I stumbled onto here and realized this fits my Dad

[Swimmy55]

Hello,
I am usually on BPD family about my adult son in another board.  I mistakenly opened this one and started reading and bam!  I am reading  familiar posts that sound exactly like my Dad!  He's 87 now, never diagnosed, but boy ...I visited him yesterday and he did the ever changing , circular argument trick with me, where there is never a resolution, the argument grows like a monster , and I have absolutely no clue what he's getting at. I realized yesterday it sounded like my former arguments with my 25 year old BPD son. Then I stumble here this morning! 
So I allowed the circular arguing yesterday and asked him what can I do  to put a stop to his arguing.  " Acknowledge I'm right and I have a right to my feelings" he said. So I stated that. He then re started up the arguing again, conflating stuff, mixing up times, situations, stuff that happened years ago.  He was determined to keep this going.  He actually made outrageous accusations that I almost laughed at.  For some reason I listened.  Maybe because it lead to the realization today. Maybe I'm a glutton for punishment. By some miracle I'm more sad than angry.    He is frail, had a pretty bad year as his brother died in January and his grandson( my son) had severe BPD/ drug issues .  I am still reeling from this so I will probably be more of an observer right now on this board .  Thanks for letting me post, though.

[Kwamina]

Hi Swimmy55

Welcome to the PSI community my goldfish friend  What a surprise to see you swimming around here.

I am sorry your father behaving this way has had such an effect on you. It is good though that you are now able to better sse his behavior for what it is. How did the circular argument with your dad start?

I think it can indeed be helpful to less actively engage, take a step back and observe. Then it sometimes will become really clear just how disordered the other person is and how much dysfunction is present in their behaviors.

The Board Parrot

PS. A very old and wise parrot once said: "No matter where you start out at, in the end, all roads lead to PSI."

[Swimmy55]

Thanks Kwamina
I don't even think I can actually state where the argument started.  We were talking about the news and the next thing you know he's throwing me under the bus over a conversation he conflated in his mind that happened months ago.  Then he mixed in stuff that happened years ago with my brother.  The argument grew teeth and legs as he kept talking/ ranting.  He was always like this but as he got older, he got more feeble and didn't have the energy to rant like this constantly.  But he gets a good one in once or twice a year .  This has been a hard year for the family , especially for him as his brother ( my uncle) died in January, and my son ( his grandson) got really sick with BPD, mood disorder, drugs, etc .  I allowed Dad to talk and I tried to get up 3 different times to leave stating " I love you, Dad, but I gotta go".  Then he switched to begging me to stay . And I stayed.  That is on me.  I know.  I felt sorry for him, but i know letting him verbally vomit doesn't help him or me.
Maybe because I am feeling the acute loss of my son  I also stayed and listened .  My son is pretty much in the wind now and we are not in contact . I won't say more since this would be the incorrect board , but I thought "I lost one, let me hang on to the other one."  Which is stupidity on my part , I know.   Well, I guess the only good thing is that event + this board lead to my denial about my Dad being cracked open. 

[zachira]

Swimmy55,
It can be really eerie to stumble upon the realization that some of the BPD behaviors that you experience with your son, you are also finding in your dad. I hope that this realization helps you to know that some of the ways your son and father behave have nothing to do with you, even though these behaviors are distressing and hurtful. My mother had BPD and narcissistic traits. I later realized that my brother and sister also have BPD with narcissistic traits. Knowing that some of the destructive behaviors of BPD are inherited and may not be changed without significant awareness and hardwork on the part of the person with the disorder, has helped me to make better decisions about what to do, though dealing with more than one family member with disordered behaviors is challenging and a life long sorrow. You do not have to thank us for letting you post. As we come to know how BPD affects our lives, many of the members here participate on different boards from the one that they originally posted on.

[Harri]

Hi Swimmy!  Just joining with the others and saying welcome to PSI!

I don't have much to add really.  Just hang out and read as you can.

Again

[Kwamina]

This has been a hard year for the family , especially for him as his brother ( my uncle) died in January, and my son ( his grandson) got really sick with BPD, mood disorder, drugs, etc .
...
Maybe because I am feeling the acute loss of my son  I also stayed and listened .  My son is pretty much in the wind now and we are not in contact .

I can see how losing his brother would be very tough for him. When I look at all these things though, I would not say it was just especially hard for him, it was especially hard for you as well and also for your son who's struggling with some major issues. Your dad treating you this way in fact only makes it harder for you.

Sometimes experiences like this are helpful though as in this case it seemed eye-opening for you as you are now able to see the link between your dad's and son's behavior patterns. In future interactions with your dad, stepping out and also not J.A.D.E.-ing will be a good tactic I think because when he goes on like that, it probably only reinforces in his mind that he's right and justified to act this way:

The practice of having a debate with someone who has strong biases can actually have the counter-productive effect of reinforcing their biases, as they repetitively remember and state the facts from their own point of view. This is what makes the idea of JADE - Justifying, Arguing, Defending or Explaining - such a bad idea.

Instead, it is recommended that on any given issue, state your point of view once and once only. Provide any clarifications that are asked for. Anything more than this is likely to be counter productive.

This is not to suggest that you should say nothing at all or back down in an argument. It is critical to take whatever action is necessary so that you, and any children under your care, can live in a safe, happy, healthy and productive environment. It's just not that necessary to talk very much about it.

The Board Parrot

[Swimmy55]

I am just about crying here. Maybe in relief?  Not sure, but I feel validated and heard !   

 I was in a bit of a panic about " If my Dad has BPD and so does my son, do I also have it ?)  So I was twisting and turning all night over that.

 I have to calm down and these posts have helped me tremendously.   I will re- read JADE. I am so glad you all / this board  are here. ..

[zachira]

I hear the confusion and hurt. Clearly having more than one member with BPD in your family, makes you wonder how it has affected your life and do you have BPD yourself. I have often thought the same thing. With time and lots of therapy, I realize that I have the ability to grow and change, and my family members with personality disorders don't. The fact that you are asking this question and have been selected to be an Ambassador makes it unlikely you have BPD. I would say that you may have some challenges to work out, because being around family members with BPD for  long periods of time can affect us in negative ways as we get enmeshed in their unhealthy emotional interactions.

[Kwamina]

I am just about crying here. Maybe in relief?  Not sure, but I feel validated and heard !   

I noticed:



That's the power of PSI for ya! Just look at Turkish:





You might also want to check out this thread:
Recognizing and dealing with our own unhealthy behaviors and coping mechanisms

Here's an excerpt:

When you have lived for a long time in an environment in which you've had to deal with BPD individuals, this can really take its toll on you. This is so for children raised by BPD parents, but also for people who grew up with BPD siblings and people who have for a long time been dealing with BPD in-laws, partners or children.

After long-term exposure to the behaviors of the BPD people around you, it is possible that you yourself have copied some of these behaviors. This doesn't (necessarily) have to mean that you too have BPD, but what it often does mean is that you've learned certain unhealthy BPD behaviors from the people with BPD in your life. Another thing that can happen as a result of the BPD environment you live(d) in, is that you develop certain coping mechanisms that might serve you well while in that particular environment, but maybe not so well one's your in another environment (i.e. when you're out of the house, when you're at work, in your adult life, in your relationships etc.).

[Swimmy55]

Your posts have heartened me...

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Swimmy55! 

The other resident animal here wants to welcome you, and I'm so glad you found us by accident! As the Board Parrot said,

"No matter where you start out at, in the end, all roads lead to PSI."

.  He's right! I started out here, but now I'm wandering around to the Detaching board. So many from the other boards find themselves here, and this is a great place to land.  Guess that's why we are family here. 

I'm sorry for the shock of what you learned when you came over to our board, yet I am hopeful that it will give you more puzzle pieces to your life. I grasped for those pieces myself, trying to put them into a picture that I liked, but the picture wasn't necessarily turning out like I had hoped. Instead I found that the puzzle pieces showed a different image of my life. It wasn't a bad picture, just a different one. I saw much more resilience woven throughout my life than I could've ever imagined. I bet you will find something similar in your picture too!

 
Wools

[Swimmy55]

Thank you Wool

[LoveOnTheRocks]

Swimmy:  I only want to make a comment about a worksheet my therapist gave me.  It talked about us human beings being in our child mind, our parent mind and our adult mind (lets hope this was right, it's been a while)...but the point my therapist was making to me about my aging parents is that the roles between us are changing and this will continue more and more as they age.  They are my parents, but I will be the adult/parent and they are going to be more the child...and each of us will more fulfill the roles of those stations in life.  I am seeing this happening, not a lot, but absolutely sometimes.  My mom is forgetting and remembering incorrectly, and as a parent, I am able to see my irrational toddler in her instead of needing her to be an adult...it absolutely doesn't get into my emotions when this is the case, and that's as it should be, especially when your adult mind accurately discerns that your dad has all his facts about what he's so upset about all wrong...he's a clueless little toddler who is having a tantrum and you can be the steady as a rock parent who soothes and empathizes and redirects...because you know he's genuinely having a tantrum and his facts are so fiction...
I am not saying this is role playing game stuff.  It's true.  When a toddler or elderly person gets all worked up over things that aren't actual and factual, sure, we all would get worked up if the facts were as they present...but it's hard to reason with the mind that isn't capable of handling that process of reasoning...so we sooth and redirect...and allow it without needing it to affect our true emotions...
Hope you go searching out this worksheet for the pointers on it...The worksheet has lots of bullet points under each role that show what we as humans do in these roles, and certainly my post here is not hitting them...but your OP descriptions reminded me so much of the worksheet and your dad as the toddler more than the adult parent...

[Swimmy55]

Thank you for your insight, LOTR,I will definitely research this worksheet