New Here and Feeling Lost

[littlewillis2381]

Good evening,

So this is my first post here and I have been struggling from the get go with a woman I love very much (has BPD as of a month ago diagnosis).  Some background info... We met almost a year ago and she is an amazing, beautiful, intelligent, driven woman with her crap together, or so it seemed. 

We dated for only 5 months and I have never felt this intense connection with anyone before so I proposed.  She said yes and we were happy as can be. Now, that's not to say there weren't a few yellow, if not red flags in the relationship before this point but I thought they were just normal, emotional girl things.

Things started to worsen after the engagement starting with the trip down to show her mom the ring.  So we drive ten hours to go hang out with her mom and have some celebratory drinks.  One drink turns into six and about 4 shots for my fiancé.  On the way down I had stressed how important it was for her mom to like me as I had only met her once before.  So after a night of drinking, my fiancé has the "something's wrong" face yet again.  I say to her, "well that went really well with your mom and she seemed to love me!".  I was excited and my fiancé felt the need to shut that down quickly. 

She responds with "no, she told me in the bathroom she doesn't like you."  I was crushed naturally as that is not the read I got at all!  So disappointed, I suggest we leave and head back to the hotel.  I messaged her mom saying it was nice meeting her and I am sorry that she didn't like me as I thought we had a great connection. (part of that was because I did not believe my fiancé at all, as that was not my read on it one bit.)  So we head into the hotel room and I just try to go to bed as I'm upset, then the fight is on. 

She starts getting mad at me because I am being distant and I told her I didn't believe her and that I was super hurt because I felt she lied just to pick a fight.  Things escalated and she right hooked me in the side of the head.  I said "did you just punch me seriously?".  Then I realize we are in a hotel and other guests beside us may have heard, so I called the police as a precautionary measure.  They separate us for the night and I am so over this... until the ride home the next day. It also turns out from a message from her mom, that she did not say that at all!

In typical BPD fashion she is overly apologetic and will do anything to change including giving up drinking, etc.  It was so overboard, and with a ten hour drive home I caved by the time we got home.  The next few months were good for a week, maybe two before a massive blowout, accusations of talking to other girls, when I went away for work for 4 days at a time it was abandoning her, and just a who lot of rollercoaster ride.

Fast forward to a few weeks ago when we went to a festival and the cops got called yet again and I was charged with assault for pushing her off me because she was attacking me.  She fell in her drunken state (I was sober this time) and scraped her leg.  The police arrested me and charged me. 

Immediately the next day she felt utter remorse and regret and pleaded with the cops and victim services telling them she started attacking me (which she did yet again).  Of course, they have no discretion in this instance and I am a male so I am in the wrong.  The restraining order was lifted and we have still been talking about working things out.  I have very little friends left and the few that have stuck around I haven't been completely honest with out of embarrassment.

I have one friend that we have been high school friends (so about 20 years) and I tell her everything because she doesn't judge.  Just tonight, my fiancé tells me that her DBT therapist (at least she is getting help!) told her she should ask to look at my conversations with this friend of mine (female, so I am sure that matters to her).  She is the ONE outlet that I feel ok with talking to friend wise.  She is married with two kids in a different city for the record.

My question is, how do I react? In this moment I feel if I turn over my phone I don't have anyone to "vent" to as I feel all people need in life.  I would rather talk to her than my really close guy friends because I don't want them to dislike my fiancé and I know they would and not understand.  My initial reaction was feeling like my privacy is completely sacrificed if I do this, and I have no one else I feel comfortable talking to about day to day stuff.  She told me to talk to a therapist but they are not on call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week if we have a bad week.  The flip side is I am sure this would make her feel better but at what cost?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks very much,

M

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Radcliff]

The fact that physical altercations between you have risen to the point that charges have been filed and restraining orders issued is a big red flag.  How many times in your relationship has she gotten physical with you?

I'm curious about her therapist's advice that she look at your text conversations, and especially cautious given that your fiancee is violent and potentially controlling.  You being able to freely communicate with your support system, and your privacy, are a big deal.  Her therapist may not fully appreciate how potentially unsafe the situation is for you, and the risk to you of denying you access to your support system.  Is your phone passcode protected with a code she doesn't know?

Hmm... one thought is that you know that she misrepresented what her mom said about you.  How do you know she's accurately representing what the therapist said?  An idea that I'd like to hear others' feedback on is saying that you'd be very open to hearing the recommendations of her therapist on how you could best support her, if you could meet with them.  Don't push for it, just give a gentle invitation.  That indicates an openness to support her, but prevents you from being manipulated (though meeting with her therapist has some perils, ask us if you get to that point).  Do you have a therapist of your own?

RC

[littlewillis2381]

Thanks for the reply. This is the second physical altercation she has started with me. The cops were called both times and this one got really bad... She was feral.

I find it tough to believe that her counselor would suggest going through my phone as well. I was at the initial intake and told her that if it's absolutely what my fiance needed then that would be fine. Maybe that was a mistake on my part, but how do I know for sure? Also, my phone has a passcode that she knows, should I be changing that or is that just going to cause an outburst?

I do not currently have a therapist of my own. A couple years ago I had one from a toxic relationship but nothing since. I have been reading the walking on egg shells book in order to gain some clarity.

M

[Witz_End]

Thanks for the reply. This is the second physical altercation she has started with me. The cops were called both times and this one got really bad... She was feral.

Youch!  Sorry to hear that.  And the legal bias you mention above is horrendous.  I wish you the best of luck in that.

I find it tough to believe that her counselor would suggest going through my phone as well. I was at the initial intake and told her that if it's absolutely what my fiance needed then that would be fine. Maybe that was a mistake on my part, but how do I know for sure? Also, my phone has a passcode that she knows, should I be changing that or is that just going to cause an outburst?

First, I would definitely change the passcode ASAP.

I see two possibilities.  One is that your offer was taken up on by the therapist and one is that hearing your offer gave your fiancee the idea of how she could get into your texts.

I agree that it seems potentially dangerous of a therapist to take that offer and run with it.  I would expect a therapist could see the potential of someone who can distort reality to misread things or draw skewed conclusions.  That is a trademark of BPD that the therapist should recognize, right?  So, how do you see benefit as a therapist to giving the patient access to potential fodder for dysregulated reaction?

It's a bit of a spot, because you did offer.  If you do not follow through, that can be bad.  If you do follow through, that can equally go awry.  But, perhaps there is a way to work a middle ground that also tips the therapist if your fiancee is lying and possibly affords you a little protection from reaction...

See what others with experience have to say about this and think carefully on it or discuss it with a therapist, but as a thought:  what if you said that you gladly will, but in the presence of her therapist and only if you can discuss its content there with the therapist?

Alternatively, can you contact the therapist and ask the therapist if they can confirm that they did say that and see therapeutic value to it?  If your fiancee is lying about what the therapist has said, it may be important for the therapist to know.

What do others feel about those suggestions and their potential downfalls?

[ColdKnight]

The physical confrontation is a major red flag. I don’t think that will ever change. She’s in therapy right now so it might but that is a HUGE negative. I know you know that.

I just ended it for good with my uBPDxf today with a long hard hitting text designed to keep us apart for good. I wont reach out ever again and I don’t think she will after the scathing text I sent. It needed to be done and I’m glad its done...BUT...as I sit here typing this I miss her...if she called right now I don’t know if I would answer the phone or not. Earlier today I would have said no way will I ever answer a text or phone call again.

My point being: logically we know we should walk away but we just can’t seem to do it. I had the same “soulmate” feeling. Finally someone I actually connect with! I can never let them go! Still have that feeling.

That’s why I hate when people say “man she’s crazy you just need to walk away.”

 IF I FREAKING COULD I WOULD!

Keep up the faith brother and protect yourself. You have already been arrested once. The situation is probably going to get more volatile not less...

[Red5]

99,

One thing I have learned, when pw/bpd pick a fight, usually its about control, and then the subsequent punishment of the 'non' by the pw/bpd.
_silent treatment
_acting out
_physical violence

Why do pw/bpd want to control, well its because they feel so 'out of control' inside themselves.

When the 'non' does not "go along" with the control, that's when the punishment comes… something like this,

-not in control
-need for control
-creates drama
-resultant is chaos
-then punishment
-followed by sustained rage

At the beginning and end of this is self loathing, maybe even a "feeling of sorry"… afterwards, post police involvement, but now the damage is done to the relationship.

This is all about "supply" to the pw/bpd, as any attention, whether good, or bad, or even awful and destructive... eg' physical/hitting, as littlewillis2381 is describing… is good (soothing) to the  pw/bpd… that "supply" is like a drug to them...endorphins, dopamine, ~> all of that… almost soothing in a way to the pw/bpd… "I'm out of control", "I'm mad, "NO!... I'm angry, I'm pissed off" (rage), so everybody else should be as well in the mind of the pw/bpd, this is "feelings equal facts"… 'created chaos'… from created drama.

The pw/bpd needs to "feel" something, anything… and in a pinch, any feeling will do the job, even if its destructive.

This is a major red flag  in a beginning relationship, be forewarned.

Kind Regards, Red5

[Enabler]

I cannot see any reason at all why a T would recommend her asking you to view your private conversations. DBT is about controlling and managing impulses and emotional intensity. I don't doubt that your long standing relationship was raised in the session and probably she/the T highlighted this as an area for heightened emotional arousal and therefore high desire to be impulsive. The boundary here is "I have the reasonable right to private and confidential conversations". I think we all want to know everything, I think we all would like to know what might be said about us by our intimate partners. Not knowing this information can be upsetting... being emotionally sensitive means not knowing is going to be catastrophic and potentially prone to paranoid and delusional thoughts about what 'might' have been said. Maybe you have said things about her to the friend, maybe you haven't, HOWEVER, if you allow this boundary line to be breached, where do your draw your 'line that will not be crossed'. Similarly, where is your line in the sand for physical violence?

Boundaries need to be consistent. Do not rely on her to respect them. She respects her NEEDS, and her definition of NEED is vastly vastly different from yours with a much lower emotional threshold. 

Is it possible to clarify with a 'yes/no' answer directly with her T... e.g. "Dear T, I do not want to be involved with my GF's therapeutic relationship with you, however, it has come to light that you have suggested to my GF that she should ask to see my private conversations with my 20yr long friend. Please could you confirm whether this is correct. Regards, LW"

The T shouldn't object as you are only asking to clarify something that involves YOU and YOUR STUFF (information).

Enabler

[littlewillis2381]

Thank you everyone for the responses. One thing I see that is consistent in all your replies is that the therapist suggesting reading my messages is probably not a good idea and I do agree. This friend is not a romantic interest at all and simply a support system for me. I don't think in a heated moment where I go to vent to this friend it should be open for interpretation from my SO. I don't know how to reach out to the therapist unless I go through my SO. I'm worried the fact that I bring it up that I want to verify what the therapist said will be a "you don't believe me or trust me" conversation/fight.

Also, my line with physical violence is that can never happen again. I have a six year old daughter that loves my SO but I also need to ask myself what type of home I want eventually to raise her in. My SO and I don't live together at this time as I'm super hesitant to do so right now with all this.

This is an insane rollercoaster of a ride and I'm not sure where we end up. I do question myself in if I am strong enough to ensure this life, process while she gets help, etc. I want to be optimistic but I'm terrified. I hope that's a normal response because I feel like a POS for even thinking this way. When things are good they are absolutely amazing, but the opposite can be said when they aren't... It's the worst and most volatile relationship I've ever had and I want to run as fast as possible.

M

[Witz_End]

You say you can't contact her therapist without going through her... but, you have a name, right?  Or remember where the office is that you could look up the address?  Therapists are a business and you can often find them on the net to call (sometimes even email), right?

There are more pro's that I see to approaching it through the therapist.  Either route will likely generate flack, since you opened the door with the offer, but it seems to me there is more danger dealing with it yourself by reversing course on your offer.  To her, that would be a validation of all her fears regardless of any reason you give, but the offer that she could and then refusal can be spun so many ways in and of itself.

If you contact the therapist to "verify" that it was the therapist's recommendation (I think we all agree that is much less likely true), then the therapist can deal with it.  The therapist can be the one to tell her "no, I did not say that and no, that is not advisable - he has a right to privacy."  Yes, she will probably come at you for contacting the therapist ("conspiracy") while dysregulated.  Yes, feeling the guilt of being caught in a manipulative lie (assuming that to be the case) and losing face with the therapist *may* result in the therapist taking a hit or a storming out of therapy.  There are things that can go wrong there.

But, it takes some of the villain role off of you and puts it on the shoulders of someone used to dealing with it and who can approach it as a trained professional.  It's an opportunity for her to learn she can't lie about what the therapist says to manipulate you into providing her private conversations in a fishing expedition for rage fodder.  Let the therapist handle that.

[Radcliff]

Change the passcode.  Your phone is private.  Enforce that boundary from the start and keep it consistent.  Of course she may resist, but you don't need her to agree to your boundaries.  Erosion of your privacy is a big risk.  Don't argue with her about it.  It's simply not up for discussion.  If she's upset about it, validate her feelings.  Her feelings of upset are genuine, and you can give her sympathy and compassion, without agreeing to her opinion that your phone should be accessible to her.  Be calm and confident.

I wouldn't go through her therapist.  That can create a backchannel that could erode her trust in you and her therapist, and may be unethical for her therapist.  The phone/friend thing is something you own, and the therapist relationship is something she owns.  Ownership and boundaries are fantastic paradigms to help us reduce stress and conflict.

I'm glad to hear that you've got a firm boundary on physical abuse, are protective of what your daughter is exposed to, and are unwilling to move in with her in the current situation.  In a potentially abusive situation, your development of firm boundaries and the use of other healthy relationship tools taught here are your best protection.  As you learn to use the tools, your behavior will get healthier, and you'll be able to observe her response and see if things are moving in a good direction or not.

Tell us more about day-to-day issues.  Where is the most common source of conflict for the two of you?

RC

[littlewillis2381]

Tell us more about day-to-day issues.  Where is the most common source of conflict for the two of you?

RC

Sorry, was a hectic day at work yesterday and didn't get back to this.  I would say the most common source of conflict is either lack of physical touch (that is her love language) or trust.  I have not done anything for her to trust me except for this one time:

I was supposed to go to dinner with her to a particular restaurant on a Friday.  Earlier that week on Wednesday my brother and I decided to go for lunch and I told him to pick.  Of course he picked that same restaurant...  I was wondering if this was going to be a live grenade or a dud, and I was so sick of the stupid fights, that when she asked where I went I lied. Turns out she used snapchat GPS and saw I was at Mr. Mike's for lunch but didn't say anything that night.  The next morning I get out of the shower and she is holding the receipt (keep them for work) and confronted me on it. 

I apologized and tried to explain that I thought she would be upset and I don't even know why I lied over something so dumb.  It was the first time I felt compelled to do so but I was exhausted from all the third degree I have had.  In that moment I was trying to avoid confrontation but I should have known better.  So, then of course it turns to "you probably weren't even there with your brother and it was probably another girl... etc etc".

For a while after that she told me the trust is completely broken and started going through my phone, seeing who I was texting, going through my social media, etc.  She even when through my LinkedIn for when I had to go on a 4 day business trip just to see what girl I could potentially meet in that area based on my connections on LinkedIn in the region.

This is so exhausting at times and I feel like I am constantly on eggshells (as the book name suggests).  I am trying to learn about what I am up against, she is doing DBT as well as CBT therapy (just started a month ago).  I want to support her and I do love her.  I am viewing it as "if she got Cancer would I just bounce?".  That's not to say I am willing to forego literally everything, but while she is actively trying to get help I feel like I should at least give it a shot.

As for the phone, I have changed the passcode per all of your recommendations.  Do I tell her I have done so, or do I let her try to get in it, realize I have done it and the fight is on?  If she wants, she can ask to see my phone but I need to create that boundary that if I say no, she should respect that?  My phone seems to be a huge trigger for her.  If I get a text, email from work, weather notification etc you can see her ears perk up and I know she is dying to know.  It's frigging annoying as I don't give two craps about hers and I feel like I am doing something wrong even when I am not.

M

[Red5]

I have changed the passcode... do I tell her I have done so, or do I let her try to get in it, realize I have done it and the fight is on?  

If she wants, she can ask to see my phone but I need to create that boundary that if I say no, she should respect that?  

My phone seems to be a huge trigger for her.  If I get a text, email from work, weather notification etc you can see her ears perk up and I know she is dying to know.  

It's frigging annoying as I don't give two craps about hers and I feel like I am doing something wrong even when I am not.

#Me2!

My wife (we are separated now, eight months)… we upgraded from "flip" a few years back, at our children's behest, "get out of the stone age dad ".

She "paid" for both iPhone devices (enmeshment), so there must have been an element of "access rights justification" there to her…

I too, could care less about hers… her phone is in the same mental file as her purse to me, "off limits"… but not her, she would answer "my" phone when it rang (beeped)… she would open it and read the incoming text, I didn't care, until she started to "mine", dig for drama… eg' my ex (wife) would text, or call, from time to time… and I would ignore, I have my autistic Son from this previous marriage, so there would be contact in regards to ex wanting to visit S32(autistic) periodically… this was ALWAYS a bone of contention with her… control control control... my answer to her, my upbdw, was "please just ignore it dear"… "I do"… "we will worry about it later, not now".

… uh' no… no matter what we were doing, that all stopped… and "it" had to be vetted, fretted, and dissected right then… ugh : (

As the last few years passed, she "ramped up"… as you describe, it started to grate and annoy me more and more, she knew my passcode(s), not only to that stupid phone, but my email, and social media as well… full disclosure, and transparency right .. nothing to hide, nothing to see here… I foolishly thought, "this having full access 24/7 will take the wind out of her sails"… nope !

She sometimes would even answer my texts (from other people), and as well my email, and "inform" me later… yeah… and she was endlessly going through my social media too… "who is ____?"… "I don't like what your friend sent you"… endless garbage…

She would also leave her phone in the kitchen - living room, and go to the bedroom, and without fail, it would ring, I would ignore, as its NOT mine... and she would get mad at me… "why didn't you answer my phone"… she would say, my passwords are xxxzzz, you can look at mine anytime you want to… I told her "no", that's yours, none of my business, unless you want to share it… and only then, you will "show it" to me.

Still, "no joy"... only more drama seemed to ensue,

During fights, she would try to "take my phone away"… even snatching it from my hand…

Finally, I told her, "THIS IS MINE, DON'T TOUCH IT, OR TRY TO DAMAGE IT AGAIN!"… of course she didn't like that (boundary).

The restaurant issue… I lied to my upbdw (her) too… to quote Forest Gump, "just a little white lie, wont hurt nobody"… sometimes, I just would not tell her things…

Reasons why:
-to keep the peace
-avoid dysregulation
-plausible deniability
-to prevent implosions, explosions
-to derail drama
-counterintelpro
-to not give her ammo

But if she ever caught on, I always tried to "play dumb"… insert famous "Sergeant Schultz" line here.

*Paranoia is a major printed circuit card in borderline personality disorder programing - hard drive.

This may sound absolutely crazy… but sometimes I miss her games (cute?), and constant teenager - child like mannerisms & behaviors… sometimes it was almost comical to me… well until she went "nuclear"… and pulled out her "Louiville Slugger" (“Lucille" - shillelagh) and whacked me over the head with it (metaphorically)… yeah, I miss her… maybe I'm "the one" whom is disordered, I'll take bets on that, any takers?

… hang in there littlewillis2381

Kind Regards, Red5

[Radcliff]

OK, trust and touch are two big issues.

pwBPD can have a very tough time trusting, and us "nons" seem to end up sacrificing our boundaries in an attempt to gain trust, only to find out later that we have no boundaries and still no trust.  Maintain the privacy of your phone and e-mail.  Don't try to justify it or win an argument.  Be as calm and confident as possible, while validating her emotions (her upset is real, you can give sympathy for that without agreeing with her).  Fibbing to avoid conflict is something I also did.  Don't do it, as it's a trust destroyer.  It may not be realistic to develop a typical level of trust in a BPD relationship, but at least we can avoid making things worse.

As for whether to tell her you changed your phone code, don't do it.  That'd just start a conflict.  When it's tough to have rational conversations, sometimes the behavioral approach (actions, not discussion) can work better.  Boundary enforcement is often better suited to the behavioral approach.

As for touch, tell us more about that.  Is it difficult for you to give her touch in ways that work for her?

RC

[Red5]

As for whether to tell her you changed your phone code, don't do it.  That'd just start a conflict.

… how many times?, did I change my pass code(s)… usually after a dysregulation - fight - rage - extinction burst - "I'm done and I want a divorce" she'd say… so, I would pull out the 'scuttle the ship protocol'… and change everything, joint banking / checking accounts were another matter entirely, at least I had good sense to NOT open a joint credit card account wit her.

So we would go into silent treatment (ST), lasting anywhere from days, weeks to over a month sometimes, then the eventual recycle… and then she would ask, "hun, what's your login - password to ____."… "I need to email ____."…  !

Yeah, she was going to go into my "yayhoo email account" and email somebody from my account, you know, because we are married, and its from "both of us"… now ask your self "why"… my best answer is 'control' and or 'enmeshment' I guess… and I put up with it… for years.

… "wash rinse & repeat", & back to standard operating procedure (SOP)… until the next 'quarrel'.

Meantime, I never knew any of hers (logins or passwords), even when she would tell me the passwords to her "stuff"… I never retained them… didn't care to know, or see any of her messages, or any of her correspondence…

RC is right littlewillis2381, stick with the "need to know protocol"… ie' she don't need to know.

Am I correct in assuming, you are not married to this woman, but engaged at the moment?

If so, no(!), she doesn't need to be privy to your phone, your email, social media or anything else imho.

Yeah, she is going to get mad probably, and she is going to squawk and holler about it… and if you give in, nothing will ever change, RC is again correct there.

Red5

[littlewillis2381]

As for touch, tell us more about that.  Is it difficult for you to give her touch in ways that work for her?

So she is a physical love language person.  There was the night where I didn't walk her back from the bathroom when we both went.  That same night, I was sitting at 90 degrees from her at the restaurant table and I didn't hold her hand, or touch her leg etc and it festered.  She texted me at the table so as not to get embarrassed by the people we were with saying "do you have a problem with touching me now or something?" Of course I was super annoyed and felt like I literally cannot do enough for this person and we got into a fight.

At the end of the day I am sure in her head she expects me to hold her hand, touch her leg, kiss her, etc 24/7... when I tried to explain that isn't realistic and said maybe I don't do enough for her, she did the push... she replied "maybe you don't".  Just crap like that is fairly consistent.

Red, we are just engaged at this point and I feel even if we make it to the marriage stage she still shouldn't have a right to go through my private things.  If I kept a journal would she expect to read that as well? (Very likely haha).

[Red5]

...If I kept a journal would she expect to read that as well? (Very likely haha).

To quote the late and the great Richard Dawson, from the old tv show “Family Feud” 



... “Survey Says!”

Red5

[Radcliff]

I've certainly felt annoyed when I felt like someone was demanding something of me or wanting me to change, as you may have felt when she was expressing upset that you weren't touching her.  Try to turn it around, and think about it as her giving you very specific cues about what she needs.  Sure, she could word it in a way that's easier for you to hear, but still -- it's kind of a gift for a woman to tell her guy what she needs rather than expecting him to read her mind ;)

In the Love Languages book, the author talks about how important it is for us to learn to speak the love language of our partner.  This can take some work.  It sounds like you may already have a sense of what kind of touch she likes (hand holding, touching her leg).  Have you tried doing it and seeing how she responds?

RC

[Enabler]

I also found it interesting in the Love Languages book how we often give and receive Love in different ways. I give 'Acts of Service' and receive with 'Touch' and 'Words of Affirmation', I think for me this stems from things like playing football, coming off the pitch and my Dad (I was a Daddies boy) putting me on the back, holding me round the back of the neck as we walked to the car and saying "You played well out there son, great job". We also use our receiving love language in the opposite way to hurt other people, words of criticism for example.

The mind reading assumption is so frustrating... also, the inference that by not mind reading we don't love them is highly irrational and a no win situation.

Enabler