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Author Topic: I think I’m beyond help right now. I’ve never been so low - Part 2  (Read 369 times)
RomanticFool
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« on: September 07, 2019, 12:17:16 PM »

Mod note:  Part 1 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339296.0;all

FF,

Well I’ve been to a much darker place than before. I understand more profoundly my issues around co-dependency and the high intensity attachment style around love and sex. These are not issues I am going to ignore. I have been close to completely unravelling and even making an attempt on my own life. I am glad that even in my darkest hour, when it was on my mind and in the thoughts of a desperate man, I didn’t go there in reality.

I am now in SLAA and have listened to every bit of advice that has been given to me there and here. Perhaps I haven’t acted on every bit of advice given to me, but I am not turning a deaf ear and pretending I can just dust myself off as if nothing has happened and get back on the horse. There will be profound change, there has to be. But I don’t intend on living like a monk for a year. I don’t intend on exiling myself from the world and womankind because of a particularly damaged woman whose pathology exposed my own abandonment and emotional attachment issues. What I intend to do is make a through examination of my own life while carrying on living it. I won’t involve myself in another relationship until I am healed from this one but not in exile, in the bosom of life.
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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2019, 01:48:13 PM »

There will be profound change, there has to be.

Such as?

But I don’t intend on living like a monk for a year.  

 I won’t involve myself in another relationship until I am healed from this one but not in exile, in the bosom of life.

What if healing takes more than a year?  

How long do you expect it to take?  

I'm concerned that you believe you need to heal "from the relationship".  As if "the woman" or "the relationship" did something to you.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2019, 02:03:57 PM »

Profound change is recognising my own issues and working not to repeat them.

The woman and the r/s did do something to me. That’s not to say I didn’t have a part in it but she did hurt me.
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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2019, 02:56:40 PM »

FF,

I don’t know how long healing will take. It could be a year or it could be a few months. However, I’m not going to grieve any longer than I have to. I’ve been grieving the r/s since she first ended it a few months back. I’ve suffered the stress of dealing with her push/pull and my own reaction to it. I don’t intend having another r/s in the short term. In any case I’m not able to transfer my feelings from one person to another in such a short space of time. It has been suggested to me on here that I transferred my feelings from my previous ex to the more recent affair. I don’t think that is true as I was in a relaxed frame of mind when she came into my life. However, what may be true is that I didn’t deal with the reasons why I was so hurt in the previous r/s and I brought the damage into the new r/s but feltnit was initially being healed, just by receiving what I thought was love in the early days.
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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2019, 02:57:23 PM »

Profound change is recognising my own issues and working not to repeat them.

Such as?


The woman and the r/s did do something to me. That’s not to say I didn’t have a part in it but she did hurt me.

I'm not for a second suggesting she and the relationship didn't have any effect on you.

Where do you think the majority of the damage and hurt came from?  Perhaps use percentages.

Best,

FF

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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2019, 03:03:36 PM »

It has been suggested to me on here that I transferred my feelings from my previous ex to the more recent affair. I don’t think that is true as I was in a relaxed frame of mind when she came into my life.

However, what may be true is that I didn’t deal with the reasons why I was so hurt in the previous r/s and I brought the damage into the new r/s but feltnit was initially being healed, just by receiving what I thought was love in the early days.

Weren't you saying a post or two up that you are "taking everything said to you onboard".

What exactly does that mean?

I raise this as an issue because I think "suggest" is a very lightweight word to describe the judgment of many on bpdfamily.

I also I get the feeling you believe the other relationship hurt you and you didn't recover.  I would challenge you to examine the sources of hurt in your life during the period of that relationship as well.  Apportion percentages.

That will help many of us (and perhaps you) form a better opinion about if you are "taking everything onboard".

Best,

FF
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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2019, 03:28:11 PM »

FF,

I can’t begin to know what percentages of hurt came from where. Not even sure I understand what you mean.

Taking things on board means listening and considering what people have said. Everybody is encouraging me to go to therapy and if I could afford it I would. I go to SLAA meetings at the moment to deal with the attachment issues and addictive nature of my behaviour in relationships as well as the co-dependency and making that person my be all and end all.

I don’t really consider judgement, I consider suggestions because this is the way the 12 step programme works and has been extremely helpful to me. I think judgement implies disapproval and I tend to steer away from that kind of rhetoric. While I have made many of the same mistakes over and over again in my life around this issue, I hope I am now coming out of the insanity a little and seeing sense.

It has been suggested to me in SLAA that I may discover that the pain I feel ends up being nothing to do with the woman/women in question but may go back to some unresolved childhood pain around the way I was patented. All I would say regarding that analysis is that may account for the emotional dependency but the sexual attachment is more connected with my addictive nature. When something feels good you want to keep doing it.
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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2019, 03:49:15 PM »

  While I have made many of the same mistakes over and over again in my life around this issue

Such as?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2019, 04:34:54 PM »

If you do the work, the best is yet to come.  Hang in there.
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« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2019, 05:21:10 PM »

Excerpt
. Such as?

Not protecting myself emotionally. Ignoring red flags. Telling a woman I love her too early. Becoming sexually obsessed. Becoming emotionally dependent. Being over reactive. Wearing my emotional damage on my sleeve. Not recognising possible BPD and not realising they have no interest in my emotional life.

Excerpt
If you do the work the best is yet to come.

God, I really really really really hope so.
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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2019, 05:25:39 PM »


I'm curious if integrity (or a related word) should  be added to the list?

Self control?

Best,

FF
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« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2019, 06:03:21 PM »

I think the lack of integrity and self control are symptoms of making the wrong choices in relationships. But yes, they should be added, of course. Not that my ex has shown much of either towards me but my wife certainly is a perfect example of integrity. I never would have cheated on my ex. I was totally in love with her, felt like I’d finally found Miss Right - WRONG!!!
« Last Edit: September 07, 2019, 06:08:57 PM by RomanticFool » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2019, 06:38:29 PM »

Hi RF. I’ve read a lot about what you have to say and express for quite a while. I didn’t know how to engage you in a meaningful way, so I simply read. You’ve gotten a plethora of good advice and solid support. Do you agree with that? Another good thing is that you’ve been responsive to it. You’re staying in the conversation and that’s important. That’s a good thing. With that being said, do yourself a kindness and step out of your emotions for a very short time. When you do, look at the members that have your back. The time and experience that they have here.

You’re hurting and confused. As I’ve said, I’ve followed your situation for some time. It’s a pattern. That’s ok. A lot of us here were, or are, stuck in our own. It comes with the territory. The pattern won’t stop unless you decide to look at yourself. Picking your wife and girlfriend apart won’t help you. Looking at yourself will.

It sounds like you need a break from romantically emotional attachments for a while. That might be a scary thing to consider. It was for me as well. I have abandonment issues and fears of being alone, but I’ve worked on myself and feel pretty good nowadays. There is a hump to get over, but once you do there is no turning back. Everything begins to improve the more that you can pay attention to yourself, your feelings and ultimately your best interests.

the challenge before you is to survive it, without fleeing to the same old unhealthy comforts.

once removed nailed it. It’s time to move forward friend.
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« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2019, 06:52:46 PM »

I think the lack of integrity and self control are symptoms of making the wrong choices in relationships.

Integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is watching. ~ C.S. Lewis

Integrity is doing the right thing regardless of the situation or the people around you.
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« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2019, 02:56:14 AM »

Integrity could also have been not getting married. It could further have been leaving my marriage last year when I fell in love with someone else, or still further it could be what I did: making a self sacrifice to stay with my wife. It’s relative to one’s situation. To characterise me as a person of no or low integrity illustrates that you don’t really know me.
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« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2019, 03:11:32 AM »

WTL,

I’m not confused at all. I am hurting and in a position that I didn’t expect to be in at this stage of my life. If for example this woman had been more reliable (I know that is unlikely given her pathology) then I could well find myself in a situation where I did indeed meet the love of my life and she felt the same about me and we could now be having a wonderful relationship. It does happen right? Perhaps my issues would not have been so exposed in the circumstances above and I’d be finding my way through a relationship that was based on love and respect, instead of rancour and recrimination. Perhaps I would have come on here and sought help when things became difficult. Or perhaps not but the strength of our mutual love could have sustained the relationship.

My feeling about dating a BPD is that 99% of the relationships break up. So all that we are really doing on this board is learning how to deal with damaged people and prolong the r/s as long as we can. After all we love our BPDs right? What is my ex wasn’t BPD and waited for me to leave my marriage? What if she was as good as her word and understood how difficult it is to admit that I married the wrong person and then when I found the right person it made absolute sense in life to be with that person?

Perhaps I wouldn’t have to go through this self searching examination and have my heart handed to me on  a silver platter because I would be with somebody compatible who accepted me, warts and all. I’m not saying I don’t have issues to look at, of course I do. But the situation I find myself in right at this moment is directly attributable to the pathology and lack of staying power of my ex in this relationship. Not to mention her physical, emotional and psychological abuse. To ignore that and just look at my own behaviour is missing the point somewhat. I could go another 16 years in AA, I could do years and years of self examination and then I could still meet the wrong person and do the dance again. I’ve seen it happen all over. We can not control other human beings. My happiness in a relationship isn’t just dependent on my behaviour, it requires meeting a person of integrity and good character also. There is no point only one of us having it. In life, to a large degree, we are depdendent on the good offices of our significant other as much as our own.

The thing I find the most intolerable about this whole situation is that my ex bagged me for eight months to be with her, told me she wanted to marry me and that her daughter should be our bridesmaid. Then when I told her I’m actually getting a divorce it was like talking to a stranger. To defend my ex’s behaviour and make me responsible for the fact that she threatened on a daily basis to meet other ‘options’ and kick me into touch just for standing my ground with her, is tantamount to my defending my own behaviour with regard to my wife. I don’t defend myself regarding my wife, I have treated her badly and deserve anything that she has to throw at me. But because she is a person of integrity and decency she won’t do anything to hurt me or herself. The real sadness in this relationship morass isn’t so much that my ex in an untrustworthy psychopath, but that I couldn’t feel the love for my wife that she deserves because of the three of us she is the better human being.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 03:28:42 AM by RomanticFool » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2019, 03:41:03 AM »

Excerpt
If for example this woman had been more reliable (I know that is unlikely given her pathology) then I could well find myself in a situation where I did indeed meet the love of my life and she felt the same about me and we could now be having a wonderful relationship. It does happen right?

im not sure thats realistic.

your attitude seems to be that "if not for BPD" things might be great.

Excerpt
I’d be finding my way through a relationship that was based on love and respect,

this relationship was never based on love and respect, RF. none of them were.

Excerpt
My happiness in a relationship isn’t just dependent on my behaviour it requires meeting a person of integrity and good character also.

attracting that type of a person and having the skills to maintain a relationship with them is 100% dependent on being one or not. love and healthy relationships are not about luck. they start with being a person that can give and receive love and respect. they start with the foundations of love and respect.

we talk a lot about "actions vs words" here. your words say "im not saying i dont have issues to look at, of course i do". your actions (and a lot of your words) deny it up and down.

pain is going to follow you for all of your days unless and until you ultimately see that. i dont know that there are words any of us say that can break through and really make that clear (though as your support group wed be remiss if we didnt hold you accountable). i get it; i continued to make foolish romantic choices after the relationship that brought me here even though i acknowledged i had baggage of my own. nothing changed until i stopped seeing other people in my life as the source of my pain, but rather my choices.

maybe thats your path too. it doesnt have to be. you have choices.
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« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2019, 08:05:28 AM »

I recognise that she was my choice, but I also recognise that she abused me in a way that I wasn’t expecting. Should I really take responsibility for her physically attacking me? Why? I didn’t physically attack her or do anything to deserve that. Should I take responsibility for her rage and devaluation of me? Sure I had a part to play in the chaos and drama of the r/s but if her love was real or she was capable of having a civil conversation without raging at me then we could’ve sorted things out. I have looked at myself in the r/s and will continue to do so but I am nobody’s punchbag. In the end it came down to her trying to control my emotions. That isn’t a person anybody can have a r/s with and I could be the healthiest person in the world and still meet somebody who behaves in this way. Perhaps if I was healthier myself I would have walked away. At the end of the day I am happy to learn new r/s skills if it means my future r/s could run smoother. But I do not give her a free pass at the way she treated me and I will always feel angry towards her and aggrieved that she was full of bs about her feelings towards me. I will never forgive her for constantly threatening me with other options. She was not reliable or loving. For that I will always feel hurt. I deserved better in that r/s. As for being a person of good character, I am not a man who is a stranger to integrity. I have not behaved well towards my wife as I said before, but we are finding a way through our break up with love and compassion for each other. She is not angry at me on a daily basis because she understands the issues and the situation. I have looked her in the eye and apologised for my transgressions and will continue to take responsibility for that. I have let her down badly but that does not mean that the ex therefore has the right to behave like a monster when I trusted her. Perhaps you think that my lack of integrity attracted a person of low integrity but I don’t think the ex lacks integrity per se,I just think she is damaged which causes dysfunctional behaviour..
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« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2019, 08:44:23 AM »

I think what others are trying to say is that a very healthy person wouldn't have been attracted to her because of her unhealthy behavior.  It would have been an immediate turn off.  Yet, despite the red flags, you continued to pursue her.  There is something about her personality that drew you in and you let that overshadow her bad behavior. 

In my last relationship, I was willing to tolerate some things in the beginning that should have been a big warning to me.  It definitely concerned me at the time, but I put those feelings aside and continued the relationship.  Over time, those things became bigger issues and I hung in longer than I should have because I really loved this person and wanted things to work.  Eventually the situation exploded and I had no choice but to leave.  I can see in hindsight where I should have heeded my gut feeling.
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« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2019, 09:36:37 AM »

I think what others are trying to say is that a very healthy person wouldn't have been attracted to her because of her unhealthy behavior.  It would have been an immediate turn off.  Yet, despite the red flags, you continued to pursue her.  There is something about her personality that drew you in and you let that overshadow her bad behavior. 

In my last relationship, I was willing to tolerate some things in the beginning that should have been a big warning to me.  It definitely concerned me at the time, but I put those feelings aside and continued the relationship.  Over time, those things became bigger issues and I hung in longer than I should have because I really loved this person and wanted things to work.  Eventually the situation exploded and I had no choice but to leave.  I can see in hindsight where I should have heeded my gut feeling.

My situation exactly. Except I got dumped and tried to recycle, but whereas every other time she'd dumped me before I'd tried again and again, the last time (January) I forced myself to stay away. But you are basically describing my own situation. I wish I'd stayed away the first time she broke up with me with no warning, after declaring how much she adored me. I've been paying for my mistakes for the last eight months, and I'm still not fully detached and completely over it.

I can only really echo the rest of the comments here. RF, take some time, and gain some perspective. I speak from experience (unfortunately) when I say how arduous it is, there are times when I've never felt lower. But it has to be done.
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« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2019, 09:36:44 AM »

Excerpt
I think what others are trying to say is that a very healthy person wouldn't have been attracted to her because of her unhealthy behavior.  It would have been an immediate turn off.  Yet, despite the red flags, you continued to pursue her.  There is something about her personality that drew you in and you let that overshadow her bad behavior.  

I think everybody on the planet has stayed in a r/s when they shouldn't have. It's part of life sometimes. At the very beginning my ex seemed quite healthy in the things she was saying. I guess the fact that her actions allowed her to have a r/s with me meant that she wasn't as healthy as her words and I wasn't as healthy for ignoring certain red flags. I fancied her so strongly that I probably would have ignored a few more too at the beginning. Her personality compelled and intrigued me. She was intelligent and fun to be around. I miss her very badly. I come on this site because it's dedicated to helping people stay in unhealthy r/s for longer. Ultimately all of these r/s fail. That's something that breaks my heart.

Excerpt
In my last relationship, I was willing to tolerate some things in the beginning that should have been a big warning to me.  It definitely concerned me at the time, but I put those feelings aside and continued the relationship.  Over time, those things became bigger issues and I hung in longer than I should have because I really loved this person and wanted things to work.  Eventually the situation exploded and I had no choice but to leave.  I can see in hindsight where I should have heeded my gut feeling.

I relate to this completely. But if you are able to walk away from somebody that you are heavily attracted to and you haven't had a decent r/s in over 10 years (in my case) then you're a better person than I.
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« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2019, 09:38:47 AM »

Excerpt
My situation exactly. Except I got dumped and tried to recycle, but whereas every other time she'd dumped me before I'd tried again and again, the last time (January) I forced myself to stay away. But you are basically describing my own situation. I wish I'd stayed away the first time she broke up with me with no warning, after declaring how much she adored me. I've been paying for my mistakes for the last eight months, and I'm still not fully detached and completely over it.

I can only really echo the rest of the comments here. RF, take some time, and gain some perspective. I speak from experience (unfortunately) when I say how arduous it is, there are times when I've never felt lower. But it has to be done.

Yes, plucky, that is precisely why I have stayed away this time, as painful as it is because I want to be free of this curse (that's what it feels like without her) sooner rather than later so that I can get a peaceful night's sleep and not wake up wanting to kill myself.
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« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2019, 09:41:47 AM »

Yes, plucky, that is precisely why I have stayed away this time, as painful as it is because I want to be free of this curse (that's what it feels like without her) sooner rather than later so that I can get a peaceful night's sleep and not wake up wanting to kill myself.

You will be better off mate. You will thank yourself one day.
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« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2019, 10:10:02 AM »

  It’s relative to one’s situation. To characterise me as a person of no or low integrity illustrates that you don’t really know me.


There seems to be a "shift" in society at large, or at least a push by some groups to shift to morality/integrity being more about "better or best"...vice "right and wrong".

Thinking that things are "relative" or "at least I'm doing better than..." would seem to shift the focus off your own choices and onto the choices of others.

I'm not aware of any people (on or off these boards) that have made substantial changes in their life by having a deeper understanding of the choices of others.  Change seems to come by understanding your own choices and how those choices impact your relationships.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2019, 10:21:23 AM »


we talk a lot about "actions vs words" here. your words say "im not saying i dont have issues to look at, of course i do". your actions (and a lot of your words) deny it up and down.

pain is going to follow you for all of your days unless and until you ultimately see that. 






you haven't had a decent r/s in over 10 years (in my case)  .

   

Help me understand your thinking when you reflect on your own words. 

What has been going on for the past 10 years is likely to continue.

Best,

FF
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« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2019, 10:25:56 AM »

RF, while I think you know change needs to happen, I don't sense a real commitment to it - now or in the past. Respectfully, a large part of your responses here are based in defensiveness and denial. I credit you for engaging, bu its still defensiveness and denial

Now to be fair, many (if not all) of us are more defensive and more likely to be in denial when we are hurting. And you are hurting. And we all get that.

I think a big part of the problems you struggle with is your "higher power" or if we keep it more secular, your role model, your code. I don't really see that you have one, other than yourself. You are your own role model and that role model is based more on how you feel at any given time, than any code for a purpose driven life.

Stay with me. I know this is a bit triggering.

Facing this reality will be painful. But it may be that your struggles are rooted in this lack of a code, lack a true mentor, lack a role model. Being your own source of truth in the universe is a slippery slope because we are inherently both good and evil beings and we often need a lighted path that helps us tell which is which.

You mention integrity, which is at the center of this, and you say you are a man of integrity - something we all desperately want to believe about ourselves. The problem is, that once we become the voice of truth, it is very easy to bend the definition of integrity to fit our feelings, both the good feeling and the very bad feelings.

Integrity could also have been not getting married. It could further have been leaving my marriage last year when I fell in love with someone else, or still further it could be what I did: making a self sacrifice to stay with my wife. It’s relative to one’s situation. To characterise me as a person of no or low integrity illustrates that you don’t really know me.

I think this statement perfectly exemplifies my point about "bending the definition of integrity to fit our behavior" vs "bending our behavior to fit the definition of integrity."

Please don't feel judged here. Every one of us in this thread is struggling to do better at  "bending our behavior to fit the definition of integrity". We are all somewhere in this walk to a life of greater integrity.

I mentioned to you, at the end of your last relationship, that you have been bending the definition for so long, you no longer know up from down.

Is this integrity: "making a self sacrifice to stay with my wife"?  Or is this a convolution?

You told the AA girl you were well on your way getting a divorce. You told your wife you had a crush.  But it wasn't until 9 months in did your wife realize that this was more than a fling. And at 12 months, with your wife living back in the house, you and the AA girl doesn't know - and as you say, if she doesn't know its not an issue.

The one thing that upsets you more than anything with the AA gf is the thought that she might cheat on you and this drove you insane with the last affair partner ... yet, you have not felt that it is so damaging to your wife. You even mentioned one time, when we said a six year affair would devastate your wife, that she would probably be OK with it.

That isn’t a person anybody can have a r/s with and I could be the healthiest person in the world and still meet somebody who behaves in this way. Perhaps if I was healthier myself I would have walked away. At the end of the day I am happy to learn new r/s skills if it means my future r/s could run smoother. But I do not give her a free pass...

Is this more convolution. The more she stays away, the more you impugn her character and justify your own. Yet, you know that if she makes a serious attempt at reconnecting, you will reverse all this and go back and her character won't be so flawed.

Do you see my point, there is no "higher power" or if we keep it more secular, role model, or code up on which you judge yourself or others. Every thing is situational and varies based on how you feel, who knows what, and what others do. In the end analysis, you did the best anyone could do given the situation.

Now let's talk about your free pas.
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ct21218
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« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2019, 11:07:23 AM »

Skip brings up a very important point.  What are your values.  Over time I have developed things that are straight up not acceptable for me or people I surround myself with. This includes romantic relationships and friends.  If I'm in a relationship, I don't talk to other men in a romantic way, I don't cheat, and don't confide intimate details to other men and I expect my partner to do the same.  I was in a sexless marriage for 2 years and I chose to get out and heal before I started something new.  That is carrying myself with integrity.   Also, I do stay away from men in AA with less than a year sober unless it's in a group setting.  There is no gray area for me and if I have acquaintances doing any of these things I choose to avoid being around them. 

Values are extremely important and I look for a partner with similar ones.  If I'm not respecting my own values, I can't expect my partner to.
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Harri
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« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2019, 12:26:26 AM »

Staff only

This thread reached it maximum length.  The conversation continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339369.msg13074950#msg13074950

Thank you.
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