What would you answer to this?

[Dave89]

It has been 9 days since my pwBPD wife went to our friends place. Before she left, I felt we where in such a bad relationships again, she had her anger on me all the time. I was still trying to help her, but that was my codependent side which didn't do any good to either of us. Inside I felt I cannot love her at that moment, and even though normally I'm highly sexual person, I didn't have any attraction to her. I could only love her and hug her when she was sleeping... Daytime was a different story. Then one night she had her rage outburst and wanted to destroy things in our house, starter throwing things, I wanted to calm her down (not the best idea - I should have just walked away), but she started hitting me and I restrained her for which I felt and still feel bad. Generally I took way too much responsibility, I wanted to control so that she wouldn't get into that much trouble, like in the past. Now I am reading "Codependent no more" and I can recognise myself a lot. I have low self esteem and I think that is central part for me why I feel even hard to do simplest thing for me, when I am together with her. I am constantly thinking about her needs and to get her fixed somehow so that she stop harming herself.

Two days after our incident she just started doing things behind my back with bank and didn't pick up the phone when I was calling her. When I met her, I told her (I was feeling like a victim since non of my care-taking and rescuing worked) that we maybe need to live separate for a while. I have never told to her that in our 8 year marriage, but she has gone to live separate numerous times. First and foremost I felt that we need to cool-down because we cannot have any normal functioning relationships where she hates me from 8 am til 10 pm for more than a month and screams at me constantly. After this talk I was delighted, because she said she doesn't want to feel like my child anymore. She want to make her own decisions. Even though before I know she had done so many bad things she regrets, so I understand why I had this tendency to safeguard her in a way, but it was a BAD dance we had.

So last Sunday (4 days since she was living with our friends) she wrote me "I want to arrange divorce tomorrow. Would you call the institution and arrange the date for it?" I didn't respond, so two hours later she wrote that she will have to use police otherwise. I didn't know what to answer, I felt like I would not accept threats like that, so I decided to ignore the messages altogether. Next day we had some casual exchange of messages. She was trying to find apartment and I asked about DBT therapy, is there any chances of her getting into one soon, and her appointments to psychiatric doctors.

Monday and Tuesday she wrote me few things in regards to trivial matters. Last message I sent her was Tuesday and that never showed as "delivered" (we both have iPhone) and still isn't. I though she might blocked me (never did that before), but she also changed her phone provider, so I don't know if that affected it.

So today she wrote me again: "We need to settle with divorce on Monday, I have found an apartment". I don't know what to respond. I had written her week ago that I support the idea that we could live separate and then decide how we want to proceed after we had got things better in our life's.

My vision is to let her make her own decisions and face consequences and to first time learn how it is to live on her own, without me and her parents (she is 26 now). I am also hopeful that she would enrol in DBT therapy in upcoming months. While I need to work addressing my codependency with my therapist and on my own as well so that I would learn new ways of coping with her disease and start to take care about myself and further - also set boundaries. I don't want to give her up, but I also want that we both could feel as good as possible in our relationships and that they would be much more healthier over time. I want her to take time and not to rush, but she wants to divorce right now, even though she had done it already once and had regretted - so we needed to be re-married again. That took only few months after she realised it.

I would be very appreciate of your input.   What do you think would be appropriate answer I can give to her, that would make things more understandable for her from my perspective, given that she is in her "devaluation" state right now. And I understand she wants to go "all out", just like many previous times.

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[Dave89]

I think I have come to know the painful reality - we cannot be together, never. I was just so fool for these 8 years I always forgive her actions, but she punished me for my mistakes so hard. Today letter I had in my postbox put the end of this relationships, that was my final straw. I cannot afford to lose my sanity because of an insane partner.

Today I had a car accident as well. In morning I made legal separation request on September, but I suspect she will go chasing me trough police if she hasn't yet done it, because I restrained her when she was aggresive. Last case she put against me ended in nothing since they didn't find any proof. I don't know how this would go, if it will, but one thing is plain - I have lost everything. My faith, friends and now my wife. In 8 days I'm gonna be 30, but I feel like a am a total failure. I was so lost 8 years ago when I found her, in my addictions, with 0 self esteem from my abusive family, today I much more know who I am, I am much better man, but I feel so low. I wanted to save her, I had this illusion and many said that I am doing so good helping her, with vitamins, doctors, food, always making sure we have enough money, utc. But this was a path to my disaster. I feel devastated. I want to divorce her, but I don't know where she stands. Well, I can't prevent her from doing this to me, but she will face consequences by herself sooner or later. She is hurting herself in this way. It's just beyond word sad. We have been the only ones (sexually) to each other. So I really felt this is the best as it gets, just one chance, make it right, with right person, you stick with the one, even when hell comes. You survive. But now I see that I almost was ready to die myself from how bad I felt her disease has affected me. I simply cannot be un-affected by what she was doing. Day after day. I cry now as I write this, but this is beyond tears. I'm sorry to get emotional, but I have oppresed myself for nearly all my life. I just want to get it out. Even if no one listens.

[Ozzie101]

I'm so sorry, Dave. It sounds like you have a lot going on and I know it's incredibly difficult. We've all been through difficult times and it can be so hard to hold onto your sanity and sense of self-worth. Be kind to yourself.

You say a letter today was the final straw. What was in the letter that broke the camel's back, as it were?

[Dave89]

That was a bill from the hospital, she went there to see if they can identify some attack I had done on her and probably use it to force police investigation and for that she could fast track divorce. She had done it already last time, like I said, that ended in nothing, the case was dropped, because of lack of any evidence. I live in country where domestic violence is very serious offense, so if prosecutors could find even slightest evidence, the would go on pressing charges. I didn't know why I accepted her back last summer after that episode, she begged to come back and said she understand the harm she caused and that, of course, there was no incident, she just wanted to justify her emotions. It was one good month, but then she said she needs to go away and escape again, even though we had a wonderful month together. The cycle went on. All this time she was living with intense shame because I never had attacked her, never raised my hand to her in our 8 years and she knows that. All I did at some very rare occasions was restrain her when she got so extremely violent. But that doesn't help, just makes matters worse for me. And since last year she has learned the judical system now, to get me in trouble. As much as it hurts, I have to let her go. Even if she will beg me in future and threaten to make suicide if I don't accept her back later, I will need to call police. It hurts as hell since I wanted to help her so much, but she treat me worse than a insect. I cannot save her. Nobody can. This is the hard reality. I have just a choise to either to stop this relationships alltogether or loose my sanity very soon. She may very well even kill me one day if I stay in this relationships, I had seen her close to taking a knife. That is how much anger she can have. Last two months was very intense of violent outbursts directed towards me. I even lost any interest in sex or anything else. I felt trapped. And there was nothing I can do to make it better. What made it even worse, we were spending our days together. I was having time off work, she was on sick leave and apartment we have is 1 room studio, so nowhere to hide. So it all reached the point of no return. She will now have a phase of pretending to be a victim from my violence, get all people around her, including my friends, to believe her. To damage my reputation. This has happened all 8 years of our marriage. But everything intensified, even more, when we lost her mother due to ovarian cancer (I though did make a peaceful and loving relationship with her mother in the last year and I am very happy for that), though we did all we can that she could go to rest with least minimum pain. But that unlocked her BPD symptoms so strong, that I was in survival mode all the time for the last two years. Constant problems with her, I took her to the emergency hospital a few times, because she didn't eat for months. I made her take Omega-3 healthy acids, that literally reversed her back to life. Now she doesn't work out anymore and I think she is going totally crazy. That is why I can expect everything in the upcoming months.

[Ozzie101]

I can understand why that would be a last straw.

If you look around at other threads, you'll find that there are other members whose loved ones have (falsely) accused them of domestic violence, so you're not alone there. There are things you can do to legally protect yourself but I'll let fellow members who have more experience there help you with that. I'd hate to give you bad info.

You say she's turning friends against you. Are there any who are aware of the truth and who you can turn to? Having a good support system can really be a life-saver.

[Dave89]

You see, for fifteen years I was Jehovah's Witness (JW). So we are making only friends inside our community and that's a small community. And then everyone knows everything, even if it's a lie. But a few months ago I decided I don't want to be an active member anymore since I found out that they're not the one they claimed to be. I cannot tell anyone of my doubts, then I would be disfellowshipped for apostasy and nobody would be allowed to talk with me. Sorry to give you this much information, that is just strongly related.

And answering the question - yes, there are quite a few whom she had told the truth, that I wasn't hitting her or taking money. She now lived for 2 weeks at my very good friends (JW) house. He knows me very very well. And he knows our past. I don't know how much influenced he is though, I hadn't had contact with him. You see, my stand to not accept this religion as the only truth puts me in even harder position, because they all will say - haha you didn't go to meetings and now you have problems - see and on top of that, I cannot talk with them any spiritual question, since I now disagree with many things and I could face disfellowshipping. So I kind of lost all my friends in a few days (in a symbolic way), when I discovered the other truth about our truth, I never imagined it would be possible to find serious issues with my religion. My wife joined me and said that JW done her very much harm since she was grown up as one of them. But you see, she's now with them again and she is easily influenced by others. They can have some counter-attack towards me. They already had committee meeting with me when my wife went to complain about me last year, later though they understand that they made a huge mistake for setting public announcement of reproof when my wife came forward and told the truth. To be honest, I even don't think they really were capable of processing this information. It was more convenient to stick with me being violent, even though the new congregation we were in later made their own investigation and said the old congregation elders made a mistake, but they cannot undo it. I was shocked that they even never apologized. But we are said that the higher position you are the more humble you should be. So that was my first serious doubts, that I needed to be completely sure that I am in the right place, so I started to research more... and that led me to awake from the fairytale I was living.

So to sum up - I have no real friends as of now, they all will accept me only if I will continue in religious practices, otherwise, they stay away from me like a diseased person. So I was forced to start looking for new friendships - I have one co-worker that I can trust and I am also in contact with my wife's aunt. She is a very reasonable person. She was never against me in any aggressive way. She also was extremely shocked when my wife went to police last summer, she thought it was way too much she did.

[Ozzie101]

I'm so sorry. I have no experience with JW so I can't really relate there, but it sounds like a very difficult position and situation for you -- one that can really turn a world upside down.

I'm glad you have your coworker and your wife's aunt to turn to. Do you have any hobbies or interests? Pursuing those can not only help you on an emotional level, it's also a good way to meet like-minded people and develop new relationships.

[Dave89]

Ozzie101,

Thank you for you compassionate words. It is indeed hard to understand my situation with JW. Most of them are very good people that live by high moral standarts, in fact can be one of the best people in the world, but the structure is cult-like, that means you can’t leave un-punished, similar to scientology church. You devote all you have. And don’t even dare to question serious doubts. Paradox is that you can even have doubts whether God exists, that would be considered minor, but if you seriously doubt about that main leaders (Governing body) is really the only channel God uses to guide people on earth, you can count your days, unless you change your mind.

Yes I’m also glad that I have at least someone to call and vent my emotions, although they are quite busy with their own lives and I don’t want to bother too much. I go to Gym almost everyday for the last 10 days, I like Wim Hof (ice-man) method of breathing and cold exposure. I have joined groups in facebook. Sauna and cold tub + showers always help me to regain at least some control over my scattered mind. Wim Hof actually started experimenting with cold after his wife who was mentally ill comitted suicide - so was also in heavy emotional pain. And the physical stress of extreme cold makes everything look easier, at least for a while. So I hope also to get in touch with local group in my country. I also was thinking to join some groups that run together outside. Also considered checking out the al-anon group. And this message board helps a lot to write down my feelings and know that practicly everyone of us here are struggling with extreme pain and confusion. This is not me alone. But for most normal people, they wouldn’t understand what we are going trough.

[Ozzie101]

This board really is a life-saver. You're right. It's so hard for others to really understand what it's like being in a BPD relationship, no matter how compassionate and supportive they are, they can't fully "get it."

Good for you in exploring those hobbies and activities.  Keep it up! And I hope you'll also keep posting and keeping us updated. And ask questions and help others in turn. Explore the tips and tools we have here. There's a lot that's helpful if you dig around! Have you done much of that?

[Dave89]

I have a red many stories, at some I felt that I can contribute, but I feel kind of low so that I had let my relationships to this hell without making intervention earlier, so how can I be such a hypocrite and give advise to anyone other.

My wife had 8-9/9 bpd symptoms plus bi-polar. So it was so clear for me without doubt that this cannot be coincidence, it took some two months to get it diagnosed with doctor, who works at pshyc yard in many teams and she said she sees so many like my wife, but was so surprised that my wife had so deep knowleage of her condition. What she didn’t know was how much material I give my wife to read, I also ordered DBT workbook which she red. And then I made sure she start to eat everyday. And good high quality food. So it’s sad that in the end, I reached my own limits and understand that I can make her better only for a while, but sooner or later she will start her destruction cycle again. And there will be nothing good that I do. I don’t see anymore how it can ever work out, unfortunately.

[Ozzie101]

I, and many others here, can understand that sense of futility -- of feeling like there's nothing that can be done.

You can't "fix" your wife. In order for her to get better, she has to want it and commit to it 100%. You can't do that for her.

That said, some of the tools we share here -- like listening with empathy, validating, ending conflict -- can go a long way to making a situation more bearable. And they have the added benefit of being useful in other relationships as well. Having good communication tools can make you stronger, regardless of what happens with your wife.

And I know what you mean about feeling hesitant to contribute. But you're not alone. There are people here who lived with BPD for decades before figuring it out. It's a misunderstood, often unknown problem. I think anyone can be forgiven for not seeing it. In my case, I figured it out relatively quickly, but for months, I was convinced I had messed up my marriage and I was a horrible wife, not realizing my H could have a personality disorder.

As you read here, you'll find other people's stories may sound familiar or may spark some empathy in you. You don't have to give advice if you don't feel comfortable with that. But sometimes just reaching out and saying "I understand" or "I've been there" or some other supportive statement can mean the world to someone.

[Dave89]

Yes, exactly, in my case (and as dr. Ross Rosenberg says) we had a very intense and quick start of relationships (she proposed me since I wasn't that fast to react), we fell in love in first sight, mutually. Because of this huge emotional void both of us felt, we felt like this love is as best as it gets. She was the first person in my life who listened to me so empathically so that I always found relief. We both felt sense comfort in the release of pain and anxiety. But I did not notice all the red flags since I was only 22 and not experienced in relationships at all. If I was more mature, I wouldn't jump into relationships so quickly and wouldn't lose myself. None of us had our personalities developed so that just made it so much harder. And I had no idea of the need to set boundaries, so the wrong patterns developed and ingrained, the more I allowed her anger the worse she got, same for trying to control, neither of them worked. Her BPD side and my co-dependent side was like feeding the missing in each other (we were similar in some ways but so different in other), both of us shared that deep sense of loneliness, existential emptiness, and deeply embedded shame, so that was no wonder why we got together in the first place and why it was a such an explosive start.

We both never felt worthy of affection, I came from a very abusive family with no self-esteem, she had a family history of mental problems (one of her aunts committed suicide after she was diagnosed with bi-polar and released from the hospital, back then probably the didn't even know what BPD is). Not only mental but also all women have problem with ovaries - her mother died because of this cancer, her one aunt removed one ovary recently, other one have endometriosis of size that no doctor has ever seen, they don't even know what to do with that. Plus she can act like a 3-4-year-old baby (trow tantrum after she cut in her finger or not answer message for months, she gets upset very easily so all other relatives are afraid when around her and her husband, that she could leave before time if she felt something is not good), even though being 45 years old woman, it is even shocking for other to watch, so I guess she has the exact same problem as my wife and has no clue of it, my wife's other aunt agrees with that. So it's kind of cursed family line. Mine is not that better. In some ways actually worse.

If you believe that your BPD partner is sane and you have low self-esteem and high sensitivity to guilt, then you can be trapped in despair for years, if not decades, I agree with you. It was only when I understand that I also am trying my best and that my wife's description is far from reality, got my self-esteem better and now I know that I did my best, with mistakes, like everyone else, and she has a sickness that it is no sense and never was to argue about that she is wrong on looking at me and try to talk sense in her. The question I ask my self - all these 8 years we are together, did she had a true love for me or was it just obsession and infatuation. I guess I never find that out. I can just choose to believe the one or the other.

Thank you for encouragement to get more active here, I hope I can contribute more. Yes, reading other stories, you are also put back to reality, not your fantasy as to how you would like the relationships to be, but how they truly are, because you identify most of the crazy things others write to your relationships. That is an acceptance that is not easy if you love the other person, it is much easier to believe the fantasy of the perfect person, that I can love and everything will be alright eventually. We can lie to ourselves, but that will make the problems just deeper. I am just thankful to God that we don't have children, otherwise, she would probably accuse me of child molestation one day. For quite a time, I was very careful making sure she would not get pregnant. She cannot handle herself, what could we even teach our children? Maybe after many years, things will change, but as for now, I have to detach completely. I don't want her in my life as part of relationships. I will have many temptations probably in future to take her back, but if I will stand my ground and my boundaries, it will eventually help not only me but her as well, since I don't see any future in violent relationships, they make nothing more than heartache.

[Ozzie101]

You're right. It is fortunate there are no children involved. That creates a whole other layer of complications.

Have you read much about boundaries? That's an area I struggle with a lot.

[Dave89]

I am studying the book "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie, it talks about boundaries quite a lot. I am very bad with them, I always assumed that people would leave me if I set limits to them, even worse, if I said no to things they asked. Now that is changing but will probably take many years of practice and even then won't get rid of it completely. But it's better than nothing.

When I start doing that I will see who are my real friends - the ones who can accept that I also have self-worth and there are things that can disappoint me too. It can be hard for them to accept this change, in the book "Human Magnet" it is said that around 50% of people will leave you if you start doing that, so you have other fifty with whom you can continue to have even much higher-quality relationships, where there is mutual respect.

In my early teenage years, I felt so ashamed of myself (because of how my mother treated me), that I developed very strong addiction to female domination, and that was an additional curse for me, as being co-dependent with no self-worth already. I haven't watched any porn for many years, but you know, the sexuality is still there and I have to fight it otherwise I can become very passive and not motivated to do things for my self, that is a poison that I have to fight constantly, and the main reason I do it, is because I see how bad it affects my mood when I gave in. I mostly have these feelings when my wife treated me bad since that connected to my childhood feelings as a way to transform this unbearable humiliation to something that is not as bad. In my fantasies, I would turn this incredible pain to something good that gives a very strong sense of pleasure... But of course, in the long term, it just made me feel even worse, same like with alcohol. That was my only way of coping, I don't think I would be alive now if not for my teenage years I had that addiction to get me trough the nightmare in my house and school. When I feel good about myself, I have way almost no triggers. This is another reason why I need to work intensively to set boundaries.

I'm experimenting now with my friends and it seems to work making them more respectable of me. I tried to cut down relationships because one of my 10-year friends treated me bad and I wrote that I cannot have this low-quality friendship, but he called today and was much more humble. Yes, I could have lost him forever, but I cannot be people pleaser anymore. It's ok to disagree and have my requirements for friendship, for example. I also learn from my work-mate/friend, who is really good at setting boundaries. He always takes care of him first, then his family and only then others, but at the same time he is very kind to others, but will refuse or not answer if it's not a good time for him. It is very hard to break his routine and he has some strong personality traits. So we can always find some good examples out there, I guess.

[Enabler]

Hey Dave,

I was just talking to my kids on the way back from a day out, we were talking about how people ‘market themselves’... you know, how people make themselves attractive to other people. I don’t mean in a intimate relationship way, I mean in a friendship or any relationship way. Some people are funny, some people are generous, some people are handy, some people are wild and crazy. Each person has an attribute to making them ‘attractive’ to other people. I’m some ways maybe you have found yourself in a position where you have marketed yourself as attractive because you allow people to walk all over you, you’ve become a doormat. This has in many ways worked for you (or so you thought) and you put down your attractiveness to not saying no, not sticking up for what you believe in and living a life where YOU revolve around others.

I take great pleasure in giving to other people. Maybe not in money but in hospitality and time. If someone asks me to help, I’ll push aside my own agenda and run to help. I see this as a good things... BUT, there are some people who will naturally take advantage of this good will. They’re relatively easy to spot since rather than feeling good about my generosity I feel bad, I get an inkling that these people are taking advantage. Maybe they’re presumptuous when they ask, maybe they’re ungrateful when they receive, maybe they’re unwilling to return the favour. These people are untrustworthy of your generosity. It’s okay to say “that doesn’t work for me” or “I’ve got something on, I’ll see how that goes and if I can help I will”.

We’re grown adults now, we’re not at high school, we’re all supposed to be able to take care of our own stuff. Boundaries are like your garden fence... my stuff... your stuff. It’s great to help others, it truly is an awesome personal trait and one you should cherish... but use it wisely with good people. Allow bad people to ebb away from you. I don’t know if you studied biology, but aim for symbiotic relationships, not parasitic ones. Both gain.

As many here say ‘No’ is a complete sentence.

Enabler

[Dave89]

Hi enabler,

I’m some ways maybe you have found yourself in a position where you have marketed yourself as attractive because you allow people to walk all over you, you’ve become a doormat. This has in many ways worked for you (or so you thought) and you put down your attractiveness to not saying no, not sticking up for what you believe in and living a life where YOU revolve around others.

It worked, attracting mostly all kind of users, not givers though. I am not so proud of that. Because you always feel that you have been misused. And then, you can't stand up for yourself, because you did it by your own actions. I was so scared to come to my former church since I know there will be a row of people saying - do you have space in your car, can you drive me :D they didn't even ask how I'm doing, maybe they haven't seen me in months. Yeah. You become very popular that is sure but is it kind of popularity that you want? The best friendships in my life developed with people who are also self-sacrificing, then we can always find a middle ground, we actually fight some times, who will pay for the restaurant, since everyone wants to do it... But yes, maybe at my late teens and early twenties, this helped me to at least attract some society, to not be so lonely. And oh, I forgot that they all told their lives, it could go for hours. Listening. And listening. But inside me I always had anger, just why am I doing this? But after my relationships with my wife, her ungrateful, critical and cynical attitude at the devaluation phase put everything in perspective - it can be much worse, now that I look at it in retrospective, why did I even take offense at that my old good friends who wanted to use me for good but never was thankful or reciprocal. At least they didn't scream or hit me or make accusations and damaged my reputation to tens of people, so I could consider them now quite nice people.  

It’s great to help others, it truly is an awesome personal trait and one you should cherish... but use it wisely with good people. Allow bad people to ebb away from you.

Exactly, this is true. People like polite and nice people, for example, when driving in the streets, but we also need to know when to stand up for ourselves. That is why we need boundaries, asses values, and limits, and then decide to what lengths are we going to help someone, is he or she worthy or even needing of help? Can help improve his/her life altogether, or will it be like giving the potential fisherman a fish instead of teaching to fish? You have to help others with true motives in heart, never because of obligation, fear or guilt. And sometimes help is showing them the way that you didn't like in them. In fact, sometimes that can be even more helpful. If we skip the bad part and only do good, we can become hypocrites. But we should always do it in a loving and kind manner and really wishing in heart for him or her the best future possible. Even then, we can hurt their feelings, but in the long run, they will most likely be thankful to us. And so we, when we receive a valid criticism from others, we should also be thankful for them to point out our flaws. This is how healthy interaction works, I guess...

Easy to talk, now we need to go and practice  

[Enabler]

What are some simple day to day situations which make you feel used. Detail them here and we can come up with some simple ways of helping you stand back and allow other people to help themselves.

Some of your friends may just need a nudge to wake them up to the fact your not a pushover... some may still not wake up. Those people might not be good for you!

Enabler

[Dave89]

I feel that I had made quite good progress in this regard, generally, my relationships tend to be more healthy. I don't feel used anymore that often. In the last 2 years, I learned to stand up for myself since I faced a lot of criticism due to some people misunderstanding my motives and actions, because of what my wife was telling them. I guess that made me where I am today. I'm nowhere close to be self-satisfied, but I am feeling more balanced.

In fact, the first time readiness to let go of our relationships with my wife (the most important thing I thought I had in my life) means I had made a lot of progress in regards to my insecure attachment. I had learned that it is okay to feel sad, bad, mad and so on, I try to validate my own feelings and not repress them. I try not to control or think excessively my wife's life. I let her do her stuff. Whatever that may lead into. But I will be happy if she finds and does things that will help her to at least somehow move towards progress. When we are doing things that make us joyful, we can look at others the same positive way, including our spouses. When we punish ourselves, we start to hate everyone else too. I had a theraphy session today, and it seemed like I could finally tell how I am able to accept reality and stop living in illusions. It is so hard when we have so much empathy. My therapist wondered very much how I was able to endure and be patient and put up with so many things for so long. It made me a better person, I am not the one who gives up easily, but sometimes we have to realize what works and what not and stop doing the latter.