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Author Topic: Second Guessing  (Read 423 times)
Witz_End
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« on: August 10, 2019, 07:43:11 PM »

This kind of, in a way, plays myself a little bare and opens me up to critique, which is alright.  I realize that, while I was trying to do what I felt was best with good intentions, I did not handle things as well as could have been - obviously.

First, to be clear, I am not a physical person.  I shun physical fights at almost all costs.  Even at times I'm struggling with regulation, myself, at emotional extremes, it's a hard limit for me.

Not long ago, before realizing BPD was a factor, we had a series of fights.  In fact, the intensity of them and things within them opened up my eyes to the possibility of something like BPD and led to my exploring the possibilities.  Coming into the series of fights (and seemingly sparking a period of her own dysregulation), other events in my life came up that I knew would take an emotional toll on me.  She was aware and sympathetic, understanding, and promised support... but, two days into it, spun out and things went intensely haywire on top of blows I had taken.  I was low, supportless, and dealing with the far extremes of her wild swing.

The second night of fighting into the turmoil, after a round of hard argument, I found myself needing to step away.  It was getting too much for me and I could feel that breaking point.  I felt such a mix of things and my own emotions simultaneously wanting to lash out, but also lash in.  Anger was directed at myself, the situation, life and her as it all came together.  Retrospectively, *I* felt borderline and like I was going crazy, not k owing which way was up.  I knew I had to retreat and gather myself together, take time to walk back from a ledge.

I voiced to her that I was "nearly suicidal" and needed to be left alone and I retreated to a shed (more like a small barn) that is a convenient place to regroup.  She followed and marched in soon after, wordless but with anger radiating and a glare on her face.  I realized she wanted to be sure I was not going to do anything stupid (suicidal gestures are not my norm, but have been hers), but I also realized I could not regroup with her sitting glaring and radiating anger.  I told her, as evenly as I could, that I needed to be left alone.

She got up and stomped out angrily, but came back two minutes later in full rage, hurling a flashlight against the door and launching into a tirade.  I sat quiet for a moment, feeling trapped and then bit back in what was as much plea as anger - that I had said that I needed to be left alone and needed to regroup - that my mind was in a bad place and that, while I was not going to harm myself, I needed desperately to gather myself - that I had asked for that and was being given the opposite, being screamed at, berated and not being given what I desperately needed.

Not knowing what to do, I fled, walking out of the shed and off to a quiet corner of the property (14 or 15 acres).  Being dark, she had not seen where I went and assumed I had walked up to the road to walk wherever.  The car engine started and I heard her drive up the driveway to go looking for me, so I texted her to let her know "I never left the property.  There is no imminent danger of me harming myself.  I just needed to be alone."  The car returned, she went in the house, I returned to the shed to regroup and all was quiet for about a half hour.

Then, the van started up and I heard her start up the lane.  I knew she was not in a good state of mind either, and she has a history of suicidal gestures.  When she drives off from an intense fight, it is always a worry.  On top of that, when she is deregulated and in full rage, driving is dangerous for her.  I've seen her slam into reverse and plow into another car in the driveway.

Something that is a pattern and plays a role here is that making me wonder if she is going to harm herself when she leaves had become a manipulation.  She will rage at me if I ask if I need to worry and ask directly if she may harm herself.  I've talked to her about how it feels like emotional abuse to intentionally leave me wondering and worrying.  We both lost a 2 year old daughter years ago and the thought of seeing a second family member lifeless on a metal table is a horror.  Evoking worries of that image by internationally leaving me wondering... ouch.

This is also why I had tried to repeatedly be clear to her that I was not in any danger of harming myself and in need of being left alone to regroup.  It's also why, when she went looking for me, I had messaged her right away letting her know where I was and that there was no immediate danger.  I could not do the same to her, leaving her wondering where I was and if I was safe.

This night was particularly volatile, fed also by my own struggle with regulating myself under pressure.  There was a real worry that she was leaving to do something stupid.  She had confessed in the past to sitting by train tracks with full intention of throwing herself in front of a train.

I walked to the car as she drove the lane to leave and asked her if she was going to harm herself.  She repeated just raged back.  I told her I was just looking for an answer and that I care and do worry.  Rage, rage, rage.  I stood in front of the car and she got out.  I kept telling her that I just needed to know she would be safe, but between her state of mind, refusal to answer and how dangerous it can even be for her to drive like that, I made a split second decision that I could not let her leave - at least, not driving.  If she went on foot, I could not stop that, but behind the wheel there was added danger and she could go anywhere and not be found if she needed to be found.

But, she was blocking the door.  Bent on stopping her, I grabbed an arm and yanked to yank her away so I could get the keys.  She went flying and hit the ground and inside I went "oh  Cursing - won't cause site restrictions at Starbucks (click to insert in post)... I really did not mean for that to happen" as guilt and prediction of her reaction and possibilities like her calling the cops and me going to jail as her own remorse set in as she felt guilty for calling, a chain all feeding in on itself and all sparked my split second decision.  I grabbed the keys and, yes, sure enough she was screaming that she would call the cops as I was apologizing and trying to assure her I had not meant for her to fall, just to get he keys and keep her safe.

She did not call, of course.  Things did continue, she did end up leaving in another car and leveraged my worry about her in manipulative ways as she was out.  In the end, she was safe and I came to realize she had never really intended to harm herself, which made it all a huge ploy to curve things around to focus on her when I had hit crisis myself.  Ironically, it had worked to jerk me away from my own feeling of being on a ledge.

Obviously, I did not handle things well.  I know my intentions were good and I was trying to do the best I could in that moment, under those conditions, with her safety in mind.  I do harbor some feelings of guilt for throwing her down, even as the intent was to pull her away from the car to get the keys, and that comes from knowing I could have done better.

The questions for you all and probably helpful to others as conversation are...

1.  How do you handle situations where you are in crisis, in your own bad state struggling with dysregulation, and your partner pushes or turns things around to their own crisis?

2.  How do you handle situations where you have a legitimate fear for their safety and they are leaving?  Do you stop them?  Let them go?

Edit to add:  Holy poop, that was a long post.
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Radcliff
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2019, 11:19:10 PM »

Wow, sounds like a tough situation.  You did a lot of things right.  I'm guessing some things you'd do differently if you had a chance.  Let me ask you a couple of questions.

What are the things you feel like you did right?

Who is responsible for her safety?

RC
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Witz_End
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« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2019, 01:33:21 AM »

Wow, sounds like a tough situation.  You did a lot of things right.  I'm guessing some things you'd do differently if you had a chance.  Let me ask you a couple of questions.

What are the things you feel like you did right?

Who is responsible for her safety?

RC

Oh, I don't mean to say that I did not do anything right!  There are certainly things I did.  I stepped away to regroup and gather myself as a part of breaking the chain reaction that was going on, for example.  I communicated where I was and that I was not in danger, as another.  It's not me beating myself up over the whole thing and everything I did.

I do know that there would have been better ways to handle what happened at the car which would not have led to her hitting the ground.  The guilt is more in that she ended up hurt as part of how I chose to handle that part - the guilt of actually grabbing her arm and pulling her.

Taking the keys, itself, is probably a grey area and it's the first time I've tried that, mostly because of the intensity of things that night and concerns she was further out of her mind.  I saw it akin to taking the keys of a person who had been drinking to stop them from the danger of getting behind the wheel.  I don't feel guilty about that or that it was wrong, though also don't consider it the only or best option.  Even if she had not ended up on the ground, taking the keys alone would have escalated things and I'm sure other paths may have had the same effect without the escalation.

Ultimately, as I think your question points out gently, she is responsible for her safety.  I can not control her or make her choices, so her safety is ultimately on her as her choice.  At the same time, I do see a role of anybody who cares about anyone to sometimes step in, especially at times the other person may not be thinking straight.  So, my answer is a bit mixed... yes, her safety is ultimately her responsibility, but to use the analogy above of a friend stopping a friend from driving drunk, there is a sort of implied responsibility and trust bestowed through friendship and relationships to step in where we may not be at our best in judgment.
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Radcliff
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2019, 03:53:19 PM »

Bingo.  She is responsible for her own safety.  If we feel like caretakers for someone who is often not at their best, how much we try to "help" can be a slippery slope.  We can burden ourselves with things we shouldn't, and end up invading their boundaries in a way that can disempower them and raise conflict levels.  Starting to think through ownership in various situations and getting a better tuned sense of when to step back was a huge turning point for me, and really improved my relationships.

And yes, that was good work withdrawing to regroup.  If you had to replay the latter part of that situation, how might you play it?

RC
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Witz_End
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« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2019, 05:21:46 PM »

Quote from: Radcliff link=topic=338701.msg13069537#msg1306953
If you had to replay the latter part of that situation, how might you play it?

At this point, I've kind've drawn a line internally.  That event pushed me to a point where I'm no longer asking her if she is going to harm herself when she leaves in that state and I am not going to try to stop her.

I understand what I felt and why I did what I did at the time, so when I replay it or discuss it, I keep in mind the factors and knowledge present at the time.  However...

In another post, I mentioned that she is polyamorous... something not everyone agrees with or understands and definitely not something that works for everyone.  But, what it does mean is that she is married to me, yet had a long distance committed relationship with another man as a secondary relationship.  Where that factors in here is...

I do not speak with him much, but as I have in a couple other cases, I reached out to him when she did end up leaving, letting him know it would be a good time to reach out to her and talk her down. In most cases in the past, when she came down from things, she recognized that my reaching out to him showed how much I cared that at least someone was looking out for her.  In the wake of things, she appreciated it.

This time, she told me she would rather I not - that doing so had caused problems, which was a change in reaction - something was different.  I came to find out that it had not caused friction between her and him, but her response to him had been that she was okay, "but don't tell T that - he does not deserve to know."

In other words, she knowingly took the knowledge that I experience those situations as emotionally abusive especially having been through losing a daughter with her, and she left me to wonder intentionally... even though she knew she was not in danger of harming herself.  But, beyond that, I am guessing she realized after the fact that what she had said to him revealed an emotional manipulation to him she did not want him to see.

(Again, she does not show these things to others.  What he has seen has been limited and not directed at him.)

I am going to talk to her again about how it all has affected and does affect me.  I am not going to bring up the accusation that this time it was clearly manipulation, sticking more to how the overall pattern has affected me.  As part of it, I am going to let her know that, because it's been a pattern, I will no longer ask her, nor try to stop her from leaving as I did this past time, and I'll let her know that I will respect what she asked about not contacting him.  I'll do it in a way that says that it is not because I do not care and in a way that communicates her safety is her responsibility and I can not force it on her, so I will be there if and when she asks or needs me, but will leave it up to her to ask.

It is a line I can draw, realizing that it had become manipulation.  However, what terrifies me is that it's a "cry wolf" scenario in which the proverbial wolf will happen.  It will screw my mind up beyond belief if the next time or the time after that, she really is suicidal, doesn't ask for help, and follows through. 
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Radcliff
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2019, 09:20:20 PM »

Sounds like you'd not try to stop her next time, and want to work to avoid being vulnerable to her threats (explicit or implicit) of self harm.  Those are good steps.  In particular, not trying to stop her will avoid that source of physical conflict.

Whether in project management, pollution control, or relationships, we can avoid more trouble with less effort by stopping it as far upstream as possible.  You mention that you have very tough arguments.  Can you tell us more about those?

RC
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Witz_End
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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2019, 09:58:32 PM »

You mention that you have very tough arguments.  Can you tell us more about those?

I don't really know what to say about them other than they are probably exactly what a lot of people here experience.  Also, bearing in mind that making the BPD connection and learning how to deal with it is new, how those arguments go is likely to change.
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Stillhopeful4
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« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2019, 12:11:08 PM »


1.  How do you handle situations where you are in crisis, in your own bad state struggling with dysregulation, and your partner pushes or turns things around to their own crisis?


Hi Witz,

I only have experience with this one.  I try and leave the house myself and go for a drive to clear my head.  But I will tell her "I'm going for a ride I need to calm down, I'll be back in an hour".  Then I shut my phone off. I never use to.  I use to stay and fight, but when I realized that wasn't getting anywhere and when I leave and come back she's calmed down.

I'm use to her leaving, she's always done that.  Doing something to herself is something to herself is something she's never threatened, so I never worry.  The  most she will do is punch a door or break a glass.  She's responsible for her actions.

Sounds like a terrible experience.  ((Hugs)
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Radcliff
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2019, 10:04:45 PM »

...making the BPD connection and learning how to deal with it is new, how those arguments go is likely to change.

Yes, making that connection and starting to use the tools can be a huge help in reducing conflict.  Take a look at this page on how to learn not to “justify, argue, defend, or explain” (JADE).  I found this tool had a game-changing impact for me.  Does it seem relevant to situation with your partner?

RC
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lepman67

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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2019, 09:03:30 AM »

We can burden ourselves with things we shouldn't, and end up invading their boundaries in a way that can disempower them and raise conflict levels. 

Wow this can't be more true! I feel like many situations where my pwBPD left the house in a rage because of some totally (I thought) innocuous conversation I would run after her because I thought, "maybe if I can just explain this all to her and make her see it's not what she is thinking it is everything will be better." That never made anything better.

Once I drove around the neighborhood looking for her after the stormed off and walked this time. She refused to answer my calls and when she did eventually call back she acted as if everything was fine and I was the one who caused her to leave.

In hindsight, had I been able to give her the space she needed (though she was asking for it in a blaming sort of way), I might have realized then and there that the whole situation wasn't "normal". Maybe I might have been able to look for what was causing it then instead of it escalating to the point where we broke up.
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