Question re guilt and its effect on pwBPD

[Witz_End]

This is a general question, but spins off my thread here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338831.0

It's a matter of understanding the guilt cycle and how it plays out.  More importantly, how to work past or through it.

I know that pwBPD's experience strong guilt and internal self-devaluation, just as they project and subject others to.  Likewise, it seems admitting wrongs, taking ownership of things, and apologizing are difficult for them.

My wife is that way and the way I describe it is that it is like a see-saw: when I am painted black, the guilt is projected on me and she essentially idealized herself.  Then, shifting to idealizing me, she voices how horrible she is as a wife and how amazed she is I've stuck with her "despite [her]  ."  She never voices *why* she is "horrible" or *what* her " " is, so it's an indication of self-devaluing and guilt, but never actual voiced ownership of whatever she blames herself for.

I am sure fear of abandonment and associated fragile trust is at the center of not being able to come out with anything.  "If I own it / confess it, will he/she leave?  Will I be vulnerable to that threat?  Or the threat of voicing it causing more damage?"

So, it's held in.  Without putting it out there for forgiveness of others, it adds up.  It becomes more and more fodder for negative self-talk during periods of self devaluing and I would guess that the more guilt is carried inside, the worse the PBD can get.

Question 1:  How true does this sound and what input or observations do people have about the guilt factors and how it affects or amplifies things?

Looking at that, I look at an aspect of my situation (see thread link for details), which is that this person who WAS trustworthy and had integrity no longer does.  It's a "fib or half truth becomes a lie and the lie grows into a monster" scenario" played out with two things, I believe.  Being a person who had prided herself on not lying, she stuck herself in a position and is, I believe, living with that on her conscience.  This coincides with the worsening of her BPD over the past few months and a lot of damage and aot of projection.

I'm in a position where, to move forward, it is an obstacle.  It does need to be faced - for me and the relationship, but also - I believe - for her, because even before this I'd sensed she's so weighed down inside with self-blame for things held in and never let out.  Yet, her trust in me is very low, some due to my own actions and reactions, but I think a large amount is projection (including the projection of "NPD" which came our in what stopped short of full accusation, but obviously reveals her view).

Question 2:  Especially factoring in her NPD projection and really fragile trust, but generally also the mechanisms that make it difficult to open pwBPD's up to seeing and voicing wrongs or dishonesty they don't want to face... how do you work past this to address something that has grown and grown to threaten the relationship (a self-fulfilling prophesy)?

I'll save you reading by summing really briefly in a reply below, if it would help to have an idea of how I am applying it.

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[Witz_End]

Very very distilled version leaving out unconventional details / factors:

- 7 years ago, almost leaving me for another man, she downplayed how it came to be and used legal tapdance to paint a deceptive picture without outright lying
-  Months later, I suspected and asked her direct questions.  Faced with the choice of showing the picture as having been deceptively framed, I could tell (she has tells) she lied to protect something.
-  When asked about this, she cuts all questions off with rage to suppress them and the guilt of "you don't trust me."  It is blatant "I'm not going to let you in on that" pushing away / suppression.

Fast forward...

-  Situation replays itself, same guy.  There is not so much deception about when and how it kicked back up, but I saw her tells emerge again when I suspected she had spoken to our kids.  It is clear that she is hiding what she has told them about him.

It is also clear that in both these iterations, they began because while he does reach out to her from time to time, these two times coincided with a period of splitting me black.  With a negative view of me and the relationship, the condition was set for doing whatever she wanted letting that lead to infidelity, justified by the skewed perception.  Which later changes, of course, leading to guilt... which leads to deception to protect the guilt... which all piles on top, eroding my trust, but also weighing in her and worsening her condition (I believe).

Yet, she justifies it, denies it, and protects the hell out of it, only doing more damage.  With things at a critical point, there is obviously a lot I (and our relationship) need her to see and allow us to work through.

Those who have actually read threads have probably seen how much I've been trying to process this.  As general blow ups seem to have subsided a little, there is still the weight of this.

[hopeful1073]

I am relatively new here, but I definitely can relate to this issue.

In my experience, the longer my BFBPD holds in the lie and the more it grows over time, the worse our interactions become.  He is more quick to become enraged, he projects on me and inevitably accuses me of lying about a host of things that could not be further from the truth.

When he finally gives in and tells me (at least part of) the truth, I can almost see some of the weight lifted and the rage dissipate.  I think he has a hard time admitting that he lied because of shame and my anticipated reaction.  He has told me on many occasions that "he used to be a good person," which makes me think that the lies/guilt are hard for him to process after the fact.  And I am not surprised that he is worried about my reaction.  I have become very frustrated about the frequent lying and, before I had any idea that he might have BPD, there were times when I told him I would leave if he could not find a way to be in an open/transparent relationship with me.

For me, the way I address it is I do not let the lies slide.  I am sure that I am approaching this the wrong way, and I am still trying to learn how to handle these situations, but I am a very matter of fact person and I am not afraid to tell him that things do not add up or that I know he has lied.  He does not care for this approach, but quite frankly, it is the only way for me to feel protective of myself.  I have started to tone down my reactions when he finally does tell me the truth.  This does not mean that I do not express my disappointment - I oftentimes need to remind him that I am allowed to be upset or angry about the breaches in trust and I am not going to ignore these feelings.  However, when I do tell him that I am upset about what he has done, I keep my comments to a minimum and tell him that he needs to give me time to process the continued transgressions.

My BFBPD is in therapy and I have encouraged him to talk with his therapist about the lies and he seems to be doing this.  Although I do not pry into his discussions with his therapist, my sense is that she is giving him tools that he can use to broach some of these issues.  I am hopeful that the longer he is in therapy, he will stop/reduce the lying and, if he does lie, that he will be more willing to tell me about it so we can work through it.

I do not know if any of this is helpful, but I wanted to share because I, too, am facing this issue.  I look forward to seeing what others have to say on this topic.

[Witz_End]

Stop Walking on Eggshells has a passage that addresses what I'm talking about above.  Stumbling on it while going back through part of the book, I figured I'd quote it here.

It's a quote from John Bradshaw's Healing the Shame that Binds You:

"Toxic shame is experiences as the all-pervasive sense that I am flawed and defective and a human being.  It is no longer an emotion that signals our limits; it is a state of being, a core identity.  Toxic shame gives you a sense of worthlessness, the feeling of being isolated, empty, and alone in a complete sense.  Exposure to oneself lies at the heart of toxic shame.  A shame-based person will guard against exposing his inner self to others, but more significantly, he will guard against exposing himself to himself."

Eggshells then lists a few things Bradshaw sees shame as being at the root of:  rage, criticism/blame, caretaking/helping, codependency, addictive behavior, excessive people pleasing, eating disorders.  Then, the book comments that the all-or-nothing of pwBPD can lead to the all of consumption by the shame or the nothing of denying to themselves and others it even exists.

My take on this is that shame (I mention as guilt above) is really central in BPD.  When you think about the above in terms of the behaviors, it explains a lot.

It also speaks to question 1 in my original post above in that it seems to say pretty clearly that guilt/shame *can* intensify BPD symptoms.  Applied to my situation, this would partially explain the sense that things have intensified and spun out more as she had felt guilt in the wake of her latest round with this guy.

But then the application of question 2.  If guilt/shame is a root and brings up a lot of those mechanisms and even rage to push people away from it ("A shame-based person will guard against exposing his inner self to others, but more significantly, he will guard against exposing himself to himself."  "Denying yo themselves and others it even exists")... how do we work past that to discuss things intertwined with that shame inside, especially big things undoubtedly feeding a lot of guilt that contrasts strongly with the person's self-image ("I am loyal, I am honest")?