing, pretending it's not there is another, and being mindful of it and learning strategies that aren't walking on eggshells but do recognize their inabilities and insecurities and mistaken perceptions seems to help navigate through those messed up wires. 

[Enabler]

Hey Isilme, I can't see where the OP says that. You maybe right but I don't see where he says that happens. I see where he eludes to saying nothing, he may even JADE, I don't know.

I guess what I'm getting at is the natural response is to JADE... which in effect is lying (in her mind) and making things worse. Rather than turning, facing the firestorm and saying something along the lines of what she believes to be the truth... SET almost.

"Hmmmm which one? Ahhhh yes, over there in the corner with the short black dress on? I can see why you think I might be attracted to her, she is very good looking isn't she. I reckon she gets a heck of a lot of attention... but you know what, I'm here at dinner with you because I choose to be here with you and I want to be here with you. Yes, I notice other women, I notice other men as well, I think that's human nature, a part of our brain we can never switch off... but you know what, I choose to be here with you. You can take or leave what I say, it's up to you."

Changing the topic just kicks the can down the road. It's also pretty obvious and seen as a lie.

Enabler

[isilme]

Let's say we're at a restaurant.  I'm doing my best to not look around.  But, when my eye detects motion out of the corner of my eye, and at that moment I'm not *actively* trying to control where I'm looking, my head naturally turns to find out what that movement is.  I don't even know if it's a person, if it's male, female, young, old, attractive or unattractive.  All my brain knows is there's movement and my head swivels.

He's not looking at anything.  He sees movement, his head moves on instinct, it could be a car, a bird, and she will assume based on her insecurity he could only be looking at an attractive woman to express his lack of desire and interest in her. 

This is not based on looking at women.  It's based on how insecure she is - so insecure she assumes that he's staring at women all over the palce and wants to make an arugument of it, ruining things like nice dinners.

I'd rather kick it down the road than have every dinner out ruined over something so silly, so ridiculous as the assumption that the ONLY reason my head might move is due to someone of the attractive sex being present, and if there is, the further assumption that I am no longer interested in my companion.     

Also, changing the topic may not be the best phrase - stop the train of thought in its tracks.  If she thinks immediately he is looking at a woman, but he actually just saw the waiter walk by, he can simply say, "ohm there's our waiter, hope our food comes soon," before she gets started.  It addresses her immediate concern before the head of steam gets rolling.  Preemptive strike. 

Yes, I notice other women, I notice other men as well, I think that's human nature, a part of our brain we can never switch off... but you know what, I choose to be here with you. You can take or leave what I say, it's up to you.

This is using logic to discuss an emotional topic with an emotionally dysregulated person.  At the moment of emotional dysregulation - logic does not work.  BPD does not allow us to just find the right words and make all the bad emotions causing the crazy behavior to go away.  And that phrase won't really satisfy many non-BPD women either - we're an insecure lot. 

[Enabler]

This is not based on looking at women.  It's based on how insecure she is - so insecure she assumes that he's staring at women all over the palce and wants to make an arugument of it, ruining things like nice dinners.

I'd rather kick it down the road than have every dinner out ruined over something so silly, so ridiculous as the assumption that the ONLY reason my head might move is due to someone of the attractive sex being present, and if there is, the further assumption that I am no longer interested in my companion.     

Her getting the hump with him is her way of transferring her irrational insecurities about herself to him. If he takes the irrational accusation seriously and defends himself... he's a liar and she'll feel vindicated for suspecting that he's grossly immoral. If he ignores it he's guilty as sin and again she's vindicated herself as well. If he pulls her in the direction of travel i.e. "Oh where where where is the hotty" (and I don't seriously suggest that phrasing, but maybe "which one?" (a bit Ju-Jitsu parents style) she'll eventually tie herself in knots. He's unlikely to change her penchant to feel what she feels, but he can show her that if she does make these comments he's not going to take them at all seriously and bat the emotional ball straight back at her. In essence he's de-weaponsing her accusations.

Non-BPD & BPD women check out men... Non-BPD & BPD women check out women... Non-BPD & BPD women check out their environment... (based on absolutely nothing) probably more than men. Is it for men to make Non-BPD / BPD women feel comfortable that men don't do the same as women? I think it's a persons responsibility to demonstrate as much as possible that they are trustworthy enough to not act upon those natural instincts rather than be deceitful by suggesting they don't exist. In Matthew19:26's case they don't exist (at that moment) but doesn't mean that he can't demonstrate that they could, and that would be totally normal of him to observe, but it would be abnormal for him to obsess or act. Kicking the can down the road ultimately means that all meals out are polluted by the same arguments rather than demonstrating powerfully and consistently over maybe a few meals out that 'the game' (which it is) is de-weaponised. "Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day, teach him how to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime."

Is it any different from a simple boundary?

Enabler     

[Matthew19:26]

isilme:

"He assumes I am looking for a replacement because his self esteem is incredibly damaged."

Yup.  My wife thinks I'm trying to replace her too.

"I don’t JADE and I try to simply ignore the invalid comments."

What is "JADE"?  I'd ignore them too if I could get away with it.  Once I'm accused, I have only two choices that I can think of: Deny or admit to something I didn't do.  Ignoring or not responding doesn't seem like an option.  She would only get more angry.


"How is she most days? Does this happen noticeably more in a pattern (perhaps about every 28 days is a huge deal?)."

She's 52 and she went into early menopause in her 30s, so she doesn't have a cycle.  But that's a good thought.

"Is she feeling like she is aging?"

Yes, and she says so.

"Has she been thru a period of stress or illness?"

No particular illness but she's been raped twice when she was in her late teens.  Her dad abandoned her when she was an infant and she's had 3 previous failed marriages - she was cheated on.

"Does she have sisters? A BPD mother herself?"

Her two adult children have BPD.
 
"But I know women can have a level of insecurity about their looks, desirability, and pwbpd have a higher level.  So she’s got it from two sides, there."

Double-whammy.

"It’s not about you, but she needs to use you as a ‘reason’ for her feelings.  It’s not that she feels insecure (in her mind), it’s that you make her feel it (no, you don’t, but she can’t accept that right now.)."

I get what you're saying.

"Not sure if this helps, when I know H thinks I’m ignoring him or possibly looking at someone else... I make sure to have made an observation ‘that’s a strange hat’ ‘I thought that looked like my 5th grade teacher’ ‘look out the window, cool car’ ‘oh, they have key lime pie, yay’.  I tend to do this anyway, often am hyper aware of my surroundings, (mild CPTSD from childhood I think, look for exits and such, jump at loud sounds, fast movements). It’s a deflection, not so much a lie, and can side track the assumption you could only be ogling long legs or some other attribute, and helps if you can manage a hapless facial expression.  I find many things with BPD can improve if you can steer things away from dangerous ground, recognize a quick expression of emotion versus a trip down the rabbit hole... Look!  Squirrel!"

That's a great technique.  LOL!  Thanks for sharing your experience and advice.

[Matthew19:26]

Enabler:

pwBPD rarely trust other people ...

On multiple occasions, I begged her to trust me and she point-blank told me "I don't trust anyone."  Therein lies the root of the problem.

[Matthew19:26]

she in fact said she thinks his air to air refueling gear must be pretty big

LOL!  I haven't heard it put that way before.

Knowledge is power, power (cognitive thinking) is what keeps us from completely losing it sometimes ...

Right on.  It DOES help.

[Matthew19:26]

isilme:

The OP is not even looking... that is not the issue.  This is not based on him noticing women or not, but the mistaken perception by a disordered person that he is and that it maligns her.

Right on, you got the gist of the post.

[Matthew19:26]

isilme

This is using logic to discuss an emotional topic with an emotionally dysregulated person.  At the moment of emotional dysregulation - logic does not work.  BPD does not allow us to just find the right words and make all the bad emotions causing the crazy behavior to go away.

I'm a VERY logical person and have been beating my head against a boulder with her.  I'm trying to defuse the situation with logic when the issue is actually emotion.  You're right.  In those moments, I need to figure out a way to reassure her insecurities more than anything else.

And that phrase won't really satisfy many non-BPD women either - we're an insecure lot.

So true.  Woman + BPD = Twice as Insecure

[isilme]

JADE = Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain

You can justify and explain sometimes, using tools like SET (Sympathy, Empathy, Truth) at calm times, times when they are not in full-on dysregulation.  But once the line has been crossed, it just makes them madder and wastes your time. 

Both of these should be in the Lessons, to see what others have written about them, using them/avoiding them. 

[Witz_End]

… then gBarny thinks to himself, … "but we were just watching a movie … and Wilma told me she likes the male character "Brad Nailer" … she in fact said she thinks his air to air refueling gear must be pretty big

I laughed because this reminded me of something.

I really don't normally deal with jealousy from her, especially not in the way you see in this thread.  Sometimes there are subtle things.  But, there was one case that made me do a "wwwhhhat the...?"

It was our anniversary years ago.  We had a wonderful night... a dinner cruise around the city, taking in the lights of the city from a bluff across the river, etc.  As we were winding down , we were sitting on a curb or something along a street club goes were walking down every now and then.

We were sitting chatting and I was obviousl, rapt in the conversation.  But, she is selectively bisexual and sometimes does take a moment to appreciate other women's forms.

As we're talking, she mused in a way that said she was noticing/watching, "Damn, there are lot of really hot legs here!"  (Appreciative tone, not self conscious or like she was doing anything but observing)

So, I started to notice and figured... well, we've been close all night and she's leading the way there, so I can play along.  Besides, we had done similar in the past, earlier days of the relationship, and it almost seemed like she was reconnecting with the spirit of being able to do that sort of thing together. I returned with something like "You mean like those...?" as someone new walked by.

She turned on a dime, snapped at me for looking at other women's legs, and stormed off.  I was left like "what the f just happened?"

After a little, she actually seemed to kind of realize and let me off the hook.

In context, this was as things were coming down from a split black period during which she almost left for another man, but at that point she was still a bit torn between.  After a really nice night on our anniversary and thinking about us and our past, I believe there was probably some guilt processing and she wanted an excuse to project it on me, so she instigated a reason.