Part 3: UBPDgf dumped me today

[RomanticFool]

*mod note: this thread was split from this discussion: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338568.0


I have to be honest and say since I surprisingly heard from her last night, I am wondering if this is the start of a recycle or whether she was just being polite. I think if I pursued her, assuming she hasn’t met somebody else, I might be able to get her to either talk or meet. I miss her terribly but even I am struggling with the idea of reconnecting. As painful as this break up is and as much as I want her, nothing would change. She ended it because it was too toxic (her words) and her 17 year old daughter was frightened at our combustibility. My ex saw this as a deeply negative development in the relationship because prior to that she had liked seeing her mother in love. Since it  was her mother who shouted at me and attacked me I felt a little aggrieved at being blamed. However, had I handled it better, I may have been able to turn it around. I guess that goes for the whole relationship. My own push/pull behaviour made everything worse. I haven’t replied to her one sentence email. I don’t know what to say. She still has me blocked on WhatsApp and she hadn’t spoken to me for two weeks. It seems completely hopeless. Yet, she didn’t let the anniversary day go by without a comment.

[formflier]

They seem very thoughtful, so I have to imagine they are significant in meaning.

Perhaps some have some emotion attached...I'd like to understand that part better as well.

 

A very thoughtful reply.  It helps me understand better.

I did notice that a lot of thought and analysis was put into "others" and "the relationship", without much about you.   

Can you reflect a bit about the choices you made and what you were feeling and thinking about you?

Best,

FF

[RomanticFool]

Much of my emotional life feels painful and empty.. When I met the AA woman for the first time in a long time I felt alive and optimistic about the future. When I told my wife about the relationship I felt like I had betrayed her and let her down in the worst possible way. I had broken my pledge to stay with her and was about to abandon her for a woman I had known for two weeks. The insanity of that situation and thought process stopped me from leaving.

This caused me a great deal of pain going forward. My wife and I went to Venice about a month into the affair and I didn’t really want to go. I told the new lady and she wasn’t happy I was going with my wife. We missed each other horribly. I felt like a fraud in my marriage. I tried to put a brave face on it for my wife. I was constantly frightened the affair woman would meet someone else. When I got back we were delighted to see each other and had some nice times but her emotional life was up and down with understandable insecurity which then made me feel anxious.

I spent a great deal of time throughout the affair feeling anxious/guilty and frightened. I’ve also spent a lot of time feeling bereaved every time I’ve been dumped or given silent treatment or physically and verbally attacked. I feel as if I might be suffering from PTSD. When she ended the relationship for three weeks I felt suicidal. I started going to SLAA to cope with my grief and I contacted a suicide prevention charity. That was about two months ago. This time she has cut me off for two weeks. Tonight she started talking to me again. I get the impression she is really fishing for information about what I’ve been up to. I told her I miss her and I’ve just been working. She replied I’m sure you’re having fun. I said I’m just trying not to go nuts missing the woman I love and was on holiday with a few weeks ago. She hasn’t replied to that. There has been NO mention from her side that she misses me but just said she is trying to keep busy and have fun. It’s like talking to a teenager. It makes me feel unloved and disposable.

If she’s a narcissist all I’m doing is giving her supply. Not sure if she is interested still or if it’s just a control mechanism to make sure I’m suffering..

[RomanticFool]

Just had an altercation with her. She was being a little insulting via email and I stopped replying. She then said "Anyway, been lovely talking to you. Reminds me why we haven't (talked). Got to dash, have a lovely rest of evening.' All sarcastic. I replied, "I didn't know whether you wanted to talk or just insult me.'

So that may be that. I think I just decided that I don't want to go back to that toxic awfulness. So that's progress I guess. If her answer to me telling her I miss her and I'm unhappy without the woman I love is to call me a 'nutter' (lunatic) on three occasions (inferring everything that happened between us is down to me) I don't think I'm really interested in going back there. The tone wasn't warm and friendly, it was combative and insulting. It strikes me as an odd way to behave when you haven't seen or spoken somebody for two weeks. No empathy at all.

[Skip]

... indeed a beautiful definition of love.
My gut reaction is that it’s as idealistic... not sure I know anybody who has adhered to this... the reality of life is that human beings are often concerned with their own wants and needs. I’m certainly not going to find that with emotional vampires like some of my exes.

your next bit of advice is about standing on my own without a relationship...
Isn’t it an intrinsically self-centred thing to focus on myself... I need the human contact...

I agree that I need to find my integrity. Not sure what you mean about masculinity.
All of my strong role models were women. I don’t want to be a classic masculine man. The fact I am more in touch with my emotional side makes me feel more emotionally intelligent than some meathead...

I like your definitions of what love should be.
I think [to the contrary] often the limerence stage of a relationship can turn into love though. ... One has to be honest about what one wants in a relationship otherwise you end up resentful and having your own emotional needs neglected.

This thinking isn't working, RF.

The path I suggested in my last post is one that many (but not most) people have taken. I know a lot of people that have been on that path. I suspect they are likely in the top 10% of quality relationships in the world. Having a good relationship is not unrealistic... but it takes a great deal of emotional intelligence and good decision making.

There is a path in life that will yield better results for you and the people around you. There is another path that is going to bring pain and destruction to you and the people around you.

You keep choosing the path of pain and destruction. And your life is filled with pain and destruction.

I'm not trying to blame you or take side in your current dispute. That's not the point. But I am saying look at the b. ig picture. Look at the pain and destruction you have experienced in the last 6 years...

You were suicidal this year. You were suicidal a year ago with another partner. Your last partner was suicidal. She ended up in the hospital. Her husband and kids were betrayed. Your wife has probably been suicidal. This new person (narcissistic AA women as you refer to her) is in a love/hate relationship with you... she feels that you betrayed her. Her daughter is upset with you. And then there is your wife's family... betrayal.

Women fall out of love in stages. When they find out you are married, the relationship value drops. When you say you are leaving your wife and they find out that you haven't filed for divorce, the value drops further. When you go on vacation with your wife,  the value drops further. When you say you aren't leaving because they aren't committed enough to you, the value drops further. Each month that this continues, the value drops further. When you say you love them, but have a wife in the wings you can't let go of,  the value drops further. When the conflict occurs and you get physical (even if justified in your own mind),  the value drops further.

You can tell her you love her, but she looks at your actions which are not acts of love, and the audacity just pisses her off. This is what is going on. She can't compartmentalize just the good parts and ignore the big picture. You are compartmentalizing and it makes it hard for you to understand what is going on.

All women are going to react this way. You would react that way - it really troubled you that your last affair partner wouldn't dump her husband and child for you... these are just impossible situations in which to build a meaningful relationship. It doesn't matter how nice and caring you were in the early months, sitting by her bedside in the hospital, cooking her dinner, stroking her hair - the cloud of your wife in the background, the obvious mistreatment of your wife, the fact that you were in a 6 year affair before this... all of this is a ship anchor in your little row boat, and no amount of artful rowing of the boat is going to keep that little boat afloat.

You have to address the anchor.

You have to stop the toxicity before anything good is going to happen in your life. You learned this about the alcoholism 16 years ago. You know the same is true about this relationship model, but you can't stop.

Yes, she is treating you crappy now. There are mountains of resentment that have built up. You knew going in that she has her own demons and past addictions. She is less than two years sober, if I remember correctly. You both talked early on about your suspicions of mental heath issues and your inabilities to cope well with adversity...

You can recycle again, RF. She is still talking with you. There might be 1 or 2 or 4 or 5 recycles left before this relationship is fully burned out, but the boat anchor is ultimately going to win.

You might just want to admit defeat and let this go. What you describe is a relationship that is past recovery.  It will be painful, if you do it now, but it very well might be more painful if you go a few more recycles and it gets physical, or she finds another man and throws that in your face. Someone could get hurt - either by the others hand or by their own.

As an aside, where is your wife these days? Is she living with family? Did she move back? Do you two still spend time together? Talk?

[RomanticFool]

The path I suggested in my last post is one that many (but not most) people have taken. I know a lot of people that have been on that path. I suspect they are likely in the top 10% of quality relationships in the world. Having a good relationship is not unrealistic... but it takes a great deal of emotional intelligence and good decision making.

There is a path in life that will yield better results for you and the people around you. There is another path that is going to bring pain and destruction to you and the people around you.

You keep choosing the path of pain and destruction. And your life is filled with pain and destruction.

I see the pain and destruction. I cannot get away from the idea that the people with BPD traits in my life need me to become somebody who I am not capable of being...yet. Namely somebody unreactive and unemotional at all times, despite them saying what they want to me. That is probably impossible for me.

My ex gf has been acting as my confidante and we have been getting along extremely well. Today she asked me for a photo of my most recent gf. She told me that she has a problem with idealising what this woman looks like and it is causing her alot of trouble. I apologised profusely and said I wouldn't talk about the latest ex anymore and that I'm sorry I was triggering her. I also said I didn't think it was a good idea to send her a photo for her to compare (and possibly despair) and there was also a privacy issue. She then upped the ante and said that i should examine my motives for not sending a photo and since she has helped me freely, putting out of her emotional pain was within my power. She said that I need to look at my motives for not sending it and stop kidding myself or I would have nobody to talk to. I repeated that it was not a good idea to send a photo and what she said to me is tantamount to emotional blackmail. She has now blocked me on WhatsApp and is no longer talking to me. So again, I have messed up. I should have validated her feelings but I feel she is trying to manipulate me into sending a photo. So now that is two BPD women out of my life. Both of whom I care for deeply and both of whom think the problem is me.

'm not trying to blame you or take side in your current dispute. That's not the point. But I am saying look at the b. ig picture. Look at the pain and destruction you have experienced in the last 6 years...

You were suicidal this year. You were suicidal a year ago with another partner.

Your last partner was suicidal. She ended up in the hospital.

Her husband and kids were betrayed.

This new person (narcissistic AA women as you refer to her) is in a love/hate relationship with you... she feels that you betrayed her.

Her daughter is upset with you.

I still feel suicidal. Just hanging in there until the withdrawal passes.

Not sure my most recent ex feels betrayed so much as that I am a narcissist myself and therefore impossible to have a relationship with. She sees everything that has gone wrong in the relationship as my fault. She no longer cares whether I've left my wife or not.

Women fall out of love in stages. When they find out you are married, the relationship value drops. When you say you are leaving your wife and they find out that you haven't filed for divorce, the value drops further. When you go on vacation with your wife,  the value drops further. When you say you aren't leaving because they aren't committed enough to you, the value drops further. Each month that this continues, the value drops further. When you say you love them, but have a wife in the wings you can't let go of,  the value drops further. When the conflict occurs and you get physical (even if justified in your own mind),  the value drops further.

You can tell her you love her, but she looks at your actions which are not acts of love, and the audacity just pisses her off. This is what is going on. She can't compartmentalize just the good parts and ignore the big picture. You are compartmentalizing and it makes it hard for you to understand what is going on.

The first paragraph is very helpful, though it hurts to read it because four weeks ago her and I were on holiday together and two weeks later she ended the relationship. Pain pain pain.

I am no longer with my wife. It didn't matter. The devaluation was well underway by that stage. The issue is now with how she perceives my communication. On Sunday she called me a 'nutter' three times. Twice I laughed it off and the third time I sent an eye roll emoji. She took that as her cue to taunt me about that being the reason we don't talk anymore and said 'must dash.' I don't think I could win her back even if I was of a mind to do so. Her behaviour is outrageous in my opinion and I do not possess the restraint of character to ignore those taunts. I am much better than I was. I didn't escalate the situation at least. I simply said, 'I wasn't sure whether you wanted to talk or just insult me.' She hasn't replied since Sunday.

All women are going to react this way. You would react that way - it really troubled you that your last affair partner wouldn't dump her husband and child for you... these are just impossible situations in which to build a meaningful relationship. It doesn't matter how nice and caring you were in the early months, sitting by her bedside in the hospital, cooking her dinner, stroking her hair - the cloud of your wife in the background, the obvious mistreatment of your wife, the fact that you were in a 6 year affair before this... all of this is a ship anchor in your little row boat, and no amount of artful rowing of the boat is going to keep that little boat afloat.

Wish I'd never got involved with either woman. Especially the latest one. It's been excrutiatingly painful.

You have to address the anchor.

You have to stop the toxicity before anything good is going to happen in your life. You learned this about the alcoholism 16 years ago. You know the same is true about this relationship model, but you can't stop.

Yes, she is treating you crappy now. There are mountains of resentment that have built up. You knew going in that she has her own demons and past addictions. She is less than two years sober, if I remember correctly. You both talked early on about your suspicions of mental heath issues and your inabilities to cope well with adversity...

You can recycle again, RF. She is still talking with you. There might be 1 or 2 or 4 or 5 recycles left before this relationship is fully burned out, but the boat anchor is ultimately going to win.

You might just want to admit defeat and let this go. What you describe is a relationship that is past recovery.  It will be painful, if you do it now, but it very well might be more painful if you go a few more recycles and it gets physical, or she finds another man and throws that in your face. Someone could get hurt - either by the others hand or by their own.

I agree with you that it's past repair. The last time she dumped me I emailed her every day with words of love and poetry. I have contacted her just twice this time. I do not intend contacting her further. She is damaged and unless she goes into therapy there is no chance of her changing. Unless I do work on myself it will be incredibly toxic still. I need to step out and heal. If I see her with somebody else it will enflame me and I need to steer clear of her area. Easier said than done as she lives very near many of my haunts and she goes to my local meetings so I have changed fellowships and AA meeting locations. It's really awful.

As an aside, where is your wife these days? Is she living with family? Did she move back? Do you two still spend time together? Talk?

My wife lives an hour North of London. We talk all the time and have met up a few times as friends. We get on extremely well and she bears me no ill will. I feel tremendous warmth for her and terribly guilty. We have said that it is a trial separation so we will see what happens.

[Skip]

I see the pain and destruction.

But, you're not ready to make the big changes... I get that.

Does this sound insanely convoluted? Do you think there is still a happy ending growing below the surface waiting to pop out? Maybe affair #2 will have a change of heart? Maybe affair #1 will finally see the light?  Maybe your wife will decide that she needs to give more of herself to win you back?

What is the best case scenario here?

The current affair partner:

I cannot get away from the idea that the people with BPD traits in my life need me to become somebody who I am not capable of being...yet. Namely somebody unreactive and unemotional at all times, despite them saying what they want to me. That is probably impossible for me.

Yet?  

You told her you were possibly BPD... that you can't contain your emotions at times and push/pull to be heard.

You think she is NPD. She thinks you are NPD. You both think each other is deeply broken.

You want her. But you can't get along with her. You know you would need to change, even if only to stop the fighting. You can't.

The ex-affair partner:

My ex gf has been acting as my confidante and we have been getting along extremely well. Today she asked me for a photo of my most recent gf. She told me that she has a problem with idealising what this woman looks like and it is causing her alot of trouble. I apologised profusely and said I wouldn't talk about the latest ex anymore and that I'm sorry I was triggering her. I also said I didn't think it was a good idea to send her a photo for her to compare (and possibly despair) and there was also a privacy issue. ..//.. She has now blocked me on WhatsApp and is no longer talking to me.

You are confiding and seeking guidance from someone who has been institutionalized on more than one occasion and who you fought with for over a year before breaking up. She has some of the same beefs as your current affair partner. You two are fighting. You both think each other is deeply broken.

The ex-affair partner:

My wife lives an hour North of London. We talk all the time and have met up a few times as friends. We get on extremely well and she bears me no ill will. I feel tremendous warmth for her and terribly guilty. We have said that it is a trial separation so we will see what happens.

Do you think she is just grieving the relationship and going through the stages of falling out of love?

[RomanticFool]

I think I am ready to make the big changes. This can’t go on. It’s car crash city.

The scenario I fantasise over most is to be with the recent ex. However, it’s impossible. Even if I were to make all the right moves and noises, she is so far down the road of hating me nothing would win her over. She has no respect for me and I don’t see that changing.

We would both need to be in therapy and she would need to own her 50%. That is never going to happen. She recently denied I was the great love of her life so there is no hope, I feel.

The ex affair woman has qualified as a counsellor and is doing a psychology degree. We haven’t gotten on well for the last few months. But you are right, she does have the same beefs. Same behaviour as before too. I feel I’ve behaved well to her but she thinks I’ve insulted her.

My wife says she still loves me. I don’t know if she is falling out of love. She is relatively ‘normal’ so no object constancy issues. Just good feeling and we get on well.

[RomanticFool]

I meant to myself and the ex affair woman HAVE gotten on well until today.

[Skip]

My wife says she still loves me. I don’t know if she is falling out of love. She is relatively ‘normal’ so no object constancy issues. Just good feeling and we get on well.

This thinking is destroying you. You are very in tune with your own feelings, but you really struggle to understand others. And I'm not really talking about the specific feelings at a specific time, but the universal feeling that people have in situations.

Do you honestly think that being married had no impact on your current relationship problems?

Do you also think, your wife is not mourning the loss and failure of her marriage and is not falling away? Bit by bit, day by day.

You are on a downhill ride with all three women...

[Skip]

I've listened to this song 1,000 times. At the young age of 25 years, Robert Smith penned a moving song about the loving an image and the thought that if he just knew the "right words", he would have saved the love of his life.

In an interview he said "The idea that you hold of someone isn't really what that person is like. Sometimes you completely lose touch with what a person has turned into. You just want to hold onto what they were to you."

Smith was influenced by the book, "The Dark Power of Ritual Pictures" by Myra Poleo. So many of us cry at night of the pictures of life that we can't hold onto.


Date: 1989Minutes: 7:33
Pictures of You live - The Cure

Pictures of You
The Cure
I've been looking so long at these pictures of you
That I almost believe that they're real
I've been living so long with my pictures of you
That I almost believe that the pictures
Are all I can feel
Remembering you standing quiet in the rain
As I ran to your heart to be near
And we kissed as the sky fell in
Holding you close
How I always held close in your fear
Remembering you running soft through the night
You were bigger and brighter and wider than snow
And screamed at the make-believe
Screamed at the sky
And you finally found all your courage
To let it all go
Remembering you fallen into my arms
Crying for the death of your heart
You were stone white
So delicate
Lost in the cold
You were always so lost in the dark
Remembering you…

[RomanticFool]

Do you honestly think that being married had no impact on your current relationship problems?

I think it had a huge impact on my recent ex. I have been thinking that had I left my marriage when I said I was going to then the new woman and I might be together still. My previous ex was married herself and was never going to leave her marriage.

"The idea that you hold of someone isn't really what that person is like. Sometimes you completely lose touch with what a person has turned into. You just want to hold onto what they were to you."

I feel exactly like this with my recent lady. The person I thought she was at the beginning is not the person she has turned into. Whether that's to do with me being married or simply the way she is could be the subject of a long debate. One thing I know for certain, she would not have been supportive over the financial hardships it would have incurred. I also feel she has very little empathy. Whatever the pros and cons of me being married, the way she is behaving in a break up is difficult to stomach. After two weeks no communication she tells me that she is going out and 'having fun.' What was the point of her replying to my emails? Does she just want to taunt me or does she want to reconnect. I miss her so badly I wanted to kill myself today. I even thought about how I would do it. That is the level of agony I am experiencing. Whatever you say about my marriage, she knew I was going to leave. In the end she didn't care about me being married. It became a personal vendetta against me in the guise of me being difficult with her. Again a total lack of empathy for the fact I left my marriage and that has an emotional fallout. She isn't interested in my emotional life. She just wants hers to be alright. I don't say this with any anger or resentment. I know who I'm dealing with and what she's like. I just wish she was as lovely to me now as she was at the beginning of the relationship, instead of the savage person she is now. What does she want from me?

Do you also think, your wife is not mourning the loss and failure of her marriage and is not falling away? Bit by bit, day by day.

My wife is not upset with me. She tells me she still loves me. I don't think she is falling away. Quite the reverse.

[RomanticFool]

Smith was influenced by the book, "The Dark Power of Ritual Pictures" by Myra Poleo. So many of us cry at night of the pictures of life that we can't hold onto.


Date: 1989Minutes: 7:33
Pictures of You live - The Cure

Pictures of You
The Cure
I've been looking so long at these pictures of you
That I almost believe that they're real
I've been living so long with my pictures of you
That I almost believe that the pictures
Are all I can feel
Remembering you standing quiet in the rain
As I ran to your heart to be near
And we kissed as the sky fell in
Holding you close
How I always held close in your fear
Remembering you running soft through the night
You were bigger and brighter and wider than snow
And screamed at the make-believe
Screamed at the sky
And you finally found all your courage
To let it all go
Remembering you fallen into my arms
Crying for the death of your heart
You were stone white
So delicate
Lost in the cold
You were always so lost in the dark
Remembering you…

Beautiful. I love The Cure.

[Skip]

I just wish she was as lovely to me now as she was at the beginning of the relationship, instead of the savage person she is now. What does she want from me?

I think you know. Read your words. 

I have been thinking that had I left my marriage when I said I was going to then the new woman and I might be together still.

At this point, don't you think its all about deep rooted mistrust (around the marriage and affairs), and the track record of volatility between you two when there is conflict.

You met her. It was lovely. The relationship was built on promise of what could be. It was hope. A year has past, the dynamics are chaos. The relationship is now built on mistrust/resentment, and increasing volatility.

Here's the thing, RF. A year ago when this relationship started, people predicted this outcome based on the situation. You didn't want to hear it. You felt judged. You were angry at times.

If you go down this same path with another women, it will likely end the same way. The only women who is going to accept this is a women who doesn't care about a future and just wants a safe fling. That was your first affair.

My wife is not upset with me. She tells me she still loves me. I don't think she is falling away. Quite the reverse.

You have led women number 3 to believe that your marriage was dead and there are secondary reasons why your haven't divorced (e.g. financial). At the same time, you have approached this as a trial separation with your wife (meaning, the door is open to go back) - of course you wife still doesn't know that 7 of the 10 years of her marriage, she has been the #2 women.  Does wife and women # 3 know you have been using women #2 as a confidant?

No judgement here, RF. I know you are sincerely following your feelings. My point is that the "mistrust" is a huge issue that will eventually surface and derail any and every healthy relationship you start and it will make them unrecoverable. Once people see the reality, they will not be able to "unsee it" and get past it unless they are seriously unhealthy themselves.

Think how this looks to other people (not what is in your heart), but how it looks and how people will decide how safe you are, healthy you are, eligible you are.

You've been here 2+ years, and aside from a few weeks of fantasy nights, things have gotten worse for you, not better.  You are in three relationships that are unsatisfying to you, loaded with deceit, and you can't let any of them go. You are terrified of being alone.

You want a healthy, sexy, passionate relationship... but you struggle to make yourself attractive to a healthy, sexy, passionate partner.  You even asked the question, a few days go, "how to I learn to deal better with pwBPD in the future". It sounds like you expect to be in relationships with mentally ill people after this one.

Break free.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hey RF-

I know you’re having a hard day, a difficult time.  Don’t give up.  Hold tight and Work with Skip, okay?

Hugs to you.
Gemsforeyes

[RomanticFool]

I think but I may be wrong, that she wanted me to chase her, so she can play hard to get and keep me under her power and control. Due to what I do for a living, it probably gives her self esteem to have me chasing her. I have been hooked enough to do it for best part of a year. But I’m discovering some self care. As much as it pains me I have left her alone. I am engaged in an all consuming piece of work and I can’t concentrate with daily upset in my life. The days when she works from home kill me to know she is just around the corner, possibly with another man. I almost can’t bear it, but I have to for my own sanity and well being.

Many of the things we have discussed over the last two years are things that I discussed with my AA sponsor many years ago. I can’t undo the past. All I can do is recognise my issues and try to address them. It hurts to think that the situation with my recent ex could have been so different had my circumstances been different. On the other hand she is a woman with a history of leaving men. She is also combative and unforgiving when things go against her. I probably realised this early on. My intuition knew that she probably would not be reliable. The sensible thing to do, for her and myself, would have been to leave her alone, like I did with other women in AA for 16 years. But something about her meant that I did the opposite. Maybe I knew she would be  receptive to my advances, after all I was playing piano before a meeting when she approached me. Whatever the situation, I believe now that I never possessed the skills to deal with who she really is. It was great at the beginning of the relationship but there were enough clues as to who she really is. She told me that she loves ‘fiercely’ when engaged. That word worried me at the time (as well as excited me) and my wise head should have stepped in. Anyway, coulda, shoulda woulda.

I thought my marriage was dead a year ago and had every intention of leaving. When push came to shove it just seems to insane a decision to make based on a new relationship. I took my time because I wanted it to be about the issues in the relationship rather than an affair.

If I could do it all again. I would have left the AA woman alone as I had countless other women I’d been attracted to in AA. I should then have had the courage to address the marriage issues.

I think I am scared of being alone. But the promise of a wonderful life with the new woman was too intoxicating to let go. Finally it’s become too toxic to chase again.

[RomanticFool]

Thanks Gems. It’s all a learning experience. I’m only 56

[RomanticFool]

I have to say, that it almost feels like karma coming back on me. Two of the most amazing women I’ve been involved with have blocked me on WhatsApp and want nothing more to do with me. The woman who has been the most consistently stable and has always cared about me, still wants a relationship. Perhaps I knew that when I got married.

[Skip]

If I could do it all again. I would have left the AA woman alone as I had countless other women I’d been attracted to in AA.

Is connecting with another alcoholic the way to go? AA doesn't recommend it.

I have to say, that it almost feels like karma coming back on me. Two of the most amazing women I’ve been involved with have blocked me on WhatsApp and want nothing more to do with me. The woman who has been the most consistently stable and has always cared about me, still wants a relationship. Perhaps I knew that when I got married.

So, taking sex out of the picture, how where these amazing women, amazing?

The first was cheating on her husband and children and breaking down another women's marriage (the mirror image, right). What is amazing about her? Her family values? Integrity? Honesty? Her ability to love? Emotional intimacy? Companionship?

Was it more than good sex. You liked the physicality of it. She liked being courted and  charmed and taken from the drudgery of her day to day family life. Can you give her a grade higher than "F" on all the things I mentioned?

The second one you tagged as NPD from the start. The first years has been a roller coaster. What grade do you give her?

What was amazing about your affair partners?

Was it that they were fantasy relationships. Goddesses that lived at the end of the rainbow.

[RomanticFool]

What was amazing about your affair partners?

Was it that they were fantasy relationships. Goddesses that lived at the end of the rainbow.

Depends what criteria you are judging people on I guess. In terms of their morals, then I guess they are not amazing people. But history is full of extraordinary people with questionable morality. The crime writer Ann Perry murdered her mother, Enid Blyton neglected her kids, William S Burroughs killed his wife...To me, the women I became involved with are extraordinary in the way they have survived their lives with severe mental health issues and are trying to transform their existences. The first affair partner is training to be a psychiatrist at an advanced age, while suffering severe mental health issues herself. The most recent ex is attempting to address her addiction issues, reconnect on a meaningful level with the daughter she was denied access to when she walked out of her marriage and deal with the wreckage of her childhood. While I may be collateral in their continued inability to maintain stable relationships, I can see that their mental health issues have played a huge part in their turbulent lives. That doesn't make it any less painful for me, but at least I can see that they are not bad people, they are damaged people.

To some degree they are Godesses at the end of a rainbow. The first one definitely as there was never any hope of us ever being together. I was completely deluded to pin any hopes of a relationship on her. But that is my insanity, I guess. The most recent ex I thought was a realistic prospect for a decent relationship. She seemed healthy enough when we first met, but she was only one month sober in AA and it was very ill advised of me to get involved with her. My friend who has been in SLAA for many years describes these kinds of people (and he included me in his description) as push-me-pull-yous, invoking Dr Dolittle's creature...I think this is a great description of how the constant push/pull dynamic is a feature of some of the relationships I've been embroiled in.

Both of these women contacted me last night with good wishes for my work. My heart sank a little when I saw the most recent ex's message. Her message of good wishes was followed by "Are you ignoring me?" as I took time to reply due to work. This is a great example of her sense of entitlement. She blocks me for best part of three weeks and then comes back into my life and demands instant reconnection with me. This is both unreasonable and abusive but I did not get involved in a spat. Had I not wanted to hear from her I would have blocked her. I was magnanimous and thanked her for her reply and said I was late back from work and was now going to sleep. As far as I can tell she didn't even read the WhatsApp message (no blue ticks) but her last activity on there was 1.30am. That's the reason why everybody in SLAA has been telling me to block her. My previous ex blocked me for a day after I refused to show her the photograph of the recent ex. I haven't responded yet.

Even though the situation above is dysfunctional and ill advised, I feel that I am changing. For all the pain of withdrawal, I do not want to reconnect with the recent ex. God knows what she's been doing for three weeks (in her words "keeping busy and having fun") but I really don't want to know anything. It is not good for my emotional sobriety. I am not doing any blocking or arguing or enflaming of any situation. I will simply accept that she is going to behave how she does and it's got little to do with me or anything I may be doing or not doing. I am going to get on with my life. If it becomes too unbearable to remain in contact then I will have to tell her.  

[Skip]

Your definition of amazing and definition of unattractive should be helpful, RF.

I think what you are saying that your affair partners were primarily amazing in terms of sexuality prowess and the chase. This has your upmost respect. Otherwise, they were morally broken, mentally imbalanced, and were highly emotional, erratic, and dramatic, and struggled with basic life functioning. It is the sex.

Your wife, who you do not find to be attractive, is the opposite.

If anything, you are fighting your own choice of women in that you are seeking sexuality prowess and the chase above all and willing to compromise on morality, mental balance, emotional stability, and basic life functioning.

At the same time, the morally brokenness mentally imbalance, and emotional instability, and life struggles is a constant source of pain for you. You complain at length about your fear that they are cheating on you which is extremely painful to you. You complain at length about there selfishness and emotional centricity.

Do you agree?

Certainly there are women who are far more moral, mentally balanced, emotionally stable, and sexually compatible, but you don't have the commitment or patience to find or attract them. You are (and most likely will continue) shopping sexual flings at AA (and totally investing yourself in them) and hanging on to (or using) a faithful wife to give you stability.

We have members that get caught up in mentally unhealthy relationships when they blow up, they come here to understand and change their ways.  And we have those that seek troubled women and relive troubled relationships over and over.

Which will you be.

And yes, RF, I agree with you that both affairs were fraught with chaos that would be hard for anyone to make sense of.

[RomanticFool]

If anything, you are fighting your own choice of women in that you are seeking sexuality prowess and the chase above all and willing to compromise on morality, mental balance, emotional stability, and basic life functioning.

At the same time, the morally brokenness mentally imbalance, and emotional instability, and life struggles is a constant source of pain for you. You complain at length about your fear that they are cheating on you which is extremely painful to you. You complain at length about there selfishness and emotional centricity.

Do you agree?

All I've ever wanted is love in a non sterile relationship. I don't want drama or even the chase anymore. My inner child constantly wonders how I get in a position with damaged people.It screams at me to find somebody nurturing. All I want is love with the right person. I was a serial monogamist in my twenties but clearly the love and sex addiction took hold of me along with the alcohol addiction. Even after that I had a fulfilling relationship with a Spanish woman for five years. Then I met some damaged women and things started to spiral. When I'm engaged with people who reject me I go to a place of abandonment and desperation. It fuels the behaviour that makes me chase them.

My recent ex contacted me on Thursday demanding to know why I hadn't invited her to my current piece of work. I was utterly astounded and reminded her that she hadn't spoken to me for three weeks. She then said  that I "didn't try hard enough and that I wasn't real." I told her that she had ended the relationship twice this summer and it had been intensely painful. She seems to believe that not talking to me for several weeks and then reconnecting will somehow make things better. She does not want to hear about the pain the absence and silence causes. What kind of person behaves that way? I don't want pain. I want love.

Certainly there are women who are far more moral, mentally balanced, emotionally stable, and sexually compatible, but you don't have the commitment or patience to find or attract them. You are (and most likely will continue) shopping sexual flings at AA (and totally investing yourself in them) and hanging on to (or using) a faithful wife to give you stability.

We have members that get caught up in mentally unhealthy relationships when they blow up, they come here to understand and change their ways.  And we have those that seek troubled women and relive troubled relationships over and over.

Which will you be.

I don't think one relationship in AA in the last 16 years means I am "shopping sexual flings."  I am not using my wife at all. I had the courage to break away from the relationship. There is no stability in my marriage. We are separated.

I understand a great deal of the way my behaviour plays out at the beginning of relationships. Unboundaried and emotionally and sexually intense. When I engage this behaviour with women who are damaged then I get to where I am now. That is what I must change. The way I behave at the beginning of a relationship and get to know a person before jumping into bed and declarations of love. I need to make sure that my issues don't become triggered by what a friend in AA called push-me-pull-you behaviour.

On top of this I need to refrain from emotional reactivity but that is easier said than done when dealing with somebody like the recent ex who shows no empathy with or interest in my emotional life or my well-being. She sees me as an irritant to be picked up and put down when she feels like it. These three week make up/break up cycles are being perpetuated by her. Interestingly I didn't chase her this time nor have I really engaged in her agenda, I just told her how it feels being discarded for three weeks and she couldn't really expect me to invite her out when she behaves that way. Her response was to say that she was obviously wasting her time reaching out to me again. I don't know how she is used to conducting relationships but that doesn't work for me and I must be clear with her about that.

Of course I would like to find somebody healthy, emotionally stable, mentally balanced and sexually compatible. That is my aim.