I could use a lot of help remaing cool during coparenting counseling

[Newyoungfather]

Hello Everyone,
My uexbpd knows my weakness, all she has to do is lie about something or purposely incite me and my son and I get extremely agitated in co parenting counseling.  She denies everything I bring up and it sets me off, I think she purposely does it.  I really need help on how to remain cool through all of this, are there anyways people can think of that has worked with them.

[formflier]

Perhaps we can work on ways to bring up things that are harder to "deny".

Can you give us a couple examples of what you brought up and what was said in return?

Bring up your point of view that you guys disagree on events.     (what happens if she denies it?)

Then sit there and be quiet for a while...while it sinks in.

Best,

FF

[Newyoungfather]

When she denies it, the counselor will be like oh well I don't think she is a person that would do that and I let loose.  She knows how to manipulate very badly.

[GaGrl]

What kind of situations is the counselor saying that to? Specifics are helpful for us to help you construct responses.

[formflier]

What kind of situations is the counselor saying that to? Specifics are helpful for us to help you construct responses.

Exactly...

And...many pwBPD like to "waste" time in counseling "debating" things which are really matters of opinion..or are not "provable". 

They do this rather than deal with core issues.

So...even with the little information I have, I would suggest instead of debating..  ask this.

"How do we have an effective relationship with such different points of view?"

"How can we bring accountability and "verifiability" to situations like this?  I'm willing to try."


Best,

FF

[Newyoungfather]

Right now she is saying that I always want to take things to court, its true I filed modifications and contempt petitions because of her behavior.  Right now we are in the next custody modification, she is giving me an offer but its soo little to the point of insulting, my L and I rejected it and now she says that all I want to do is to take things to court and not work out an agreement.
2nd, she is trying to take weekends away from me and when I say I like my every other weekend she is saying why, what do you do on the weekends that you enjoy the weekends, I feel I don't have to answer those questions.

[worriedStepmom]

Right now she is saying that I always want to take things to court, its true I filed modifications and contempt petitions because of her behavior.  Right now we are in the next custody modification, she is giving me an offer but its soo little to the point of insulting, my L and I rejected it and now she says that all I want to do is to take things to court and not work out an agreement.
2nd, she is trying to take weekends away from me and when I say I like my every other weekend she is saying why, what do you do on the weekends that you enjoy the weekends, I feel I don't have to answer those questions.

"I have had to go to court in the past because the court order was not being followed.  It's important to me that when we have agreement, we both follow it.  This ensures consistency and stability for our son and shows that we respect the court system, and that we respect each other as parents."

"I have also filed modifications with the court when our negotiations seemed to break down.  It is clear we have different ideas on how much parenting time I should have, and when we cannot agree then the only option is to have a third party - the judge - decide."

What you do with your parenting time is none of her business.  Instead of saying that, turn it back on her.  You could ask "Why do you want to know?" or "How does that impact this conversation or decision?" or "What does that matter?" 

You can go a long way with just asking them questions about why they are demanding certain things (and then ask a Why or How question about their response, etc).  It usually doesn't take very long for the disordered thinking to show up in their answers.

[Newyoungfather]

very good worriedstepmom, right now I feel like i'm the one with bpd the way how upset I get with the lies she tells.

[worriedStepmom]

My therapist told me to read Randi Kreger's book "Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder".   (I had already read Stop Walking on Eggshells.) It is helping me a little.

[mart555]

yeah seriously, you need to learn to stay calm and gray rock.   She'll walk all over you otherwise.  You must demonstrate that you are the stable one.  Do not get into these games.   Yes the lies she says can piss you off, and they will, but try to boil inside and not let anything escape when you are in public like this.   Find something to let that anger escape, you cannot let it build up (go for a swim?  talk a walk and enjoy nature?)

Remember this: you cannot reason with a BPD, no matter the amount of logic or facts that you use.  Stop trying.   

[Newyoungfather]

Yup I agree, I her get a hold of me and then she wins.  I am going to take deep breathes and wait a few seconds to respond each time.

[worriedStepmom]

Would it also help to have a pad of paper and a pen with you?

You can pretend to take notes while actually writing in all capital letters "LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR LIAR".  I've used this trick before to let out some of my emotions without others seeing.

[Newyoungfather]

Yes the pen and pad will work.

[livednlearned]

I get extremely agitated in co parenting counseling

What options do you have for ending it?

Can you describe what extreme agitation looks like in your situation?

She denies everything I bring up and it sets me off, I think she purposely does it.

She most certainly does. She is fighting for something and that means her opponent must be in a one-down position. She can lie and you're losing, she can set you off and you're losing. 

I really need help on how to remain cool through all of this

How bad is the agitation?

Who sets the agenda for the coparenting sessions? How does it work?

[GaGrl]

I'm wondering not do not about the agenda for co-parenting counseling but also how to address the dismissiveness of the counselor.

 "I need you to take what I bring up seriously. This are the type  of issues that led to ending the relationship, and it's the same issues that can affect our co-parenting. "

Thoughts?

[Newyoungfather]

I remember that the therapist said we can talk to her anytime and could schedule a time alone with her, I'm just remembering this now. I really want to discuss and talk about why I have filed for custody and court complaints, the last session was terrible with the therapist telling me I am hurting my son by filing all these court actions.  I want to write an email to the therapist and talk about why I had to file but I could use everyone's help.

[worriedStepmom]

Why does the therapist think that your court actions are bad for your son?  Your son is a preschooler - he shouldn't know about them at all.

Have you won most of your court actions or lost them?

[Newyoungfather]

I have won everytime.  She has fought everything. Therapist says our son can feel the tension. I called the therapist and we have a one on one session, I am bringing the facts and the court results up with her, I have the evidence.

[formflier]

I hope the session is not "combative".

There is a strong "right/wrong" streak in your threads, that I'm pretty sure shows up in the way you "present" in co-parenting.  I'm very doubtful it's helping you.

Best,

FF

[Newyoungfather]

@formflyer, I get very upset when she lies, I don't know if that's combative or not, I tend to stick with the facts.

[formflier]

I'm all for the facts...  I'm an ESTJ..so "judgments" about what we know and don't know are right up my alley.

That being said...

The way you "present" all of that really matters.

#1  "she is a liar and I can prove it.."

vs

#2  "Oh my..there seems to be a big disconnect.  Help me understand how your point of view aligns with these documents."

Now..imagine for a minute you are a counselor or other "decider" that doesn't know either one of you.

What do you think about both people when situation 1 happens?

What do you think about both people when situation 2 happens?

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

I get very upset when she lies, I don't know if that's combative or not

Yes. That would be considered combative.

The counselor is not looking for who is right/wrong.

She is looking for signs of emotional regulation, most likely.

[david]

Can you show how you tried to resolve the issues without court and it never worked ? Showing a willingness to handle issues outside of court is what co parent counseling is supposed to help with, I believe.
I had court order co parent counseling. It was ordered for 10 months. The first meeting, the counselor set the ground rules. By then I was no longer trying to prove I was right and ex was lying. My approach changed to one of finding solutions to my exs' complaints instead. By the third meeting exs' complaints became so outlandish the counselor realized where the problem was. I was still finding solutions and ex simply disagreed and offered no solutions. He looked at me and asked if I thought going there for ten months would produce anything positive. I explained the things that were going on in the meetings were the same things I was dealing with for as long as I could remember and things never got resolved. He then said I didn't need to go anymore. I questioned him because it was court ordered. He stated he would write a letter to the judge explaining things. I thanked him for his services and left. I don't know if ex still had to go or not.
 
I always expect ex to lie and cause problems. When she doesn't I am pleasantly surprised. When she shows kindness I get nervous. That doesn't happen much.

[formflier]

She is looking for signs of emotional regulation, most likely.

LnL makes a massive point here.  I hope you can take some time to reflect on how this point could be (most likely is) much more important than "proving" right or wrong.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

What judges and coparenting counselors and parenting coordinators want to see is who is the adult. They know that someone (or both partners) are driving conflict because you're both there, using their services.

The key to getting out of the conflict is to present yourself as a problem-solver, which is how the judge, counselor, and coordinator perceive themselves. You have to be more like them and less like your ex.

To be a problem solver, you have to have regulated emotions. It's hard to solve problems when you feel triggered.

This isn't to say that your ex isn't provoking or initiating or whatever, only to say that even if she is, the judge, counselor, or coordinator is looking to see if the target can stay regulated and focus on solutions.

Otherwise, you are both high-conflict people and they'll treat you as equally culpable.

[ForeverDad]

Right now we are in the next custody modification, she is giving me an offer but its soo little to the point of insulting, my L and I rejected it and now she says that all I want to do is to take things to court and not work out an agreement.

Potential response:  This offer did not address the concerns I had expressed in my court filing.  What I filed in court was already expressed to her beforehand at various time without reaching agreement.  She already knows where I stand, my position hasn't changed.

2nd, she is trying to take weekends away from me and when I say I like my every other weekend she is saying why, what do you do on the weekends that you enjoy the weekends, I feel I don't have to answer those questions.

Potential response:  Courts have alternating weekends as a default in most orders because they recognize the children generally benefit from regular time with each parent.  This approach allows each parent to have both weekends with the children as well as weekends "off" so they're able to care for other matters unrelated to parenting.  With alternating weekends I can plan in advance for weekend outings, family trips and other activities which are more practical when I have 2 or 3 days over a weekend.

Can you show (provide documentation) how you tried to resolve the issues without court and it never worked ? Showing a willingness to handle issues outside of court is what co parent counseling is supposed to help with, I believe.
I had court order co parent counseling... By then I was no longer trying to prove I was right and ex was lying. My approach changed to one of finding solutions to my ex's complaints instead. By the third meeting ex's complaints became so outlandish the counselor realized where the problem was. I was still finding solutions and ex simply disagreed and offered no solutions.

What judges and coparenting counselors and parenting coordinators want to see is who is the adult. They know that someone (or both partners) are driving conflict because you're both there, using their services.

The key to getting out of the conflict is to present yourself as a problem-solver, which is how the judge, counselor, and coordinator perceive themselves. You have to be more like them and less like your ex.

To be a problem solver, you have to have regulated emotions. It's hard to solve problems when you feel triggered...

Otherwise, you are both (seen as) high-conflict people and they'll treat you as equally culpable.

Your ex is likely very expert at manipulating her narrative, posturing herself as victim and you as unreasonable or worse, she probably had her whole life with you mastering that skill.  Your task is to deflect her emotionally manipulative claims (which she presents as her facts) and focus on properly describing the issue(s) and presenting solutions with wording likely to be agreeable to the court.  Peer support here is excellent for helping you to both present yourself as stable as well as a problem-solver.

Our member david above has mentioned how he had a list of issues and solutions.  He got them all except for the last one where he asked for full custody.  While it made sense, courts are very reluctant to make major shifts from joint custody unless prior orders kept failing.