She is taking more than her share of family resources

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339161.0

Empath, good point well made. I think what she gets out of it is a sense of being controlled. I have said before in other posts that she lives in a metaphorical cage, I have opened the door (I think) and tried to show her that the door is open, but she likes to shut the door and then scream "I'm captive... I'm captive!" quite a few people have said to me in the last few months "I just don't understand why she doesn't get on with it!".

FF, there are logistical reasons why working in a school admin role is a better solution than working in a job that might fully utilise her skills. Clearly having the school holidays off is a big plus. The other alternative would be to utilise her skillset as a contractor or set up her own business and offer advisory services. She's never seemed keen on this option. Her current job pays pretty much minimum wage... However, her desire to take lower paid work predates the complications of children and quit a £40k a year job back in 2005 taking 6m out to seek other more vocationally gratifying work in the environment sector. At the time there was conflict between us because I couldn't understand why she needed to quit her job to look for another role rather than look for a job whilst being employed like the majority of people. She claimed at the time that she was unhappy and needed a break. I was frustrated at the time that there was no discussion and it was just assumed that if I loved her I would support her during the transition. She's always demanded 'special' treatment.

I have never seen contributions coming to me. She pays for some food shopping (now a rarity) and buys clothes for the kids, however there's a consistent flow of about £1k a month going in her direction from my account which exceeds a reasonable once a week food shop (which for the last 6m+ she hasn't been doing) and a reasonable children's clothes spend. I was thinking back to when we were first married, we were kitting out a house and needed some lumpy bits of furniture. We went for quality at her request and that was a pretty solid choice I don't regret... but, I'd put it on my credit card and then pay it all off with savings I'd made. I'd also cover all the bills and mortgage payments. We earned similar money yet I seemed to be the one who paid the bills and bought the nice items for the house which cost £000's. She bought the majority of the food AND a significant amount of clothes. I guess I felt it was my duty to be breadwinner and cover these kinds of costs and plan for the future.

I have friends who both contribute equal amounts to the joint account irrespective of how much they earn and whether or not they are working part time to look after kids. I'm not sure that's 'fair' either.  

I read this some time back www.nicolamethodforhighconflict.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/The-Workbook.pdf I thought it illustrated the unwritten promises people make to each other in a partnership and one of the things that stuck in my mind was promise #3. Not only are we expected to offer things in a loving and caring relationship, but we're also expected to not take more than our fair share of family resources... and my use of the word resources is intentionally broad.

1. THE SECURITY PROMISE:
We will make an emotionally secure environment for our partner.

2. THE MUTUAL SUPPORT PROMISE
We will treat our partner's needs as importantly as we do our own.

3. THE FAIRNESS PROMISE
We will not take more than our fair share and we will share decision-making
power with our partner.

4. THE CONTROL PROMISE
We will not impose our personal beliefs on our partner.

5. THE ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR PROMISE
We will act in a socially-acceptable manner according to our peers, culture,
community or spiritual beliefs.

[Enabler]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339161.0

Empath, good point well made. I think what she gets out of it is a sense of being controlled. I have said before in other posts that she lives in a metaphorical cage, I have opened the door (I think) and tried to show her that the door is open, but she likes to shut the door and then scream "I'm captive... I'm captive!" quite a few people have said to me in the last few months "I just don't understand why she doesn't get on with it!".

FF, there are logistical reasons why working in a school admin role is a better solution than working in a job that might fully utilise her skills. Clearly having the school holidays off is a big plus. The other alternative would be to utilise her skillset as a contractor or set up her own business and offer advisory services. She's never seemed keen on this option. Her current job pays pretty much minimum wage... However, her desire to take lower paid work predates the complications of children and quit a £40k a year job back in 2005 taking 6m out to seek other more vocationally gratifying work in the environment sector. At the time there was conflict between us because I couldn't understand why she needed to quit her job to look for another role rather than look for a job whilst being employed like the majority of people. She claimed at the time that she was unhappy and needed a break. I was frustrated at the time that there was no discussion and it was just assumed that if I loved her I would support her during the transition. She's always demanded 'special' treatment.

I have never seen contributions coming to me. She pays for some food shopping (now a rarity) and buys clothes for the kids, however there's a consistent flow of about £1k a month going in her direction from my account which exceeds a reasonable once a week food shop (which for the last 6m+ she hasn't been doing) and a reasonable children's clothes spend. I was thinking back to when we were first married, we were kitting out a house and needed some lumpy bits of furniture. We went for quality at her request and that was a pretty solid choice I don't regret... but, I'd put it on my credit card and then pay it all off with savings I'd made. I'd also cover all the bills and mortgage payments. We earned similar money yet I seemed to be the one who paid the bills and bought the nice items for the house which cost £000's. She bought the majority of the food AND a significant amount of clothes. I guess I felt it was my duty to be breadwinner and cover these kinds of costs and plan for the future.

I have friends who both contribute equal amounts to the joint account irrespective of how much they earn and whether or not they are working part time to look after kids. I'm not sure that's 'fair' either.  

I read this some time back www.nicolamethodforhighconflict.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/The-Workbook.pdf I thought it illustrated the unwritten promises people make to each other in a partnership and one of the things that stuck in my mind was promise #3. Not only are we expected to offer things in a loving and caring relationship, but we're also expected to not take more than our fair share of family resources... and my use of the word resources is intentionally broad.

1. THE SECURITY PROMISE:
We will make an emotionally secure environment for our partner.

2. THE MUTUAL SUPPORT PROMISE
We will treat our partner's needs as importantly as we do our own.

3. THE FAIRNESS PROMISE
We will not take more than our fair share and we will share decision-making
power with our partner.

4. THE CONTROL PROMISE
We will not impose our personal beliefs on our partner.

5. THE ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR PROMISE
We will act in a socially-acceptable manner according to our peers, culture,
community or spiritual beliefs.

[Notwendy]

When someone is in victim perspective, I think "fair share" is skewed.

[Enabler]

Yes, if someone is hallucinating and believes they're being chased by axe wielding monsters they probably think it's totally reasonable to take your car and drive at 100mph...

[Notwendy]

I'm talking about her spending. My mother wore designer clothes and Dad shopped at bargain stores. She was high dollar, he bought generics at the pharmacy because he "couldn't afford " the name brand. The only shirts he wore in his later years were shirts people gave him as gifts, many of them were bought by me. BPDmom has a closet full of designer items.

Dad planned well for their elder years and she's quite comfortable. Still, she feels like a victim, that he wasn't fair to her. If she thinks it's unfair, then it is to her.

Reality looks a lot different. But if feelings =fact, then it just wasn't fair.

So if she feels you are controlling, no matter how much freedom she has, then you are controlling. And if she feels you are cheap, no matter how much money you give her, you're cheap.

You can't change her thinking.

[Notwendy]

This seems like the perfect arrangement for your wife. She gets the lovely clothes, out with friends while you clean up, and an affair on the side.

She may have threatened divorce and even started to make plans, but by dragging this out- which she may do indefinitely, she gets the best of both worlds, your support, and her carefree affair.

OM gets a girlfriend with no obligations.

I know this is your choice to stay with this marriage the way it is, but it's also beneficial for both of them, and I don't see an incentive for either of them to change.

[Enabler]

What happens when her support network see through it all... which they are starting to? What then? Does she just switch 'the people'? More than likely!

How can she justify staying with me given the things she has said about me?

I guess it's a touchy feely business of working out when I should squeeze the various issues and reduce the comfort.

[formflier]

So...it seems clear what the incentive is for wife and OM to continue the arrangement as it is. 

What is less clear to me is what the incentive is for Enabler to continue sending money to his wife and OM.

Trying to sort out how to even ask the question or describe my point of view. 

It's one thing for a spouse to take their own resources and do things (like the affair, overspending) that the other spouse doesn't agree with.  It seems to be a completely different matter for the cheated on spouse to be funding the affair, doing the housework..etc etc

Enabler, what is your incentive to keep doing this? 

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

F.O.G.

When this all kicked off in late 2016 I was deep in FOG. As far as I was concerned this was all my fault and although she was clear as day doing things that were in my mind 'wrong', they were a function of me 'not treating her right'. I know that other members have experienced this before, long periods of being attacked for stuff, like getting angry about things that normal people would get angry about. I didn't have a clue about the dynamic I was in and had spent decades coming out the bad guy... heck I even believed it. I straighten things out in my head but by this point I'm 12-18m behind the game and VERY VERY much on the back foot.

Every inch of ground I have had to fight over. Ground I lost 10-15years ago. Unhealthy dynamics that have been going on for soo long. My incentive is that through all the twisted arguments and weird dynamics we've had over the last 22years we've created a world for ourselves. We have 3 wonderful kids, a great home and a relatively comfortable lifestyle. Our 3 kids don't deserve being part of a split family (as much as they don't deserve to be part of a dysfunctional one either). Our relationship goes in waves, we have periods of extreme squeeze and stress and then poof... all good for a while and things move forward at a frantic pace like we're making up for lost time. So, I'm protecting or guarding what we have made together and managing her ability to destroy it... the kids and our stuff.

In a similar way to being accused of abusing our kids, I had to quickly learn a different way of managing the kids, a way that wouldn't put me as perpetrator on the Karpman... and that worked. That was my priority and the one I felt the most important to tackle at the time... I saw my life as a giant decision tree, all the leafs as outcomes. I focused on my least tenable outcomes, lets call that the left hand side (High conflict divorce, parental alienation and being left financially crippled for decades to come)... the right hand side was not even considered, so... in essence do whatever it takes to avoid bad outcomes and if that means let her gorge herself on cake elsewhere then so be it, that can wait.

Now, I find myself moving from left to right on the outcomes tree. After feeling like I have neutralised some of the outcomes I can now start moving towards neutralising other outcomes... some of the areas I have let slide I now need to rein back in, in a controlled way. First stop is finances, then time... all the while preserving the zone where a marital relationship can thrive and should reside and marginalising behaviours that don't belong in a healthy marriage... again, I stress at any time she can pull the rip cord and get herself a divorce finale , at any time she can up stumps and run off with her lover, at any time she can make choices.

I suppose I have to be realistic and differentiate what I can and can't dictate within the realms of preserving a zone where a marriage can exist. Should I be supporting her financially given that she is looking after our children? Should I be supporting my kids via her? Yes to both I think. How easy is it for me to differentiate between those expenses and other expenses... very challenging unless she chooses to be accountable and more importantly not attempt to distort the truth, all the while attempting to manage accusations of abusive control... and yes, that is F(ear), because I'd be totally crackers not to fear the damage further accusations can do. So, I may well be funding things that I don't want to in the same way that when I give money to Tear Fund I'm likely inadvertently giving some money to a corrupt official who's lining his pocket in Northern Nigeria. All I can do is attempt to shine lights on things whenever the opportunity arises.

I have the ability to endure a heck of a lot of misery... and I feel O(bligated) to do so for my kids, and 'the marriage'. My W may have chosen to leave 'the marriage' and wander in the wilderness, but that doesn't stop me from tending to it whilst she's away. In fact I'd go further than that. I feel obliged and willing, to seek happiness in that space whilst she's gone, to provide a loving caring environment for my kids to have a wealth of opportunity to grow in a health (as possible) manner... and I sense this is painful for her to watch. As I have said to another member recently... I also have an obligation to ensure that this space I have tended in her absence has barriers to re-entry... she may never choose to re-enter and that's up to her... But if she does... well, that comes with conditions... conditions she's not even aware of yet.

Enabler   

[formflier]

If she is "caring" for you kids in a way that supports/highlights your values...I'm right there with you.  I've made similar decisions in my marriage/finances.

Is she really doing that or is she doing the bare minimum and leaving the rest (majority) to you.

It appears to me she treats her household "duties" as a job and has a mentality of doing the bare minimum.  So she can maximize her "outside" time (most likely with OM)

What are the ages of your kids again?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Not an unfair assessment. That said, she is also trying to raise them in line with her values, and as confused as her values often appear in practice there is good intention, albeit when push comes to shove she is self serving. It's a function of whether or not there's any pushing and shoving resulting in her putting her agenda ahead of the kids. The best mum in the world when there's nothing else more attractive to avert her attention... when there is... dropped like a stone.

D11, D9, D6.

[formflier]

My youngest two are girls...D9 and D6.

I can identify with the angst that goes along with "what's the best thing I can do in this situation (or this decision), when it is framed in what you "want" for your girls.

 

Please don' take my posts, questions and comments as "criticism" of you or your decisions, but as an attempt on my part to be helpful with your "critical thinking" and deliberately examining alternate courses of action (many of which are uncomfortable)


As I think back over your threads the biggest thing that seems to standout to me is the "teenager" analogy (I believe Notwendy was the first to use that description). 

Perhaps it's wise to "stay there" with that point of view for a while and see where that goes.  Perhaps if you are not ready to consistently "cut the money flow", maybe there are other things that can be consistently worked on/done (like dishes).

Since we are a few months into "being more restrictive" on money, I'm worried that there is/may be "intermittent reinforcement" going on or perhaps she is not getting the message you intend to send.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I don’t take your questions as criticism, they are always thought out and considered. I want to cover all blind spots.

I think if I had to identify the issue with ‘the money’ or in fact any boundary, I fall foul of attempting to be reasonable. As I mentioned before, since I can’t easily filter money or time or dishes that I want to do or that I don’t want to do since it’s so blended in noise I tend to air on the side of folding.

For example, let’s take dishes...

W runs out the door saying “I’m going to a church meeting, didn’t have time to do the dishes, could you help me out”. Now, she could be lying about going to a church meeting, there’s no way I can prove this; the church meeting may end at 21:00 and she might go to the pub with OM till 00:00 or back to his for some naked cuddles, again, I don’t know. Or, she could go to the meeting and then go to the pub with the meeting attendees, OM may not even be there and it could all be a figment if my imagination. Similarly the “I didn’t have time”, why was that, I don’t know for sure, maybe it’s because she was doing something with the kids, was she having a shower and shaving all her bits and bobs for a special show for OM... I don’t know although I see snippets of evidence that COULD be the case. Nothing is concrete, nothing is factual... plausible deniability. Mixing seeing OM with going to church!

All I know is that there has been deceit and attempts to manipulate my reality. Acting in this vague space with an absence of facts is treacherous. In most cases I only find out at a much later date that I have enabled. Had I had the facts at the time I’d have acted utterly differently.

Another complication is that I know things through being an information sponge she doesn’t expect me to know. Eg she thinks I knew about her £700 clothes spend because I have access to her bank accounts (which I don’t)... actually it’s because she left the receipt lying around. She takes offence to me keeping tabs on her, I guess that’s the narcissistic injury me knowing about her deceit inflicts.

[formflier]

W runs out the door saying “I’m going to a church meeting, didn’t have time to do the dishes, could you help me out”.  

No.

I'm pretty sure even over yonder across the pond that's still a complete sentence.

Let's do "what if".

What if you were responsible for the messes you and kids made "under your rules" and "your time"?

Just leave the rest, use paper plates if needed.

What if your new boundary/rule is..

"If she plans ahead for the need for extra help, you will listen and help her problem solve."  Yet last minute requests (which by definition you can't "think through"...because last minute) you will skip over and let her problem solve on a timeline that suits her."

Switching gears.  You are realizing how over the years she has switched the "structure" of things and mostly painted you into a corner.

You can either...

1.  Walk across the paint and blow off the mess.  (ff style)

2.  Start painting a different picture.  (mostly what I'm seeing you doing)  

You've had success doing this, I guess what I'm saying is you need to pull out the paint brush and keep painting, regardless of her opinion.

A new painting idea:  What if when she approaches you for money you take it as a conversation to schedule a conversation about money.  Then...pick a couple times she is normally "out on the town" as when you will be available with your computer on and spreadsheet open.

See how you are saying yes...but in a way that changes the structure?


Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I like that idea a lot

You get money when you clarify

That is controlling in her book, but reasonable in mine

[formflier]

I like that idea a lot

You get money when you clarify

That is controlling in her book, but reasonable in mine

Again...do we play by her book...or Enabler's book. 

Don't "buy into" her "rule book" for life. 

I'll take the example a next step.  I don't like the "you get money when you clarify".  Switch to.."you get  a pathway to money" when you clarify.

So...she overspends and needs "extra money".  You believe in her and offer to bring in a dollar (pound or whatever you guys use over there...) for every 2 extra she brings in.

She has an incentive...and you are part of it..only AFTER she has done her part.

You aren't forcing her, you are offering.

Best,

FF

[empath]

Enabler, she may not actually think that you are controlling as much as she says. When my h was in the thick of churchy life, he was telling folks all sorts of things about me that got him lots of sympathy and support for divorcing me. (how that all happened, I don't know) The crazy part of it is that he didn't actually think most of the things that he was telling folks - so then he was the poor, poor victim of their support for him divorcing me, and they were controlling.

In the aftermath, he doesn't think that I'm controlling or unwilling to work on things. He also knows that I'm not going to put up with his manipulation, and I'm not really concerned about what he says about me to others.

There's a balance between allowing for logical consequences of behavior and being open to relationship. Is there a way that you can pay for the kids' expenses directly without going through your wife?

[Enabler]

Great point Empath, and yes, I’m working on paying for things directly rather than it being a 2 step process. That said, this gives my W her whole income as disposable income which is vastly more than I get to consume on a monthly basis, but it’s probably the lesser of the 2 evils.

You could well be right about her truly believing it. I think she might want to believe it as you say since it’s one of the pillars that justifies her other behaviour... it makes the affair all to acceptable... the dissolution of guilt... hmmmm yum! 

[formflier]

  That said, this gives my W her whole income as disposable income which is vastly more than I get to consume on a monthly basis, but it’s probably the lesser of the 2 evils.
  

.

Explain this a bit more?

Wouldn't a "visible" account handle most of this.  You and she agree on a child activity.  You put in your "ratio" and she either does or doesn't put in hers.

Said another way...I can't imagine why you would want to pay ALL of your children's activities.

Certainly there may be things you feel strongly about that she doesn't want to fund, then you would be on the hook.

Same thing works "flipped" though.  You would never want her to be in a position of " I think you should pay for the kids to do this"  (especially if it's against your values)

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I see what you mean... joint account with joint contributions. Historically I have shied away from a joint account because of the possibility of it being abused as her slush fund. However it would certainly give more visibility over what I am and aren't contributing to.

[empath]

I like the idea of a joint account, too - with the stipulation that it only goes toward children. It would be a child support fund. If the funds start being used as a slush fund, there would be another option.

[formflier]

I see what you mean... joint account with joint contributions. Historically I have shied away from a joint account because of the possibility of it being abused as her slush fund. However it would certainly give more visibility over what I am and aren't contributing to.

This is for stuff she asks for ahead of time.  Her money goes in first..then your part comes in next.

This was one of my favorite things when I was a county manager.  There were a bunch of civic groups that the county supported, but they really hadn't grown any over the years.

So..I "flipped" the paradigm.  The county doubled their contribution (let's say it was a group fixing up houses for the elderly), yet for them to be able to "unlock" or "spend" any of the county money they had to bring in new contributions of $2 (If I remember right) to "unlock" $1 of county money.

We defined new money in this way. 

Lets say the group brought in 10 grand and you had a donor list of how they got that.  FF would have to give the same $100 he gave last year...and then an additional $100 would qualify as "new" money.  If enabler had never given before...his $100 would count as new money right away.

This helped the group with fundraising because they could say if you give us $2 for the elderly, we can guarantee to turn it into $3, because the county money was already "there".

This also was a great talking point for the politicians because they could talk about the increase in county money was able to "leverage" additional dollars.

Anyway...there is little downside, because if the fundraising failed..it would be on the group..not the county.  The county stepped up.

In this case...Enabler wife brings an idea.  Enabler steps up, yet leaving his wife to do the heavy lifting (which is really do reasonable budgeting)

So..she drops 400 pounds in the account.  Enabler drops 200 and the idea goes forward. 

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

I like the idea of a joint account, too - with the stipulation that it only goes toward children. It would be a child support fund. If the funds start being used as a slush fund, there would be another option.

My DH is a financial advisor and recommends "his, hers, and ours" account setup to all of his clients who ask his advice on the subject. The "ours" account is usually the household expense account but could also function to cover child expenses. Contributions can be made squirrel or proportional to income.

Empath, if you continue to directly pay all expenses, you are setting yourself up for an eventual unfair settlement. Also, you are (in a weird way) setting up your wife for unpleasant surprises later. Say your settlement requires that she pay half the children's expenses, and she is the one who moves out and establishes a new household...what happens when she begins to struggle with not having the discretionary "spend" that she has now? Better she wrestle with the reality of divorce finances now.