The double standards are frightening

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So, I have been speaking with my ex who I suspect has BPD. I know this isn’t wise, but it has been 10 months & I feel no attraction towards her & I am so much stronger that I am confident that nothing will come of it. The main reason I am speaking to her is to get some closure & try to understand her behaviour which I know probably won’t happen. Some good has come out of us talking. She always accused me of talking to other women when I wasn’t, but I had a suspicion that this was projection. My ex has been seeing someone for around 3 months & some of our emails were of a sexual nature. I pointed out that this was making me feel uncomfortable as she had a boyfriend. She said he knew we were speaking then changed her mind & said he didn’t. Anyway, yesterday she told me that she had broken up with him because she found out he was messaging another woman behind her back. She said she has never done this to him & now she can’t trust him. I honestly can’t believe what she is saying to me. Are these people oblivious to what they do, or do they just have double standards. She is there chatting to me her ex in a sexual way & complaining that her boyfriend has waved at a woman on Facebook messenger then asked the woman why she was ignoring him. I knew my gut instinct was right. She also said that she hates men who get nasty & abusive when arguing. This woman once called me a fat ugly grotesque pig who she had to be drunk to sleep with. Do they not remember anything they have said or done? Do they just believe they can behave however they want but when it happens to them it’s not acceptable in any shape or form?

[magic78]

So, I have been speaking with my ex who I suspect has BPD. I know this isn’t wise, but it has been 10 months & I feel no attraction towards her & I am so much stronger that I am confident that nothing will come of it. The main reason I am speaking to her is to get some closure & try to understand her behaviour which I know probably won’t happen. Some good has come out of us talking. She always accused me of talking to other women when I wasn’t, but I had a suspicion that this was projection. My ex has been seeing someone for around 3 months & some of our emails were of a sexual nature. I pointed out that this was making me feel uncomfortable as she had a boyfriend. She said he knew we were speaking then changed her mind & said he didn’t. Anyway, yesterday she told me that she had broken up with him because she found out he was messaging another woman behind her back. She said she has never done this to him & now she can’t trust him. I honestly can’t believe what she is saying to me. Are these people oblivious to what they do, or do they just have double standards. She is there chatting to me her ex in a sexual way & complaining that her boyfriend has waved at a woman on Facebook messenger then asked the woman why she was ignoring him. I knew my gut instinct was right. She also said that she hates men who get nasty & abusive when arguing. This woman once called me a fat ugly grotesque pig who she had to be drunk to sleep with. Do they not remember anything they have said or done? Do they just believe they can behave however they want but when it happens to them it’s not acceptable in any shape or form?

[Skip]

Are these people oblivious to what they do, or do they just have double standards. She is there chatting to me her ex in a sexual way & complaining that her boyfriend has waved at a woman on Facebook messenger then asked the woman why she was ignoring him.

I am amazed at how many people live a double standard in general. I have caught myself in that place occasionally.

So, I have been speaking with my ex who I suspect has BPD. I know this isn’t wise, but it has been 10 months & I feel no attraction towards her & I am so much stronger that I am confident that nothing will come of it. The main reason I am speaking to her is to get some closure...

You aren't the first to do this. When I went back and found out about BPD, I spend two weeks looking carefully at my partner before letting the relationship languish. That two weeks really helped me.  I've read others going back and having contact and making sense of things.

But... do this with purpose, don't just hang out...

So, I have been speaking with my ex who I suspect has BPD. I know this isn’t wise, but it has been 10 months & I feel no attraction towards her & I am so much stronger that I am confident that nothing will come of it.

You are still emotionally connected. Don't kid yourself.

I might read it this way. She sent you sexually flirtatious texts while she was dating her boyfriend. He was flirting with someone on Facebook. Clearly their relationship is breaking down.  Rather than solve what is troubling them (which takes a lot of maturity) or breaking it off (which takes strength and confidence), they are testing the waters and looking for soft landings.

For you, that means there is kindling wood and matches. This could easily take a complicated step where where their relationship woes branch into the life of 1 or 2 other people.

I think this is the real message about her.

When her messages got sexual, you didn't exit. This says something, too.

Most of us (and I put myself at the top of the list) were not very good students of human nature and we didn't handle our relationships with a great level of emotional maturity. That was a revelation to me and a hard one to face.  When you see it, the challenge becomes how to become more emotionally mature and a better student of human nature in our break-up recovery.

Keep pushing. Keep reaching for understanding and growth.

[40days_in_desert]

I echo what Skip said. During the second time that my ex started being friendly and some was sexual flirtation, I didn’t exit and realized that she’s doing what she accused me of. I also realized what she would most likely do if we had reconciled and became a romantic couple again. By me not exiting or continuing the conversations that she started, realized that I was still emotionally connected.
On the double standards you’ll have to get accustomed to that and not try and make sense of it. Unless you have no reason to have further contact with her. I still deal with it because my ex and I have kids together. Just last weekend she showed told me that she had an issue with me having my girlfriend (almost a year relationship now) with me while school shopping with my kids. This weekend she and her boyfriend took the kids school shopping. Clearly a double standard right? I realize that it’s normal to not like seeing a new significant other of an ex doing things with your kids that typically only parents do when divorce isn’t a factor. So the feeling was ok but the way she expressed it wasn’t.

[crushedagain]

It's part of their very poor boundaries. My ex was the same. She regaled me with stories of exes, but if I even breathed a word about an ex she would freak out.

Those are memories which help me realize she's not at all the kind of woman I'm looking for. I know we're not supposed to compare, but my prior long-term gf was never like that, and I also trusted her implicitly. She would ask me to check her email for her and all sorts of things whereas my BPDexgf was so secretive that I never trusted her as much.

[magic78]

I am amazed at how many people live a double standard in general. I have caught myself in that place occasionally.

This is true however there are certain things that I would never apply double standards too & that is loyalty & any form of abuse. These things are not acceptable & I wouldn't request these from a partner then do them myself.

You aren't the first to do this. When I went back and found out about BPD, I spend two weeks looking carefully at my partner before letting the relationship languish. That two weeks really helped me.  I've read others going back and having contact and making sense of things.

But... do this with purpose, don't just hang out...

I knew reconnecting again was dangerous but I needed some kind of confirmation that it wasn't all in my head. She has shown me that she cannot be trusted which I suspected. I knew she was dating someone so I took the opportunity to see if she would talk to me behind his back which confirmed what I thought all along. Trust is a massive thing for me so finding out that I could never trust her has really opened my eyes & made me more certain that I could never be with her romantically ever again.

You are still emotionally connected. Don't kid yourself.

Yes, there is something still there. I have feelings for her but not enough to push things further especially as I can never trust her.

I might read it this way. She sent you sexually flirtatious texts while she was dating her boyfriend. He was flirting with someone on Facebook. Clearly their relationship is breaking down.  Rather than solve what is troubling them (which takes a lot of maturity) or breaking it off (which takes strength and confidence), they are testing the waters and looking for soft landings.

For you, that means there is kindling wood and matches. This could easily take a complicated step where where their relationship woes branch into the life of 1 or 2 other people.

I think this is the real message about her.

When her messages got sexual, you didn't exit. This says something, too.

Most of us (and I put myself at the top of the list) were not very good students of human nature and we didn't handle our relationships with a great level of emotional maturity. That was a revelation to me and a hard one to face.  When you see it, the challenge becomes how to become more emotionally mature and a better student of human nature in our break-up recovery.

Keep pushing. Keep reaching for understanding and growth.

Ah so you think that their relationship wasn't at its best & that is why he was looking else where? That makes sense. I am been careful here & I have told her numerous times that we will never be together again. She says she agrees but obviously she is trying to play me here. When I remind of this she quickly turns things on me & says something like "you're way too old anyway" "I never get back with ex's" etc etc. She keeps giving me her mobile number & asks to text but I decline. She is really trying to establish an emotional connection again. She keeps saying stuff like "I am really upset & I am glad you are there for me like before" "it shows that we still love & care for each other to some degree"

She also apologised for everything, for the 30 break ups then a few minutes later when I said something she didn't like she fired into me saying "by the way it wasn't all just my fault" She then came up with 2 insignificant things that I apparently did which I honestly cannot remember doing just to try & justify all her PLEASE READty behaviour.

After all the reading I have done on BPD / NPD I can read her like a book. She tries to contain her self but push her a little & she caves in.

I am treading carefully though.

[magic78]

I echo what Skip said. During the second time that my ex started being friendly and some was sexual flirtation, I didn’t exit and realized that she’s doing what she accused me of. I also realized what she would most likely do if we had reconciled and became a romantic couple again. By me not exiting or continuing the conversations that she started, realized that I was still emotionally connected.
On the double standards you’ll have to get accustomed to that and not try and make sense of it. Unless you have no reason to have further contact with her. I still deal with it because my ex and I have kids together. Just last weekend she showed told me that she had an issue with me having my girlfriend (almost a year relationship now) with me while school shopping with my kids. This weekend she and her boyfriend took the kids school shopping. Clearly a double standard right? I realize that it’s normal to not like seeing a new significant other of an ex doing things with your kids that typically only parents do when divorce isn’t a factor. So the feeling was ok but the way she expressed it wasn’t.

Yes, I will agree that there must be some emotional connection still there but not enough for me to enter into a relationship with her again especially as she has proved to me that I could never trust her. Throughout our 2 year relationship she constantly accused me of talking to other women which I never ever did. By speaking to me behind her boyfriends back it just prove what I though. She was projecting her guilt onto me. She even asked me a personal question that only I would know so that she knew it was me emailing her. This is how sly & calculated she is. Then she complains to me that her ex has been waving to a woman in messenger & she has never gone behind his back! It's delusional.

She has told me how loving, caring, funny, always there for her & the best boyfriend ever. Exactly the same things she said about me. I am actually finding it all amusing. I cant believe someone can be so contradictory

[gizmocasci]

I'll chime in on this.

My ex used to talk about her exes and I'd say please don't talk about them it's your past and I'd be accused of being jealous of them. Yet in turn she would talk about my ex's on how bad they were for me.

I'd mention to her that she was projecting her past stuff onto me (I've been doing a lot of work on myself the past few years, as well as working with a therapist), and she would say it was just her asserting herself. Meanwhile, everything I did was a projection according to her.

Here's the really good one, when I mentioned to her about going to counseling together, she said it would be a rude awakening for me. I was like WTF kind of world am I living in, I've been going to therapy for two years.

Don't let it drive you too crazy, although it's easier said than done.

R

[magic78]

I'll chime in on this.

My ex used to talk about her exes and I'd say please don't talk about them it's your past and I'd be accused of being jealous of them. Yet in turn she would talk about my ex's on how bad they were for me.

I'd mention to her that she was projecting her past stuff onto me (I've been doing a lot of work on myself the past few years, as well as working with a therapist), and she would say it was just her asserting herself. Meanwhile, everything I did was a projection according to her.

Here's the really good one, when I mentioned to her about going to counseling together, she said it would be a rude awakening for me. I was like WTF kind of world am I living in, I've been going to therapy for two years.

Don't let it drive you too crazy, although it's easier said than done.

R

My ex would talk about her ex's too & how bad my ex's were. Another she would do was talk about her future with me not in it which I found strange. For example we would be in bed together talking & she would say something like "if my boyfriend ever...….." I'd be like what do you mean your boyfriend that's me.

She also would often say how honest she was & how she was unable to lie. This I found out to be complete rubbish but she used this as an excuse to belittle people. She would insult people then say it was ok because she couldn't lie.

It made me laugh yesterday. We were talking & I briefly mentioned our rocky relationship. She had previously apologised for the stupid amount of times that she had broken up with me. Then because she felt I was trying to blame her she came out with 2 ridiculous things that I allegedly had said to her & used these 2 things as a reason why she had broken up with me over 30 times! She was really scraping the barrel trying her best to find someway to shift the blame onto me for all her PLEASE READty behaviour.

[Skip]

2 ridiculous things that I allegedly had said to her & used these 2 things as a reason why she had broken up with me over 30 times!

What are you learning in this? Remember, it's not healthy to hang around just to mock and ridicule - make sure you're getting someting out of this.

What did she say? What were the 2 things?

[magic78]

What are you learning in this? Remember, it's not healthy to hang around just to mock and ridicule - make sure you're getting someting out of this.

What did she say? What were the 2 things?

I am learning that she is not authentic. I am learning that the gut feeling that I had was true. I am learning that all the times she accused me of cheating or talking to other women she was more than likely doing the things that she was accusing me of. I am learning that she doesn't care about me but what I can provide for her. I am learning that she can easily say anything she wants without it been true as long as it serves her some purpose.

I am not mocking her directly I am sort of listening to her & taking in evidence.

The 2 things that she said I apparently said which I honestly cannot remember were:

1) "no wonder people get cheated on" she said this is why sometimes she was distant. I have no idea what she even means here?
2) "I hated kids" she said I woke up & said this. I pointed out that I have a son who I almost have custody of who I love dearly & I really liked her child so I am not sure why I would have said this but if I did I am sorry & I wouldn't have literally meant it. She said so it wasn't all her fault because I could be nasty too.

I have not even mentioned the horrendous cruel vile things she had said to me during the relationship but it was far far worse than this together with the constant break ups, walking on egg shells & constant accusations of cheating. It just made me wonder why she had just mentioned these 2 things when I cannot remember saying them & it is the first time she has ever mentioned it.

[Skip]

1) "no wonder people get cheated on" she said this is why sometimes she was distant. I have no idea what she even means here?
2) "I hated kids" she said I woke up & said this. I pointed out that I have a son who I almost have custody of who I love dearly & I really liked her child so I am not sure why I would have said this but if I did I am sorry & I wouldn't have literally meant it. She said so it wasn't all her fault because I could be nasty too.

1 = She has fear of vulnerability (abandonment). One protection for vulnerability is emotional withdrawal (see fear of fire example, below).
2= She is saying that you did things that hurt her. The point is not what you said (see just blurted out the first thing that came to mind - maye someone else said it), the point is that you did and said things that were painful. You know that this is true. Highly sensitive people are easily hurt. My current girlfriend is very emotionally stable - but she is highly sensitive - to light, to sound, to violence on TV, to mass shootings, to her daughter feeling sad - and yes, to me saying things that weren't intended to be hurtful. This is the real world. People are often driven by emotions.

If the reason to communicate with her is to "gather evidence" for a secret trial where you are judging her, don't do that. I said it this way to make a point. I don't think you are malicious or mean... just be careful. Have a purpose in these conversations.  If the purpose is to prove to yourself that she is a skank and you're better off without her, then you're there and you can move on from this.

If you want to use this time to understand how she thinks and how she reacted to things you did, that is valuable. My ex broke my heart. But in the end, we can learn more from these relationships than we initially think. One thing we can learn is that not everyone thinks and feels the same. Logic is not "king" in relationships.

Think about it. The labeling of her thinking as flawed and "what the hell is that all about" is likely the same mental process you had in the relationship. If you understood her better then (and that can be hard) you probably would have had more peace - and if she is not your type, that would have been more apparent earlier.

This is a hard fact. What people with BPD do and think makes 100% sense. This is true of everyone that we encounter that see things differently than we do.  What is different. The context.

Don't get h

If you really want to know someone, you have to understand the context of how they think. That's not possible for casual acquaintances, but it is for an intimate person in our life.

For example. If someone is freezing cold, but then puts out the fire in the fireplace before they go to bed, that might seem crazy. However, if the context is that they were caught in a fire as a child, it makes perfect sense to them. Being cold is not as bad a being burned to death.

Most people don't trace their thinking back every time they decide something. A lot of context in bred deep in the thought pattern... so its not easy to figure out, but we can get close.

[Skip]

Jumping in to add some lessons in this note sharing thread...

I'd mention to her that she was projecting her past stuff onto me (I've been doing a lot of work on myself the past few years, as well as working with a therapist), and she would say it was just her asserting herself. Meanwhile, everything I did was a projection according to her.

It's always good to have a rule in a relationship to not use psychology as a weapon. It's a good rule.  Use what you learn to understand people and yourself and to make better decisions, be wiser, and not over-react.

Just a general statement.

My ex used to talk about her exes.

I'd say please don't talk about them it's your past.

I'd be accused of being jealous of them.

Yet in turn she would talk about my ex's on how bad they were for me.

I agree that it's best to leave these in the past and she should have. Same type of things as not using psychology...

This is just run of the mill relationship stuff... you will encounter this again. Some people will do this - it's immature  - it's not pathology.

I had a friend (girl) who has a boyfriend who always talked about his past girls. One day she said "how would you feel if I told you my last bf has a much bigger penis than you"?  He never mentioned another girl again. She never told him it her statement was true or hypothetical.

Smart lady. She always impresses me with her people skills.  

[magic78]

1 = She has fear of vulnerability (abandonment). One protection for vulnerability is emotional withdrawal (see fear of fire example, below).
2= She is saying that you did things that hurt her. The point is not what you said (see just blurted out the first thing that came to mind - maye someone else said it), the point is that you did and said things that were painful. You know that this is true. Highly sensitive people are easily hurt. My current girlfriend is very emotionally stable - but she is highly sensitive - to light, to sound, to violence on TV, to mass shootings, to her daughter feeling sad - and yes, to me saying things that weren't intended to be hurtful. This is the real world. People are often driven by emotions.

1: Yeah I can see this & how it could have set off her fear of abandonment however I still can not remember saying it.
2: Ah ok so it is her way of saying I caused her pain & using the first thing that came into her head? I know I am going to sound defensive here but I always felt like I treated her good, I was always there for her, I never verbally abused her or insulted her in anyway. I never got angry or lost my temper but I guess I am not perfect.[/quote]

If the reason to communicate with her is to "gather evidence" for a secret trial where you are judging her, don't do that. I said it this way to make a point. I don't think you are malicious or mean... just be careful. Have a purpose in these conversations.  If the purpose is to prove to yourself that she is a skank and you're better off without her, then you're there and you can move on from this.

I genuinely do not want to cause her any harm. As you already noted I must still have some emotional attachment to her & I still do deeply care about her. I still had a lot of what if's going around in my head. The things I have found out are a by-product of our conversations. I have not led her on & I have been 100% clear with her about my intentions & that I have no interest in rekindling our relationship. She did reveal  that she cannot be trusted & that is enough proof for me.

If you want to use this time to understand how she thinks and how she reacted to things you did, that is valuable. My ex broke my heart. But in the end, we can learn more from these relationships than we initially think. One thing we can learn is that not everyone thinks and feels the same. Logic is not "king" in relationships.

Think about it. The labeling of her thinking as flawed and "what the hell is that all about" is likely the same mental process you had in the relationship. If you understood her better then (and that can be hard) you probably would have had more peace - and if she is not your type, that would have been more apparent earlier.

So should I be taking some blame for her behaviour because I didn't understand her? I have female friends & I have had girlfriends that I didn't have to understand as they conducted themselves like most other people. I spent almost 3 years trying to please her but I could never do right. No matter how I dealt with a situation it was always wrong. If I reacted in a certain way one week & it wasn't favourable I would change my reaction the next week & it still wasn't favourable. I could not win hence the feeling of walking on egg shells.

I am starting to doubt myself now from what you have said. I am now back to thinking maybe it was all my fault. Maybe the verbal abuse & the constant break ups were all my fault because I didn't understand her. Maybe she was accusing me of talking to women because she was talking to men but was that my fault for causing her to fear abandonment because I didn't respond to her text messages immediately or I didn't understand her?

[once removed]

I am starting to doubt myself now from what you have said. I am now back to thinking maybe it was all my fault. Maybe the verbal abuse & the constant break ups were all my fault because I didn't understand her

it doesnt have to be all or nothing.

i think when we look at it as "all my fault", its because we are attached to the wounds.

we werent perfect. our partners werent perfect. mistakes were made. when we are a little bit more removed from the pain, its productive to examine that, so we can better understand, and learn.

my relationship had a lot of double standards, on both sides. its not something i want to repeat. i had to look at how i got there.

the relationship, for whatever reasons, is over. it now becomes not about who was better/worse in the relationship, but about the lessons we want to take to future relationships.

[magic78]

it doesnt have to be all or nothing.

i think when we look at it as "all my fault", its because we are attached to the wounds.

we werent perfect. our partners werent perfect. mistakes were made. when we are a little bit more removed from the pain, its productive to examine that, so we can better understand, and learn.

my relationship had a lot of double standards, on both sides. its not something i want to repeat. i had to look at how i got there.

the relationship, for whatever reasons, is over. it now becomes not about who was better/worse in the relationship, but about the lessons we want to take to future relationships.

I accept that both of us were not perfect but this then leads me down the road of wondering whether we should give it another go and this mind set scares me.

[once removed]

i learned a lot from my relationship. the lesson though, wasnt to go back and try to apply it in that relationship and make up for what i did wrong.

thats just unfinished business.

if thats what its about, it just means theres more detaching to do. its more about you than her. dont just get back with her in order to feel better about yourself.

but if youre seriously considering giving it another go, you need to (as objectively as you can) break down why the relationship didnt work before, and what is going to fundamentally change if you got back together. youd need a plan. this is no small order.

[magic78]

i learned a lot from my relationship. the lesson though, wasnt to go back and try to apply it in that relationship and make up for what i did wrong.

thats just unfinished business.

if thats what its about, it just means theres more detaching to do. its more about you than her. dont just get back with her in order to feel better about yourself.

but if youre seriously considering giving it another go, you need to (as objectively as you can) break down why the relationship didnt work before, and what is going to fundamentally change if you got back together. youd need a plan. this is no small order.

It didn't work before for various reasons. Mainly because she couldn't stop herself from breaking up with me and honestly I tried everything. The only way I could stop her or would be to act like a robot and do every thing she said and never have my own opinion or life. It also didn't work because she constantly accused me of cheating when I didn't reply to her messages instantly so to avoid that I woukd need to give up my job. Plus now as I suspected she has no problem speaking to other men behind her boyfriends back in a sexual flirty way so how would I change that? And the verbal abuse that I tried to stop but she would say it was my fault for annoying her. I'm not sure how I can take full responsibility for all of that and change my behaviour without losing my sense of self?

[once removed]

your examples are a bit black and white. she was a difficult person, no doubt, as was my ex. but the solution wasnt to act like a robot or give up your job. you found yourself in a dysfunctional relationship. the solution was more about either dealing with conflict in a healthier and more mature way, or exiting in a mature and healthy way. the dysfunction wasnt all her. part of detaching is examining what we brought to it, what was ours.

for example, you had a jealous ex, as did i. we have an entire workshop on healthy ways to deal with a jealous loved one. being with a jealous person is a choice. its not one that i would make again, i find jealousy and possessiveness very smothering and unattractive. but its something that i could have handled a lot better at the time, and thats a valuable lesson for me.

how to deal with a jealous partner: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=78324.0

I'm not sure how I can take full responsibility for all of that and change my behaviour without losing my sense of self?

focusing on the lessons we want to take into future relationships is stage four of detaching. if youre not in that stage, its okay. keep working.

ill give you an example.

when my ex and i broke up, i was a complete and total basket case. endless obsessing and ruminating, daily crying jags, anxiety attacks that would last for hours.

i talked my family and friends heads off about it, and was always begging for reassurance.

my ex and i didnt see each other very much in our last few months together. things between us had really come to a head, and the writing was on the wall (i couldnt see that at the time). at one point, she said some things i couldnt really forgive or get past, really nasty, very personal things. yet, i couldnt bring myself to break up with her. so i emotionally abandoned the relationship. i ignored her. i know now that she started looking elsewhere when that happened. eventually i decided i wanted to reinvest in the relationship. i didnt know it, but she had, on some level, begun to grieve and move on, she just hadnt gone through with it. eventually, we did break up, and she got in a new relationship pretty quickly, and i felt completely and totally blindsided.

my friends and family, very gently, tried to tell me that what happened wasnt that big of a surprise. that if you emotionally abandon and neglect a relationship, eventually youre going to lose that person.

hearing that would send me into a tailspin. the idea that she had been letting the relationship go for some time, was completely catastrophic to me. the idea that i had any responsibility, that there was anything i could have done but failed to do, would cause me to ruminate for hours on end. which is a funny place to be for someone who a month earlier had desperately wanted to get away from the relationship.

its been almost nine years. today i look at it very differently without any pain attached. i couldnt cope with the relationship stress, so i coped by withdrawing and escaping. i wasnt strong enough to end it. i wasnt strong enough to lead it in a healthier direction. she wasnt strong enough to end it either, to deal with what she said and did, or to deal with the fall out over it. so she coped by finding someone else, perhaps even more than one person. we were both weak, and we both took the cowards way out. i also completely understand why we both did what we did.

it isnt about fault or blame. its about understanding what happened and learning from it. i dont want to find myself in that position again. ive learned to better understand myself and others. ive learned to better understand relationships, how they evolve, and how they break down. ive learned healthier ways of coping, resolving conflict, and improving a relationship. ive also learned to make hard, emotionally challenging choices like ending a dead or unhealthy relationship. it has served me well. i dont want or need to take those lessons back to that relationship and try to make it work. it ended.

there are five stages of detaching. i didnt just jump to stage four or five. it takes work, but you can get there too.

[Skip]

My thoughts are not about blame, nor to suggest that you give it another go, nor is to say if you did xx your relationship would have been better.

I'm talking about learning from our mistakes.

Rather than approach this as a "gotcha", take the time to let her explain who she is, how she thinks, how she saw you.  Compare that to what you thought was going on. Get members to help you connect the dots.

Go beyond the "bat PLEASE READ crazy" explanations.

All BPD behaviors are human behaviors that most of us do - people with BPD do it some of it in extremes. That's all it is. And that's enough to make a relationship hell. That in itself is a huge lesson - it doesn't take much in a relationship to spell big problems.

Example. I read something about mirroring on in a thread recently and it implied that it was pathological. It's not and we will do ourselves a disservice to take that as fact. We all mirror. That's how people bond. All my love interests in my life mirrored me to and I mirrored them.

What was different about BPD or BPD traits was the the extent of the mirroring. So on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being extreme mirroring, things don't really go wrong if you and your partner in outside of the 3-8 range.

When someone gets on the high end of that scale, 9 or 10 they start giving up your own identity to mirror and they will ultimately resent that.  When someone received mirroring at level and buys into it, they set themselves up for a huge fall - one most of us have taken.

Why would anyone operate at 9 or 10?  Well if you a feel unlovable, flawed, ugly its one way to make friends and find lovers.

Sexual behavior works like this too. Getting into the 9 or10 zone is attractive at first but has a price for both parties.

You are probably asking what guy wouldn't want a hyper-sexual girlfriend that puts him on a pedestal. And with that thought you can see why we have repeat flyers here.

I for one don't want it - its a ticket to disaster. I'm happy with a balanced relationship hat has mutually good sex and healthy respect in the balance - it's real.

[magic78]

your examples are a bit black and white. she was a difficult person, no doubt, as was my ex. but the solution wasnt to act like a robot or give up your job. you found yourself in a dysfunctional relationship. the solution was more about either dealing with conflict in a healthier and more mature way, or exiting in a mature and healthy way. the dysfunction wasnt all her. part of detaching is examining what we brought to it, what was ours.

I am not sure how my examples could be any other than black & white without going into detail but I will give you a few examples.  She once was telling me about a car crash in her street, because I didn't understand the exact location she said that she didn't want to be with someone who didn't listen & ended the relationship. Another thing that happened often was that she couldn't get a baby sitter so she couldn't see me. I would suggest other ways that we could see each other such as me going to her house. She would find an excuse for this not to happen then end the relationship. Another time she ran out of gas to warm her house late at night. I said that I would go to her house, pick her top up card & go get her some. Just because I asked her if she knew where to top the gas up from she had a massive tantrum then said "bye" & went to bed. The next day she accused me of leaving her without heating & not caring about her. So how do you deal wit these type of conflicts in a "mature & healthy way"?

for example, you had a jealous ex, as did i. we have an entire workshop on healthy ways to deal with a jealous loved one. being with a jealous person is a choice. its not one that i would make again, i find jealousy and possessiveness very smothering and unattractive. but its something that i could have handled a lot better at the time, and thats a valuable lesson for me.

how to deal with a jealous partner: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=78324.0.

I have had a quick look at this & one thing it says is “is there any justification for the jealousy?” Yeah this is the first thing to acknowledge & look into which I constantly did. I work 38 hours a week, I do not drink, I have 2 male friends, I stopped going on social media, I let her look through my phone, I don't go clubbing / pubs, I tried to respond to her texts immediately but she still accused me of cheating or talking to other women. I talked to her at great lengths in a mature understanding way about her concerns & I explained that I couldn't respond to her texts immediately while I was at work. Nothing helped & she just carried on. I became a nervous wreck at work. If I had an urgent meeting I would run to the toilet to text her that I wouldn't be available for a while. She wouldn't believe me most of the times. However, she was very suspicious with her phone & openly admitted that she spoke to guys & ex's but I never became jealous or accused her. I believe it was all projection especially due to recent events. As I described earlier she had been talking to me in a sexual flirty way while been in a relationship then dumped her boyfriend because he was chatting to a woman then made a point of saying that she would never do this to him. Her moral compass is obviously not very favourable. How could I ever trust this woman again if I decided to give it another go? She also lied about a family member having stage 1 cancer to try & manipulate me.

focusing on the lessons we want to take into future relationships is stage four of detaching. if youre not in that stage, its okay. keep working.

ill give you an example.

when my ex and i broke up, i was a complete and total basket case. endless obsessing and ruminating, daily crying jags, anxiety attacks that would last for hours.

i talked my family and friends heads off about it, and was always begging for reassurance.

my ex and i didnt see each other very much in our last few months together. things between us had really come to a head, and the writing was on the wall (i couldnt see that at the time). at one point, she said some things i couldnt really forgive or get past, really nasty, very personal things. yet, i couldnt bring myself to break up with her. so i emotionally abandoned the relationship. i ignored her. i know now that she started looking elsewhere when that happened. eventually i decided i wanted to reinvest in the relationship. i didnt know it, but she had, on some level, begun to grieve and move on, she just hadnt gone through with it. eventually, we did break up, and she got in a new relationship pretty quickly, and i felt completely and totally blindsided.

my friends and family, very gently, tried to tell me that what happened wasnt that big of a surprise. that if you emotionally abandon and neglect a relationship, eventually youre going to lose that person.

hearing that would send me into a tailspin. the idea that she had been letting the relationship go for some time, was completely catastrophic to me. the idea that i had any responsibility, that there was anything i could have done but failed to do, would cause me to ruminate for hours on end. which is a funny place to be for someone who a month earlier had desperately wanted to get away from the relationship.

its been almost nine years. today i look at it very differently without any pain attached. i couldnt cope with the relationship stress, so i coped by withdrawing and escaping. i wasnt strong enough to end it. i wasnt strong enough to lead it in a healthier direction. she wasnt strong enough to end it either, to deal with what she said and did, or to deal with the fall out over it. so she coped by finding someone else, perhaps even more than one person. we were both weak, and we both took the cowards way out. i also completely understand why we both did what we did.

I can relate to this. Because of my co-dependent caretaking nature I wasn't strong enough to end the relationship so I let it run its course until she didn't love me no more. You mention that you wasn't strong enough to lead it in a healthier direction? How on earth do you lead a relationship in an healthy direction with an unhealthy person. It's like the verbal & emotional abuse I suffered. No abuse whether it be verbal, emotional, physical is acceptable EVER. She called me some horrendous stuff when she broke up with me, really nasty belittling things such as fat, ugly, grotesque & I was below her. I never did anything like this to her no matter what. How do you lead the relationship in an healthy direction with someone who will not even accept that their behaviour is disgusting. I asked her to stop verbally abusing me but she said it was my fault, all the break ups were my fault. It's ok your friends & family giving you advice but that advice is for healthy people & not personality disordered people. You are dealing with individuals who cannot change unless they go through years of intensive therapy.

it isnt about fault or blame. its about understanding what happened and learning from it. i dont want to find myself in that position again. ive learned to better understand myself and others. ive learned to better understand relationships, how they evolve, and how they break down. ive learned healthier ways of coping, resolving conflict, and improving a relationship. ive also learned to make hard, emotionally challenging choices like ending a dead or unhealthy relationship. it has served me well. i dont want or need to take those lessons back to that relationship and try to make it work. it ended.

there are five stages of detaching. i didnt just jump to stage four or five. it takes work, but you can get there too.

Yes I agree & I have learned so much about myself & it has made me look at why I let myself stay in a relationship like this. Why did I get back with her 30 times which isn't healthy in its self? Why did I allow her to reduce my self esteem to almost zero? I will openly accept my part in it but I can never justify her abuse. You may have learned a lot of lessons but most of them you shouldn't need to use with healthy people.

[magic78]

Yes we all do exhibit some of the some traits such as mirroring. I do this often. Society does this. My son does this with his friends but as you say it's to what extent & I also believe it's when it goes from been sort of subcontious behaviour to purposely used to manipulate.

[Skip]

but as you say it's to what extent & I also believe it's when it goes from been sort of subcontious behaviour to purposely used to manipulate.

(1) From subconscious to conscious...

 (2) From well-meaning to manipulative...[/i]

You don't think it's could be over compensation learned since childhood (reinforced by others) - learned behavior - but rather some sinister and overt manipulation conceived in adulthood and meticulously implemented?  

Is this what you are learning in talking with your former girlfriend?

[magic78]

(1) From subconscious to conscious...

 (2) From well-meaning to manipulative...[/i]

You don't think it's could be over compensation learned since childhood (reinforced by others) - learned behavior - but rather some sinister and overt manipulation conceived in adulthood and meticulously implemented?  

Is this what you are learning in talking with your former girlfriend?

I am not sure how it develops & whether it is a personality disorder trait or just a learned manipulation tactic. One thing that I did take note of during our relationship was the similarities between my ex & her mother 7 to think of it her sister. I witnessed her mother using triangulation as well as lying to get what she wanted. In fact her own mother asked me to post something on social media so it would make another guy jealous. This was before I was dating my ex (her daughter). Her mother was extremely jealous & mistrusting. She also was in & out of relationships, one minute excusing her partner of cheating then the next minute professing her love for him.

[Skip]

I am not sure how it develops & whether it is a personality disorder trait or just a learned manipulation tactic.

... but you know that it is malicious.

Blaise Aguirre (MD, Harvard) who is an international expert in teen BPD (the hardcore stuff, not the traits that most of us dealt with) make an important point that just because we feel manipulated, it doesn't mean the persons act was intended to manipulate. If you read philosophers  (e.g., Bertrand Russell) they caution us not to confuse how we feel with what was intended, in general. This has been a helpful life lesson to me.

Aguirre, by the way, had a whirlwind BPD relationship when he was in medical school and started his journey in this field much the way most of us have - as a broken lover.

I would contend that when we are highly attracted to someone, we throw all the charm we have at them. The internet is full of books of how to attract women and how to do well in interviews. We wear our best clothes, pick mood restaurants, wear cologne, say clever things... is it all malicious manipulation?

I might contend, that for a great many member, a lot who are very smart, they would see through a malicious manipulation. It is the incredible sincerity of it that is so alluring to us. 


 

[magic78]

In my opinion knowingly adjusting your behaviour to gain favourable results when at the same time possibly hurting the other person is malicious & not acceptable.

For example certain behaviours I would class as normal or acceptable but they could still be classed as manipulative especially taken too far. Such as not answering a text immediately on purpose to create a sense of mystery. But if you take this too far & blatantly ignore a text for days while it is obvious you are hurting the other person then this is malicious. A lot of my ex's behaviour was intended to get what she wanted without caring about my feelings. Same as her apologies. Her apologies were not because she was upset that she had hurt me but to gain something from it.

We all know that advertising is based on manipulation & good advertisements use phycological tricks such as scarcity where something that is said to be scarce becomes more valuable. Pick up artists use loads of these tactics & some of the tactics are bordering on Narcissistic & in my opinion malicious.

My ex would often do things to see how I would react & she admitted this. For instance she would often tell me she wasn't feeling well & couldn't see me to see how I reacted. If I reacted naturally & told her that I hoped she felt better & we would see each other another time she would accuse me of not wanting to see her. So, the next time I would change my reply, go against my morals & plead with her to see me. She then accused me of been nasty & not appreciating that she wasn't feeling well. I couldn't win!

[Skip]

magic78, no one is doubting that your ex acted badly in the relationship and did some bad things.

The only point here is that you are lumping innocent behavior, typical relationship crap and immaturity, and pathology all together in this seamless ball. And while this might make the breakup feel less of a loss (aka, she was a monster), you will find that in your upcoming relationship everything and everyone is going to look mentally ill and you will through protective things at them and destroy relationship in doing so.

This NPD/BPD wave of psychology that is plentiful on the internet is lowering men's emotional IQ, not raising it. Hell, if we truly belived all these ex were clinically ill with personality disorders, it would suggest that 60-70% of the population has one.

Don't by the coolaid. You have a bad relationship. Leave what it really was about. Make understanding human nature a priority.  A high emotional IQ is the best protection you can have going forward and it is the best thing to have in a relationship.

For instance she would often tell me she wasn't feeling well & couldn't see me to see how I reacted. If I reacted naturally & told her that I hoped she felt better & we would see each other another time she would accuse me of not wanting to see her. So, the next time I would change my reply, go against my morals & plead with her to see me. She then accused me of been nasty & not appreciating that she wasn't feeling well. I couldn't win!

This is not pathology. This is immature/insecure stuff that men and women have been doing since the beginning of time.

Situation 1 in something people do when they feel insecure - she was testing you. Situation  2 is something people do when they feel engulfed.  You will see this again in life. The lesson is to know what it is and try to read it and take the most support action.

Human nature is very messy, very complicated.

As men. we spend incredible amounts of time learning all the nuances of swinging a golf clubs in different weather and terrain, but expect relationships to be easy like a game of checkers.   

We're trying to help you...

 

[magic78]

  Skip

Ok lets leave all the labels like BPD/NPD aside. I have no idea if she had a personality disorder. I am almost 41 years old & I have had various relationships. I can say that the way she behaved was not what I have experienced before. Referring to her behaviour as innocent when it clearly has effected me emotionally is invalidating my feelings. This is similar to telling someone they are too sensitive after been called something horrendous.

When I originally started experiencing issues I joined various relationship forums for advice. The BPD diagnosis stared being thrown about for my ex. This led me to various BPD forums including this one. Some of her traits seemed to fit BPD/NPD. In the end what really mattered was is this a relationship that is healthy & it clearly was not. I am not healthy, I am co-dependent & I allowed myself to be abused. I conditioned her to behave the way she did.

At the end of the day we treat people how we expect to be treated. Whether she has BPD/NPD/Immature or what ever else you want to label her as nothing excuses verbal degrading & belittling abuse. No one should be in a relationship where your self esteem is eroded. Where your partner specifically & maliciously uses your weaknesses against you. Where you are constantly walking on egg shells.

Yes, I accept that both people are to blame for this unhealthy relationship to some degree . I am past he point of trying to diagnose her. All I know is that she made me feel like s**t. Breaking up with someone at least once per month is toxic & traumatizing. Even if she didn't mean it, it was still a form of manipulation & it is not normal.

Having a high emotional IQ will assist you in regulating your emotions & understanding your partners wants & needs but it is not going to protect you against abusive & toxic behaviour. The only way having a high emotional IQ would or should help in this situation is to help you end the relationship & walk away. Unless I am totally missing the meaning of emotional IQ?

I am grateful for your help by the way & I apologise if I come across as confrontational. I am still hurt & I am still trying to get my head around what happened & whether there is something I could salvage out of this relationship.

I am very defensive mainly because I truly went out of my way to conform to everything she wanted. She contorted me into a pretzel & it still wasn't good enough. I ended up an emotional wreck & this then affected my relationship with my son & also my work life. I cant even look at another woman, I feel insignificant & unworthy of anyone. She has made me believe I am worthless, ugly, disgusting & useless. She knew I had low self esteem & she has made it even lower. This isn't just a one off either. She has a history of unstable relationships.

[Skip]

Having a high emotional IQ will assist you in regulating your emotions & understanding your partners wants & needs but it is not going to protect you against abusive & toxic behaviour. The only way having a high emotional IQ would or should help in this situation is to help you end the relationship & walk away. Unless I am totally missing the meaning of emotional IQ?

According to the APA, 29% of the population has one or more of the diseases listed in the DSM. If you included all the people being labeled on the internet, that could be 60% (I more believe the 29% and with 7% being substance abusers). The point is that we can't end every relationship and run - we are going to encounter this stuff in employers, HOAs, baseball leagues, church, dating sites, driving on the road, standing in line at Macy's.

We need tools and skills and the perspective to navigate and to not be damaged by damaging behavior.

And these same tools and skills work with everyone we encounter.

I am very defensive mainly because I truly went out of my way to conform to everything she wanted.

Emotional IQ will help you know when you are "throwing good after bad" and stop.  It will help you better see incompatibility and accept it and move on without being devastated.

Remember the example I gave about a person who does a 9-10 on mirroring? You know what makes that person so resentful and had to deal with later in the relationship? They say this "I truly went out of my way to conform to everything he wanted. He contorted me into a pretzel & it still wasn't good enough."

See? You did a 9-10 in over-pursuing, over-reaching, over-pleasing with the best of intentions.

This is the human nature you want to better understand.

I am grateful for your help by the way & I apologise if I come across as confrontational. I am still hurt & I am still trying to get my head around what happened & whether there is something I could salvage out of this relationship.

I do understand where you are coming from... I was in your shoes a long time ago.

If you want to explore salvaging a relationship, you should open a thread on "Bettering". One thing you will here is that rebound relationships are very risky - she hasn't process the failing of her current relationship - she could very well take you in to help her heal.  This is why most daters won't date someone straight out of a divorce - those are extremely high risk relationships.

[I Am Redeemed]

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