Started therapy today

[Longterm]

Hi all 

Just wanted to write down my thoughts on todays therapy.

I spent around 8 hours last night writing a condensed version of the past 4-5yrs for my therapist to read so she could get an understanding of where i am at. I found revisting the events in my mind to be deeply upsetting and emotional, i had to stop myself from breaking down several times. To go back and think about the way i have been treated was very raw. To read it back was disgusting and violating i guess, this woman has caused me so much pain, it is unbelievable. I think the fact that it is so raw is because i dont think i have processed it properly. My therapist (lets call her Mary, not real name) says i am still walking on eggshells, constantly waiting for my ex to say or do something because that is my expected norm, this is why i have not processed things because im preoccupied with the here and now.

I told Mary i feel as though i have got to the point where i have accepted i cannot help my ex, Mary disagrees...ouch...Mary said that my ex coming back has reset my clock and i will be spending a long time in therapy. I feel as though the past 3-4 weeks i have felt much better than the first month since my ex left (again), besides my extreme anger a few weekends ago i have not been too bad at all. Mary said what goes up must come down...

I was very careful when writing my story, i wanted to test Mary to see if she understood the dynamics  involved. I didnt say what i believed was the problem or use any terminology that would make Mary think i had done any homework. After reading my story Mary took a deep breath and said "you are in the right place, have you ever heard the term cluster B?" I told her yes and she said "just from reading your story i think you are dealing with a Narcissist, probable Borderline and im inclined to say a Sociopath". BPD yes, all day. A Narcassist? Im unsure but saying that, i didnt think my ex was selfish until almost 20yrs had past. The thing that got me was "Sociopath". I dont think i have done much reading on this but from my understanding, thats not good right? Isn't a Sociopath and Psychopath pretty much the same thing? I'll read up on this when i get chance. She also told me i have CPTSD, no surprise there, and are obviously trauma bonded. She told me she can help me so that was music to my ears.

She told me to read a book called "power", i forgot the author but will google it when i get chance. She said we need to shift my focus onto me. I told her i dont know how to do that and then she started asking me all sorts of weird and wonderful questions about my childhood. "Do you know you are codependant? Yes? Good, we can work on this".

She also said i should write a book? She said my writing skills and story telling are very good, she felt very engaged in my story and could feel my empathy coming through the words. She said i express my emotions very well with words and writing a book could prove to be very therapeutic and help me recover from this trauma. She suggested i go all the way back to the start and feel all the emotions and the rawness of it all and write it down. This filled me with confidence and i am seriously thinking about doing it, i think its a great idea.

I found Mary to be very blunt at times, maybe thats what i need? All in all ithought she was lovely and im looking forward to seeing her again.

LT.

[I Am Redeemed]

I'm glad you started therapy, LT and that you seem to have a good T. I think it is very important to explore the reasons why you are codependent. That's part of what I started working on as well.

From my understanding, sociopath and psychopath are terms sometimes used interchangeably to describe someone with Antisocial Personality Disorder. That disorder has a spectrum like BPD or NPD. It's a cluster b disorder as well, and since some of the behavior overlaps that may be why your T mentioned it. She's going from your brief description, so it's likely just her impression of possible issues that could be at work.

[Longterm]

Hi IAR.

Me too, i felt very low after writing all that out and expected to stay in a low mood, but talking to Mary perked me right up. A lot of it was her telling me my own symptoms and me nodding along, she knew exactly what is going on in my head.

With the codependency, she asked if i had suffered abuse as a child and i just looked at her not knowing what to say. I told her i come from a family where many suffered and tried to leave it there but she pushed me a bit saying "there was someone who mistreated you right?". This made me feel uncomfortable because i think she is going to want me to talk about "she who shall not be named" at some point, i dont know how i feel about that, i dont talk about that creature at all, i will not have her name spoken in my presence, i dont know what to do about this. she said "ok, we have our source, we will come back to this", urghhh.

This has all reminded me that i did start reading the codependency big blue book before my ex came back, im sure i made a thread about it, i must carry on reading this. The "POWER" book Mary was on about, i found it. Its called POWER: surviving and thriving after Narcissistic abuse: a collection of Essays on malignant narcissism and recovery from emotional abuse. I picked it up really cheap from the Kindle store.

Yes you are correct, its APD. I just looked into it, nobody had ever mentioned Sociopath regarding my ex before, unless i forgot (memory has been poor for well over a year). She has most traits though, it does fit as well as the BPD does in all honesty, she has traits of all 4 cluster B's, scary stuff.

Much to ponder.

LT.

[GaGrl]

It is very positive that she zeroed into Cluster B so quickly. It sounds like it could be a good fit.

 My husband also had CPTSD after his first marriage -- I can't imagine his not having been traumatized after what he went through.

[HarborBP]

After reading my story Mary took a deep breath and said "you are in the right place, have you ever heard the term cluster B?" I told her yes and she said "just from reading your story i think you are dealing with a Narcissist, probable Borderline and im inclined to say a Sociopath". BPD yes, all day. A Narcassist?

Hi Longterm,

I agree with "Mary", you express yourself very well in writing.

With respect to Narcissism, I've read books and articles from several professional experts in Cluster B disorders who believe that BPD is on the spectrum of narcissism, most placing it somewhere in the middle. In other words, BPD is a subset of NPD. Sufferers of both deal with tremendous shame and an intense lack of self esteem. Individuals suffering from either disorder crave reinforcement and intense focus from primary objects (significant others). It is how the disorder manifests that differentiates the two.

She told me to read a book called "power", i forgot the author but will google it when i get chance.

I'll have to check that out.

She said we need to shift my focus onto me. I told her i dont know how to do that and then she started asking me all sorts of weird and wonderful questions about my childhood. "Do you know you are codependant? Yes? Good, we can work on this".

One of the many books I've devoured since discovering the wonders of BPD and my attraction to it is titled Attached and the author is a Columbia research Psychiatrist by the name of Amir Levine. Dr Levine believes that co-dependency is actually a very positive personality trait that people with secure attachment styles embody in their interpersonal relationships. It all goes terribly wrong when one party in the relationship displays co-dependent feelings toward a partner who is incapable of reciprocating the same level of affirmation and devotion. Most secure individuals lose interest in an invalidating partner fairly quickly and move on. For those of us supporting each other on this site it's a different story. And therein lies the need to rethink how we feel about ourselves and our right to be treated well.

Good luck in your therapy.
HarborBP 

[Longterm]

It is very positive that she zeroed into Cluster B so quickly. It sounds like it could be a good fit.

 My husband also had CPTSD after his first marriage -- I can't imagine his not having been traumatized after what he went through.

Hi GaGrl 

Mary said, "what you wrote is abuse, that was not a relationship and you need to get to grips with that". I tried SOO hard when writing to not focus on my compassion for my ex, It would appear i did not try hard enough, she said "you need to stop making excuses for this womans behaviour and stop trying to explain the unexplainable". I was told i do this well over a year ago and thought i had got past it, or maybe i thought i got better at trying to hide it? Mary knows im full of crap, she knows my dissonance is very real. The "trauma" is very apparent to her. Did your husband recover from his CPTSD GaGrl?

LT.

[Longterm]

Hi HarborBP 

Yes, i hear you. My ex  made me the centre of her universe, she did not like me spending time with others. She constantly demanded my time. She would dislike me spending time with the kids too, i could not go anywhere without her tagging along. I just read the first few chapters of that "power" book mary suggested i read and the intense focus that is demanded (that you wrote) is mentioned, it is very true and relatable.

Yes, i agree, i think there is a lot of positives to codependency if im honest, theres nothing wrong with being nice but i really do understand what you are getting at. These traits in the wrong hands can prove to be disastrous and i feel that all of us here are very similar in many ways. Ill check out that book you mentioned, it sounds like it could be beneficial.

Thank you for your kind words and your input, its appreciated 

LT.

[gotbushels]

Longterm   

Thanks for sharing your experience. I join the others to support you on this.

I was very careful when writing my story, i wanted to test Mary to see if she understood the dynamics  involved.

I think this was a good idea. Good for you getting that positive signal you were wanting.

The "POWER" book Mary was on about, i found it. Its called POWER: surviving and thriving after Narcissistic abuse: a collection of Essays on malignant narcissism and recovery from emotional abuse.

I was shopping in the last 2 weeks and the work by Shahida Arabi (the author) was on my list. I hope you'll share some thoughts on how you feel it helps you.

"Becoming the Narcissist's Nightmare[...]" seemed to have good reviews even though the title put me off it initially—especially because deliberate and thought-over distancing with PD-traited people is one of the best go-to lessons I took from my BP experience.

I found Mary to be very blunt at times, maybe thats what i need?

Accepting that T's have their own interests—I do think a T that challenges you to think for yourself is often a good thing.


HarborBP   

Levine and Heller's I thought was a very good book—I'm glad to share your company on it. Longterm I'll vouch for it alongside the others members.

Dr Levine believes that co-dependency is actually a very positive personality trait that people with secure attachment styles embody in their interpersonal relationships.

I'm interested in where this is but couldn't find it. Will you please share where it is?


Good luck and enjoy your therapy.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Longterm, 

It sounds like you have been in a 'longterm' relationship if I'm picking up on your story right. I am new to this board so have not followed your story.

I'm really glad that you started T. I think you will find it to be very helpful, especially to validate you, challenge your thoughts, and to help you see what 'healthy' and 'normal' looks like. I thought I was in a healthy relationship, but with time I began to see how unhealthy things were between DH and I. The CPTSD is tough; I know I suffer from it too. Yesterday I met with our marriage counselor by myself, and he pointed out a few things that I had not caught before, of how the N traits have been there in almost every area yet I missed them. Those are kind of the "I-need-to-catch-my-breath" moments for me because like you, I have not processed these things. I went to bed so tired mentally because of the spots the MC poked at. It will get better as I slowly take the time and have the courage to face reality.

With the codependency, she asked if i had suffered abuse as a child and i just looked at her not knowing what to say. I told her i come from a family where many suffered and tried to leave it there but she pushed me a bit saying "there was someone who mistreated you right?". This made me feel uncomfortable because i think she is going to want me to talk about "she who shall not be named" at some point, i dont know how i feel about that, i dont talk about that creature at all, i will not have her name spoken in my presence, i dont know what to do about this. she said "ok, we have our source, we will come back to this", urghhh.

Ah, how well I remember similar questions when I started T! My T says that when I mentioned my childhood that I was obviously not interested in ever going there to talk about it. Darn it, he kept poking. I thought that my marriage was separate from my childhood. There came a day when a light bulb came on for me. Take your time. T can be intense but you will get there, one step at a time. This is a journey, not a marathon.

Anyway, I wanted to encourage you to hang in there and to keep going forward! 

Wools

[MeandThee29]

One of the many books I've devoured since discovering the wonders of BPD and my attraction to it is titled Attached and the author is a Columbia research Psychiatrist by the name of Amir Levine. Dr Levine believes that co-dependency is actually a very positive personality trait that people with secure attachment styles embody in their interpersonal relationships. It all goes terribly wrong when one party in the relationship displays co-dependent feelings toward a partner who is incapable of reciprocating the same level of affirmation and devotion. Most secure individuals lose interest in an invalidating partner fairly quickly and move on. For those of us supporting each other on this site it's a different story. And therein lies the need to rethink

I'm glad you mentioned this. I've active in a local recovery group, and it's important to tell people struggling with co-dependency that it's actually good to be attached to people, but with boundaries. They need to be redirected and supported as they learn more healthy ways of dealing with disordered and addicted people.

[MeandThee29]

Hi Longterm, 
I'm really glad that you started T. I think you will find it to be very helpful, especially to validate you, challenge your thoughts, and to help you see what 'healthy' and 'normal' looks like. I thought I was in a healthy relationship, but with time I began to see how unhealthy things were between DH and I. The CPTSD is tough; I know I suffer from it too. Yesterday I met with our marriage counselor by myself, and he pointed out a few things that I had not caught before, of how the N traits have been there in almost every area yet I missed them. Those are kind of the "I-need-to-catch-my-breath" moments for me because like you, I have not processed these things. I went to bed so tired mentally because of the spots the MC poked at. It will get better as I slowly take the time and have the courage to face reality.

And you will find it to be an unfolding process. I had sessions when I was trying to "stay well" where I cried all the way home. Part of the emotions you experience are that you are reliving the events, and so that is going to knock you down every time you do that. Of course with a therapist, you need to do that. But would watch who you tell your story to because it can drag you down.

Even recently, a comment on Facebook by a counsellor who led a retreat I went to some months ago provided some information that sent me into a weekend of crying because it opened up a wound that I had buried. I had discussed it with a life coach at one point who took me through healing prayer, but I don't think I had grasped it completely then. I needed that though.

[Longterm]

Longterm   

Thanks for sharing your experience. I join the others to support you on this.
I think this was a good idea. Good for you getting that positive signal you were wanting.
I was shopping in the last 2 weeks and the work by Shahida Arabi (the author) was on my list. I hope you'll share some thoughts on how you feel it helps you.

Good luck and enjoy your therapy.

  gotbushels and thank you.

Yes, definitely a positive signal. I love coming to this place and freely expressing my frustration, my feelings and my emotions knowing that everybody understands. Nobody thinks im crazy (feel free to correct me ) and i did not want mary to think i had just run away with my own thought processes and was just making up excuses because i wasnt "over it". She understood the dynamics completely and i cannot express how it feels to have somebody in the "real world" who understands my current predicament, it feels like a huge breath of fresh air.

I have read about 20% of the book and wow. I did read a small amount a while back on covert narcissism and it did fit but this book explains the process of abuse and i feel a book review coming on   i have looked in the library and this book is not reviewed so i think it will be good, not just for me to discuss it, but the support group as a whole. Maybe today, or maybe tomorrow i will open up the thread.

Thanks gotbushels

Hi Woolspinner2000

It sounds like you have been in a 'longterm' relationship if I'm picking up on your story right. I am new to this board so have not followed your story.

I'm really glad that you started T. I think you will find it to be very helpful, especially to validate you, challenge your thoughts, and to help you see what 'healthy' and 'normal' looks like. I thought I was in a healthy relationship, but with time I began to see how unhealthy things were between DH and I. The CPTSD is tough; I know I suffer from it too. Yesterday I met with our marriage counselor by myself, and he pointed out a few things that I had not caught before, of how the N traits have been there in almost every area yet I missed them. Those are kind of the "I-need-to-catch-my-breath" moments for me because like you, I have not processed these things. I went to bed so tired mentally because of the spots the MC poked at. It will get better as I slowly take the time and have the courage to face reality.

Yes, 20yrs. I understand your relationship was 35yrs? I read your "coming over to the other side thread" and i can empathize with you a huge amount, it is extremely hard and painful. I never commented as you were getting plenty of support, But just wanted to let you know that you have been in my thoughts of late 

I too thought i was in a healthy relationship, its crazy how many times ive heard those words, my T too also said she has heard the words many times. The N traits are being highlighted now for me too, i also went to bed mentally tired because of the days events, it is something that is very common for me and i hate not being able to just "sleep". The book that was suggested goes into these areas where you could not see it, i almost felt angry at myself for not seeing it. Facing reality is hard for us, but yes it will get better.

Thanks for the encouragement and sharing your own experience with T. I need to be prepared to be poked i guess. There is a link between childhood and marriages like this because if we never had those early experiences, we would not have been in the marriage.

LT.

[Longterm]

  MeandThee29

I'm glad you mentioned this. I've active in a local recovery group, and it's important to tell people struggling with co-dependency that it's actually good to be attached to people, but with boundaries. They need to be redirected and supported as they learn more healthy ways of dealing with disordered and addicted people.

How i wish there was a local group for me. There is one about 15 miles away, not that far right? Problem is, i work nights and cant get there on the times needed.

And you will find it to be an unfolding process. I had sessions when I was trying to "stay well" where I cried all the way home. Part of the emotions you experience are that you are reliving the events, and so that is going to knock you down every time you do that. Of course with a therapist, you need to do that. But would watch who you tell your story to because it can drag you down.

Even recently, a comment on Facebook by a counsellor who led a retreat I went to some months ago provided some information that sent me into a weekend of crying because it opened up a wound that I had buried. I had discussed it with a life coach at one point who took me through healing prayer, but I don't think I had grasped it completely then. I needed that though.

I am honestly too scared to tell my story to anybody. They would surely think im crackers. People do not understand that this is not your run of the mill breakup. When mary was reading my story, there was just an eerie silence and i was sweating, became very anxious and was knocking my leg. She stopped at one point and asked if i was ok. All i was thinking about was "is she going to tell me to man up? Grow up? Or tell me i need to go to the local mental health hospital because im ill?" It was very comforting to have the conversation we did afterwards. Mary did say this will be a long and painful process and it does fill me with dread, im not going to lie.

What you described, i can relate to. Little things can set me off to and i find myself fighting against the emotions to try and stay composed, maybe i need to ditch my ego, and let myself feel these intense emotions. I tell that to many people in my life who are having difficulties all the time.

We teach best what we need to know...

That line is starting to bite me on the ass just lately.

Thanks for your comments and encouragement.

LT.

[GaGrl]

Hi GaGrl  

Mary said, "what you wrote is abuse, that was not a relationship and you need to get to grips with that". I tried SOO hard when writing to not focus on my compassion for my ex, It would appear i did not try hard enough, she said "you need to stop making excuses for this womans behaviour and stop trying to explain the unexplainable". I was told i do this well over a year ago and thought i had got past it, or maybe i thought i got better at trying to hide it? Mary knows im full of crap, she knows my dissonance is very real. The "trauma" is very apparent to her. Did your husband recover from his CPTSD GaGrl?

LT.

Yes, he did. However, should be ever find himself in a situation in which he needed to interact with his ex in a stressful situation involving their shared adult children or grandaughter, I think he could be triggered. He, like FF and Red5, is former military -- in his case, an Army infantry officer -- and is a confident and effective leader. His ex could crack his confidence and hurt him to the core. He built a wall to keep this from happening, but it only resulted in isolating himself from women.

DH and I were friends as teens, crazy about each other at a time it didn't develop into anything more yet knowing the potential was there (I went to university and he went to SE Asia, we each married and had families). I spoke to him when his mother died, did not see him although invited -- my intuition told me it wasn't a good idea at the time, and later, he said that was when he was admitting that his marriage was over. When I reached out to ask how his life had turned out, we reconnected and were married in less than a year. He said that because of the damage in his first marriage, it might have been only me who could get through. Perhaps I reconnected him to the person he was before he married the uNPD/BPD. I certainly am no savior, but with a loving family, I did grow up with the capability for intimacy and love.

All this to say...CPTSD is going to require re-establishing the capacity to be vulnerable and to trust. That is not easy with the walls built to protect from hurt. If there is childhood trauma, that's another level to sort through in therapy.

I personally am excited about the journey you are on!I

Edited to add...DH's legal marriage was 33 years, the last 14 years living separately. We were in our 50s when we connected, and the 13 years of our marriage have been the best years of our lives. There is a rich and good life after -- I promise!

[Baglady]

Hi Longterm,

I've been lurking on the side-lines of your thread but very much emphasize with all of your emotions, thoughts, feelings, trepidation and more about entering into therapy and dealing with the feelings regarding how people in the real world or "normies" as I call them just can't wrap their head around our break-up experience with an ex BPD.  

I was in a 21 year marriage and like you and Woolspinner, I just didn't see the dysfunction for what it really was (due to dysfunctional FOO family interactions, I thought that what were really, really unhealthy relationship dynamics with my exBPDh were perfectly ok!).  I thought being co-dependent was what one did in a marriage to make it work.  

So much of my therapeutic journey (marathon  ) is about understanding what a healthy relationship is, what co-dependency is, what BPD is all about and how to rebuild my entire support structure in addition to modeling healthy behavior for my son going forward.  It's a pity my therapist doesn't have children, my treatment alone could likely pay for an entire college tuition by the time I'm through (if ever  ).

I feel, like you might I suspect, that it's all worth it if the buck stops with us and positively impacts our kids.

Warmly,
B

[Longterm]

Hi GaGrl.

I can relate to that. I struggle to interact with my ex altogether, I think it's because I know deep down her aim is to hurt me and make me suffer. I have read stories of very strong men being reduced to rubble by abusive women. I heard of a story by a guy called "tony" on another site a while back who apparently posted here on the family who was very damaged by a woman, I couldnt find his story but I'm just trying to relate that I understand what you are saying 

Yes, maybe he felt connected to you because you were there before the abuse, I find that really interesting if I'm honest. Maybe you helped him connect the dots and see where his life took a turn for the worse? You probably helped him reconnect with his "former" life.

I think moving forward, trust will be a HUGE issue for me, how can I possibly put my trust in anybody ever again? These thoughts were present immediately after she left (again). How can she say all that then 180? I know it's a pointless question, but she was just SO convincing, it has caused further trauma when really, I didnt need anymore. I'm only 35 and was told yesterday I look about 28, I was out with my daughter and was asked if she was my girlfriend . I know my life is far from over and I do get attention from the ladies but to be honest, I dont look at females the way I used to. They are nice to look at yes, but no thanks.

I am excited about my journey to but am also scared I guess, hopefully I can enjoy a more rich and good life too, your words give me hope, thank you 

LT.

[Longterm]

Baglady 

I was in a 21 year marriage and like you and Woolspinner, I just didn't see the dysfunction for what it really was (due to dysfunctional FOO family interactions, I thought that what were really, really unhealthy relationship dynamics with my exBPDh were perfectly ok!).  I thought being co-dependent was what one did in a marriage to make it work.  

I thought my marriage was awesome, I feel differently about it these days and starting to read that book last night highlighted even further abuse/dysfunction I was unaware of, the shame is overwhelming at times. I thought making a marriage work involved me doing everything she said so I was a "good" husband. Even in her world that was not good enough but it teaches me that I should of wanted more than mere scraps, I should of stuck up for myself and the kids, but I did not. I failed them and I failed myself and that hurts.

YES, the buck stops here. I am trying to (and have) provide the kids with a better, more loving and validating parental experience. We love our new place, there is no shouting, no doors slamming, non of that crap, its calm, peaceful and bloody good if I'm honest.

Dont you be lurking, it's good to talk 

LT.

[HarborBP]

Hi gotbushels,

To answer your question, Chapter 2, "Dependency Is Not a Bad Word" discusses in detail the natural and healthy inclination of human beings to seek out deep interdependent relationships with others and to take ownership of other's happiness. Some of the sub-headings in this chapter include Attachment Needs: They're Not Just for Children; The Codependency Myth followed immediately with The Biological Truth and The Dependency Paradox.

Levine and Heller go on to describe in Chapter 7 the personality profile of those among us who display secure attachment styles. These individuals "maintain high levels of relationship satisfaction, commitment and trust." (Page 132) Furthermore,
"They seek intimacy and aren't afraid of being enmeshed" and are:
"Quick to forgive."
"Treat their partners like royalty."
Feel "Responsible for their partners' well-being."
"They expect others to be responsive and loving toward them and so are responsive to others' needs."
(All Page 137)

Attached was a very important read for me, and maybe you too, because one big hurdle to overcome when healing from a borderline relationship is the deep sense of shame and embarrassment at having allowed ourselves to be played and abused while in the throes of it. I had lots of "how could you be so weak as to put up with that?" and "what did your continuing display of kindness and love toward your abuser say about you?" (answer: nothing good).

Attached helped me see there was nothing but good in how I interacted with my gf. I loved her, sacrificed for her, cared for her. That's all healthy. Unfortunately, unlike the secure attachment type, it took me far too long to realize the devaluation and abuse would never end and, thus, stepping away was the only option.

This is where my dysfunction took over. Heck, even to this day there is a sensation in me that yearns for her. It probably isn't even about her. More likely it's about something buried deep that happened long ago. Either that or a surface manifestation of my genotype. Whatever the source its kind of like hauling around this subtle, back-of-my-mind ball and chain. It's with me all the time, like a mantra that whispers "someone please come and nurture me".

HarborBP   

[HarborBP]

Longterm, apologies for hogging your thread but you opened a dialogue that is drawing a lot of folks into good conversation.

I'm glad you mentioned this. I've active in a local recovery group, and it's important to tell people struggling with co-dependency that it's actually good to be attached to people, but with boundaries. They need to be redirected and supported as they learn more healthy ways of dealing with disordered and addicted people.

MeandThee29,

It is very important to affirm to people there was nothing wrong with their intentions to help the dysfunctional partner. However, as you wrote, it is critical to learn how to establish and maintain boundaries, especially those dealing with self respect and the expectation to be treated as well as we treat others. Lacking boundaries opens the door to much misery and despair for the caring soul enmeshed in a relationship with an addict or borderline. 

HarborBP

[Longterm]

Longterm, apologies for hogging your thread but you opened a dialogue that is drawing a lot of folks into good conversation.

HarborBP

No need to apologise, I love a good chinwag 

The shame and embarrassment is debilitating isn't it. My friend snapped a me a good while back and said "do you know why shes treated you like crap? Because you have let her, that's why". He apologised afterwards but he was bang on the money. Our dysfunction did take over at some point and took us down a very dark path, seeking validation that would never come, that we were unable to find. A very painful truth in my opinion, the after effects damaging and very deep to our core. I still, to this day struggle to understand how one human being could treat another in such a cruel and disgusting way. The answer ultimately lies within us as we were the ones that allowed it to happen and theres no getting away from that, whether its accepted or not. That's where the shame comes from.

That book is definitely on my list.

LT.

[gizmo7247]

Hi Longterm,

First I just wanted to thank you for sharing this all. I can't begin to convey how much it helped me when reading it, knowing that someone else was feeling exactly what I was feeling. I think that's been the hardest part for me - it feels so isolating going through so many of these aftermath emotions because my friends and family can't comprehend, and just want me to "get over it." It's not their fault, they couldn't possibly fathom what I went through (or continue to), but it still makes me feel incredibly alone and isolated, and like there's something wrong with me that I haven't gotten over it. So I just wanted to commend you for sharing, and return the favor a bit...

I was "lucky" because during half of the relationship (2 years) I was going to a T in my old city. My ex-BPD even asked to go see my therapist with me - I think she was trying to work through some of her inner conflict, but when she did it came out absolutely crazy. Lies, projection, distortion. Even back then my T at the time was trying to get me away from her, giving me subtle warnings about her. It wasn't until the final devaluation in January, and I went back to him, that he told me what he'd known all along - she was a Borderline. At least that gave me validation - because at that point I really thought I was the crazy one, and that I was the abuser, and that everything she was saying, and the way she'd treated me, was my fault. If there was any luck in any of this, it's that my old T got a front-row seat to the dysfunction and was able to validate me in the end. I don't know what I would have done if my old T hadn't been there to confirm to me the truth.

I'm now in NYC, and found a new T here. I've seen her 4 or 5 times so far, and I SOO relate to what you said. It's been 7 months, so I thought when I told her what I was feeling and going through she was going to tell me I needed to get over it, or something to that effect. She didn't. She told me it's going to take a lot of time, and Borderline aside - I had been through an incredibly abusive relationship, and that's going to take a lot of time to heal from.

True to what you said, she also has poked at my childhood and believes I was invalidated emotionally as a child - which is why I was so "comfortable" being invalidated for 4.5 years with my ex-BPD. She says I'm showing signs of trauma, although she hasn't said the CPTSD word yet.

I also relate to you on the compassion part. Last week was a hard session - she asked me, "If your ex was here what would you say to her?" I froze, choked up, and started stammering about how bad I felt for how much pain I know she's in. (It really is insane isn't it?) Then she stopped me, and got very blunt with me, and said - tell me what you really WANT to say to her.

I broke down crying and just kept saying over and over again, "How could you do this to me? No matter what ever happened, I always had your back, I always put you first, I always went out of my way to support you and to help you. How could you do this to me?"

Maybe it was a mini break-through or something, I don't know. It's the first time I've ever been outwardly honest about the anger and betrayal I feel inside. That was Wednesday, but it's still with me, I still feel "off" a bit.

During the session I even went so far as to say my ex was evil, and I froze when I said it, expecting the T to judge me - but she didn't, she just nodded her head in agreement. I feel like you - how could any human being treat another human being the way she did me? Particularly someone who knew my depression so well? It's the part I have such a hard time with. Because I've suffered from depression so deeply my whole life, I would NEVER want to cause that pain to another - my internal pain has made me more prone to help others, to assuage theirs'. To know that my ex-BPD uses her internal pain as an excuse to do what she does to others is repugnant to me.

Maybe that's why we revert to compassion and understanding with our ex-BPDs. My T has asked me several times why I always find the good in people, and choose to see that. Maybe because I don't want to believe the alternative. Then I feel stupid and ashamed of course, because I find myself making excuses for her even now, even after everything she's done to me - just like I did the whole time.

Anyways, sorry if I rambled. I just wanted to genuinely say thank you - I needed to read what you wrote today, and am going through similar work and findings with my T. I'm so grateful for this message board, and everyone who shares and relates here - though I wish it wasn't necessary in the first place.

[Longterm]

  gizmo7247

  First I just wanted to thank you for sharing this all. I can't begin to convey how much it helped me when reading it, knowing that someone else was feeling exactly what I was feeling. I think that's been the hardest part for me - it feels so isolating going through so many of these aftermath emotions because my friends and family can't comprehend, and just want me to "get over it." It's not their fault, they couldn't possibly fathom what I went through (or continue to), but it still makes me feel incredibly alone and isolated, and like there's something wrong with me that I haven't gotten over it. So I just wanted to commend you for sharing, and return the favor a bit...

I'm glad it helped you. You are not alone in your feelings no, the aftermath of these relationships is truly soul destroying and life changing. It is isolating yes, most people simply do not understand what you are going through on a day to day basis, it is crippling and debilitating.

  I really thought I was the crazy one, and that I was the abuser, and that everything she was saying, and the way she'd treated me, was my fault.

I can relate, it's horrible isn't it, to question ones own reality is very confusing and disorientating. I point blank asked my T to promise to tell me if she ever got to the point that she thought there was something wrong with me, crazy right?

True to what you said, she also has poked at my childhood and believes I was invalidated emotionally as a child - which is why I was so "comfortable" being invalidated for 4.5 years with my ex-BPD. She says I'm showing signs of trauma, although she hasn't said the CPTSD word yet.  

There is a link isn't there? I've been thinking today that I may have to accept that I need to start opening up more about my childhood. Really painful stuff that I've worked so hard at pushing away appears to be haunting me. I'm not going to waffle on but I suffered several forms of abuse that set me up perfectly to be abused again in my adult life.

I also relate to you on the compassion part. Last week was a hard session - she asked me, "If your ex was here what would you say to her?" I froze, choked up, and started stammering about how bad I felt for how much pain I know she's in. (It really is insane isn't it?) Then she stopped me, and got very blunt with me, and said - tell me what you really WANT to say to her.  

I did exactly the same thing. My T could see the compassion in my words even though I tried to hide it. When questioned I also spoke about the pain my ex is in, and how sorry for her I feel. It's not insane gizmo, it means you are in touch with your humanity. I think the ability to show compassion after being treated so poorly is a beautiful thing, its helps us to not take it personally.

Maybe it was a mini break-through or something, I don't know. It's the first time I've ever been outwardly honest about the anger and betrayal I feel inside. That was Wednesday, but it's still with me, I still feel "off" a bit. 

Yes, we do feel hugely betrayed afterwards, worthless even. I have often asked myself "why do I not matter to her?" The emotion will pass, try not to get downhearted about it, I know that's difficult

  how could any human being treat another human being the way she did me? Particularly someone who knew my depression so well

My ex recently came back 4mths ago, she left again after 2 months but a week into her "return" my brother commited suicide. BPD is about survival, they will do what they need to do regardless of the effect it has on those around them, it really does tie into our confusion and the state we are in once we are dropped on our heads, it is shocking and it is brutal. It really has very little to do with you, again, try not to take it personally.

  Anyways, sorry if I rambled. I just wanted to genuinely say thank you - I needed to read what you wrote today, and am going through similar work and findings with my T. I'm so grateful for this message board, and everyone who shares and relates here - though I wish it wasn't necessary in the first place.

You ramble away gizmo, its good to get it all off your chest 

[I Am Redeemed]

There is a link isn't there? I've been thinking today that I may have to accept that I need to start opening up more about my childhood. Really painful stuff that I've worked so hard at pushing away appears to be haunting me. I'm not going to waffle on but I suffered several forms of abuse that set me up perfectly to be abused again in my adult life.

There's a very wise board parrot around here that told me that "all roads lead to PSI (Parent, Sibling, Inlaw board)."

Yes, Longterm, it is haunting you, because you cannot run from it and expect to heal. You can't heal your past with the present or the future. You can only heal your past by facing it and processing it. Then you can truly move forward. The same concept applies to your marriage as well as your past family relationships.

If you were to push away all the damage that you incurred from your marriage instead of going to therapy and processing it, you would carry those wounds with you and they would affect all future relationships, including even the relationships you have with your children. It is the same with your childhood. Your marriage was likely a way to escape your past, but you unknowingly stepped into a scenario where you repeated some of the dynamics you experienced in childhood.

It can be scary to face the painful emotions and memories of our past unresolved traumas. But- once you do, you relieve them of the power to keep hurting you.

It will absolutely take some time, and a skilled therapist will know how to prepare you and support you as you peel back the layers one by one. It is so very important to do the work, though, because as you do, you arm yourself with better skills. You discover the root of behaviors or thought patterns that do not serve your mental and emotional well being, and you learn how to replace them with behaviors or thought patterns that do.

I would also suggest to you to be gentle with yourself. Thirty-five years old, a twenty-year relationship- you were what, fifteen when you met your wife? That is young. You were young and likely no one had taught you the concepts of boundaries and self-advocacy that prevent healthier people from accepting abuse or mistreatment. You didn't know what you didn't know, and now you have a chance to learn.

You're also not alone by any means. As you can see from the stories on these boards, many of us have flung whatever shreds of self-respect we may have had to the ground in an effort to save a person who would not be saved. Some of us have made decisions that greatly impacted other people, including our children. But the shame will keep you stuck. Guilt says "I did something that was wrong or bad." Shame says "I AM wrong or bad." Learning to separate the mistakes you made from the core or essence of your "self" will help you move forward.

[gizmo7247]

My ex recently came back 4mths ago, she left again after 2 months but a week into her "return" my brother commited suicide. BPD is about survival, they will do what they need to do regardless of the effect it has on those around them, it really does tie into our confusion and the state we are in once we are dropped on our heads, it is shocking and it is brutal. It really has very little to do with you, again, try not to take it personally.

I'm so sorry to hear about your brother. I've battled depression my whole life, and I think because of that most people find it easy to open up and "lean" on me. I've, unfortunately, had some experience with suicide myself because of that. My heart truly goes out to you.

To your survival point and not taking it personally, I get that logically, I think I still struggle with it on an emotional level though. My ex "came back" about a month or so ago, though not in the same way as yours'. Mine hired a lawyer and wanted them to sue me over some crazy allegations. This was after months of NC. I get what you're saying, and realize it was her survival need kicking in - and the need for her to be the victim, and most likely to cover up the shame of what she'd done. Luckily the lawyer called me first, talked to me for a bit, and admitted to me that his client had "some obvious issues."

The weird thing about it for me was my initial reaction wasn't disdain or anger, it was deep sorrow that someone I loved so much would think I was some type of monster. It's all so surreal. The most frustrating part in it all is continuing to feel bad for her, even when she's overtly trying to hurt me.

There is a link isn't there? I've been thinking today that I may have to accept that I need to start opening up more about my childhood. Really painful stuff that I've worked so hard at pushing away appears to be haunting me. I'm not going to waffle on but I suffered several forms of abuse that set me up perfectly to be abused again in my adult life.

I'm in the same place - my T keeps trying to get there, and I keep pushing it away. Invalidated feelings as a kid don't seem "unsafe" to me, but there are other things that I have a hard time calling "abuse," but recognize they may be. It's hard for me to talk about it because it feels like I'm judging, or being harsh, to my parents.

And just as I type that I realize I'm doing the same thing there - worrying about the feelings of others, instead of the emotions and feelings I went through at the time. (Doh) Geez, I guess I really am a mess.

Without getting into details - it's how I grew up. Whenever I felt bad, or was hurt, and expressed it - it made others feel guilty, and then I felt guilty, and to blame, for making them feel guilty. Which is EXACTLY what my exBPD always did to me.

I'd suffered depression and anger issues throughout most of my life, and ironically it was my exBPD who convinced me to go to therapy the first time. I stayed in therapy for two years - and he really helped me cope and work through the depression, and the anger that stemmed from it. Ironically, it was when I got better that my exBPD started getting worse. When I stopped reacting in anger to her drama and outbursts, it's when her drunken rages became more frequent and more intense.

After a year of frequent outbursts she asked if she could talk to me with my therapist. I agreed. And she came in crying about how "guilty" she felt about the ways she'd been treating me, that I'd made a 180, and she thought she resented me for the ways I'd behaved in the beginning (at this point, things that had happened 2 years prior.) I listened to it all, didn't give my side or debate with her narrative - I literally just listened. And when she was done my therapist turned to me and asked me how I felt hearing it. I told her I felt horrible I'd ever made her feel that way, and I couldn't imagine what she must have been going through at that time or how I'd made her feel. My therapist asked her what she thought from my response, and she said "shocked. I thought he'd get angry at me, not understand and listen."

Sorry, I'm rambling again. But I remember after that session, that was the most hopeful I ever was through the whole relationship that we were going to make it. Then it quickly started to crash and burn again. She said that session she wanted to work through it, and just needed space to get over her resentment. Two days later she's trying to get me to go to her parents beach house with her for memorial day. I said no, that I was respecting her request for space. She goes into our next session together and tells my therapist I'm not giving her space. Same thing happened the next two sessions, and that led to our second breakup.

Looking back at that whole ordeal - it was again invalidated feelings. I remember being frustrated because throughout it all - we kept talking about why she was lashing out in anger at me, about how guilty she felt, about all her resentment. She never inquired about how I felt on the receiving end of the lashing out. In my gut it felt off and wrong, but I kept trying to give her space to talk through her feelings. She called me a couple days before our last therapy session together, and promised that we could talk about my feelings next time in therapy. But the minute we got into my T's office, she started attacking me again for not giving her space.

Invalidated feelings - again. I should have run and never looked back, but I went back in for another year and a half only to be finally dropped in January.

Moral of the (long) story I just told - I'm with you. It's becoming very clear to me that I need to work with my new T on the childhood stuff. She's already picked up on the invalidated feelings, so I guess it's time to have the uncomfortable conversations I've been avoiding.

[Longterm]

Hi IAR.

Your words deeply effected me last night. I could not sleep and was literally curled up in a ball in bed wanting the ground to swallow me up, if I had had a box, I would of sat in it and closed the lid. I did similar things as a child, I remember numerous occasions where I would wake in the night terrified and I would go sit in the bathroom with a duvet covering me until I calmed down. I remember 2 occasions that I felt like I just snapped out of it and felt like I had just woke up not realising why I was where I was, or how I got there. I have not told anybody that before, nobody. I was thinking that if i did talk to Mary about my childhood, would she allow me to hide behind a curtain or under a desk so she wouldn't be looking at me whilst I discussed these things? Would she let me wear a mask or put something over my head so she couldnt see me? That just sounds pathetic right? I think it highlights how difficult it is.

There's a very wise board parrot around here that told me that "all roads lead to PSI (Parent, Sibling, Inlaw board)."

You are not the first to tell me that.

Thank you for opening my mind to the possibility of discussing these things 

LT.

[Longterm]

Hi gizmo.

  I'm so sorry to hear about your brother. I've battled depression my whole life, and I think because of that most people find it easy to open up and "lean" on me. I've, unfortunately, had some experience with suicide myself because of that. My heart truly goes out to you. 

To your survival point and not taking it personally, I get that logically, I think I still struggle with it on an emotional level though. My ex "came back" about a month or so ago, though not in the same way as yours'. Mine hired a lawyer and wanted them to sue me over some crazy allegations. This was after months of NC. I get what you're saying, and realize it was her survival need kicking in - and the need for her to be the victim, and most likely to cover up the shame of what she'd done. Luckily the lawyer called me first, talked to me for a bit, and admitted to me that his client had "some obvious issues." 

The weird thing about it for me was my initial reaction wasn't disdain or anger, it was deep sorrow that someone I loved so much would think I was some type of monster. It's all so surreal. The most frustrating part in it all is continuing to feel bad for her, even when she's overtly trying to hurt me. 

Thank you for your kind words   it does hurt doesnt it, you begin to question yourself and start to believe that you are a terrible person. I still struggle with many things and this is one of them. "Am I really that much of a b*****?, does everybody see it except for me?, does she really believe this?" Its imperative to try and drag yourself back and avoid going down these paths but when your self esteem is in the gutter its incredibly difficult to not have these thought processes. The added suffering they put you through after just adds to it and makes you feel like you deserve it, for lack of a better word, its insidious and destructive to an already traumatised soul.

 there are other things that I have a hard time calling "abuse," but recognize they may be. 

I was reading the book Mary suggested last night (I cant put it down) and it details many forms of abuse that I had never even thought of. The shame gripped me immensely when I began to uncover truths that had previously never entered my mind. There was a reason Mary told me to read it.

When I stopped reacting in anger to her drama and outbursts, it's when her drunken rages became more frequent and more intense. 
 

This sounds like "extinction bursts" to me, have you ever heard of it? I read about it a few weeks back and I found it interesting. I never had extinction bursts with my ex because I was a doormat, saying that, was her return a burst? How dare I get on with my life kind of thing.

Sorry, I'm rambling again. But I remember after that session, that was the most hopeful I ever was through the whole relationship that we were going to make it. Then it quickly started to crash and burn again. She said that session she wanted to work through it, and just needed space to get over her resentment. Two days later she's trying to get me to go to her parents beach house with her for memorial day. I said no, that I was respecting her request for space. She goes into our next session together and tells my therapist I'm not giving her space. Same thing happened the next two sessions, and that led to our second breakup.  

You ramble away, I'm enjoying this thread. I have read many stories of couples counselling with a BPD and how they use it to make you look like the abuser, the difficult one. They can manipulate therapists and place themselves in the victim role, we all know how good they are at this, it is frustrating and causes further dissonance.

  She never inquired about how I felt on the receiving end of the lashing out. In my gut it felt off and wrong
 

Moving forward I plan on trying to listen to my gut more, if something feels off, it usually is. She never inquired because deep down it was not about you.

  Moral of the (long) story I just told - I'm with you. It's becoming very clear to me that I need to work with my new T on the childhood stuff. She's already picked up on the invalidated feelings, so I guess it's time to have the uncomfortable conversations I've been avoiding. 

Thank you gizmo, you are very bright and self aware, you should give yourself a lot of credit.

LT.

[HarborBP]

LT,

just ordered Power. It'll be here Wednesday. How are you finding the read?

Cheers,
HarborBP

[clvrnn]

Hello there, Longterm,

Just been reading through your comments here. How liberating it must feel to have found a therapist who truly understands everything you went through + what you are feeling. This is such a good step in your healing, how do feel overall, now? Do you feel as if there is 'hope' for you to truly recover and put this behind you (not totally behind you, as IMO I think these experiences are a part of us for a long time).

Clvrnn 

[I Am Redeemed]

I remember numerous occasions where I would wake in the night terrified and I would go sit in the bathroom with a duvet covering me until I calmed down. I remember 2 occasions that I felt like I just snapped out of it and felt like I had just woke up not realising why I was where I was, or how I got there.

That sounds like dissociation. You may have not had any other way to cope with the stress and anxiety you were experiencing.

I have not told anybody that before, nobody. I was thinking that if i did talk to Mary about my childhood, would she allow me to hide behind a curtain or under a desk so she wouldn't be looking at me whilst I discussed these things? Would she let me wear a mask or put something over my head so she couldnt see me? That just sounds pathetic right? I think it highlights how difficult it is.

It's not pathetic, LT. It sounds like a natural response to something that deeply affected you as a child, at a vulnerable time in your life when you needed a safe and secure environment to grow and develop a healthy self.

I think if you express these concerns to "Mary", she would most likely understand and not be surprised at all.

[Longterm]

Hello there, Longterm,

how do feel overall, now? Do you feel as if there is 'hope' for you to truly recover and put this behind you (not totally behind you, as IMO I think these experiences are a part of us for a long time).

Hi clvrnn.

If I'm honest, I would say not good.

What started off as excitement at finding a T that understands what's going on in my head, this thread would appear to have gotten me into a very anxious and panicked state. I feel like a cornered rat, the shame I feel right now is something I would say I cannot remember ever feeling. I feel utterly worthless and disgusted at myself for having wrote what I did in the last paragraph. I have just been out to try and shake this feeling and ended up sitting and crying for about 2hrs. I have been thinking about how I felt as a child and the things that happened, the horrible things that were said and done to me, the experiences, the emotions and the fear. I feel like I need to get away from myself, I cannot look at myself, I do not like myself. I am reliving memories, very deep memories I thought had been buried, memories involving me being told I was nothing and was never going to be anything. I feel like I was just there watching things happen around me, I did not matter, I was just there. I can picture myself sitting in the bathroom, I am remembering what my bedroom looked like, the kitchen, very real to me right now. I feel as though I have opened up a door that I had shut. It feels very surreal and shameful, I dont think I can truly describe how I feel right now, I have not thought about my ex for around 4hrs, it's like she just doesnt matter right now?

I'm unsure if I can put it all behind me, I really just do not know, I know I can get to a better place because I have already done it once, I'm guessing that's hope enough.

Hi HarborBP.

just ordered Power. It'll be here Wednesday. How are you finding the read? 
 

I'm finding it very good but also very painful and shameful, I dont want to say too much because as stated, I will be starting a thread, but I did watch several videos after my ex left (again) and did think her recycle was textbook Narcissism. The book has pretty much confirmed it for me but it also details various narcissistic abuse patterns that I was unaware of, it is very eye opening for me in particular.

Hi IAR.

I think if you express these concerns to "Mary", she would most likely understand and not be surprised at all. 

I think I will struggle to do that to somebody face, I cringe at the thought of it.

LT.