Part 2 Friends playing rescuer

[Enabler]

This is a continuation of a previous thread: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339287.0

Okay, so what do I know...

My primary source is WhatsApp ‘last seen’ and ‘online’ status. I can hear the sighs now but bare with me.

W turned off her last seen when she realised I was using it to see when her and OM had been chatting with each other late at night, well really it was middle of the night. Since both of them have now turned their last seen to private (Incidentally the only people I told about that I was doing this was my mates (who jumped up and down and said “Enabler why are you doing this? What information do you believe you are gleaning from this, they’re having an affair, so what? Move on!”) and my T, who was a little bit more neutral about it.) I can no longer verify when my W was last online. But, I can verify when groups of unconnected people are online, where she is the only common denominator. It’s a bit like detecting a black hole, you can’t see it as it doesn’t omit light, but you can measure the gravitational impact it has on other light omitting stars around it.

So, one of these non-connected groups is my mates and their wives. Now I know the characters involved in my friendship group and I know the types of characters who my wife attracts rescuing from. They are typically very feminist women who have a lien to hating men, people who have a history of having abusive men in their life or rescuing men. Then there’s others who might attempt to go into bat for me whom are militantly rational, like detail and like solving problems and making sure things are right and fair. The others want to stay the heck out of other people’s problems, get drunk, have a party and deal with their own plate of life.

Of my mates and their wives I can see a super super super high correlation with regards to last seen time stamps over a 1yr+ daily and intra day sample size. I’ve also seen situations where all are online together and others where my W plays WhatsApp ping pong between them and her. I likely suggests that some are in a WhatsApp group together. So okay... there’s a correlation, a high correlation... what does that mean, you still don’t know that you are the centre of conversation or even if your wife is actually involved... well apart from other non-connected groups are last seen at the same time consistently over a really long period of time... and non-connected individuals. Eg she received a Christmas card from one of old uni mates. It had the girls phone number in it, I found it strange that this card amongst all the other cards was singled out to be left on the side... so, I popped the number into my phone and bingo, that aligns as well.

Each of the little groups has its little phases based on what’s going on with her feelings. When she’s angry and wants to feel more angry she correlates with one group of friends, when she’s more spiritual and wants spiritual guidance as to whether or not she’s doing the right thing she seeks another group. When she wants legal advice she seeks another. I can almost preempt a storm based on who she’s correlated to... “she’s online with X loads, this is going to be bad news!”, and sure enough. We’ve had arguments and she’s gone upstairs to her room and WhatsApp’s lit up like a Christmas tree with online online online via all the usual suspects whom she might get a “poor you. Enablers such a bad bad person” message from and avoid those I know she wouldn’t get that message from.

I’ve tried to eliminate cognitive bias as much as possible eg does everyone being online at 17:00 mean anything at all since everyone’s on their way home from work. But does being online at 06:30 mean more... well it does when she’s on holiday and has no phone reception for a week and those same people who are online every morning without fail at 06:30 are not online till 08:00 etc etc

Additional comments from a couple of friends suggesting she had agreed to “meet up”, which was referred to as “a positive thing right?”. Other details mentioned that I know I hadn’t mentioned to them they knew. Lack of surprise at significant divorce events, suggestion that they knew what she wanted and how she felt...

So, do I know what has been said? No. Do I care whether or not people are cheerleading or attempting to help me or not? No. This is not about what they are saying, this is about having the integrity as a friend to say “hey buddy, I’m (or my Wife) talking to your W, just wanted to give the heads up out of respect for our long standing friendship”. My response to that would be “I appreciate you’re trying to do the right thing, however, I can’t have a situation where you are in the middle of this, therefore I would like to take myself out the equation. I’m not punishing you, I just don’t feel comfortable with the conflict of interests you’re running.”

There is it, in the words of Mr Fokker “it’s not snooping if you suspect foul play”.

Enabler

[Cat Familiar]

I’ll take a swing at a quick note.

I’m sure you all are aware that my wife has filed for divorce and this is something that I would prefer not to happen. I would hope that we could reconcile at some point and not destroy the home we’ve created for our children.

Perhaps some of you have been approached by my wife, asking for information about me. The thought of this makes me uncomfortable. I hope you would honor our friendship and not be a party to this.

I understand you have a long-standing friendship with my wife. I hope that you can continue to pursue that without surmising my thoughts and feelings.


The thought of divorce is devastating to me and not something I feel comfortable sharing with the group.

My wife has pursued this of her own volition and I’m concerned that she might try and persuade others to get me onboard with this plan.

[formflier]

My concern with your long letter was that it would seem like browbeating and could offend people who are in your corner.

and also..they (I) would wonder what's you main point.  7 people could take it several completely different ways.

I note when a group forms consensus and when they don't.

It appears there is consensus that some sort of communication is warranted/wise.   (I may be overstepping Waddams message by saying this..not sure)

There seems to be big debate on the method of communication.

Agreed?

Best,

FF

[formflier]

I'm stealing this from a recent advice column.

The antidote to weirdness is to be completely unweird and upfront. 

Think about that.

I like Cat's note.  I would still encourage trimming.  I would encourage adding the importance of the group (provide a pathway to "build" relationships).

Provide the reader every opportunity to take it positively..

Best,

FF

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Enabler-

I’ve read your proposed letter over a few times.  I understand wanting to communicate this information to your long-term friends, but I believe sending something of this sort could potentially be a lightning rod.  There’s too much room for misinterpretation- a read of accusations. 

If even one of these mates shows this to his W and she shows it to Enabler’s W, potential BOOM.  Lightning Rod.

If these mates don’t understand a thing about BPD, this won’t help them, and will make them look sideways at you... in a “what is he trying to hide?” sort of way...

These are your friends.  Remember that.  You CAN sit for a few moments with each of them and calmly explain that when you share information with them, you’ve GOT to know it’s to be held in confidence.  If you don’t feel that certain of these men are up to that task, then have a pint and move along.  No one has 7 “best friends” and confidantes anyway, do they? 

I get that during trying times we become desperate to control SOMETHING... anything.  I definitely learned who was and was NOT my friend during my divorce era (following my exH’s violent episode).  But my friend, this letter could backfire.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gems

[formflier]

I get that during trying times we become desperate to control SOMETHING... anything.  

Gems has found it! 

Consider some of the other suggestions.  I would hope you see them as an opportunity to extend a hand to each of the mates.  I would say a couple of the relationships will deepen because of it.

Avoid the lure of control.  Extend the hand of friendship.

Best,

FF

[Gemsforeyes]

And one more thing, Enabler... you give so much solid and supportive advice to others in our community here. 

Part of self-care is to step away from inflicting punishment on ourselves, right?  Even if, in the “wisdom” of Mr. Fokker “it’s not snooping if you suspect foul play.” 

You DO know that by looking at who’s on line when and trying to connect those dots, you’re hurting yourself.  Actually torturing yourself.   “Doctor, it hurts when I do this.”   Then don’t do this...  it’s not good to do things to heighten your pain and self-doubt.

Enabler, you deserve happiness and peace of mind; despite the fact that for whatever reasons you don’t quite believe that yet.

And to change things up a bit, just a bit... what if every so often you were to all of a sudden say... “Oops!  Gotta dash, No time for dishes, sorry hon!”  And go meet a mate for a pint.  Self-care, my friend.  (I know this is off-topic here, but I recall seeing she did this in another of your posts)

Warmly,
Gems

[Enabler]

I'm still mulling this. There's some things in Cat's version I wouldn't add in, mainly the feelings I might have about any eventual outcomes. The crux of the message is, if you're talking to her that's up to you, however, tell me, because then I'll stop talking to you because I don't want you to act as my go-between or 'other'. I saw them all on Saturday and it was a friendly and generally supportive evening. My 2 primary suspects were true to form, one dug for details but was supportive, the other slightly more frosty and critical making comments using vocabulary that had clearly come from someone else. I stuck to facts. They seemed to be miffed as to why I would keep a journal of events, they both seemed to be of the view that I could only be doing this to forge some path of destruction on my W rather what it's actual intent which is to preserve my sanity and at most be a defence against further unfounded accusations. They seemed not to grasp how reality can get so clouded when someone lies so consistently and so convincingly telling you white is black. Anyway, we didn't dwell on it too long and moved on.

Gemforeyes, I find nothing painful about improving my perception on my reality. What I've found is that the truth tends to catch up with you eventually so having a better idea about what it is. Risk management is less about being able to mitigate risks (some you can't mitigate) but a lot more to do with being aware of flying spanners. I hear your point we being a little more spontaneous, I suppose my thought process around this is that just because she does xyz doesn't mean that I should. I'm leading the way, if she chooses not to follow, that's up to her.

Enabler 

[formflier]

Why discuss it with them at all?   The journal.  Especially if they seem unsupportive or want to pick you apart.


To me, that seems like a bigger deal than if they are talking to your wife.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Well yes, maybe although I guess to an extent one has to frame the group of friends in the right way. We're pretty critical of each other, small weaknesses are exploited and we really could spend and entire afternoon ripping each other to pieces... which on the whole is of good nature. However, that critical nature sometimes doesn't know when to stop and just listen.

If you took the journal out of context, of didn't understand the context it would seem a bit creepy I guess. I could understand their stance that the rational conclusion to keep a journal might be to weaponise it. If you don't have a comparable example in your life it would be an obvious conclusion. I spoke to a work colleague, both of us have had similar experiences working with NPD hedge fund traders. He said "I used to keep a journal of every conversation I had with ABC, because 2 weeks later he'd start yelling at me in the office for running a position in the way he told me to some days or even hours before. It makes total sense to me." The lawyer in this one friend wants to find weakness in the argument or rationale.

Yes, you're right, I should just shut up and not talk about it... BUT, I'm naturally far far too open, especially when I have nothing to hide. I'll admit that it was gratifying to be cross examined by my friends and come out with them on the back-foot. I wasn't defensive, I didn't need to be. Still, regardless of the outcome of my changing their view (or not) I don't want them to go and use this conversation in some attempt to try and alter the view of my W or give my W free information. These are conversations she needs to have with me if there is any feint hope of the position changing... and if she chooses to not have those conversations and walk... well I'm okay with that as well.

Enabler

[formflier]

OK..much better view of the group and the "critical" aspect.

Handle this in person when/if it comes up again.

"Hey...I know we normally freely give criticism in this group.  As you can imagine, the unwanted divorce action is stressful and the criticism is unhelpful.  "

In the moment is so much better.

If too many probing questions  "Why do you ask?"  (crickets..let them struggle with it)

or

"I've had some people go snooping on behalf of my wife.  I'm sure that's not happening now...please kindly understand my existing feelings of betrayal are kinda raw."

 

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I like the confrontational approach. It fits with my mantra and also could open a wider topic of things I want and things I don't want. There was some talk of defining what "would make me happy" and "it can't be good for the kids", which was kinda interesting. I think (been to a beer festival) at one point I said "It's nice of you to define my happiness".

Enabler

[Enabler]

W sent me an email today asking to progress D process (again... 4th time in 3 years). Feel a bit frazzled.

Sent the message in full to friends since now seems a critical time to have trusted people around me.

Enabler

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Enabler-

I’m sorry... did she preface the request with why she thought now would be the time to progress with the D process?

Are YOU the one who’s supposed to handle the paperwork (in her eyes)?  If she wants the divorce, let her file it.. let her lead the way.

It’s good to have the support of your friends, and I’m thinking you forwarded the email to stymie any hearsay.  Is that correct?

Take care of yourself, your head, your heart.

Warmly,
Gems

[formflier]

W sent me an email today asking to progress D process (again... 4th time in 3 years). Feel a bit frazzled.

Sent the message in full to friends since now seems a critical time to have trusted people around me.

Enabler

Can you fill in some more details on what she was asking of you?

Was she informing you on what she is doing...?...or is she asking you to take action so that her plans (which you don't agree with) go smoother?

I get the vibe (from past understanding) that she is wanting your help.

What is you do nothing?  Can it go south for you?  I assume that it only takes one person to get divorced in the UK..so let her own the totality of it.

Switching gears:

So wife sent you an email and you forwarded that email to friends?  Do I have that right?

Did you ask them for something or just send it as and FYI?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

My W’s email was very formal, very simple and too the point. She gave (what I would consider to be lame) reasons as to why there had been a years delay in further progress on her part, she asked me to fulfil my responsibilities with regards to gathering financial information for discussion on a specific date in October. It’s not emotionally challenging work more printing bank statements etc. If I did nothing it would add fuel to abusive fire and provoke a high conflict divorce which is definitely what I want to avoid.

I am considering requesting we tell the kids to ensure this isn’t another pinch in the face for some perceived slight and actually a serious statement of intent. I can’t stop her divorcing me if that’s what she intends to achieve. I can’t rotect her from herself.

The email in question that I sent to my friends was separate. It was the letter at the beginning of this post, you and others said it was lengthy and formal.  I figured this was a good juncture to ensure I had a firm group of friends. I have had 3 out of 7 responses so far confirming no or minimal contact. All have seen it. 

[formflier]

If I did nothing it would add fuel to abusive fire and provoke a high conflict divorce which is definitely what I want to avoid.
 

You are buying into her thinking here. 

She wants a divorce and wants you to do the footwork.

Let her gather her own documents and act in a way that she approves of.

If you don't want to be divorced...don't do work that makes it easier.

The rest is FOG.  If don't do what I don't want to do I will be punished.  FOG.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I do my work, she does her work. She can’t gather my stuff, it’s my responsibility. It’s reasonable. It’s not FOG it’s necessary to avoid being obstructive. It’s not enabling 

[Cat Familiar]

Do you think she's serious about moving forward this time?

[formflier]

I do my work, she does her work. She can’t gather my stuff, it’s my responsibility. It’s reasonable. It’s not FOG it’s necessary to avoid being obstructive. It’s not enabling 

If you don't want a  divorce...why not obstruct where you can.  I'm sure there is a way she can "compel" you to do it.

Seriously..why do you want to "avoid being obstructive"?

If you provide the documents and she agrees in writing to give you majority parenting time or some other major concession in exchange for your work on something you don't want...then I would advise you to help.  Otherwise...say no.  Your actions will match your desires and values...as will hers.

Best,

FF

[Gemsforeyes]

I’m wondering... in order to measure her seriousness, request that she complete her portion and let you know when that’s been submitted to the attorney.  And then you will do likewise once you confirm this is a real thing?

Have you formally been served by a law firm (solicitor)?  Here in the US, a divorce process begins once a spouse has been served.  Then and only then do the financial disclosures begin.  But again, let her submit her paperwork first.

Thoughts?

Gems

[Enabler]

Cat - I think she’s serious this time. That said I think she was serious the last 3x... she seriously wants it at the moment. Will this change? I don’t know. Last time I completed the work because she was serious (similar email in Aug18). Then talking about it was too tough. This is partly why I want to suggest we tell the kids. They need to be told as the dynamic in the house is odd. It’s not odd hostile (from what they see) it’s just odd because it’s like 2 families in one house but they are part of both.

FF, obstructing is an attempt to control, I am not controlling and I am not going to attempt to be in control of my W... despite her accusations I never have been and never will be controlling. Also, if I attempt to control I am putting myself directly on the Karpman triangle where she wants me, where she can play victim and I can play perpetrator... I plan to stay neutral. I think she expects me to react badly to this, however, last night I went home and was small chipper, asked her how her day was and didn’t mention the email at all... and not did she. I asked her about her day yesterday (a day that I suspect she spent with OM because me and the kids were out all day... little signs like no plates being used in the dishwasher, receipt for 13:30 in the afternoon for food shopping which she only put in the fridge when she returned from “church” at 23:50... plus I found evidence she’d been to his house just before she sent last years email!).

I actually contacted OMs W yesterday and asked if their D process has received a bit of a hurry on recently. She told me that she hadn’t petitioned for D and “couldn’t be bothered since it was easier now he wasn’t living there”. I did find this surprising.

Gems, we have what’s called a Decree NISI which is the boy where the Judge says “there’s no reason you can’t get divorced”, it’s like ground zero for divorce proceedings. We received this in Nov18. The idea is that once you have this you attach a financial order which is the agreement on how you are to split assets (this is what she’s pushing for) and then a child order which sets out what happens with the kids (not being talked about yet). So the divorce process has definitely started, but really they are the bits she can do in the shadows without communicating with me. She can’t communicate with me, she can’t compromise or negotiate and just wants it to be done. She’s so conflict loving but conflict avoidant at the same time. It’s like she will metaphorically punch you in the face then run and hide. Her weapon of choice is silent treatment... for months and months and months.

Enabler

[formflier]

 

FF, obstructing is an attempt to control, I am not controlling and I am not going to attempt to be in control of my W... despite her accusations I never have been and never will be controlling. 

Exactly...!

How is that working out for you?

Do you like the results of not being controlling?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

I don't like the results of not being controlling... but what of holding onto something or someone that wants to be free?

I see the value in placing emotional road blocks in her way to ensure that she has own the decision and chew through emotional sludge, but not completing tasks it would be reasonable to complete given a divorce process will just lead to anger and reinforcing her deluded impression of being imprisoned. The point is the metaphorical cage does not exist, it never has, if I start to construct a metaphorical cage with obstruction and unreasonable behaviour I will be validating the invalid. Time may bring some level of eureka moment, emotional sludge might slow her down enough to bring that eureka moment, it may also heighten her anger towards me and her situation such that she's able to glimpse some of her own reflection somewhere... too much sludge and she will just go to lawyers whom will extract any element of reasonableness out of the equation.

Enabler 

[formflier]

I don't like the results of not being controlling... but what of holding onto something or someone that wants to be free?

So..try out being controlling for a while.  Although I would certainly not suggest that you try to control things you don't have control over.

Have you ever had control over your wife?  Will you ever?  (right...so...not talking about that)

Things:  That's a bit more complicated.  You have to rationally think through if the thing is yours and do you really control it...or merely influence it...or have no control at all..or is control difficult and does it take lots of energy.  (so let's leave this as one of my favorite MBA answers.  "It depends")

whom will extract any element of reasonableness out of the equation.
 

I'm not trying to be antagonistic...  .

I'm trying to be supportive in an emotional time when the FOG is rolling in.  Let me ask you a question.  Which FOG is more dangerous..the FOG you see..or don't see?

I would think lawyers would bring the ultimate in rationality, since emotional BS is out the window and you are dealing with "the law", which was not constructed out of emotion...but out of reason

Hmmm?

Never once have I gotten the vibe from you that you want or approve of the divorce.  We also know you can't stop it.

I don't see the "fact" that you don't "control the divorce decision" require or even suggest that you "cede control of your NO", just because you are aware that NO can be overridden.

I think in those situations loudly proclaiming with your voice and actions...NO...for the world to see, is even more important.

I think it far more likely for her to look at your compliance and production of things under you control as tacit approval and even shift it to "Enabler wants this, otherwise he wouldn't have..."

No is a complete sentence.  Very powerful.

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Now...stay with rational thought.

You have an idea of how this will turn out.

If she is offering a substantial benefit to you for your "compliance", then the rational decision is to consider "complying"

What I'm seeing your reasoning being is this  "If I don't comply with something I don't want, she will become unreasonable and I will have a horrible and contentious divorce."  Pretty close?

That doesn't strike me as rational.  That strikes me as an emotional argument that you don't want to deal with the possibility of "BPD unleashed".    When nons do that..what do we call it on bpdfamily?

Hmm?

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

What I'm seeing your reasoning being is this  "If I don't comply with something I don't want, she will become unreasonable and I will have a horrible and contentious divorce."  Pretty close?

That is a pretty good summary of my thought process. That said, I would add that I also believe that a marriage is more than just an economic and a practical agreement. For many people as do I, a marriage is about mutual affection (as a low bar) for each other. I have no desire to stay married to someone who hates me, purely on the basis of keeping our marital vows.

I have mentioned on other threads my desire to preserve a zone where marriage can exist, that's where my marriage is, that's what I committed myself to... almost as though the marriage is a separate entity or a separate room. I committed myself to preserving the room and keeping myself in that room... I didn't promise to pin her down, tie her up and keep some snarling beast in the room against her will, that's her prerogative whether she wants to or doesn't want to honour her own vows.

I can see benefits in questioning her seriousness, heck I can even see the point of ignoring her mail all together until she has a conversation with me about it on the basis that I have stopped taking her requests seriously as this is the 4th time I've put this information together.

Enabler

[formflier]

I can see benefits in questioning her seriousness, heck I can even see the point of ignoring her mail all together until she has a conversation with me about it on the basis that I have stopped taking her requests seriously as this is the 4th time I've put this information together.
  

Hey...I like this thinking.  Can you put the "decision" to respond off a few days?  Let's kick this around, let other people weigh in.

We all certainly have unique stories.  We also have similarities and I would say that if you were asked to come up with a list of things you stopped "biting" on (ignoring might be another word)...you could create a list.

I would further venture you would likely say you and your relationship got "calmer" as a result (maybe even "better")    

In my case I would use "better for me".

There are several financial emails my wife has sent me that I've only skimmed the first few lines and closed.  Seriously...I've never even read them.  I didn't delete them either as there is a "forensic" part of me that says I might one day think it a rationally good idea (or even emotionally) to go read them. (basically if there is an ad hominem attack in the opening, I close the email)

Here's how it plays out.  The less I respond to "writing" (text and email) about money, that pushes my wife to verbal.  She is more likely to be kind in verbal than in text.  That's better for everyone.

Plus..many times she is calmer.

A couple times she has threatened me over not responding.  My response is "I'm speaking and acting out my well though out values.  I suggest you do the same.  Do what you need to do."  Then I go on with my life.

Not once has a threat come true out of a handful of interactions like that.

She is pretty much aware that she blew it in a recent "money ask" when she vented in a group text that my children saw.  She knows me.  She knows my wallet is closed until she reconciles that.  I haven't been asked for money in a couple weeks.    (almost but not quite as good as a apology)

Best,

FF

[ct21218]

Enabler's wife is cheating on him and has requested some documentation.  I am confused by some of your advice FF to basically obstruct this request.  You are saying that Enabler's values are to stay married.  If there was no third person involved, that might be reasonable advice.  I see Enabler driving himself crazy looking at WhatsApp, dishes in the dishwasher and other evidence to figure out her behavior.  This is crazy making.  I don't see any comments that Enabler's wife will step away from the infidelity and work on the marriage. This has to be a horribly painful situation and he deserves some sanity in his life.  His value may not be to get divorced, but I seriously doubt his values are to live with someone who lies to him and cheats on him.

I would give her to paperwork and let her file for divorce. She can either choose to move forward or not.  I, personally, would not want to continue with someone who disrespects me on a daily basis.  Whether Enabler wants to or not is his decision and he can certainly not keep her in the marriage if that's not what she wants.

[GaGrl]

OK, I'm caught up,came I'll weigh in on putting any action off for several days until E's wife can be more explicit about this request being any different than the previous four (!) times.I

Also, I like the idea of A responding with the financial info only after his wife has completed here and copied him.

Has it occurred to you that this request is coming largely in response to her financial request of several weeks ago being turned down? She is having to regroup on financials, because E closed down the ATM.