Part 2 Parentification of an adult... if that's a thing

[Enabler]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339046.0

What's the difference in weaponizing and a boundary?

What's the difference between weaponizing and a "tool"?

You know you what's about to happen..right?

FF - Okay so without going down a rabbit hole of semantics, I see a weapon as something I might attack with, like a dagger (yes a dagger could be used for defence as well), vs a tool which is used with care and precision to correct something or make something better / work / function. My intention is not to take myself to the +1 position, to consume all the fruits of my own labour, my intention is to take myself back to 0 and hold that position.

Empath - since I am still living in the family home despite her pursuing a divorce we have not yet agreed financial split. As far as asset split, 60/40 has been batted around 2 years ago, I have more cash savings under my control than she does. In Jul 2017 I suggested to her that she come up with a budget and I set up a direct debit for that amount each month. She was almost in tears saying she couldn't do that, so that went nowhere. At the time I figured since she was suggesting I was financially controlling, the budget idea was a good one which would give her more control and responsibility, I could see how it was demeaning for her to come and ask for money... seems it wasn't as bad as having to take responsibility for a budget...

Cat - I'm doing alright actually. I have a bit of paranoia going on but trying to ground myself in evidence... just because you're paranoid doesn't mean no one is out to kill you. I struggle with the pettiness of the whole thing, like important information about her family and our friends that no longer comes to me and I think "why on earth do you have to be so petty about this stuff?". I definitely miss the intimate connection with someone. Regarding the kids, I don't know what the long term impacts are going to be for them. They don't see a loving and caring relationship as an example and that does make me sad... that said I am not sure many of their peers see loving and caring relationships either. The conflict around them is minimal, she avoids and I try to avoid rhetorical arguments or rising to over reactions. We're both capable of spending time with the kids together and on our own, we occasionally eat together as a family and in many respects have a surface level functioning relationship and relatively normal family life... but under the surface that's clearly not the case.

Enabler  

[Enabler]

To put some meat on the bones around money this is roughly the split of where our money goes:

Mortgage capital from Enablers account- 23%
Household expenses from Enablers account - 44% (Majority of groceries, Cars, Petrol, All utilities and local taxes, transport to and from work, holidays)
Enablers personal spending - 6% (My personal spending, gifts, spending on home repairs that I couldn't differentiate from general internet spending, family meals out)
Enabler W income and transfers from Enabler - 26% (would guess 15-20% groceries, kids clothes, her clothes, some gifts, some trips away for her and her and the kids... other)

[Notwendy]

Kind of sounds like when teen age girl dates "bad boy". Parents disapprove and she defies them "but I loove him".

Meanwhile, parents pay the bills, keep house... teen age girl doesn't realize the full adult aspect of relationships because she isn't an adult yet.

Meanwhile, teen romance is fueled by their frustrations- "we can't be together all the time because my mean parents are obstacles. They have rules. Waaaaah. ". Teen can paint "bad boy" white and parents "black". "My Dad is so mean. He gave me a curfew waaaaah." While Bad Boy takes the benefits " Yeah your Dad is mean but I love you baby" ( but Bad Boy pays no bills and has no adult responsibilities in this).

Parents keep the rules while enduring moody teen angst at them. They know (or at least hope) that teen age girl will grow up and this won't persist.

But with BPD, I don't know. Seems like your wife and OM are having their teen romance while you - because she sees you as the obstacle to their being together, are in the bad guy position.

[formflier]

Enabler,

Who is your relationship believes and says that you use money abusively?  Where did that idea come from?

Who in your relationship believes and says money is a weapon?  Where did that idea come from?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Notwendy... yes yes yes

[formflier]

Notwendy... yes yes yes

Parents of teens (such as Notwendy's example) that continue to "enable" their teen behavior usually have teens that grow up to be?

Parents of teens (such as Notwendy's example) that allow teens to experience the fullness of the consequences of their choices usually have teens that grow up to be?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

FF... so, I have always had a reputation amongst my friend as being tight, or a bit of a skinflint. This has perpetuated through all friendship groups because I see things 'differently' than other people. I have very very good delayed gratification skills, I did economics at university and work in finance... I'm the polar opposite to the instant gratification society I see around me. I work hard, I save up, then I buy quality and value. I think it's safe to say that I have spent more money than any one of my friends, but I do it in a different way. I have a large home, I have nice things, BUT, I forgo things that my peers wouldn't think twice about dropping £100-£200 on. I fix things rather than throw them away. I ponder purchases for months sometimes even years until all my ducks are lined up. I was speaking to a broker contact last week. He was telling me how dire his situation is after being out of work for 6 months or so... he'd lived life so on the edge he'd got a £700k mortgage which is about 60% LTV, £70k on credit cards and his wife had just got a loan through her company for £60k to tide them over... 3 kids in private school and a £10k a month cash burn... I AM NOT THAT GUY. I spend wisely, I'm not impulsive and I can can and will absorb FOMO like water off a ducks back. I hate money being wasted.

Money for me are choice tokens... if you have it you can choose things, if you don't you have less choices. I'm not greedy as such but I do like to know that I have choice and I do like security. e.g. I would like to pay down the mortgage as quickly as possible because my industry is a gravy train that will end and I should be making hay whilst the sun shines. I don't aspire to a bigger house as others might think.

It's kinda a weird reputation which I humour but my W takes seriously as I say no to her impulseivity. I think she would rather me be the weird one rather than her be seen as irresponsible. Her father is VERY cautious with money and him and I are very aligned. Funnily enough I was looking something up today, the day after I told my W that I thought she had BPD in July 2017 she wrote me this message:

"Lastly, if we get chance to talk again at some point, I guess I am questioning one thing. When I first met you at uni, before I exhibited any unacceptable behaviour, you were extremely focussed on tidiness and financial security. I would say that it was noticeable and uncharacteristic for a guy of that age. You were very controlled and when I look back, not ever properly relaxed about stuff. And that was definitely there when I first met you. I guess it is kind of irrelevant. It just strikes me that your need to control cannot just be attributable to me messing up your boundaries."

I've given up JADEing with my peers about my view on money, they will believe what they want to believe. I have a bottle of Krug Champagne given to me as a gift. It sits on my wine rack and has done for the last 6 years. My peers come round and say "why don't you just drink it?" like I'm some sort of weirdo for not drinking a bottle of champagne that's worth £130. I'm personally waiting for a special occasion. I think they'd have just drunk it on a Tuesday night then rocked on to the next fleeting experience.  

Enabler

[formflier]

We are very similar, although I suspect you take it "to the next level", much like my Father and Grandfather.  Very tight...would think things through big time.  Very conservative.

I have a streak in my of "going all in" when something feels right. 

So...drop $80k on a townhome because my analysis showed that even if I tried really really hard...I doubt I would loose money.  Ended up with a net of around $16k profit after 5ish months and also figured out that if I had been smart enough to buy it "at the courthouse steps" (vice through a realtor after the bank had taken it back)...there would have been another $8k or so in profit.

So...the next 50 or so houses were bought at courthouse steps... 

Said another way, my Dad was not a big "spend money to make money" guy...he was more "farmerish".

Anyway...neat stuff. 

How does that story answer the questions that were asked?  I think the questions asked are very important, even more so now that we all have a good understanding of your core values with money.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Who in your relationship believes and says that you use money abusively?  Where did that idea come from?

Who in your relationship believes and says money is a weapon?  Where did that idea come from?

My wife believes that I am financially abusive because I will not let her spend freely and question her spending. She would believe (I believe) that this has led to her keeping spending a secret and being manipulative to gain money from me. I do not believe that I am financially abusive as I have NEVER deprived her of her basic necessities... in fact she has ALWAYS come first in the pecking order for financial generosity vs my 'wants'. We have a vastly different yard stick to measure need vs wants. Since she believes I am restricting her from purchasing things for her NEEDS, she believe's that to be abusive. I have seen that she relays a version of financial restriction to her friends which does not tally with reality and as such THEY validate that she is being financially abused.

Heightened emotions and poor distress tollerance  results in classification of wants as NEEDS  curtailing her NEEDS due to be financially conservative  results in negative emotions of being restricted and inhibited from basic human rites  feels abused  tells amenable peers she has been abused  they validate that she has been abused

Since I know that curtailing her rites to meet her NEEDS and I know that her NEEDS are distorted, further curtailment of her spending capacity will further her sense of abuse and further her sense of captivity. I don't want to do anything to her to hurt her, that doesn't do any good for the conflict in our 'relationship'... however, I would like for her to see and learn for herself. She has access to money, however that comes with guilt as she and only she will be responsible for those transactions, and ultimately she will be held accountable for those transactions. That guilt is not anything I am associated with, nor am I leaving her without sufficient funds to meet her commonly recognised needs (and reasonable wants).

Enabler

[Enabler]

I have a streak in my of "going all in" when something feels right. 

I spend money when value is there. We'd been looking for a new house for a few years, W had fallen in love with about 5 properties by the time we'd stumbled on THE ONE that moved the needles for me. Not only was it an awesome family home but it was also well undervalued. General market was £340 per sq ft, this was on for £270, I bid through the offer and still bought it for £285 per sq ft.

... heck I even bought her a full eternity ring for £3.5k and I don't think ANY of my peers have done similar things.

[formflier]

I don't want to do anything to her to hurt her, that doesn't do any good for the conflict in our 'relationship'... however, I would like for her to see and learn for herself. 

So...is there any rational argument to be made that you are or have "hurt" her with money?

I'm interested in how she will see and learn from herself. 

I'm particularly interested in her learning about the intrinsic value of vocationally pursuing "joy" instead of "money" and how that relates to your desire for her to see and learn for herself.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I spend money when value is there. We'd been looking for a new house for a few years, W had fallen in love with about 5 properties by the time we'd stumbled on THE ONE that moved the needles for me. Not only was it an awesome family home but it was also well undervalued. General market was £340 per sq ft, this was on for £270, I bid through the offer and still bought it for £285 per sq ft.

... heck I even bought her a full eternity ring for £3.5k and I don't think ANY of my peers have done similar things.

Yeah..."real estate" decisions based on where my family will actually lives compared to decisions made when I invest are completely different.

While I hope and I have made considerable money on most of the "personal" homes I've purchased, that consideration is way down on the pecking order.  Mainly my personal purchases are about logistics and the "flow" of how we live.  So I kinda view it as an "expense" vice an investment.

So..the home we bought now was purchase primarily because most of our life can be done via walking/biking if we decide to do that (gym,church, park, relatives and many friends) plus living on a cul de sac limits traffic and "worries" about kids running around getting in traffic that is passing by.

Best,

FF

[Red5]

…plus living on a cul de sac limits traffic and "worries" about kids running around getting in traffic that is passing by.

… and eight week old German Shepherd puppies 

This is a great thread !

Red5

[Enabler]

It’s a double blind, it’s always been a double blind

Say no = hurt
Force unwanted financial responsibility on her = hurt
Restrict financial pipeline = hurt

Here’s the thing, she’s always had money in savings and access to it. Yet she always felt that I controlled money. She didn’t like to be deemed as wrong for her purchasing choices yet never tried to see things holistically. She wanted to be the victim and wanted me to be her keeper.

I can see how she perceived me hurting her but I don’t see the rational argument for me being responsible for that hurt.

[Red5]

It’s a double blind, it’s always been a double blind

Say no = hurt
Force unwanted financial responsibility on her = hurt
Restrict financial pipeline = hurt

Question (hypothetical thought)…

"What if"

What if you completely gave in, removed all controls, and monitors from the family finances… gave her full access, unfettered, no tracking, no auditing, let her be "free", no ceiling, no limits…

Would anything be any different?

Not picking… just being retrospective… because I'm thinking with the same "edge", but not about $$, but something else… another "what if"… what if I had just "let her"… would it have made any difference at all… would this alternate universe path lead to somewhere else, or the same place I'm at now with her…

I think I already know that answer though, but I'm curious about your thoughts Enabler,

Red5

[formflier]

So...if she has her own funds, savings and all of that.

Help me understand why you fund her doing things against your well thought out and long held values.

It seems we agree there is no rational argument for her being hurt/abused/injured.

Best,

FF

[Notwendy]

I can see how she perceived me hurting her but I don’t see the rational argument for me being responsible for that hurt.


You don't need a rationale for her feelings. It's how she perceives you and IMHO, you can't change that. If you are trying to be the "good guy" in her eyes and have her see the light, I don't mean to burst your bubble but I don't think it has to do with you- and so you can not change it.

This doesn't mean what you do doesn't matter. It matters- to you, and to others.

[Red5]

... “I don't think it has to do with you- and so you can not change it” .

This statement Notwendy... I think... is the “horcrux” of any borderline relationship... wow!

What if, as Cat said on another post/thread... “we should just let it go”,

Didn’t cause it, can’t control it, can’t change it... “it just is”, and there is nothing we could or can ever do about it... even if we’d given them the keys to the kingdom... and many of us have done just that... it wouldn’t matter... an empty vessel with a hole in the keel... a bottomless hole, that can never be “filled”.

And to what ends...

So onward we march... in lock step solidarity... living our lives hour to hour... day to day... and as the months and years pass, what is it that sustains us, love ?... commitment ?

I myself still “search”... for what I’m not quite sure, guess I’ll recognize it when and if I may find it.

You hang in there Enabler !

Red5

[formflier]

Interesting thought that there is little we can do to change "it".

I wonder...what if we do try to change it?  What if we expend money, time, energy (effort)...do you think it will make it better or worse?  (does it feed the monster?)

Best,

FF

[Turkish]

Enabler, late to this thread, but wow. I'm late to the thread but I can relate to you.  My ex has continually called me "cheap
" for years (in front of our kids) yet recently asked to borrow $25k to help pay off her credit card debt. She owes me a coupe thousand in joint expenses I'll never recoup. I can survive a lay off for a year, delaying gratification (I'd sure like a new car) because I realize that no one is coming to rescue me,  and I have no one to fall back upon. She didn't understand it in the r/s, and I don't feel like explaining it afterwards,  especially paying child support. Hope for the best, plan for the worst. "Cheap Daddy." "Oh, can I borrow money because I know you have it being cheap? Meet my needs!"

Is it possible to change her to your way of thinking? Likely not. How can you cope if you radically accept this?

[Enabler]

Like many things in a relationship with a pwBPD there is a disconnect between fantasy (who they think they are) and reality (their actions and behaviours). I believe that she can only seriously address finances or anything really when she gains some integrity (the ability to see the disconnect between fantasy and reality and act on it... or even just admit it exists). Whilst she continues to cognitively support and actively manage the separation between the 2 there is little hope. At a very base level, how can you know whether or not you excessively consume if you don't know how much there is in the pot to equate your fair share in the first place? However, in the meantime and having radically accepted this, I have to be careful to ensure that I am accountable for my own boundary management ensuring that I am the arbiter of 'fairness' such that I am neither punitive or unreasonable. I am accountable to her and my kids, even if she doesn't accept of like my account, and I may well wish to be accountable to other people if it suits to dispel myths and allow me to clear my name.

In answer to FF's questions re 'does it feed the monster if we try?', well yes it does make it worse in many respects because frankly the monster see's what the monster wants to see anyway. In the case of my W she feels that she doesn't excessively consume family resources, so overtly confronting this delusion with facts is triggering... BUT, confronting this delusion with boundaries is also triggering since she believes it utterly reasonable to be camped out on my front lawn... "why would you deny my needs". Spending resources on the problem really just results in a ratchet effect of upping the bar, shifting more things from the want pile to the need pile e.g. I bought her a new pair of Salamon fell running trainers for her Birthday, literally in the same breath as saying thanks she starts talking about needing a new road bike (this was post saying she was getting a divorce). My preference therefore is and has been boundaries... BUT... we live in a world of popular consensus unfortunately. We live in a world where if you choose to, you can rope in any Tom, Dick or Harry (and there are many willing applicants in today's Facebook, 'hey girlfriend you've gotta kick him to the kerb', instant gratification bla bla bla society. pwBPD in my experience do not seek out wisdom, they seek out validation and supporters. I have accepted that these people see a delusional version of her reality, because that is what she believes and that is what she has inferred to them. No one is asking me for the truth, they seem content with the version from my W, I'd love that opportunity. It takes effort by me to reassure myself that I am indeed not deluding myself and I am in fact being 'reasonable', it's considerably easier to consider myself reasonable when I see evidence that my W gains money by deceptive means to spend on items specifically for her own consumption.

Great example:

Flying monkey #1 - Enabler, I just wanted to say, EnablerW does not spend too much money on clothes
Enabler - How much money does EnablerW spend on clothes and how much money do we have?
Flying monkey #1 - I have no idea...
Enabler - Well I do...

Enabler 

[Notwendy]

It's a similar situation for me with my BPD mother. I've come to the conclusion that for her to have her situation where her social circle consists of people who rescue and validate her, is that she needs to be in victim position, and she perceives me as her persecutor. If she, or anyone in her circle, were to actually see who I really am, it would negate that perspective. Her world can't work for her if that were to happen.

One of her statements is how I "keep her from her grandchildren" which isn't really true. I did have boundaries with her with them but she's alienated them. Also they are at the stage where they are branching out with their own lives and goals and don't even see me as much as they did. I see this as a normal stage of life but I think she sees me as the cause of their visiting less.

Recently, we made the effort to gather the kids to visit grandma. Once she knew we were coming, she began to make requests, then demands,  to the point where I had to say no. So it was "yes" to a bunch of things and eventually a "no". After that, she was deeply deeply hurt. I wondered if she even recognized that we made the effort to come see her on our own- just for her, or since it didn't fit her narrative, it didn't register.

So for you Enabler- if the narrative is "Enabler is cheap" and for her to have the support of her friends- they need to believe this, when you aren't being cheap that disrupts the narrative. So you did buy her nice running shoes, but you didn't buy her a new bike so you are cheap. One fits the narrative ( that she feels is true) and the other ( the running shoes) doesn't.

I'm not saying this is a lie on her part. On my mother's part, she sees herself as being victimized by me. This is something long standing. I'm not that, but I'm not perfect either. I've done a lot of nice things for her, and also at times gotten cross or said no. But does she see what fits her story?

This doesn't mean what I do doesn't matter. It may not change her perspective but it does matter how I treat her and how I treat anyone. If I send her flowers on her birthday, or take a trip with the kids to see her, we've done something nice- no matter how she sees it.

For you though, with the possibility of divorce and you being framed as abusive, I think you need careful documentation and good legal advice. I'm sure you have done this. However, to try to change how she and her monkeys see you, I think that would alter her whole persona to them, and I don't think it's possible from what I have seen.  Buying the running shoes as a gift was a nice thing to do, a her perception doesn't change it.

[Enabler]

For you though, with the possibility of divorce and you being framed as abusive, I think you need careful documentation and good legal advice. I'm sure you have done this.

I keep a daily journal, I take photos of evidence, I keep transcripts of whatsapps, texts and emails. I'm pretty sure she knows I do this and again believes that I do this as a means to 'attack her' or use it against her, and in the past I'm sure I have found 'evidence' and challenged her with it in an attempt for her to change her ways... now... I just keep the information for my own sanity and to defend myself should the need arise. It's not FOG, it's just acceptance that I can't change her, but also the acceptance that she is seriously capable of messing with my head, documentation and a firm grasp of my reality is the pillow I sleep well on.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

I just keep the information for my own sanity

Good, because constantly being accused and also being seen through victim perspective can be a challenge. I used to buy into that too, and try to change it, JADE, please see me as the "good person" I am.

Now, I know I'm a good person, not a perfect person but someone who tries to live according to basic standard ethics ( don't cheat, don't lie, don't steal,...). I try to make amends if I make an error or unintentionally do something hurtful but I don't set out to be mean or cruel to people. This is one example of a boundary. I know who I am. How someone sees me doesn't change that.

It helped me to use the pink elephant analogy. If someone says I'm a pink elephant, it doesn't make me one. Calling you cheap, if you're not, doesn't make you cheap.

[Enabler]

Totally, and sometimes I need to remind myself of these things

Enabler

[formflier]

So...it would seem most if not all in this thread accepts the view (or find it helpful) of the teen that thinks her family is unreasonable (I love that example Notwendy)

On the one hand I think BPD can be described as extreme immaturity and that maturing will help some of it.  I don't think there is anyway to get away from the thought that Enabler is the "adult" in the relationship.  Probably best to not cast him as the "parent".

Still..if a wayward "teen" thinks they have it all figured out and is completely ungrateful to their parents and blames parents for not proving more (etc etc etc). 

Is the action to help that teen mature to keep providing "wants" or "needs" (as they define it)...?

or

Would it be best to let them make adult decisions, make adult money and come to adult conclusions all on their own?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

FF, I am in complete agreement with the theory, especially when it comes to children. My role as a parent isn't to be my kids best friend nor is it to be their lover  it's to be their parent. It's accepted that as a parent I am to do many many many things they don't like and stop them doing some things they'd like to do... that's the way of the world. As a husband, that should not be my role, and as such I put myself in a compromising position doing such things she feels have prevented her from making choices herself and accepting the consequences. But as we are also all aware of, pwBPD spend a lot of energy supporting the delusion that they are trustworthy / financially prudent / faithful / peaceful / sober... better... you can see how from the 2 perspectives one might feel justified in setting boundaries and the other may feel utterly aggrieved by the boundary believing it unnecessary and restrictive. 

I am at peace with myself regarding putting up boundaries, however I am acutely aware that there are consequences for me and consequences for any embers of the relationship still smouldering. In a situation where I am attempting to reduce conflict I am increasing conflict and negative emotions so treading carefully is paramount.

[formflier]

  In a situation where I am attempting to reduce conflict I am increasing conflict and negative emotions so treading carefully is paramount.

Can you fill in details on this. 

I get it that you (and me too) see reduction in conflict as a good metric to track and try to influence.

What are you doing (or not doing) that is increasing conflict. 

Note:  I would suggest that you challenge yourself as you answer.  Is there a "causal" relationship or is there merely a correlation that when you do x your wife does y.

Best,

FF

[I Am Redeemed]

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