Re: Part 3 Friends playing rescuer

[Enabler]

This is a continuation of a previous threadhttps://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339322.0
My kids are not in therapy ‘yet’ although I suspect there may well be a need for it in the future. At the moment 2 of 3 are pretty well rounded. The eldest is naturally sensitive, which is funny/not funny when she and W argue... it’s like watching myself argue with my W (at least it was until I sucked conflict out of the relationship). That said, I have spent a fair amount of time working on how to manage my eldest and I believe I am having influence there enabling her to develop into a much more typical young girl. She’s aware of her emotional sensitivity and we talk openly about it, deal with intense feelings and inappropriate outbursts. Those outbursts are much less now and less extreme. I have said foolishly to my W that I thought D11 showed BPD traits at the same time as telling my W I thought she showed similar... now I guess my W can’t see D11 as being BPDish without seeing herself as BPD as well. I inadvertently linked the 2. My W finds her behaviour intolerable but in the last 3 years has made absolutely no effort to alter how she deals with conflict with her.

I find it awe inspiring how someone can spend so much time and money on learning yet apparently know very very little about the one thing that’s influencing their personal direction.

Enabler

[ct21218]

While my own mother was not BPD, she had some weird traits, probably as a result of growing up in an alcoholic home.  My father was always the voice of reason, and while he probably should have stood up to her more, he would often pull me aside and say that my mother's behavior was wrong.  Just having confirmation of that helped a lot in my early teenage years.  When you're a child it's hard to really understand that your own parent is 'off', but the validation of my reality helped me see that I wasn't the problem child my mother made me out to be.

[Enabler]

Although I reserve that kind of damning statement for very extreme circumstances I do make myself available for times where we can openly discuss ‘odd’ behaviour and the kids know that they can freely air their observations without me telling them what they see is wrong. I make sure I avoid overt parental alienation since I don’t put ideas in their head I just don’t stop them expressing frustrations they already have. I don’t know whether I am incorrect in this approach, however I have seen results of calmer kids with more clarity of what’s going on at least as far as behaviours are concerned... similarly I have encouraged them to critique me and make myself accountable to them for any short temperedness or broken promises. That’s a huge key area I’ve focussed on... delivering what I say I’m going to deliver, even if that’s leaving a party when I say im going to.

[wendydarling]

Hiya Enabler

I don't want a divorce and I won't enable that divorce in a proactive way, however, I will do what is required.

You appear to want your wife to walk the hall of shame, and are holding her to that. Is that helpful for you and your girls, your healthy future, if you put on hold? I feel you are stuck, in a strangle hold. Are you emotionally ready to let your wife go, it's going to happen isn't it? Can you radically accept this?

Love and hugs to you E, walking with you.

WDx  

[Enabler]

Hey WendyDarling,

I think it's important to clarify that none of this is what I want. I don't want my wife to walk the hall of shame, I would like her to make many many many other more pro our-relationship choices, however, since she is choosing to take this route I will not be saving her from any of the natural consequences (and that could be a lot of shame) of those choices. I see no moral, ethical, religious or emotional reason why I should make this 'easy' for her. I myself am not 'making it difficult', IT IS DIFFICULT it just so happens that many people burden some of that difficulty on behalf of their partners. 

Sending me a simple email or whatsapp tell me she's doing xyz shouldn't be emotionally traumatic for her
Telling me she's sent off a Decree NISI application (2 months after she received my divorce petition response) shouldn't be so emotionally traumatic that she doesn't tell me leading me to find out over a month after she sent it (by calling the divorce office)... the list could go on and on and on.

In the context of BPD and core shame I can understand how these things are emotionally traumatic for her, but since she doesn't think she has core shame or BPD issues and feels her therapy came to a "natural conclusion" should I not treat her as the emotionally healthy individual she believes herself to be? That being expecting her to be able to communicate with me effectively and do the work necessary to get the conclusion she wants.

If I enable this divorce in any way I believe that in the future she will blame me for a divorce that she didn't want. She still claims to not be responsible for the divorce decision, she had no other choice.

I have accepted that divorce and single life is one of the range of potential outcomes. There's actually many reasons to be excited about single life, I'm totally self sufficient... heck I can even use a sewing machine! I have radically accepted a range of outcomes knowing that the outcomes I would like is not within my choice to attain.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

I'd be careful about calling a sensitive 11 year old's  behavior as BPD ish. I know you don't think she has BPD. Consider that pwBPD have emotional immaturity and so do 11 year olds. It's normal for an 11 year old to have mixed emotions and some mood swings- she's on the brink of adolescence.

Your daughter is likely a normal pre-teen. An adult with BPD can act like a pre-teen.

[Notwendy]

If I enable this divorce in any way I believe that in the future she will blame me for a divorce that she didn't want. She still claims to not be responsible for the divorce decision, she had no other choice.



I think this is inevitable. I think it's the nature of BPD - to take victim perspective and not assume responsibility or be accountable for issues in a relationship. I think she will blame you, no matter what, because this is a part of having BPD. This isn't license to be a cad, but you could be a saint and I don't think it can change how someone sees things.

You are the inevitable bad guy, the one keeping her from a divorce, the one who is standing in the way of her happy ever after ( in her mind) with OM. And if you agree to the divorce- she will blame you too. To me this is because a person with BPD can not handle their own emotional discomfort and projects it on to others- there needs to be a reason and that reason isn't them.

I agree with Wendydarling- it's not so much that you want your wife to feel shame as you want to be the good guy here- to be the one who hasn't "sinned" in the marriage( for lack of better term) while she's the adulteress here. But for you to be the good guy, she would need to be accountable for that, and she's not going to do that, no matter what you do.

I think divorce is a serious action and don't take it lightly. I agree that marriage is a sacred vow and that one should not divorce without careful consideration. However, if one person persistently wants out- over a long time, is in love with someone else, what is left besides the control and continued "games" between you?  You are the one who is willing to suffer for the sake of this vow, but your wife also seems miserable and wants out. Could it be kinder to her to let her go without a drawn out conflict?

[Enabler]

However, if one person persistently wants out- over a long time, is in love with someone else, what is left besides the control and continued "games" between you? 

3 kids who never asked for this, don't deserve it. Kids who don't deserve for their life chances to be significantly stunted by the lessened financial resources, inconvenience of splitting time between 2 homes, have their future life events tainted by the awkwardness of an odd family structure. Shattering the very security.
22 years of narrative, good memories, experiences (yes, there are many)
22 years of friendships we have made as a couple and as a family
Significant financial assets
A marriage isn't just about love an affection although I do agree it's the basis for a good relationship, lets be serious here, it's only recently society has deemed love as the only reason to get married or stay married. There are practical matters as well... as yes, in many practical matters I may well be better off out the marriage hence why I am pretty indifferent on that front. 

You are the one who is willing to suffer for the sake of this vow, but your wife also seems miserable and wants out. Could it be kinder to her to let her go without a drawn out conflict?

Kinder to her maybe, but I have spent many years attempting to be kind to her, attempting to make her happy and provide the things that she has wanted... and it didn't work. She has an insatiable appetite for circling back to unhappiness in her family or intimate life. What and who do I serve by enabling her next whim as to the answer to her deep seated unhappiness? I have told her many many times that I will not stand in her way, I will not obstruct, I just won't enable something I believe to be deeply wrong.

The cage door is open

Enabler

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Enabler-

In reading through these responses, I’m wondering...

I know you cannot have a conversation with your W, and I know this is very difficult for you.  But this whole situation is hurting you, whether you want to actually say that or not.  Knowing what you know, or suspect that your W is doing at “church” just wears on a person over time.

She has sent you that email, right?  What if you were to send her a brief email asking something like -

Dear EnablerW-

Have you thought this through?  Is divorce what you truly want at this time?  If so, I will complete the paperwork as requested.  What date will your paperwork be completed?

Sincerely,
Enabler

If you REALLY want to take her temperature, ask her when she intends to move out?

I would actually speak to someone about your plans for custody. 

My friend, I don’t think you deserve to live under this shadow anymore.  You DO deserve to move forward and grab some lightness and happiness in your life.  She’s become a cloud over your existence.  Sometimes we DON’T know when to say “enough”.  We need a little push. 

So maybe if you can get her to answer you in writing that yes, in fact this IS what she wants, you’ll have evidence to “show” whomever you’re afraid will judge you.  You have broken no vows.

I’m sorry, My friend.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes 

[Gemsforeyes]

Ooops!  I posted and didn’t see yours, E.

I’m sorry for the conflicting thoughts... completely unintended.

Gems

[Notwendy]

awkwardness of an odd family structure.

And having a Mum who is out all hours with a boyfriend while Daddy stays home isn't odd?

Even if her pursuits of happiness don't make her happy, she does have free will to pursue them.

I agree with gemsforeyes- perhaps she will tell you directly what she wants to do?

I recall my discussion with a social worker over some decisions my father was making when he was ill. Her reply: your father is legally competent to make his own bad decisions.

So is my BPD mother and any other adult. And there are consequences to decisions.

I agree it isn't your job to make your wife happy. Granting a divorce isn't about making her happy. I meant kindness in terms of accepting that she has free will to choose, even if those choices aren't wise because she's a legal adult.

I agree that divorce isn't good for children, but I think one could also argue that two people married and miserable isn't either. I don't think marriage is all about affection either. I actually think it is hard work- but both people need to be invested in it, maybe not evenly but still invested. Is you wife even remotely invested?

I'm not suggesting you stay or leave, or get divorced. Just questioning what to do if she wants out while you don't, and she's pretty openly romantically involved with someone else. I understand repairing a marriage after a short fling when both people want to, but this seems to be going on a long time and he's not living with his wife?

[Enabler]

No worries Gems, I hear what you're saying and can appreciate how you believe that I am being destroyed by this process, many people would be... however, owing to the depth of knowledge I have learnt here it strangely makes sense... and if I can make sense of something, it doesn't hurt quite so much. I've referred to it as my shield, helmet and sword in other posts. So, for now, I'm doing okay... not awesome but okay.

Re the questions to my W, I have asked these questions (ex the moving out) before and she is absolutely adamant. In fact, even when in the past we have had sensible conversations she follows it up the next day with "thanks for the chat, don't let yourself think that we're getting back together." She believes that she is carrying out God's plan for her by getting divorced. She is absolutely positive that this is God's purpose and plan for her life.

Enabler

[Enabler]

Notwendy,

She has zero desire to repair the marriage. We are part way through the divorce process but at her speed... a speed which I can't quite put my finger on the drivers.

She is pretty openly involved with another man yes, whom is still married but not living with his W.

I contacted his W the other day:
Me - Any chance your D process gained urgency or is it just my suspicious mind? Hope you are thriving x
OMw - I'm not going for divorce yet!
Me -  Lucky you. EnablerW does one bit then nothing for a year. Like hammer blows. Comforting to know that it's not directly related to you and OM.
OMw - I wouldn't call it lucky just can't be bothered! When you're not sharing a house it makes life so much more pleasant!

As I said, she's free to leave, no begging, no obstruction.

Enabler

[formflier]

When you boil all of this down I see a massive difference in "accepting" that something is inevitable versus actually doing something about it.  Especially doing something that will move the divorce process closer to being done.

Listen...work with me on this analogy.

Just because it seems obvious the political figure you support isn't going to win, should you go hand out flyers for the other person?  An argument could be made you would "feel better" because you were on the winning team.

I believe the better sports analogy is "It's how you play the game, not whether you win or lose".  To me Enabler is saying (and doing) a particular way of "playing the game" (sports analogy) even though it sadly appears the game will be lost.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

Wholeheartedly agree

It's also a matter of managing the ball down the hill. There are still outcomes that are very much still on the table that I wish to avoid, outcomes that I have sought to avoid accepting a divorce outcome several years ago.

[ct21218]

Here's another perspective.  Your kids see you hypervigilant and stressed out, barely communicating with your wife.  They think that this is normal and in the future, find themselves in similar dynamics in their own relationships.

Or, you move forward with the divorce, you are able to let go of your unhealthy relationship and the kids see their dad happy alone, less stressed, and see that they don't have to stay in a relationship at all costs.  Perhaps they even see you find someone new and they get to see a mutually healthy relationship, rather than what they have grown up in for years.

[formflier]

So..another point of view is that kids see that when relationship trouble shows up, you should get divorced.

Is that how we should train our kids?

I'm not saying that kids are not a consideration at all, but nowhere near the primary.

I would suggest that whatever choice an adult parent makes, it's important that they educate their kids on those choices.

Best,

FF

[ct21218]

If your spouse is cheating on you and has no intention or interest in changing, that is an adamant dealbreaker for most people.  I would absolutely tell my fictitious children that they should not stay in an unfaithful marriage.  Infidelity, abuse, and addiction without intent to change are absolute dealbreakers that should be taught to children.

[ct21218]

My parents taught me that I should not tolerate any form of abuse - physical, financial, and emotional.  When I did leave my marriage, they didn't tell me what to do they told me what they saw and asked me what I wanted to do.  I left and it was absolutely the right decision.  Marriage should not be sustained when a third party is involved.

[Enabler]

CT, although I appreciate your stance here and believe me it’s a common stance... but there’s a lot of definitives in your statement. I’m pretty sure I remember my marital vows were “for better for worse” not “until you f up really badly”. I have no idea how I we, if there even is a ‘we’ here recover from this, and as you point out, it requires her commitment to be accountable... but i took my marital vows seriously even if she’s chosen to deviate from them.

I have experienced a lot of peers stick rigidly to their principles regarding fidelity and misbehaviour, most made hasty decisions regarding leaving, kicking out, divorce and almost all of them have reaped serious negative consequences they didn’t anticipate eg high conflict divorces and parental alienation (some not seeing kids for multiple years).

In short I would commit to working through this with her, but that would come with conditions of accountability and others, but, as things stand now she doesn’t want to do that so she can get the divorce she wants.

Enabler

[empath]

Enabler, I get it...  When my h moved out and was going to start the divorce process, I figured that he would find out that attorneys are expensive and that he wouldn't be able to talk with me about the details of divorce (because he couldn't talk about other issues in our marriage and come to a mutually agreeable solution). My friends are a bit confused about the whole situation. We are still married, living apart and he hasn't filed anything. This gives me some advantages as far as my daughter's well being and mine.

How difficult is it to complete the financial statements yet again? I like how you gathered the information previously and didn't give Ew any indication that you had done so. As I understand it, you and Ew will need to have some kind of discussion about both the financial situation and the plan for the children. IF you get to that point, I think it would be very wise to make sure that there is documentation of those discussions.

Any idea of what spurred the latest progress?

[Enabler]

I have no idea what spurred this last imputus of need to complete the divorce process. I was looking back at my journal and the only time it's been mentioned was the 19th May which was 2 days after a particularly secular (put it this way, she wants to be a Playmate) friend came over for a weekend of drinking, the only thing I heard from a conversation in another room was "You just need to get out to preserve your sanity". Anyway, she made a big statement about getting financials together and sending them to the legal mediator to discuss with him, then she said, I'll just have to go through lawyers if you won't do this (I didn't actually say I wouldn't, I just pointed out that the last time we saw the mediator in Nov17 he said we needed to have a rough outline of financial decisions before we went to see him (which requires a discussion she can't have with me). I told her that would be her choice if she wanted to go through lawyers but don't threaten me (which it was intended to be since she knows I hate wasting money). She exclaimed "I can't do this for the next 15years...", I didn't even realised that was on the cards since she'd not verbalised that to me, last thing I knew we were getting a divorce and had a decree NISI (I didn't address this point).

So on a similar vein, she had drinks with friends on Friday evening, one of which is a woman who's going through a separation (incidentally I know her STBexH, and he described BPD perfectly when describing the relationship, she was abandoned by both parents when she was 7, H left a few years back, they tried to reconnect late last year but she's not changed and he'd got the taste of freedom and decided not to continue). She's no doubt feels pretty abandoned and maybe added some poison to the mix.

She is very subconsciously led by other peoples relationships. Mates separate and all of a sudden I find our relationship is being drilled into the ground, then suddenly when someone tries to reconcile their relationship she follows suit. I have mapped various close friends relationships and there's a lag, but a correlation. Weirdly, our bridesmaid (suffers anxiety, sexually abused by her father as a teenager) had an affair with a much older man after a still birth, claimed her H was abusive and controlling, moved in and got pregnant in short measure and now is the happiest person in the world ever with perfect man etc etc etc. Her previous relationship lasted about 4 years start to finish married in a year. Seems very much a case of trying on the hat that other people are wearing to see if it suits.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

So..another point of view is that kids see that when relationship trouble shows up, you should get divorced.

I think there are degrees of this. I don't think kids should learn that anytime issues arise a marriage needs to end. On the other hand, should they learn that one needs to stay married no matter what the other spouse does- even to the point of infidelity, treat the spouse with contempt over a long period of time.

It's not an absolute issue- with an absolute rule.

I have a friend whose marriage was repaired after infidelity. The husband cheated, but then got to a point where he regretted it and wanted to save his marriage. He admitted to it, owned it, apologized to his wife and his children   
 ( who were old enough and knew). It also involved cutting contact with the person he cheated with. Then there was couples counseling.

But would they still be married if he wasn't sorry, didn't want to stay married and continued to see someone else. Should the wife have stayed no matter what? What if she was unable to get over the transgression and knew she could not ever trust him?

Each situation is different. I'm not saying what E should do but making the point that what the kids learn from these situations is complex. Discarding a marriage for any problems that arise is one extreme, staying no matter what may be the other. Probably many situations are in the middle.

I know another couple who has separated recently. I've been friends with each of them. I don't know the reasons- and honestly, I don't think I want to know. They've been married a while. I can only imagine the heartache and sadness that preceded this decision and the sadness at making it. Discarding a marriage at the first sign of trouble seems more like Hollywood than the real people I know who have struggled with this tough decision. I think children see that people try before taking this step as a last resort- no matter what happens.

As to BPD that's a tough situation. But still, they have free will as adults to decide.

[Enabler]

One of the barriers to re-entering the zone where I think marriage can exist is accountability. In as much as I have to manage the boundaries of myself, I have to manage the boundaries of our marriage (emotional marriage not legal marriage).

At the moment my W is not considering staying in the marriage (and considers herself out of the marriage) so managing the boundaries there is not really in consideration. What is in consideration is whether or not I should help her dismantle the marriage (on false grounds), and be seen (by W, kids and others) to be helping. As FF noted above what lesson do I teach my kids if I am seen to be helping in this process. They know that I am committed to the marriage (and Mummy is less committed), because I still wear my wedding ring and she does not. When they have asked in the past if we'll ever move from the house, I have said "I will do everything i can to avoid that happening". They know, because I have said to them, that I love Mummy etc etc etc. They will inevitably ask me "why can't you stop this?", "why are you doing this?"... to answer their questions truthfully, is not the only answer to be given... "I can't stop this, it's not my choice".

My wife does find this decision tough... but in her decision making process I am almost certain she has been unable to self reflect enough to have any comprehension of her own contribution to the downfall of our marriage, even despite clear irrefutable direction by multiple different parties.

Enabler

[Notwendy]

I understand the lack of accountability.

My BPD mother does not self reflect- there's a "reason" or blame for whatever she does. I think this tendency is a part of having BPD.

What's holding her up? OM has moved out, she doesn't have her ring, she could move in with him tomorrow and be on her way.

[Enabler]

Guilt and shame and fear...

Here's another thing, so if I 'know' that she has BPD, and I know that with BPD she has an allergy to guilt and shame and therefore finds it difficult, bordering on impossible to make herself accountable... should I force her to make herself accountable, should I try and force the impossible? I'm aware that this is buying into disordered thinking, but think about it, is it my Christian duty to forgive her even if she hasn't asked for forgiveness? Even though it's her disordered thinking which I believe makes her think that I am abusive, do her religious beliefs mean that she should forgive and seek reconciliation with me? Trying to align divorce and Christianity into the same rational sentence just doesn't seem to work for me.

In the past I've thought of a situation where my W has Alzheimers... would it be okay to divorce her then? If she said during a period of forgetting who I was that she wanted a divorce, should I help her do that? I know this is different in many many ways, but it's not different in so many ways. There's elements of predictable behaviour similar to Alzheimers make many outcomes or paths to those outcomes more predictable, there's also some good rules to understanding a pwBPD thought pattern... knowing those rules, does that give me a responsibility to not expect or ask her to do things which I know she cannot do or should I expect the same things I would of a non?

Enabler

[Cat Familiar]

Here's another perspective on your situation, Enabler. Even if you and your wife are not fighting or arguing in front of your children, there's likely an undercurrent of discomfort between you two. And this is what you are modeling as a relationship for your kids.

My BPD mother asked who I'd choose to live with when she divorced my dad. I was about 5 or 6 at the time and I didn't want to make that choice. So I told her that I would run away.

Well, my parents never divorced and they never really reconciled either, although they lived together until my dad died at age 80. They managed some sort of a truce during that time.

I've often wondered what my childhood would have been like had my father found an emotionally healthy woman to re-marry. My BPD mother would have been pretty much the same regardless--in retrospect, I presume she attributed all her problems to my dad, who was a hard-working, kind, responsible guy--probably too boring for her.

[Enabler]

Hi Cat,

What do you think your experience would have been if your parents had divorced and you'd have stayed with your Mother?

Also, was you Dad happy? I do a pretty good job of being happy e.g. Monday after I'd received the email request for divorce progress etc etc, I had a wee shout in the car to myself and by the time I'd rocked up at home I was super happy and over it. I rocked in, said hi to everyone, asked my W how her day was and gave everyone a big old hug... bar W as she'd likely gouge my eyes out with a rusty soup spoon if I attempted anything like a hug. My W would call it fake... it's not fake though, it's not even a big fat F U, it's just living out the values with a smile.

Enabler

[formflier]

  I do a pretty good job of being happy 

This is the key.

What I say now is that I enjoy my marriage to the max, until it's not enjoyable.  Then I go do something else for a while.

Those things are actually "connected" because in both cases I'm taking responsibility for my "happiness".

Hey Enabler.  It's been a few days now.  You  know your wife better than us.  Does your gut tell you this is about divorce...or something else?

FF thinks it's something else.

Best,

FF

[Enabler]

TBH I can’t read her. She has been pleasant the last couple of days, responding to WhatsApp messages. This could be because she’s got this off her chest or it could be because she’s connecting more with OM or any number of factors. I haven’t raised the topic of conversation and don’t intend to. She hasn’t yet shown signs of frustration as to why I haven’t acknowledged or responded, however I’m not sure I responded last year so maybe I’m a couple of weeks she’ll chase me on it. There’s still a few hints that her fantasy doesn’t see anything changing. I did see a list on the side when I returned from holiday at the beginning of August which said “phone lawyer, phone mediator, ring bank and a bunch of other things”. A couple of things were ticked but not the phone lawyer and phone mediator, and she found other things to do. So I guess she has been building up to this for some time finding distractions and excuses to delay actioning things. Maybe she’s reached the end of her excuse list... for now.

I’ll do the work and stay chilled.

Enabler