In Limbo

[Our abuse recovery guide]

I have an undiagnosed mom with BPD (in extreme denial).  She seems to have gotten worse in recent years (since retirement).  I've been in therapy for years and recently have cut off contact .  After 3 months of not speaking, I sent an email laying out some boundaries if we were going to move forward (in the email I said I was not ready to talk on the phone bc I didn't feel like I could express myself adequately).  She refuses to email me back or even acknowledge the email and keeps leaving phone messages demanding I call her.   I've had to block her in my phone bc just seeing her name come up sends me into an anxiety ridden spiral. I struggle between putting myself first and finally saying I'm done with her drama and the intense guilt of being a bad daughter (I also have her only grandchildren).  I can't help but wonder where we go from here? 

[tryingforzen]

I have an undiagnosed mom with BPD (in extreme denial).  She seems to have gotten worse in recent years (since retirement).  I've been in therapy for years and recently have cut off contact .  After 3 months of not speaking, I sent an email laying out some boundaries if we were going to move forward (in the email I said I was not ready to talk on the phone bc I didn't feel like I could express myself adequately).  She refuses to email me back or even acknowledge the email and keeps leaving phone messages demanding I call her.   I've had to block her in my phone bc just seeing her name come up sends me into an anxiety ridden spiral. I struggle between putting myself first and finally saying I'm done with her drama and the intense guilt of being a bad daughter (I also have her only grandchildren).  I can't help but wonder where we go from here? 

[Harri]

Hi and welcome.  I am glad you found us.  You are in the right place for support, we get it here.  The good news is that things can get better for you.

recently have cut off contact .

What prompted this decision?  What do you find most challenging in dealing with your mother?

What did you say when setting boundaries with your mom re: how to communicate?  How do you feel about blocking her?

Sorry for all the questions.    I'm trying to get a good idea of your situation so we can support you better.

I hope to hear more from you soon.  In the meantime, settle in and read and feel free to jump into other threads.  We all help each other here.

[White Feather]

Hi There,
I just wanted to let you know that you are not alone it is so difficult having a parent with a personality disorder. My mother was diagnosed NPD  and my father is uBPD/NPD not sure which or a combination! I would say the boundary setting is extremely important and it is the norm when you try and set a boundary with a BPD for them to buck against it. Because they rely on your compliance, you have been specific with your request for no communication by phone and your mums response is to ignore your boundary setting attempt. It is hard to stick to and setting levels of contact that are comfortable mentally for you takes effort and persistance. Please do not be hard on yourself you have made the first step by reducing contact with your mum. I am sure you are a very good and kind daughter This site is a wonderful place to vent and research this disorder.  I expect you have read about the dynamic" Fear Obligation Guilt"if not it is worth looking into. It's a classic place that many of us with a personality disordered parent fall into, it's  almost a default setting. It is not our fault and we have to try to break that way of thinking. Wishing you the absolute best for the future.

[tryingforzen]

 What prompted this decision?  What do you find most challenging in dealing with your mother?

Where to begin?  Ha!  I am in my 40's.  And I have always been the peacekeeper- making sure I do what mom wants to not rock the boat too much.  For the past 12+ years we have done a family summer trip with my parents and sibling.  It's miserable EVERY SINGLE YEAR for at least 1/3 of the week due to my mother pouting, shutting herself in her room, fighting with one of us, etc.  And there is never a rhyme or reason that causes it.  We walk on eggshells all week letting her dictate everyone's mood.  So, this past year I decided we were done.  It hasn't been fair to my husband who takes a vacation week every summer for this drama.  I told her in May we would not be joining them on the trip this year and she hung up on me.  After 2 weeks of silent treatment I sent an email explaining that we have other places we want to go with our kids and other ways we want to spend limited vacation time.  I got a response that it's always all about me and that I can just forget about her from now on.  At that point I decided I am just done.  I can't keep riding this roller coaster.  For next few months I used time to work things out within myself (with help of therapist).   This is the first time I have ever just let the silent treatment go without trying to repair it.  She started with desperate pleading voicemails about how much she loves me and needs me in her life.  That's when I sent the email laying out boundaries if we were going to move forward.

What did you say when setting boundaries with your mom re: how to communicate?

Well after expressing my feelings that her love is conditional based on me saying and doing exactly what she wants, I told her that I was not going back to the way things have been.  I told her she needs to start treating me like an adult and treating my husband with respect and respecting us as parents without criticizing everything we do (in front of our children). And I told her I wanted her to get help.  Her Dr. has been telling her for years that she needs to be medicated for depression but she adamentaly refuses.  She blames me and the fact that I moved away (over 20 years ago) and she can't be the grandmother she envisioned.  She blames my dad for fact that she doesn't travel (hes never been interested in travel).   She has no friends, no hobbies, just sits around crying all the time.  I just can't keep dealing with her misery. 

 How do you feel about blocking her?

Initially relieved bc just seeing her name come up when she was calling would cause a pit in my stomach and bring up all the feelings-  fear, anxiety, guilt-  that would last for days.  But now that it's been awhile I still have the fear and guilt in the back of my mind. 

[TelHill]

Hello and welcome to the group...  

Sorry this is happening to you. I am in a similar situation. I wanted to help out my parents during medical crises and allowed myself sucked back into an untenable situation. I have a strong pull to have a loving mother and family. I keep wishing and hoping it will happen. I think this is natural for anyone. We all deserve loving and helpful parents.  

Just as a suggestion, look to what you want here with the misery a bpd mom causes. That never changes regardless of how much we give into their demands or be the perfect, loving child. They have a disorder which prevents them from acting like a normal, mature adult.

There are lots of great suggestions and tips on this site to deal with them. It is a shot to have relationship while keeping your sanity. In some cases, like mine, the abuse is simply too entrenched to deal with. I have to go no contact to save my own sanity.

Keep posting. I think this group is a great one. Take care!

[Harri]

Hi.   

Thanks for filling in with more details.  You certainly have been dealing with a lot.  Telling your mom you were not going on vacation must have been tough yet you did it and then followed up by telling her what your needs are.  That is good.

It is not uncommon to see an escalation like you did with texts and or calls and accusations of being selfish after doing that though.  There is something called an extinction burst where there is a temporary increase in the undesired behavior after setting limits and or boundaries.  You might be experiencing that here.  It is important that you stick to you boundaries though otherwise, if you lighten up on the boundaries, or are inconsistent in enforcing them, the undesired behavior can actually get stronger.  Consistency is important as is choosing your words when expressing boundaries.   Here is a link to a thread you may want to read:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0;all .  It discusses extinction bursts and intermittent reinforcement (2nd post).

When we start changing the way we interact with our family, it can be very distressing for everyone.  Think of the family as a system where everything operates in sync.  If one part starts doing something different, the whole system gets thrown off and every part will be driven to get the part that is now out of sync to fall in line.  So we see a lot with other family members intervening and pressuring us.  It is learned behavior for everyone, I don't think anyone really acts to purposely pull people back in, at least in most cases. 

Does any of that resonate?  I know for me, understanding what I am dealing with helps me manage my own emotions and reactions.  And not just manage them but even identifying what those emotions are.  It is tough to change our roles and the typical patterns we have had all of our lives.  managing our own distress is a big part of separating from these unhealthy dynamics.

How do you feel about blocking her?

Initially relieved bc just seeing her name come up when she was calling would cause a pit in my stomach and bring up all the feelings-  fear, anxiety, guilt-  that would last for days.  But now that it's been awhile I still have the fear and guilt in the back of my mind. 

  You are not alone in this.  The good news is that it does get better.  The best suggestion I have for you is to learn about the disorder so you can understand the behaviors which helps in depersonalizing them.   And also keep working on you with your Therapist (T) and here on the boards.  As you read you will find you are not alone and you will see how others are working through their own struggles.  We all help and support each other here so please feel free to jump into other threads too.  The collective wisdom here is quite powerful.

Thoughts?

[tryingforzen]

IIf one part starts doing something different, the whole system gets thrown off and every part will be driven to get the part that is now out of sync to fall in line.  So we see a lot with other family members intervening and pressuring us.
Does any of that resonate?

100% resonates.  My sister was furious with me this summer for "not just sucking it up for a week" and continuing tradition.  She lives close to my parents (I am in another state) so she is dealing with the aftermath of me holding my ground.  She thinks I am being completely ridiculous and says we "need to just accept that this is the way mom is."  We've dealt with her crazy our whole lives and she doesn't feel now is the time to change things.  My sister has never been to therapy and I have mentioned that mom fits the bill for BPD but she has no interest in learning more.   My sister also does not have kids and I am trying to think of how my mom's behavior affects them... or how seeing me respond to mom's behavior affects them. 


I read the thread you suggested on Extinction Burst and I totally get it.  I guess I am struggling a little bc what I am doing (standing my ground) is not what I'm used to doing so it is super uncomfortable for me right now to be in this position.  My instinct is to appease her- answer her calls, listen to her rants, etc.  It has been 4 months now- which sounds minimal in the scheme of things but feels like an eternity.  At what point do I wake up not feeling guilty?  I hate the fact that this consumes so much of my thoughts.  I go to therapy once a week talking about this-  I hate it. 

[Panda39]

My sister was furious with me this summer for "not just sucking it up for a week" and continuing tradition.  She lives close to my parents (I am in another state) so she is dealing with the aftermath of me holding my ground.  She thinks I am being completely ridiculous and says we "need to just accept that this is the way mom is." 

It's perfectly fine to accept your mom is the way she is, I think you have accepted that your mom is the way she is and because you have accepted that you are making healthier choices for yourself, your husband and your children.  Your family does not need to spend limited vacation time with someone that ruins one of the few times you can relax and spend time together.  You also don't need to do this vacation to make your sister more comfortable.  Your sister's choices are her own, if she chooses to have a miserable vacation with your mom because that is what she's always done, then that is her choice, you do not have to make the same choice. 

I read the thread you suggested on Extinction Burst and I totally get it.  I guess I am struggling a little bc what I am doing (standing my ground) is not what I'm used to doing so it is super uncomfortable for me right now to be in this position.  My instinct is to appease her- answer her calls, listen to her rants, etc...At what point do I wake up not feeling guilty?...

Setting boundaries with your mother is hard because you likely have been conditioned to appease her your whole life.  Setting boundaries with your mom is also a new skill, you are using a new muscle and just like learning anything new it takes time and practice to really get the hang of it.  Boundaries are not about hurting your mother, boundaries are about protecting you (and your kids & husband)

More on Boundaries...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

The guilt comes from what we call FOG (Fear Obligation and Guilt) or emotional blackmail. When there is pressure there is usually FOG.  More on FOG... https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0



tryingforzen I know these changes are hard but you are trailblazing for you and your family and I believe you are on the right track.

  Panda39

[Harri]

I can only second everything Panda said here.    

Changing habits of a lifetime is incredibly hard not just because of how it affects our pwBPD and other family members but our own urges and instincts.   Panda nailed that part too.

As for waking without feeling guilt?  I think we can all get to the point where the guilt does not consume us or is even a daily thing.  I know some people get to the point of no guilt.  I was not one of them and on my off days can still feel guilty and my parents have been dead for a while now.   

The best advise I received was to not act on my fear and anxiety.  To wait until I could think more clearly.  Come here and post, not just on the bad days or when you are struggling but also when things are clam.  That is when you can learn the most as your mind is clear and you can problem solve more easily.

 

[tryingforzen]

I got an email from my mom this morning.  It's progress bc after telling her I was only comfortable with email, for the time being, she took to only calling and leaving messages (which I ignored).  Today she finally emailed back-  but made a point to mention numerous times that she wants phone contact and can't believe she has to resort to email to talk to me. 

She still is showing no signs at all that she is capable of seeing any side other than her being the victim and me being responsible for where we are.  I got all the usual-  she cannot believe how I'm treating her after everything she has done for me, can't understand what she has ever done to cause me to shut her out, has no idea what I'm doing in therapy since both parties "need to be involved to solve a problem", can't believe how I have taken the opportunity for her to have a bond with her grandchildren away,  if I won't call and discuss anything with her how are we supposed to argue our differences and move past them... etc. etc.   It's the same story.

So, back to this limbo I am in...I guess my question is do you eventually just accept the fact that they are incapable of acting like "healthy" adults and just make peace with it and try to have a relationship with the person they are.  Or is it fair for me to say I can't keep doing what we've been doing and acting like it's okay?  If someone is mentally ill and refuses to acknowledge they have a problem, am I being unrealistic in thinking that I deserve more?  Does that make sense?  Am I just not there yet with acceptance? 

[Harri]

Hi.     Thanks for the update.  I've been wondering how things are going.

That she sent an email is good.  I would ignore everything else surrounding that and not respond to her comments about wanting phone contact.   

So, back to this limbo I am in...I guess my question is do you eventually just accept the fact that they are incapable of acting like "healthy" adults and just make peace with it and try to have a relationship with the person they are.

This is certainly one option and it is the one I decided to go with when my parents were alive.  It worked for me.  It took a firm commitment on my part to remind myself and work on accepting the fact that my parents were who they were.  Not who I wanted them to be or who my friends had, not what I deserved, just what I had to deal with.  Dealing with them the way I did and more importantly controlling my own thoughts was a choice I made.  As always there are consequences to every choice.

Or is it fair for me to say I can't keep doing what we've been doing and acting like it's okay?

This is also an option and again it is one that involves a choice and then accepting the consequences of the choices we make.

If someone is mentally ill and refuses to acknowledge they have a problem, am I being unrealistic in thinking that I deserve more?  Does that make sense?  Am I just not there yet with acceptance?

I do not think it is unrealistic to think or feel that you deserve more.  I am not sure it is productive to focus on that regardless of whether you choose NC, LC or full contact.  It is what it is---->  acceptance.   That is not to say accept abuse, be a doormat or anything like that though. Expecting people to be something they are not and to give us things they are incapable of giving us is a sure way to frustration, depression, anger, and staying in a state of upset.

[zachira]

Your mother may not like the idea of emailing you because what she says may make her look badly and it is written proof of how she behaves. My mother with BPD died this summer and I have some other family members with BPD. From my experience, it is important to only be around this type of mother when you can communicate in ways that you have some kind of witness and/or documentation. I tried as much as possible to invite outsiders mom wanted to impress to be around when we were together. My mom did not know how to do email. Now that your mother is emailing you, I would stick to that form of communication. You may not like what she says, yet you have written proof of what she is like, which in some ways may be a kind of validation of what you are feeling though it certainly is upsetting to be accused of what you know to be untrue. Telephone calls with my mother were heartbreaking and infuriating, as she seemed to think it was open hunting season, and could say whatever she wanted to with no regard for my feelings. Mom often sent me cards which seemed loving and never had anything offensive written, probably due to her concern about looking good and not wanting to damage her image by leaving a paper trail that made her look bad.
Clearly, it is an ongoing trial, as we just can't trust our mother, yet going LC and NC are both difficult and painful. Do keep us posted on how you are doing, as many of us on this site are dealing with/have dealt with a mother similar to yours.