PART 3: Brother's wife with BPD traits, my parents are turning blind eye...

[Jareth89]

Mod Note:  Part 2 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338375.0

To be honest, I agree with this principle:

'You don't have to accept emotional abuse in your relationship. You can get help or you can end it. Most emotionally abusive women don't want help. They don't think they need it. They are the professional victims, bullies, narcissists and borderlines. They are abusive personality types and don't know any other way to act in relationships.  Life is too short to spend one or more second in this kind of relationship. If your partner won't admit she has a problem and get help, real help, then it's in your best interest to get support, get out and stay out.'

Skip, I very much doubt that I can get a better result than you did...i'm the sister and she sees my relationship with my brother as a threat. I can't alter that, she has her own irrational reasons. I don't think I can get a different outcome than you did in all honesty.The burden of responsibility is on the pwBPD ultimately. I'm not her therapist or mental health professional. Without professional help she has no hope of improving and she first needs to admit she needs help and stop being a burden to everyone else. I generally agree with what Witsendwife said here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338514.msg13067797#msg13067797   We need to be realistic about this not romantic imo...

[Skip]

The resource you quoted advises all people in all situations to end the relationship. One size fits all.

You may be right. Estranging your your sister in law, may make things easier for you. It may make things easier for her too.

These things often aren't reversible.

There will be collateral fallout in the comings years. People will will pick one of you when hosting events. Your access to nephews and nieces will be limited.

There will be an ongoing cold war as each of you will feel the need to explain the situation by blaming the other person.

When its a dating relationship, one partner can dump he other and be done with it.  Once there are marriages and children, the act of "dumping" is very complicated.

You are at a fork in the road. Which path you chose is critical

[JNChell]

Jareth89, your arguments and points are very compelling and they come from a genuine place. I’ve been reading this thread from the start. You would make a very good attorney, but a court of law would turn down any attempts of you telling your SIL that she has a personality disorder because the judge would know that it wouldn’t turn out well. The judge would know and understand that it isn’t your place to do that. Your brother is an adult. It’s up to him to decide what he wants to do. What you’re feeling compelled to do will create a drama triangle that will inevitably create offshoots. Basically, don’t do it. Your life will become harder and your stress levels will rise.

[Jareth89]

Skip, while I don't agree with everything that woman says, there is some good realistic advice on that site in case there is a danger of over-empathising with the pwBPD or romanticising the dark nature of the situation. Abuse is abuse, no matter the cause...especially dangerous is the brainwashing (by 3 people, they know what they are doing). The longer the brainwashing goes on, the more control they gain over him and the less chance he has of ever seeing reality. This is pure evil and calculating, I see it for what it is. My goal is not to estrange my sister in law, but how my family acts depends a lot on her behaviour and what her real intent is now that she has revealed herself (with her parents). In my opinion, she will use both my nephew and my brother as manipulation tools...we serve her every whim and we get to see them and be sure they are ok. If we don't do something she demands/wants, she removes nephew and brother and we get to worry about their welfare. Her tactics are not fully revealed yet. She knows how to hurt people.

JNChell, I appreciate your concern. I need to clarify that I'm not telling my sil that she has a PD. My aim is to tell my brother at some point about her condition, and give him articles so that he is empowered, aware and has the vision to recognise the psychological games being played on him, which enables him to regain sanity and come back to reality. He already described to me some of her bpd traits last year, but since then they have worked on him and with time he is losing more possession of his mind. It's frightening to watch. This is not unconscious behaviour on their part, it is planned, it is a game they plan to win. Sister-in-law and her parents work as a team. Brainwashing is dangerous for anyone, age doesn't come into it so the fact he is an adult means nothing. What matters is how susceptible is he to that and what the end goal is.

Of course, I need to have a guarantee that he will not relay my conversation back to his wife and I will warn him of what will happen if he does. He also needs to see a psychologist to get advice. The plan is for him to be able to confide in me and discuss bpd and the implications for his life, so that he can safely work out what to do in realistic terms. There is no certainty that my brother will ever research bpd information himself or how long it will take for him to get to that stage. Since I already know, it surely is unethical and foolhardy to keep this from him. If I didn't tell him, it plays right into their game of keeping him in the dark so they can control him. Time matters.

[JNChell]

Are you a qualified professional that is able to drop this on your brother? If you’re intent on talking to your brother, keep it about behavior. Don’t bring up BPD. Your concern is genuine. Show that. Be genuine with your brother, but come from a place that doesn’t judge his wife. That will shut it down. Your brother loves his wife regardless of what you see as right or wrong. You have to understand that. No article that you read will ever outweigh that feeling that he has for her.

If you eventually want to reach out to him eventually, you have your own work to do on how to do that. Are you up for that?

[Notwendy]

Of course, I need to have a guarantee that he will not relay my conversation back to his wife


How do you plan to get this?



 

[Skip]

Skip, while I don't agree with everything that woman says, there is some good realistic advice on that site in case there is a danger of over-empathising with the pwBPD or romanticising the dark nature of the situation.

This is her advocacy, no doubt. It is epitomized in one of her vidoes where she says "if your girlfriend key strokes your car, get rid of her".  Would your brother (or anyone's brother) have difficulty recognizing this as a problem? Would they be overly understanding? Poor baby, you had no choice but to trash my Porsche?

It's all nonsense designed to appeal to people who have been spurned by a "BPD-ish" lover. This is not you. And it wouldn't be healthy if it was.

In life, there is no danger of over-empathizing with anyone. Empathizing is the ability to understand what/how someone thinks. You've stated this as your objective.

Any psychology professional knows the difference between the terms empathize, enable, and normalize - the latter two being problematic.  

You may want to check these out:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=238014
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273744

You have a very complex issue in front of you and you have very limited tools - being a SIL (or a step-mom) are particularly difficult positions to help in situations like this. Without understanding the roles, people can very quickly be dismissed as being the proverbial step-monster or SIL from hell.

No one here will tell you to enable, and normalize. We will tell you to empathize.  Knowing the difference is huge.

We will give you advice on how to help your brother and most importantly, to know the difference between when he will be receptive and when he will be resentful.

[Jareth89]

Are you a qualified professional that is able to drop this on your brother? If you’re intent on talking to your brother, keep it about behavior. Don’t bring up BPD. Your concern is genuine. Show that. Be genuine with your brother, but come from a place that doesn’t judge his wife. That will shut it down. Your brother loves his wife regardless of what you see as right or wrong. You have to understand that. No article that you read will ever outweigh that feeling that he has for her.

JNChell, I agree with some of the above, but I already judged him and his wife over their bad behaviour and him mindlessly parroting her irrational thoughts. Accountability is important. He needs to know what others think of both his behaviour and hers. That's keeping one foot of his in reality. I'm in contact with a psychologist. I work out solutions to my own problems bearing in mind 'the rulebook' but with no obligation to follow it if I don't agree with the logic. JNChell there are many accounts of men who once they realised their wife had bpd (and understood that it was not them at fault) started to gain a different perspective on their relationship which enabled them to assess the relationship with necessary clarity. So your comment 'No article that you read will ever outweigh that feeling that he has for her' is an unreliable statement imo. You can never know what effect information will have on someone, there's too many variables,  but you can take a chance and approach from the angle of positivity.

Skip - I learned she had bpd and it broke my heart. It meant that things weren't going to just fix and return to where they were - that there was always going to be problems. At that point I realised that they were problems I couldn't resolve (I had been trying)

AskingWhy - I have known he was BPD for a few years now. It started to add up. My self-esteem increased as I knew it was not me who was the problem that he alleged

PeteWitsend - Why did I decide to leave? I read a lot about the effects of fighting on our kids and wanted to shield them from it and provide a stable role model

JNChell - I eventually came to realise that feeling bad didn't benefit my son. Moving forward has. When we realise that it isn't possible to work with the disordered other, and realise how trying will affect the kids, it becomes fairly easy to readjust. Once you make it about the kids, you'll see how much your ex makes it about her. Always keep in mind that everything is about her in her mind.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338514.msg13067797#msg13067797
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338287.msg13069464#msg13069464

Notwendy there's no guarantee, it's a calculated risk.

Knowledge has the power to put your life into perspective. There's always an opportunity for someone to succeed where others have failed.

[Notwendy]

I think you have stated your reasons to inform your brother very clearly and while others have posted their experience, it seems clear that this is what you want to do.

So what are the next steps for you? How do you plan to carry this out?

There's always an opportunity for someone to succeed where others have failed.

I hope you will post here how it goes. Sharing results would be helpful.

[Jareth89]

Skip, I've empathised and now i'm being realistic, as you likely did in your relationship. My primary concern is my brother and protecting my own wellbeing. How would you feel if your PD in laws intimated to you that you getting married/having children is a threat to their daughter's dominance? They don't give a f*ck about me...nobody matters except them and their daughter yet their daughter has had so much done for her because she happens to be married to my brother and we help him. We don't really want to help her...it's a very one-sided relationship and my family needs to protect itself from her selfish, manipulative ways. Empathy really does only go so far in terms of making something workable. You can certainly over-empathise with egocentric people...understanding the nature does not alter the behaviour or the damage. No amount of empathy alters the fact that these are damaging people who are unpleasant to be around. The world is a dark place precisely because of people like this...who can only think of themselves and act accordingly. They ruin everything they touch. I want happy families, like I thought we had, but I dunno how i'm going to get that now.

My brother got Tinkerbell instead of Wendy. There is a reason for that.

[Notwendy]

Jareth- the advice here is basically lay people sharing their own experience and knowledge. You don’t have to agree with it. Everyone here can choose on their own what to do. Through your posts- you’ve convinced me that you know what you want to do.

I think many of us would agree that a family member with BPD is a difficult and potentially destructive force in the family. The question is : once that person is a member of the family - what to do.

You are very clear about your convictions. So what’s the next step ?

[Skip]

understanding the nature does not alter the behaviour or the damage...

Correct!

The reason to want to understand someone is so you that respond to them in a way that doesn't make thinks worse - and possibly makes things somewhat better.

Another reason to want to understand someone is so that we don't have unrealistic expectations and are able to detach ourselves from the bad vibes we feel.

And one lat reason is that it helps us to look at ourselves and make sure we are not triggered and over-reacting. The way someone makes use feel is often not what they feel. As a an example, people often feel that shy people are aloof, but they generally feel inferior, not superior.

Through your posts- you’ve convinced me that you know what you want to do. You are very clear about your convictions. So what’s the next step ?

What IS the next step?

[JNChell]

His reality isn’t your’s. I’m being pragmatic when I say that you should step back and allow your brother’s reality to unfold. All you can do is be there for him. It sounds like you’re trying, or are on the cusp, of trying to manipulate his reality. I understand how important the meaning of family is to you, and we all appreciate how you want to protect your brother. The thing is, you absolutely cant do this and allow him to be his own person. We learn and grow from our bumps and cuts. The best thing that you can do for him is to be there. Redirect your love for your brother. Don’t try to manipulate his situation. It will not turn out well. Be ready for him when he comes to you. Be the light.

[Jareth89]

So the next step is telling brother that there is a reason behind the change in behaviour he/we have witnessed and it might help him to talk about it so he can better understand her situation and not be so confused about it all. He is coming over on his own this weekend so it might be a good time. I won't mention bpd but I will say that it's a pattern of behaviours connected to a disorder that she might be able to get help with. Also that his son might be affected by her behaviour but he can take steps to mitigate this.

I don't know how her parents will eventually factor into this. Even if my brother stands up to her and sets down boundaries, if this makes her unhappy I wonder if she will draft her parents in. I already saw her mum being passive aggressive towards him on one occasion and the father makes me uneasy. I don't think I know one half of it. From the outside these are very respectable people in professions, we thought we could trust them but now i'm not sure. If my brother doesn't talk to me about what is going on, we can't know how dangerous this is. I don't know why he hasn't opened up to me because it's not as if she will ever know.

JNChell - I don't agree with the principle of watching someone suffer and not give them information on why. How many years do you want me to wait to pass this information onto him? I have stated my reasons for this a few posts back. It's not your brother and you are not connected to this situation. I appreciate your different point of view but the outcome is not one you will have to deal with. I don't see the controversy with what I am going to do. How many years did it take you to realise your partner was bpd?

[Enabler]

He is coming over on his own this weekend so it might be a good time. I won't mention bpd but I will say that it's a pattern of behaviours connected to a disorder that she might be able to get help with. Also that his son might be affected by her behaviour but he can take steps to mitigate this. 

Him - What's the disorder?

You - A personality disorder

Him - What personality disorder?

You - BPD

Him - Quick google on phone... she's not suicidal and doesn't self harm

You - ___________________

Him - What is it with you? You've got it in for her and she's just trying to do right by everyone, why can't my family just be happy for me and support me?


How do you plan on making this revelation? Lets run through some scenarios.

Enabler

[Enabler]

that she might be able to get help with

Also this is probably not worth mentioning since it's somewhat false hope. Unless his W is in and out of rehab or perpetually making suicide attempts I see little or no incentive from her perspective to actively seek help. What life low is she experiencing which might prompt her to reconsider her entire reality and decide her way of processing information is utterly broken and she should enter into long term costly and emotionally challenging cognitive therapy... not least because she has 2 very keen supporters in the form of her parents.

Will you also be informing your brother that because of the above point, should he choose to do anything like proactively extracting himself from the relationship he's likely to spend a great deal of time in a high conflict divorce, potentially fighting for access to his children and maybe even have years of parental alienation to contend with. Given your points about him needing to know this information, I think he needs to know this information as well to fully understand his reality.

[Panda39]

To go back to the title of your post, could it be that your parents aren't turning a blind eye but are letting their adult son navigate his own marriage?

I hear that you want to protect your brother but I'll be honest, I think you will be creating conflict by trying to "help"...you are jumping on and creating a triangle by diving into your brother's marriage.

Karpman Triange...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

If it was me I would focus on your relationship with your brother, not what is going on between him and his wife.  Stick around here learn the tools that can help so you can share them if he confides in you.

I know why you want to talk with him, I truly do but it has been my experience that trying to control other people doesn't work and can make things worse...creating conflict with others and frustration/anger in our inability to get others to do what we want.  You could be putting yourself in an adversarial position..."you" against "them".  Remember they are married, they are a "unit".

I know what is going on with your brother is uncomfortable, but could you accept what is and let your brother negotiate this in his own time, in his own way?  Can you learn to get comfortable with your discomfort and just be his sister?

Panda39

[Notwendy]

From my own observations of these thread(s), multiple posters ( including me) have stated similar things, reported similar results, from inserting ourselves into the Karpman triangle with family members who have BPD.

But the result here is that Jareth has stayed firm with her decision to inform her brother.

From my own experience ( and this may help with the brother too)- all we can offer is advice. The other person may or may not agree with it.

Sometimes natural consequences is the best "teacher". This doesn't mean we don't intervene when someone is in immediate physical danger. If your friend is drunk, don't let them drive, take the car keys away from them. But if your friend is involved romantically with someone you see concerning traits and they don't- then you can offer advice. However, if they don't want to take your advice, then the only other way for them to see the situation may be for them to experience it and decide for themselves.

This applies to everyone- including Jareth- you don't have to take our advice, you can proceed with your plan and see what happens. Likewise your brother has the choice to take your advice or not.

One example with my BPD mom is over money. She married young and never worked. ( normal for her era). She had no idea of the value of a dollar or how to manage money. She overspent and Dad didn't say no to her, in fact, he went into debt from meeting her wishes. When he got sick, I got concerned about my parents' finances being managed by BPDmom and tried to intervene- in only a helpful manner, to help with the management. You can imagine how that went.

So back to Janeth's position: Did I know better than they did about managing money? Yes ( do you think you know the BPD picture in the family better? Yes).  Did I feel it was the right thing to do to inform my parents? Yes. Could the possible consequences of the money mismanagement be serious? Yes.

Did they take my advice? No.

What happened? Mom mismanaged money. Eventually she realized that the money she had was all she had, now that Dad wasn't putting more of it in the bank. It took this experience to teach her that her money is limited. Eventually I heard her say for the first time ever "oh this is too expensive, I won't buy it" when wanting something she didn't need.

What's this got to do with the original issue of the posts?

When we offer advice, it's often with the other person's best interest at heart, but they may or may not take it. As hard as it is to let them learn on their own through the natural consequences, unless it is immediately dangerous, sometimes they will learn it better this way.

[Jareth89]

Panda39 I should clarify that my parents are talking to me about this now. They were not before because they were just 'burying bad news'. We are talking about this now since this does affect our family.

[Pilpel]

jareth, I can’t remember if I mentioned this in the previous thread.  I tried to warn my brother not to marry SIL, because her behavior was disturbing even before they got married.  All the things I saw as off at that time I can now define as being signs of NPD.   I didn’t understand what was going on at the time.  My brother dismissed my concerns and then told his fiancé, and she has held that against me all this time.  There would have been another excuse to treat me like dirt if she didn’t have that.  But either way it blew up in my face to get involved.

 I had to take a step back and ask why he chose the path he chose.   He treated his wife like the center of the universe and sometimes at the expense of me or my parents.  I didn’t want this for his life - of my life!  But when I stepped back and looked at the whole picture, I could see the seeds early on.  For reasons that are not entirely my parents fault we were both coddled and regularly invalidated by our parents.  My mom had some BPD traits, though she is way nicer than SIL.  My parents were overprotective, and We were discouraged from making mistakes in our lives. 

My first relationship -when I was very young-  was also with an abusive narcissist, and I remember how impressed I was with the narcs confidence and rage.  My family was not very emotionally expressive, so the rage seemed kind of cool.  My brother tried to protect me from that relationship.  But being around a narcissist brought up my own resentments toward my family, because I felt like my family was rigid and. Wanted me to conform to what they wanted me to be, and I was resentful of my brother’s intervention. After I broke up with the narc, years later I had to examine why I was attracted to the narc.  He initially appealed to my own sense of exceptionalism.  Initially his friendship was so validating, that it increased my loneliness when I would break up with him.  I see now that this is love bombing. 

I was very careful about what I said to my brother for years after.  And when we’ve visited with the whole family I feel like there has been an understanding that I have to be careful about what I say to him when she’s around.  Only this year - now that his wife is threatening divorce and saying bad things about him behind his back- has he started to speak openly about how difficult his marriage is.  And it has only been since then that I have felt free to speak openly to him.  I haven’t spoken to him since going NC with his wife, but a couple months ago I told him that I loved him, wanted the best for him, and that I’m available if he needs any help. So I feel like my brother and I were at a good place before I went NC with his wife. 

I think I said this before, but if you feel you can share information about BPD and NPD, it may help point your brother in a direction that would give him understanding and tools.  But otherwise keep on your path.  And fill your life with good things. Don’t let your brother’s problems and your brother’s wife suck joy out of your life and take way time you could be spending with people that make you happy. 

There were some hard but ultimately positive lessons I learned from my years of interacting with my SIL.  My family was always very passive.  And I have a strong tendency to be a people pleaser.  Early on in this relationship with SiL I always said yes to her because I knew that ‘no’ would lead me down a confusing maze.  I also hoped that by saying yes she would see that I wasn’t as bad as she first believed.  I eventually learned that nothing I did or said made an impact on her.  Nothing I did was ever enough.  I learned to understand how she manipulated and created her own reality. I learned that facts are not always what people say they are.  That a person can cry victim and really be the worst perpetrator.   I learned to say no and set boundaries.  And to respond to hostility with a cool head.   There’s value to all of that. 

[JNChell]

jareth, what else do you need to hear? Boundaries are a big thing around here. Don’t violate your brother’s boundaries. His marriage has boundaries. Tread lightly, or push him away.  If he needs you, he will come to you.

[Jareth89]

There were some hard but ultimately positive lessons I learned from my years of interacting with my SIL.  My family was always very passive.  And I have a strong tendency to be a people pleaser.  Early on in this relationship with SiL I always said yes to her because I knew that ‘no’ would lead me down a confusing maze.  I also hoped that by saying yes she would see that I wasn’t as bad as she first believed.  I eventually learned that nothing I did or said made an impact on her.  Nothing I did was ever enough.  I learned to understand how she manipulated and created her own reality. I learned that facts are not always what people say they are.  That a person can cry victim and really be the worst perpetrator.   I learned to say no and set boundaries.  And to respond to hostility with a cool head.   There’s value to all of that. 

Pilpel thanks for your input here, the whole post was interesting to read especially since you have experience of the same scenario as me. I can fully relate to the above and my honest concern is that I wonder whether she actually wants to get along with me or not, and whether she has always felt resentment towards me despite outward appearances. She is extremely covert which makes her more dangerous. I never know fully what her intentions are and she ensures that my brother insulates me from this knowledge. She is a very altered person and I wonder how someone could be so different (including her parents) overnight when she has been with my brother for around 10yrs...

[Pilpel]

Hi Jareth, I understand that you’ve had feelings, impressions from your SIL and her family that have left you feeling uneasy.  Is there a post where you give examples of an interaction.  If not, can you describe an interaction that made a think she’s borderline? 

[Jareth89]

Hi Jareth, I understand that you’ve had feelings, impressions from your SIL and her family that have left you feeling uneasy.  Is there a post where you give examples of an interaction.  If not, can you describe an interaction that made a think she’s borderline? 

My brother has spoken to me about her mood swings, sensitivity to criticism, always has to be right. Son (3yrs) has been overheard saying she is bossy. Divorce threats to brother. Last year, due to a change in my own circumstances, I couldn't visit her house as often. Most people would just say 'Hey I didn't see you in a while, what's up?', but she derailed after that and was passive aggressive when she came over to visit me/my parents, struggled to make eye contact at times and snapped at me/was uncivil whenever we would see each other from then on. It was not the interaction I was used to. On one occasion my brother came over with her and he was sitting at the table and he complimented me on what I was wearing. I thanked him and looked at her (sitting next to him) and she noticeably leaned into him (as if his compliment meant I was a threat to her/stealing him), her face was white as a sheet and she had an empty glare in her eyes...what is probably referred to as the 'bpd stare'. She has a need to be the centre of attention. We visited her house after a short-ish absence last year and there was evidence of hoarding in the living room and it looked like a tornado went off in her bedroom just before we arrived, there were clothes strewn everywhere. When I saw her in the house she was again white as a sheet (stress response) and motionless with a blank stare. She has done this in front of me on a number of occasions and it's always prompted by something related to her sense of security. She has stated in the past on occasions that she can't be alone and we know this to be true. When she wants attention she complains of ailments in a childish voice (I have a cold, I have a sore shoulder etc). There is controlling behaviour in relation to my brother - isolation, clearly making him feel uncomfortable talking to me in her presence. Impoverished empathy. She plays the victim when she is perpetrator, rejects blame. She has a desire to devalue me.

So I would say mainly - her unusual response to compliments from my brother (fear of our closeness), can never be alone, mood swings (reported by brother), lack of empathy, and what is clearly a stress response (white face/blank stare) to perceived threats to her security/fear of abandonment. I don't believe that stress response is seen anywhere other than bpd/traits. When it happens it basically looks like the fear of god is in her and the same time she has disappeared mentally - blank look in eyes.

[Harri]

Hi Jareth. 

Have you looked at any of the tools or communication strategies to figure out how you want to approach this conversation with your brother?  Do you want to develop an outline with which to work?

[Jareth89]

Does anybody understand how the people with bpd traits can keep these traits completely hidden and then almost suddenly it becomes blatantly obvious they have a problem? As if they are on their best behaviour for maybe 5+ years and then suddenly the behavioural abnormalities become obvious?

[Panda39]

Hi Jareth,

Part of it is we don't know what we don't know.  If we have never experienced a person with BPD we don't really understand what we are looking at.  I think it also depends on how functional or not someone with BPD is, and it is also because people with BPD tend to show their behaviors to those closest to them.  My Partner's ex is extremely conscious of how she appears to outsiders, and can manage for periods of time to appear normal.  But the longer you know her the more you realize something is off.

My partner did not see BPD when he first met his wife, but knowing what we know now some of the signs were there.  In his case he was married about 10 years with some dysfunction.  Then in 2000 his uBPDxw's mom died (the ultimate form of abandonment which is what folks with BPD most fear) and all hell broke loose.  We think that mom was helping my partner's ex keep the worst of her behaviors in check.  When mom died her safety net was gone/her manager was gone and things spun out of control.

I had been on these boards several years and we hired a new boss, even knowing what I know I didn't recognize she was a Narcissist for over a year.  She was charming, confident, funny...until she wasn't...then the projection, gaslighting, 15 minute huddles became an hour long and and hour long staff meeting became 4 hours long (we were her captive audience!) It was the "Boss" show.

How have things been going?

Panda39

[Jareth89]

Panda39, I cant report back yet since the conversation has not taken place yet between me and my brother due to busy schedules. However it will occur within the next fortnight so I will post on how that goes down...

[Panda39]

Sounds good keep us posted. 

[Longterm]

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LT.