Standing My Ground

[The Wind]

I had a really hard weekend. It began Saturday night and it lasted until we civilly spoke on Sunday night. The argument began over my wife snapping at me and our daughter on several occasions. Our daughter is 3.

Some background on the incident. M wife works at a hospital and last week had a 1-year old child come in due to choking on some food, and the child died because they could not free it’s airway in time. It was a very tragic incident, something I don’t even like thinking about. This was not something my wife experienced first-hand, she heard about it through conversation with others at the hospital. This has put my wife on high alert for choking in our daughter, and I understand that whole heartedly. We’ve both always been diligent about cutting her food up and it’s something we both agree should be done. My wife though takes everything a little or a lot higher up on the chain of worry at times. Something that we’ve both been working on with our daughter is sitting while eating, as opposed to walking around, and now not talking while eating, but focusing on chewing your food first, swallowing and then talking. All good stuff, that we both agree on. Our daughter and I were sitting at the table eating this weekend, and our daughter was talking while eating, which we both corrected her on, but then my wife became irrational and every time our daughter spoke at the table began correcting her and then me for simply talking with her. Even when there was no food in her mouth. I corrected my wife and said, "she didn’t have any food in her mouth when she was talking", because I want to reinforce with our daughter, that it’s okay to talk at the table, just not with a mouth full of food. Well, because I challenged her, that was it, she snapped back, “do you want me to pull up the report so you can read about that child that just died”. I really tried to deescalate. I acknowledged that it was important that our daughter not eat with food in her mouth, I pointed out that contrary to what my wife said I was doing (encouraging her to talk with food in her mouth) that I had been re-directing her when she attempted to talk with food in her mouth. I stated that I wanted her to know that it was okay for her to talk at the table when she didn’t have food in her mouth. I agreed with my wife that this was an important skill for our daughter to learn, and that it was a safety issue. My wife then accused me of not really paying attention, that I was simply wrong in my assessment of whether she had food in her mouth, then made the leap to begin attacking my two sister's character (which had no logical connection to this conversation), but it was just another "dig" at me personally or some of my family members, because that’s what she does when she gets mad at me. I told her that she didn’t need to escalate this conversation to that, and that I was going to take a walk because I was getting angry about the things she was saying about me and my family members. My wife just kept attacking, so I took our daughter for a walk because she wanted to go with me. Our daughter is talking more and more about her mom’s anger, or as she says “her talks loud to me” or “her’s mad again”. It is clear that our daughter already sees the anger problem in her mom. We came back home to more verbal attacks. It went through the night, with her throwing TV remotes at me, throwing my shoes out into the bushes in the front yard and saying some of the most hurtful personal things that she’s ever said to me. I didn’t say hurtful things back to her, but I did defend myself and pointed out her behavior to her. It’s really tough to take that kind of abuse and not say anything to defend yourself.

The conversation again when to threats of divorce from her, and how I make her life miserable, and I’m the reason she is so unhappy, that she regrets marrying me, disgusted by me, un-attracted to me and on and on and on with much more colorful, yet hurtful words.

Here’s the revelation that came to me during these conversations. So much of what was going on was really about control and manipulation from her, and the clash of two personalities that deal with conflict in a very different way. I could see the effort to control so clearly in her. She absolutely did not want to take responsibility for her inappropriate actions or truly acknowledge that she has an anger problem. She did not want to admit that in this instance she was wrong and acted inappropriately. She used “divorce” and “I want nothing to do with you” types of comments as a tool to make me want to cave to her, and admit that I was wrong in this situation, and in the bigger picture that I was the real reason our relationship struggles like it does. It was a means to not take responsibility herself and instead put it on me. It was also used as a means of trying to make me be the one who says “don’t leave me, stay!” so that she didn’t have to be the one who said that, because she didn’t want to have to say that again, due to her pride and anger in the moment. In reality she’s had to say that a lot, not because I threaten her with leaving all the time, but because she’s pushed me far enough away so often that it’s the next logical step. I held my ground with her, and essentially made my stance at, I can’t continue in this relationship if you’re going to continue being so angry, so hurtful and disrespectful to me. I didn’t come at her with “I want a divorce” that was her angle, I simply used the comments she made about me to show her that according to her I didn’t make her happy, couldn’t make her happy and that the eventual outcome of all that would lead to a separation and divorce. We explored what that looks like, what divorce really looks like for us and our family, which is something neither of us really want, but I was adamant that with the behavior exhibited this weekend, that has been consistent throughout our relationship, that’s where we are headed. Slowly the tide and tone changed. She finally admitted in a sincere way (I hope!) that she has a real serious anger problem, and as she put it “I just need to get my "shxx" together and fix this” in order to save our family. We then began exploring options on how she can work on her anger, and what are some options for her to research to get real help outside of just herself. Professional help so that she can learn skills to effectively and in a healthy way express and let out her anger and emotions. We looked at things that I can do to help with that as well, and things that I can do better in order to help our relationship. I kept the central focus on her anger issues being the catalyst or a stumbling block for us both, because I think she doesn’t fully understand or see the impact her anger has on the people around her, and certainly on our ability to love each other in healthy ways.

For me this is hard. I realize that I am someone who deals with conflict through avoidance. She deals with conflict through explosions. Neither are healthy or effective in the long term. I didn’t avoid this weekend, I stood my ground with her and called it like I see it, but in a respectful manor. I think for me that was a big step and something I must build on in order to make our relationship healthier. I hope that she continues taking the steps to work on her anger. I know that I have to be diligent with her, I’ll have to be the one that encourages her and keeps her accountable and on this path. She still has to put in the work, but I have to as well.

I just wanted to share that experience and I welcome any questions, added insight or advice from those who want to share or add something.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Tsunami Sailor]

Hi Wind,

I feel for you.  My uBPDw behaves similarly.  She lost her healthy child (previous marriage) right after birth due to a medical accident and has been permanently scarred as a result.  She's also a nurse.
 While I can be empathetic toward her reactions, my logic is ineffective and powerless when her sensitivities send her on a tear over a any slight medical concern with our children. These are the moments, or hours or days, when she becomes tormentor or rescuer on the drama triangle.  When I try to be objective, it's a threat.  When she brings up how she screwed up by marrying me, or how she's better off divorced, it starts as a tormentor, but quickly turns to her being the victim of me not being as warm, or kind, or fun a person as her.

I would do what you did, by standing ground.  It's also easy to understand relying on avoidance when one's partner is being verbally abusive.  Yelling always makes me internalize and step away from conflict, too.  It is very hard to be supportive, and a validator to someone who is making the argument that you are scum.  Walking away from that argument is not necessarily avoiding the conflict.  I think it's avoiding an unwinnable irrational argument.

[The Wind]

Tsunami,

I totally agree that when it's already heated, when the verbal abuse has started, it's reasonable and probably the best thing to do is to walk away and separate myself from that treatment. I don't see that as avoiding conflict, but escaping abuse.

What I see in myself is a willingness to let to many things "slide" in order to avoid the eventual conflict that I think challenging her will bring. That needs to change in me, and while it might bring more conflict for a time, I hope it will also be one of those growing pains for both of us that makes for a healthier relationship in time. I've lost contact and relationships with to many friends and family members because I let to many things slide. I can blame her for that, and she did play a role, but ultimately I made those choices not to stand when I should have and it cost me, and that's on me. I believe it's costing her too, because she isn't given the opportunity to grow or learn new coping skills when things aren't going her way.

We are traveling on the same emotional boat it sounds like. The triangle you described is spot on for what I often experience with her. I've never been so devalued and valued by the same person in the same day over the span of 14 years!

She often has a tendency to play the victim in an argument after an explosion, sometimes a victim of me and my treatment. During the high agitation phase it's all about how it's my fault and how I've treated her so poorly. As she begins to calm it translates into the "I'm a terrible, horrible person that only deserves death" and in doing that she is seeking sympathy and support from me, which in the end takes responsibility off of her in a sense and brings what she perceives as positive attention to her in the form of me saying "You're not a horrible person, you don't deserve to die" etc. and that leads to fishing questions of me like, "What do you like about me" "Why do you love me" "What are things that are good about me?" and suddenly we're focused on showering her with positive affirmations about who she is instead of dealing with the responsibility she should be dealing with because of her actions. Then for the next week I'll get statements like "I don't think you love me anymore" or "You don't feel the same way about me any more" and the conversation becomes about me making her feel like I love her and care about her, when she was the one who was just trashing my character, personal attributes and family! What a mind twist it is! She's gotten through these disputes with me like this for years now, and I've fallen for it over and over. The end result of that has been that we cycle, and never truly deal with the problem, because the responsibility for her actions is never placed on her in a way that really encourages her to deal with the consequences of her actions. After trashing and abusing me, we wind up with me trying to assure her that I do in fact love her even though she treated me so horribly. It makes me feel foolish when I analyze it and type it out, but that's how it's been, and that's not all her fault, it's mine too. It's like the Jedi mind trick has been played on me! I'm just glad that I finally recognize it and can stand my ground more effectively and consistently moving forward.

[once removed]

this strikes me as a conversation to have in times of calm.

youre both competing for control.

on one hand shes overcompensating/overreacting because shes freaked about what she saw in the hospital. and youre telling her to chill out at dinner; if you think about it, responding in that moment by walking out with your daughter might be seen as a little bit of a power play. at the very least, thats how your wife might see it. calling her bluff on her mention of divorce would reasonably be seen as an extension of that.

stay with me. i know where youre coming from, and i recognize she threw the first punch.

I totally agree that when it's already heated, when the verbal abuse has started, it's reasonable and probably the best thing to do is to walk away and separate myself from that treatment. I don't see that as avoiding conflict, but escaping abuse.

What I see in myself is a willingness to let to many things "slide" in order to avoid the eventual conflict that I think challenging her will bring.

sometimes we can overcompsenate for our passivity, or our aggressiveness in the relationship.

recognizing when things have broken down, and deesclating, winding down, rather than escalating is the height of emotional leadership in our relationships. its not sweeping things under the rug, or at least, it shouldnt be. its waiting for a more productive/constructive time.

fighting over dinner is a famous stereotype where couples go at each other until the point of no return. its a formal setting. appearances are at stake.

calling her out on that (challenging her) in the middle of dinner may not be the most constructive move.

I told her that she didn’t need to escalate this conversation to that, and that I was going to take a walk because I was getting angry about the things she was saying about me and my family members.

taking a healthy time out (or changing the subject) can be a healthy move when things have broken down. it works best when its not perceived as punishment or retaliation.

your wife is really struggling with the death of this child. she may be overreacting, but it frightens her, and our partners (overre)act on their fears.

what would have happened if the two of you hadnt spoken about the possibility of divorce, but youd listened (let her rant) about her fears over the child that died (perhaps more than once)? if the two of you, in a time of calm, walked through your observations of your daughter at dinner? if the two of you, in a time of calm, walked through how fighting at dinner was destructive, and how talking (in a time of calm), getting on the same page afterward was best for your relationship?

[The Wind]

what would have happened if the two of you hadnt spoken about the possibility of divorce, but youd listened (let her rant) about her fears over the child that died (perhaps more than once)? if the two of you, in a time of calm, walked through your observations of your daughter at dinner? if the two of you, in a time of calm, walked through how fighting at dinner was destructive, and how talking (in a time of calm), getting on the same page afterward was best for your relationship?

If we did those things, I’m sure the responses from us both would have been better, and somewhat more grounded and much less dramatic. It would be the proper thing to do for sure. I don’t like to argue with my wife, I don’t like to argue period, I would guess that most people don’t. My struggle here is that simply disagreeing with my wife can turn into a very dramatic situation immediately. When I said that I challenged her, that implies a stronger response from me, but it was simply me saying “hey, she didn’t have any food in her mouth while she was talking to me” our daughter was doing the proper thing, she was talking without any food in her mouth, that’s a behavior we should support and not make her feel like she’s doing something wrong, that’s just confusing for her.
We weren’t all sitting down for dinner either, just our daughter and I were sitting and eating while she was in the living room working on her computer, so while I agree with your assessment that the dinner table can be a place of “high stakes” and a formal kind of setting for conversations and appearances, that’s not was happening here.

The conversation with my wife can break down so fast, its hard to recover from and that’s the really hard part for me, and something that keeps me from challenging her when she’s wrong, or even sharing my true feelings about certain topics, simply because I don’t want to argue. That’s obviously something that has to change in both of us, and it’s something I’m working on in myself. I know that will spawn some arguments, but those are the growing pains that I’m hopeful will make us better, and our relationship better, so long as we can both be honest with each other and respectful of each other even when we disagree.

My wife may have seen me leaving for a walk as a power move (a walk where I said I’d be back so it wasn’t seen as some sort of abandonment) but what would the alternative be? To sit quietly and allow her to degrade me in personal ways, or my family members? All in front of our daughter? I’m genuinely asking, what would have been a better alternative to that? She had already gone from 0-100 because I disagreed with her.

This whole argument did turn into a power play, or could be seen that it was even initiated as a power play, but when the power is out of balance and the one being allowed to hold the power is the only one who dictates right from wrong (and in this case wrongfully so), where and when does a line get drawn? When does the power get balanced? While I don’t think it should be a consistent way, I felt like for me personally it was something that needed to happen, because in our relationship I believe that she’s been able control so much that she’s lost respect for me. I think she needed me to stand my ground with her on something in order to gain some respect for me. Does that make sense? It’s not that I don’t ever stand may ground, it’s that I don’t stand it enough, and I do believe there are instances where I don’t stand it when she knows that I should, and in not doing that it causes her to lose respect for me.

All that has to change, because I'm tired of being disrespected by her while also trying hard to save our family, to love and care for her and her family.

Thoughts?

[Teno]

This whole argument did turn into a power play, or could be seen that it was even initiated as a power play, but when the power is out of balance and the one being allowed to hold the power is the only one who dictates right from wrong (and in this case wrongfully so), where and when does a line get drawn? When does the power get balanced? While I don’t think it should be a consistent way, I felt like for me personally it was something that needed to happen, because in our relationship I believe that she’s been able control so much that she’s lost respect for me. I think she needed me to stand my ground with her on something in order to gain some respect for me. Does that make sense? It’s not that I don’t ever stand may ground, it’s that I don’t stand it enough, and I do believe there are instances where I don’t stand it when she knows that I should, and in not doing that it causes her to lose respect for me.

All that has to change, because I'm tired of being disrespected by her while also trying hard to save our family, to love and care for her and her family.

Thoughts?

Makes absolute sense. I'm running a very similar pattern. I think her loosing respect is actually asking for something. We stay quiet to avoid confrontations and I would think in a way that is asking: could you please stop abusing me. Maybe we have a fear of confrontation? She might think that as, you don't want to talk to me anymore, You make me responsible for all the decisions, you don't care about our child. Maybe we are not authentic enough by saying what we want, then we present a false self.

Maybe we both have unhealthy ways of asking for things and we think we can make someone treat us with respect by being nicer. I don't think we should change who we are for someone to respect us. That is not our part to tell/force someone to respect us.

Maybe the fear of loosing our families is what is holding us back being ourselves and not saying what we should?

Then saying that I've been at the knifes end of abuse and divorce threads for the last 4 months. It makes it hard what to say NO about. I started to self differentiate and set boundaries at the beginning of the year and all hell broke loose. The boundaries I've set is seen as stone walling. Who knows if I've done it correctly? Had to start somewhere. We've been in couples therapy for the last 4 months arranged by my wife.

I'm just reading/listening to a audio book: https://www.amazon.com/Not-Nice-Pleasing-Speaking-Unapologetically-ebook/dp/B076VVH14M

This book covers the: "It’s not that I don’t ever stand may ground, it’s that I don’t stand it enough, and I do believe there are instances where I don’t stand it when she knows that I should, and in not doing that it causes her to lose respect for me."

That is my thoughts!

[once removed]

and something that keeps me from challenging her when she’s wrong, or even sharing my true feelings about certain topics, simply because I don’t want to argue. That’s obviously something that has to change in both of us, and it’s something I’m working on in myself. I know that will spawn some arguments, but those are the growing pains that I’m hopeful will make us better, and our relationship better, so long as we can both be honest with each other and respectful of each other even when we disagree.

youre right. you dont want to walk on eggshells. but you do want to be pragmatic. its a difficult balance.

the smaller picture is finding ways that dont unnecessarily escalate things when they spiral. that will require some trial and error.

the bigger picture is what happens in the mean time. the conversations (ideally, rehabilitative ones) that occur in the aftermath, where you hear each other out, where you work together to get on the same page. in these moments, things can be more constructive, our partners less on guard, their emotions less heightened, and sometimes, they are more able to clearly communicate what they need, and listen to what we need.

what would the alternative be? To sit quietly and allow her to degrade me in personal ways, or my family members? All in front of our daughter? I’m genuinely asking, what would have been a better alternative to that? She had already gone from 0-100 because I disagreed with her.

its difficult to say, in a moment like that.

whats done is done. again, think bigger picture. this is the kind of thing you want to be on the same page about with your wife...what you can both do when things spiral. maybe you agree to go to separate rooms. some couples even have a safety word. maybe you talk about "no fighting with each other in front of our daughter" (and work, over time, to hold each other accountable, not everything sticks right away). maybe you talk about the message it might send for your daughter to hear her family disparaged and how it makes you feel.

just throwing things out there. think of it as a team thing. what you can do that works for both of you.

[The Wind]

I’ve been meaning to come back here and respond to these comments since they were written, but I've been super busy. I wanted to thank everyone for their comments so far, I’m genuinely learning from you all.

It’s been awhile, so I can report changes if any from the time I made my declaration earlier in this thread. Have things change? They have changed inside of me, my way of thinking and seeing our relationship and seeing her and seeing me, that has definitely changed. In our relationship’s interactions? Maybe not so much. There have been some periods of peace, but also some more explosions that have launched seemingly with little notice. I’m still learning so much about all of this that I’m still working on applying it practically. As I’m learning though, things are making allot more sense to me, which is very helpful. Coming to understand and learn about the drama triangle has been incredibly insightful for me.

We had an argument the other day, because she walked into the garage where I was working on my truck, and the fumes from a spray oil that I used were strong to her (she is more sensitive to that sort of thing than I am). She just stuck her head in there to say something to me, and then went back inside. When I came into the house, she was worried that her inhaling those fumes were dangerous. I tried to validate her concern, by saying that I understood her concern, that inhaling strong fumes aren’t a healthy thing to do. I acknowledged that she is sensitive to those kinds of things and that they do have a more pronounced effect on her (smells do). The issue irrupted when she asked me if I thought she’d be okay. I told her yes, that she’d only stuck her head in there, and that she’d been breathing clean air since that moment. I equated it with walking behind a car and smelling fumes from there, that to be constantly inhaling those fumes would be dangerous, but her little exposure probably meant that she was safe, but I made it clear that it was just my opinion and that if she wanted to call a doctor or someone that she should. She then irrupted with “How do you know? you’re not a doctor! You don’t care about me” etc. I tried to deescalate, I tried to take a break and go to another room in the house because she was so upset, but the verbal attacks just followed me and continued to blow up with her saying things like: I’m trash, my family is too, my family doesn’t love me, no one does, I should leave the house, I'm broken, something is wrong with me, I cause her so much pain and disgust, I’m disgusting, she wishes she'd never met me, she's not attracted to me in any way and on and on it went.

I look back and think maybe I could have been a little more genuine in my validation, my delivery. I need to work on validating when I don’t agree, validating the emotion that she feels, even when I think she’s overreacting to something. I also think there is an aspect of enmeshment going on here. The oneness on her part, because she needed me to not only validate her feeling, but to also share her opinion, I wasn’t allowed to have a different opinion from hers. I stayed pretty cool through the attacks, and continued to stand my ground, I didn’t attack back. I let her fizzle out, I waited until she apologized and then I tried to have a constructive conversation with her about her verbal abuse. I don’t think the conversation went great, she kept trying to blame me for her behavior, but it went okay, it was a bit more grounded.

The book you recommended Teno has been great for me. I’m about ½ way through it, and it’s clear that it was written for someone like myself. I hope to effect much change in myself by using the skills in that book.

I’ve also read “I Hear You” (https://www.amazon.com/Hear-You-Surprisingly-Extraordinary-Relationships/dp/0999104004). That has been a great book to help me with learning to validate, and while I’m still working through the everyday application, it’s been a valuable tool for me.

I’m also reading “Stop Taking Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist – How to End the Drama” (https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Caretaking-Borderline-Narcissist-Drama/dp/B01GUBLHYA/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Stop+Taking+Caretaking+the+Borderline+or+Narcissist+%E2%80%93+How+to+End+the+Drama&qid=1576253012&s=books&sr=1-1). This book has been incredible so far, I’m only about 1/3 of the way through it, but the description and understanding of the drama triangle, and the role of the caretaker and how that applies to me has been incredibly accurate and insightful for me.

I’ve come here and other places to learn about BPD and how to help my wife, how to effect some change in our relationship, but at this stage it’s become increasingly clear to me that my focus is on, and should be on learning how to help me. I’m learning more and more about the role that I play in all of this and while I want to see changes in my wife, there has to be changes in me too, not only in the interactions with my wife, but in how I see and value myself. That’s been revealing to me in a big way. The old adage that “you have to help yourself before you can help someone else” applies here to me. I’m humbled by what I’ve learned about myself so far, and I feel a bit foolish for not figuring these things out sooner. I’m also so much more aware now that making these changes in me does not necessitate that there will be changes in my wife and our relationship, but these changes will help me to function and feel better about myself. That in turn could impact our relationship for the better, and I hope that it does, but I’m not falling into the trap that I have to do better in order to make her or our relationship better. I just have to do my part, not overcompensate, and she has to do her part.

[once removed]

There have been some periods of peace, but also some more explosions that have launched seemingly with little notice.

i think the important thing to know is that in these relationships, episodes like these are going to happen. you live with and love an emotionally volatile person. things can get better; and it sounds like they are. the overall trajectory can be on the up. realistically though, these things are going to happen. ideally, we learn to navigate them when they do, and they also become fewer and further between.

I let her fizzle out, I waited until she apologized and then I tried to have a constructive conversation with her about her verbal abuse. I don’t think the conversation went great, she kept trying to blame me for her behavior, but it went okay, it was a bit more grounded.

and generally, this a good approach.

when our partners get on a roll, the tools are primarily about not making things worse; letting them fizzle out. often times, when we do, our partners are in a better, more constructive space afterward. the issue(s) becomes clearer. our piece is better received. solutions can be reached.

obviously, you dont want to be on the receiving end of hearing her attack you and your family.

give it a day or two, sometimes, and gauge it. maybe bring it up subtly once, then again a day or two later. it sounds like your partner calms down, but kind of rebounds, and that happened to me a lot. my ex would be full of deep apologies, but if i wanted to talk about it, it might rile her back up. heed it when that happens. come back to it. ask questions. try to get a feel for where shes coming from. ask if she really feels that way about your family and why. listen. come back to it later. that sort of thing.

[The Wind]

Thanks for the advice. She is the type that can get triggered again so quickly by bringing a sensitive subject up again, even in a time of calm. It's hard for me to initiate a talk that I know will probably go sideways as it goes against my nature which is to avoid conflicts, but I'm working on that part of myself now.

So often she'll get triggered in conversation, and upset, not to a rage point, but clearly upset, and when I try to explore with her how I upset her, it will often come back to "It's not what you said, but how you said it" and in my mind, even after looking back, it's a casual statement that I've made in a very casual way. More often than not, I think it's just a subject that she emotionally isn't ready for, so she lashes out to divert attention away from that subject. The hard part there, is that many times it's a subject that we should be able to discuss freely with each other, like our budget, or plans for next week, typical couple conversations.

As I'm learning it amazes me how much power I give up in these situations. I've also learned not to try and protect her feelings all the time, it's just not my responsibility, doing so has caused more harm than good, for us both.

 Lots to learn, but I'm learning!