F.O.G. And Boundary issues

[PeaceMom]

I really like specific examples and am thinking about JYW’s advice (per his awesome T). I’ve been w/DS24 dBP1 w/ many BPD traits for 4 hours in car today. I’m looking at this time like a gift to him (of my time and my ears).

He has been extremely negative with his black and white thinking and self loathing for most of the 4 hours. I’ve been trying to be a neutral observer and it appears that as a fear develops in his mind, he verbally expresses it w/B&W thinking and self loathing statements. Ultimately he will then get to the “projection” point where he says “you and dad must have been doing heavy drugs to have such an ugly son, Etc...”

So, I am finally able to pretty much figure out the When and the How to his mental state. This seems to almost be cyclical, but darn if I can’t figure out the cycle. These deep beliefs seemed to be ingrained in him-gotta be rich to be happy, gotta be extremely handsome to get a beautiful GF, etc.

My FOG is Fear that he goes out in the world w/healthy, nonBP, nonBPD folks and always lives with these skewed beliefs which make him miserable. I’m Obligated when gifting him with my generous listening to try to help him balance his B &W thinking or else I’m not being true to my own core beliefs.  My Guilt is that our DNA + psycho + social + trauma created this in him.

Now, realizing all this and thinking about JYW’s castle/moat example-If I let him in, I can certainly set the boundary that I won’t converse about his feelings of no self worth, fear of winding up alone, self-loathing. But honestly, he’s not raging at me or asking me for anything (like some BPD’s), he’s simply trying to shovel some of his #%^* on me-not really in a mean, hateful way as it’s just too overwhelming for him to tolerate all this self-hatred and fear.

I listen because I’m compassionate, he’s my kid, he’s struggling and I see it as a challenge to try to help him see GREY. This has gone on for years, but generally he’s still B & W as ever. I’m the one who feels like an idiot for continually listening and trying to offer other ways of seeing things. Should I give up?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[FaithHopeLove]

Is giving up the only option ? Is detaching with love possible?

[PeaceMom]

Faith,
By “giving up”, I meant give up trying to offer other examples, suggestions and some grey. How can I detach with love when it’s how he shares during my “generous listening” time when he’s allowed in my castle?

I can say “hey I’m not going to listen to or discuss what’s bubbling up inside you right now and about to simmer over w/me being the only one you trust enough to share the very core of your being, let’s talk about politics.”
(I’m joking with myself here, obviously, but really n Ed to sage advice). I’ve detached with love the other 20 hours of us living in same home together. But just don’t see how I can play along differently. Maybe my post didn’t make sense.

[PeaceMom]

P.s. if he didn’t live here, this would not be an issue. If I saw him once a week for 3 hours, I’d more happily give the gift of generous listening and validation of his feelings of self loathing and fear of being alone. It’s that we are together daily and he struggles daily so shares with his trusted confidant -ME:(

[wendydarling]

I'm sure JYW will jump in here.

Boundaries, when I joined here I was so confused by the discussions around boundaries, I struggled to follow important conversations, how to engage, I was lost. Till I realised what everyone was sharing, I had learnt from my family, since a toddler my personal values have served me well. Second nature? My DD respects and trusts. That said I have a DD with BPD and more, she is doing well, it is a challenge.

When I joined here I asked myself what is my starting point, my strengths and weaknesses, with DD's dx. DD was SI, ER.. I started here


Listen with empathy not that I am not empathetic, that my DD needs a double dip and during early DBT she said exactly that back to me, I need double validation, follow through  

Not sure if you'll follow me, I make sense.

My Q to you, is what is YOUR personal starting point? Rather than your sons.

WDx  

[PeaceMom]

WDx,
My starting point is that I’m willing to let him into my castle but I’m not sure I’ll ever truly be ok with listening to this illogical talk. He’s had the same talk with me 1000 times. I can validate with “it is scary for most people to feel they will wind up alone” “is there anything you can do differently to try to meet a nice girl?”
“I have some suggestions if you are ever interested” “B has a nice GF and he is a waiter, not a successful businessman”.
These are ways I give double helpings of Validation.

Honestly, I wonder if his brain is stuck and this rumination loop is never going to change, if so, do I just accept that this will be my generous listening time? Deja Vu every time I let him castle.
BiPolar is a mood issue, so being negative and blue is part of it. You add in some BPD features and you get the self loathing and fear of being alone and lonely.

I suppose I will kindly tell him he’s welcome IN but since I disagree with his beliefs, I can’t discuss them. I’ll offer him therapy again (he’s done it off and on for 10 years).
Thanks for responding!

[FaithHopeLove]

By “giving up”, I meant give up trying to offer other examples, suggestions and some grey. How can I detach with love when it’s how he shares during my “generous listening” time when he’s allowed in my castle?

I am sorry. I seem to have misunderstood what you meant by giving up. I think maybe there is a limit to how many examples and suggestions one can offer someone who is struggling so much with their emotions. Short of emotionally detaching how do you think you can become more comfortable with your generous listening time with your son?

[PeaceMom]

You both asks intriguing questions. WDx-I took the Empathy test you sent the link to and I’m “mildly impaired” when it comes to my DS.

I suppose to become more empathetic means I have to temporarily wear the cloak of immense fear and self loathing. Wow-that sounds awful.

I had never read that particular link you forwarded and was unaware of the study that showed the #1 most important piece in the BPD healing process is having a truly empathetic pivotal
Person around. And empathy is actually feeling what they feel.

This seems different than simply validating-and much more uncomfortable and heavy.  Of course I’ve always identified with his pain, but to protect myself, have held that pain st arm’s length. Who the heck wants to hate themselves even for 30 minutes?

I would love to know how others here jump in with deep empathy on a daily basis and not become one of the walking wounded themselves. This seems like a huge task maybe beyond what a mom can handle.

[livednlearned]

He’s had the same talk with me 1000 times.

After 1000 times, I assume this is who this person is.

Validation probably isn't going to change his values or his cup half empty view of life.

My husband and I do this thing where we short cut our most common conversations to  "x comment" because we both know what we're going to say  

My son is a contrarian and will take the opposing view to almost everything I say. "You're a contrarian" was even met with "No I'm not."  

I suppose I will kindly tell him he’s welcome IN but since I disagree with his beliefs, I can’t discuss them.

When my son goes on a negative high-falutin rant (usually about how bad something is for the planet, or politics, etc.) I nod my head and basically say, Is that so. Even if I agree with him, somehow he finds a way to uncover an argument or difference in what I said or how I said it or whether I used proper grammar 

It's hard, tho. I spent 15 minutes with him yesterday and our dynamic is so entrenched. I overfunction and he underfunctions and eventually I get frustrated. I'm trying to debrief in my mind what emotions are being conveyed and try to get out of the rational loop that goes nowhere. Yesterday I said to him, "I need a time out. Let's pick this up later after I've eaten and am more grounded." I think he respects me more as I focus on taking care of myself. If I try to focus on him, he just digs in and pushes against me. He's on the spectrum so tends to be a rigid thinker predisposed to negativity and I'm at peace with that part. It's trying to get him to do something that has me tied in knots.

[PeaceMom]

LNL,
I hoped you might chime in here as you deal with rigid brain issues in your house. I’ve often wondered if a spectrum diagnosis would have been something I could have dealt with better. I keep falling into rational /logic mind and I only get rational logical responses back from him about 1/4 of the time.

Thank you for pointing out that no amount of validation and empathy is going to change a rigid brain. Why the heck has no doctor or therapist EVER said that. I’ve felt compelled to continue with my positivity, validation, example-giving, option-providing M.O. to no avail. I will start using the “Is that so?” response.

It sucks to be him! Thanks again for helping me process this and what my role is here.

[livednlearned]

no amount of validation and empathy is going to change a rigid brain.

At least not in that moment. My son has blown my mind a few times when he reflects back on something and I realize, dang. He is rigid, yes. And he is also capable of growing.

What happens when you listen or hum or appear to be not engaged?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[PeaceMom]

If he’s not speaking directly to me in a convo, but he’s just kind of venting out loud, I can ignore and not engage. He doesn’t chase me around trying to get me to do something for him like we know a lot of BPD’s do. I guess I’m thankful for that. If he were just an aquatinted who didn’t live here, I’d choose to avoid him as I am an optimistic realist and avoid negative people when I have a choice.

[wendydarling]

Hi Peace  

I had never read that particular link you forwarded and was unaware of the study that showed the #1 most important piece in the BPD healing process is having a truly empathetic pivotal Person around. And empathy is actually feeling what they feel

It's overwhelming the amount of amazing info and I think we can easily gravitate to what we think is most relevant to us when we land here, it's natural. Listening with Empathy is the first in the list of tools to work down, chronologically. My DD fell off the cliff dramtically from functioning to crisis in what seemed like to me a day, it was shocking so Listening with Empathy was crucial to be able to connect with my DD. Incredibly powerful. We all arrive here with a different starting point, don't we.

I suppose to become more empathetic means I have to temporarily wear the cloak of immense fear and self loathing. Wow-that sounds awful.

Not so much as wear a cloak temporarily than the experience of understanding another person's condition from their perspective, yes feel what they are feeling, if that be immense fear, self loathing, connect and not be frightened by their feelings, cos they are looking to us for assurance. Be open, grounded, balanced and caring. I've learnt I need every tool, lesson available here and the skill I'm learning is blending them, using them in the right situation. I can be empathetic while communicating my boundary by her feeling me back, mutual trust and respect. Peace I'm still learning with everyone day by day.

My FOG is Fear that he goes out in the world w/healthy, nonBP, nonBPD folks and always lives with these skewed beliefs which make him miserable.

I understand, FOG... Know there is a healthy BPD supportive community out there for your son who understand and are learning, supporting each other. My DD is one, Jan 2018 she set up her twitter account, sharing what 'BPD' is for her and promoting DBT skills, also reaching out for support and understanding herself, your son is not alone. Just like us parents here.

At least not in that moment. My son has blown my mind a few times when he reflects back on something and I realize, dang. He is rigid, yes. And he is also capable of growing.

I think this is it, our kids can grow, in my experience my DD was 26 when she was ready, crisis hit. She did attend an eating disorder clinic at 18, (13 years ago) they did not join the dots, BPD and more!  Four years after dx, through DBT she's finally working through, managing her eating disorder.

Peace, LnL, your boys, I wonder if they are going through differentiating from their Mums, parents? Like we all do?

If he were just an aquatinted who didn’t live here, I’d choose to avoid him as I am an optimistic realist and avoid negative people when I have a choice.

Your son may chose you because you are optimistic, you fill his cup with hope. I too am optimistic by nature and hope.

WDx

[PeaceMom]

Thanks WDx -many things you point out resonate with me. I will carefully test the waters of true empathy in feeling his pain and fear temporarily. It’s becoming apparent to me that I have PTSD from all his hospitalizations, manic cycles, instability. I’m jumpy when I’m with him and it’s hard to truly exhale and be the fun loving curious person that I am inside.

He has always been very needy, never satisfied, andcrarely “fixed”. I like being around “fixed” people. It’s very soothing to me and makes me feel fixed, too. I think that’s why I enjoy yoga -they teach you how to center yourself.

I need to learn more about differentiating. Maybe he’s been slower to do that bc of all his unstable periods. Can you send any articles on that so I can see what it looks like. I guess my 3 other kids (even DD19 uBPD) did that more smoothly and at more typical ages.

Tell me more about the BPD community for adults? Are there online support groups? Are you allowed to share any specific ones here?

I’m so pleased your DD is becoming healthier with each passing year. You encourage me:)

[livednlearned]

What happens when you tell him how you feel?

"I feel sad. Hearing this makes me feel an overwhelming feeling of sadness."

And then stay there with that. No need to explain, just respond with how his comments make you feel. You're saying this for you. He may sail right past you and not even acknowledge, at least not right away (especially if you are changing a pattern he's used to).

His feelings (I am not enough, our family is not good enough, I will never be enough, broken things cannot be fixed) are sad. You feel sad sensing the emotions in what he is saying. That is empathy. It also teaches him that what he says has an impact on people around him, you in particular. And maybe even teaches him that he is saying something sad (not enough = sad).

My lovely little rigid thinker needs help expressing and understanding emotions. He also (due to ASD) appreciates when I am being forthright (I do this carefully). And if I need to, I give him parameters. Meaning, I tell him exactly how the limits work.

"Take one more paragraph to get your point across then let's switch to a different topic. I'm feeling ______ and need a time out."

Or "Let's agree to disagree. My tank is empty."

I also learned to use timing more strategically. S18 is a natural born debater and I've learned to hear him out and then revisit things later when I'm cooled off.

I get what you're saying about the castle/moat metaphor and allowing your son in. Using that metaphor, I wonder if it's more like having the conversation at the drawbridge then letting him know you're going to head back to the castle for a tune-up.

We are super important in our kids' lives and yes, we probably parent longer than so-called normal families because our kids are special needs. We let go more slowly and carefully, often without anyone helping us understand how to do this detaching with love thing in a practical way. It could be that we have castles with our drawbridges down, and we teach ourselves how to lower and raise them as needed, hopefully modeling for our kids how to treat us (and treat others, and maybe even themselves one day)  

[PeaceMom]

LNL
I’m going to try exactly what you suggested. I don’t recall him ever asking how something he says makes me feel, other than assuming I feel some how “guilty” for birthing him with this Dysthymia. He was diagnosed with that when he was 7 and they immediately put him on Zoloft. His countenance changed overnight from a bit of a frown to a sweet face. I remember telling the doc “They should name a country afterZoloft”
Well, after being on it for years he starting saying he couldn’t feel his true feelings, felt plastic, etc ... Now we know anti depressants can push one into BP mania so it’s a huge No No for him now.

I was learning a bit more about spectrum disorders and I just don’t see it. So dysthymia, BP1 and many BPD traits, plus Body Dysmorphia, it is. My search continues for anything that might help. Trying IGg food sensitivity testing next as my Functional Medicine doc had me do it and I’m sensitive to a few biggies, maybe he is too!

Again, I so appreciate the feedback here. It’s immensely eye opening.