Part 2: Will she ever realize the truth?

[Stillhopeful4]

Mod note:  part 1 of this thread is here    https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339646.0;all

If you would like a technical term for it, it's call 'Idealising'. When you met your wife, you too were likely idealised, it's pretty powerful... it's as though you were meant to be together, like soul mates. Since your W was likely mirroring everything you did it's common for people to think they were 'cut from the same cloth'. The Non often feels like they've met someone they instantly click with. Funnily, people who know the pwBPD think "hey, they're all of a sudden acting completely differently", however for the new person they have little in the way of reference points so just see this new person for who they are at the time... a mirror image of themselves.

For the pwBPD I believe they see the individual and the things that the individual represents as the elixir to their happiness. Everything about that person is so white and perfect and brilliant. They raise expectations of this person soo high their expectations soon exceed that persons (who's blissfully aware of the expectations the pwBPD has on them) ability... and crash. Often the crash and disappointment that the idealised person does not meet expectations, is met with devaluation, taking that person from the best, to the worse for no determinable reason.  

Enabler,

Wow...just WOW...this sums up the beginning of our relationship EXACTLY.

You now see that without significant reprogramming she is unlikely to change.  That said, you are also understanding that there are things you can do to change the dynamic... BUT... you're never going to have the relationship you thought you were going to have.

Yes, this is it.  Mourning what I was hoping we could have is very difficult and painful and frustrating that she won't realize it and get on the right path to do the work that's involved to help the situation.

I'm trying not to make any choices right now.  I'm trying to understand and give her space and let her process things.  But I have a questions for all of you in limbo, all of you who have had them leave before and taken them back (I've done this MULTIPLE times).  If they come back...how do you go all in and trust they will be there for you in a time of need and not up and leave again?  (My W tends to leave at low points in my life where I have to shift my focus from her to the kids or a parent or a cancer diagnosis).

Thanks,
SH4

[Enabler]

I can't answer that question. I have never known about BPD when I took her back... actually, even using the term "take her back" is a bit of a misnomer as it was more of a case of her coming back and I felt fortunate that she had. She came back under the pretence of 'forgiving me' rather than acknowledging anything she had done to cause the breakdown in the first place. I think if there was ever any hint of guilt and shame being addressed she'd have stayed away.

Maybe this is why things haven't gone the way of the past this time, maybe I knew too much, maybe she feels that I can now see straight through her. I've found and read emails I shouldn't have and I've opened Pandora's box on her dark dark world... neither of us can go back to believing our fictitious fantasies of the other, her's where she thought I didn't know what she'd been up to, and mine where I didn't know nor believed evidence I had seen. Neither of us can live in blissful ignorance/denial.

If you were to reconcile, you have a couple of choices, you either let her back in and do whatever it takes likely accepting all guilt and shame for the issues... which will inevitably result in the same thing happening again and again. Or, you create boundaries around you, and around your marriage which doesn't allow certain behaviours back into the relationship. In essence you have to say "No, you are not welcome to come back into this relationship until you have shown you can do XYZ"

Enabler 

[Stillhopeful4]

If you were to reconcile, you have a couple of choices, you either let her back in and do whatever it takes likely accepting all guilt and shame for the issues... which will inevitably result in the same thing happening again and again. Or, you create boundaries around you, and around your marriage which doesn't allow certain behaviours back into the relationship. In essence you have to say "No, you are not welcome to come back into this relationship until you have shown you can do XYZ"

I know I say this a lot... THIS IS SO HARD.  If I create the boundaries, she won't come back.  I'm starting to spiral, so glad I'm seeing T today.

[Stillhopeful4]

But I still love her so much, and I'm grateful she is still willingly going to therapy.

I know how you feel about this, I just keep asking myself why...why...why...why.  I've done so much for this girl, sacrificed so much, given her so much and she doesn't want to be with me.  At what point do I sit back and say F this, I am worth so much more than this?  It's coming...

SH4

[Stillhopeful4]

Ok so something that's been bothering me.  When I mentioned BPD to our T he said he can't issue a diagnosis, but she doesn't scream it.  He's known us for about 4 years.  The other thing she told me was the T told her she has PTSD from the relationship.  This really bothers me, it's like she's blaming our relationship for all of her problems.

Thoughts?

[once removed]

Like how can they say they feel smothered if we aren't smothering them.

this may be a black and white way of looking at it.

she may easily feel smothered. you may also be doing things that make her feel smothered, even if you dont think those things are smothering. its really important to get a grasp on this, to listen. has she ever given you an example (have you asked), or told you why she feels smothered?

If they come back...how do you go all in and trust they will be there for you in a time of need and not up and leave again?

the short version is that its really about understanding the conflict in the relationship (our role in it, and theirs), understanding what broke the relationship down, whether it can be resolved, and going back in with a very different game plan.

i dont sense that youre at that place. you arent really in problem solving mode. if she came back tomorrow, it would probably be a disaster.

If I create the boundaries, she won't come back

this may be a misunderstanding when it comes to boundaries. youre talking more about ultimatums ie "you cant come back unless x y or z". boundaries work best as a lifestyle that corresponds with our values rather than rules imposed on others.

The need for better “boundaries” is advice often given when someone complains about how another person has been treating them.

“Help, my girlfriend isn’t treating me well. Now she is giving me the silent treatment.”

“Well, friend, you need to set some boundaries”.

“You’re right, I have bad boundaries.”

From this discussion one might believe that if we are angry and say "no more" or even walk out that our girlfriend (or other loved one) will change their ways and all will be well. That's not what this is about.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries

[Stillhopeful4]

she may easily feel smothered. you may also be doing things that make her feel smothered, even if you dont think those things are smothering. its really important to get a grasp on this, to listen. has she ever given you an example (have you asked), or told you why she feels smothered?

Yes,  here is an example.  She said she gets anxious going out with her friends because at the beginning of our relationship, 10 years ago, I would get mad at her for going out with her friends and blow her phone up with "where are you's" etc.  That's her version.  The fact is, she would just not come home and not tell me she was going out with her friends, so on a friday night when I was expecting her home around 5 and it's 7...I sent her texts with the where are you's etc.  She felt like she shouldn't have to tell me she's going out and who with and that I was smothering her by asking.  I would try to explain that I didn't mind her going out with her friends, but it would be nice if she communicated that to me.  She has recently told me that based on her childhood and no one caring about her that she became very independent and she realizes that maybe had she communicated better, some of these problems would not exist.  I thought that was progress. However, those things happened at the beginning.  She still says she has major anxiety going out with her friends that I'm going to get mad or blow up her phone, mind you this is now 10 years later and we are separated...I haven't done that in like 8 years.  I don't understand.  She can't forgive me for that and move on, but yet I have moved on from her having several affairs.

SH4

[Enabler]

I wonder if the best response to that is:

Can you help me understand what that looks like?
Can you show me any evidence of that behaviour?

I have downloaded my entire whatsapp history with my W from 2013... interesting read.

Also, is there anything to forgive? What part of your behaviour was anything other than reasonable? She is defining what 'unreasonable' looks like.

[Stillhopeful4]

Also, is there anything to forgive? What part of your behavior was anything other than reasonable? She is defining what 'unreasonable' looks like.

Yes she is defining it.  And it's also her "truth".  So if she wants to live a life where she can come and go as she pleases and not have to "report" to anyone ever, then she is probably better off single.  She admits she has problems in all of her relationships because there are too many expectations.  And yes, if you are the type of person that needs to just go out with your friends and not have the courtesy to let your spouse know that you are doing that, I would think you are going to have problems in any marital relationship.

SH4

[Enabler]

I would think you are going to have problems in any marital relationship.

There's a legal principal my friend (lawyer) always tells me which is "What would the man on the Clapham Omnibus think?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_man_on_the_Clapham_omnibus

The man on the Clapham omnibus is a hypothetical ordinary and reasonable person, used by the courts in English law where it is necessary to decide whether a party has acted as a reasonable person would – for example, in a civil action for negligence. The man on the Clapham omnibus is a reasonably educated, intelligent but nondescript person, against whom the defendant's conduct can be measured.

The man on the Clapham omnibus would think it totally reasonable that if his wife said that she would be back at 5pm and wasn't back at 7pm and she hadn't contacted him, he might have cause for concern.

The man on the Clapham omnibus who was concerned about his wife's safety, or even unsure what time he should cook their dinner, would be inclined to call or message his wife to establish her whereabouts.

That would be reasonable in The man on the Clapham omnibus world.

One thing to note which is highlighted well in a book called 'When Hope is not Enough" - Bon Dobbs, is how WE express correctly the emotions we are feeling...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/When-Hope-Not-Enough-Second/dp/1329444094/ref=asc_df_1329444094/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=241181689605&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8676845822897293027&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006753&hvtargid=pla-527480834052&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

... so in his example his daughter goes out for the evening, she has a curfew of midnight on the weekends. It's 3am when she finally comes in and he's waiting up for her worried out of his mind. Typically you might expect the reaction of a parent to be something akin to "You're grounded for a month young lady, how dare you disobey the curfew!". However, when he dissected his actual emotion, it was one of worry and concern, and when she came through the door his emotion should have been one of relief... and it was, but he'd shouted at her. Why? He'd allowed his own anxiety to smother his primary emotion, that of relief of his daughters safety. His reaction should have been "Ohhh Jenny, I'm so glad you're back, I was soo so worried when you weren't back before midnight. Is everything okay? It's late, you best get to bed. Lets talk about this tomorrow after a good nights sleep."

Enabler 

[Stillhopeful4]

Thanks Enabler,

Or should I call you my personal man on the Clapham Omnibus?   

And yes, I get the thing about the reaction because we both contributed to that...her by not calling/texting... me texting asking where she was...her snapping at me I don't answer to you... me then snapping at her accusing her of keeping secrets (and of course my mind goes to the affairs).  Her saying I'm not going to live like this being accused of things I'm not doing...and on and on and on.

Anyway, it's the weekend, I've started to hate weekends, but this weekend I'm going to try and do something nice/fun for myself.   

SH4

[Enabler]

Good for you... hope you have an awesome one.

Think how those arguments would have gone had your initial text said "Hey babes, I'm worried, can you let me know you're safe". I doubt very much it would have changed the fact that she came back late, only boundaries would do that, but when you start with something that can even slightly be seen as accusatory, she will jump on it and attack (or defend as she might see it).

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

Enabler,

Can I get you one of those Mission Impossible ear pieces so you can be there and dictate what I should the next time we have one of our long talks?  You do have a way with words!

Thank you!

SH4

[Enabler]

It’s all well and good me being able to spend 5-10mins thinking of the right thing to say whilst sitting at my desk at work pretending to work, and it’s another being filled with anxiety trying to keep my sheeeeeeet together with my W... trust me, this doesn’t come easy and I don’t get it right... believe me when I say that. This doesn’t happen overnight.

Buy time, slow things down and keep observing your emotions to keep chilled. You’re doing excellently, better than me. Don’t underestimate yourself. We’re all working together on this to think of better approaches.

Xxx

[Stillhopeful4]

Weekend update:

So I saw her this weekend for a visit to my very sick dog, the poor thing.  I was there for over an hour and we started talking towards the end of that time about both of our T sessions this week.  She seemed very angry that I had a good session, (I didn't tell her this, he must have, because I was there right before her).  She's like look at you ..you've lost weight, your getting healthy, you are taking care of yourself, you are relaxed and calm and he recommenced she see a psychiatrist and maybe get on meds.  She was very angry at that and said she's probably not going back to him, or anyone because apparently she "knows what her problem is" and she doesn't need to talk to anyone.  He has a 4 year history with us.  She has been through 5 T's since I have known her in 10 years.  As soon as they tell her something she doesn't want to hear she leaves and never goes back.

She needs him more than I do, should I step away?

Thanks,

SH4

PS I did something really nice for myself this weekend like I said I would.  I went for a hike at a local island.  It was a beautiful day, I really enjoyed it and took the time to stop and enjoy the beautiful nature that was surrounding me and just breath and take it all in.  It was so peaceful.

[Enabler]

SH4, that's wonderful news. You sound really positive about your weekend... I told you it would get better

You W will likely take note of your good appearance and I'd imagine she want you to be in the same hole that she is. It's a fine balance between doing well and wearing thus making her feel like you don't care... but then sometimes you just can't help that.

Regarding your T, I love seeing my T and still see him every month as a bit of a maintenance therapy session. He knows the story and keeps an eye on me, once a month is just long enough that he doesn't see me too often. I do think there is a conflict of interest dealing with the same T. I know that my W would not have been impressed if me and her were seeing the same person as she wouldn't have been able to deceive them... or would have had to fight through my narrative to do so. Although a T should be neutral, it's inevitable that one persons fantasy is far more likely to be reality than anothers. He's likely to see this and likely to be having an ahhhhh moment, especially since you're able to speak freely in the individual session rather than the couples session where you might be more reserved. If you feel comfortable with changing T's (although that takes you back to ground zero) and you're confident to leave her to your current T that could be a potential... HOWEVER... likely scenario is that if he asks her questions she doesn't like she will ditch him and say that you've poisoned him against her and have zero faith in his professionalism.

FWIW I had a terrible weekend. I had everything from blame shifting, parental alienation, rage, silent treatment (I know... if it's not one it's the other), tons of passive aggressive behaviour and this morning I got a divorce email asking for a response to an email I ignored last week requesting we do financials. Yay 

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

SH4, that's wonderful news. You sound really positive about your weekend... I told you it would get better

Yes, it was positive for the most part and I also got a lot of stuff done around the house and was able to spend some great time with the grandbabies on Saturday.

...likely scenario is that if he asks her questions she doesn't like she will ditch him and say that you've poisoned him against her and have zero faith in his professionalism.

I'm thinking that too.  I'll talk to him next week when I go and see what he thinks.  But next week her appointment is before mine so I won't have time to give him a heads up.  I'm just concerned because she really really needs him and she THINKS she knows what her problem is but she really doesn't because she would never accept having BPD and all of her friends told her that T was out of line to recommend a psychiatrist and meds but they don't see the whole picture, they just hear her version that I AM the issue and that I have abused her with my harsh words for 10 years.

FWIW I had a terrible weekend. I had everything from blame shifting, parental alienation, rage, silent treatment (I know... if it's not one it's the other), tons of passive aggressive behaviour and this morning I got a divorce email asking for a response to an email I ignored last week requesting we do financials. Yay 

((Hugs) that stinks.  Did something trigger this for her?  You are great at pin pointing things.  The Divorce email was probably just her trying to create more chaos and you are well aware of how to shut that down.  I hope things get better for you soon.

SH4

[Enabler]

Long story... but to summarise, the nail in the coffin was her saying that she was going to cook roast beef and Yorkshire puddings (which she didn't have). I tried to back up as much as possible but there were certain things that she was going to do which would have created shame and stress anyway... so I interjected with some helpful well phrased comments. She didn't allocate the time necessary to complete the task, things went wrong (one of which was wholly my fault through interfering) and as far as she was concerned I ruined it for her. I tried to rescue and I was slammed into perpetrator. At points she was under her duvet in her bedroom.

The kids didn't help with some comments regarding her cooking vs mine.

Your W is going to do what she's going to do re the T, I'm sure 1 session isn't going to be a deal breaker for her. If the T doesn't agree with you, which is okay and maybe the T is right, lets keep an open mind about that, what did you enjoy about your last session and how did the T benefit you (given she disagrees with what you feel about your marital situation)?

[Stillhopeful4]

She didn't allocate the time necessary to complete the task,

So it was like it was her fault but she didn't want to own it?  Do you notice this happens a lot with not allowing enough time and then they blame you for it?  My W does this often.  That must have been a horrible situation with her under the blanket etc.

The kids didn't help with some comments regarding her cooking vs mine.

Ouch, that's hard.  I know when my kids say stuff that gets her more mad.  I think well that might be true, but it's not helping the situation.  Kids are like old people, no filter.

what did you enjoy about your last session and how did the T benefit you (given she disagrees with what you feel about your marital situation)?

I enjoyed hearing that he thinks I'm processing things well and really trying to work on myself and my attitude and listening.  He said he's impressed with my progress and that I'm moving quickly to get to a healthy place.  It was good to have someone acknowledge the work I've been putting in!  How did it benefit me?  I guess just being validated that the work I'm putting in is paying off.  But then again, I see that in my relationships with my kids and co-workers and friends and even how the dynamics are changing with me and my wife.  Things like if she texts me something snotty to start a fight, I just don't reply.  He said that's huge!

SH4

[Enabler]

Is your T the one who is helping, are you the one that's helping or are we the ones that are helping you help yourself? It can be all of the above. My point is, if you lost his source of validation, could you repalce it with someone that challenges you more. Are you paying him to flatter your ego or is he/she 'helping' by directing change in you? If your T does not agree with your starting thoughts about BPD, are they challenging you to re-asses that idea such that you adopt their professional opinion?

My W constantly flitters her time away on FB, Whatsapp, exercise, other stuff only to find she has not left ample time for things I would deem as her responsibilities... and not in a draconian way, in a sense of "I'm going to cook roast beef and Yorkshire puddings today". "I'm going to do the gardening today". "I'm going to do something with the kids today". This is where many many many of the arguments we had stemmed from certainly from 2014-2016... "you said you would do XYZ, you haven't... why?" I feel deceived by constant false promises, I feel constrained and almost controlled as I wait to pick up the things that she picked up and dumped on the floor because it no longer suited. Our kids are constantly disappointed because fun things get tainted not only by disappointment but also because rather than being fun things just for them, they become her social events that the kids are invited to (but sold as if it was for them).

I guess we all just want her to take her responsibilities to her family seriously... but she can't as family = pain and she seeks constant emotional gratification.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

Is your T the one who is helping, are you the one that's helping or are we the ones that are helping you help yourself? It can be all of the above. My point is, if you lost his source of validation, could you repalce it with someone that challenges you more. Are you paying him to flatter your ego or is he/she 'helping' by directing change in you? If your T does not agree with your starting thoughts about BPD, are they challenging you to re-asses that idea such that you adopt their professional opinion?

All of the above.  He helps a lot, but you guys are always here and I've learned so much here in the past few months it's helped me process and understand things so much better.  I don't think he agreed out loud to me about the BPD, however the fact that he suggested seeing a psychiatrist to her, has me think differently.

I feel deceived by constant false promises, I feel constrained and almost controlled as I wait to pick up the things that she picked up and dumped on the floor because it no longer suited. Our kids are constantly disappointed because fun things get tainted not only by disappointment but also because rather than being fun things just for them, they become her social events that the kids are invited to (but sold as if it was for them).

I can relate to this so much.  Do you find that  you guys only do the things she WANTS to do as well?  I find that unless something is her idea, we don't do it.  And I so get what you mean about the kids being disappointed.  It's been like that for years with my kids.  My son came out of his room for the first time in months last night and said hey mom can I watch this movie with you...I was so excited!

I guess we all just want her to take her responsibilities to her family seriously... but she can't as family = pain and she seeks constant emotional gratification.

How old are your kids?  Do they understand most of the issue lies with her?  It's so hard on the kids ((Hugs) to you for standing by her through this, IT'S NOT EASY, and taking care of your kids in her absence.  Hopefully she will come around.

SH4

[Enabler]

Well to an extent you were...

The moment we start to question the very senses that keep our reality and delusion cemented together is the moment the two start to distance.

I did a fair amount of reading on childhood trauma as part of my mission to find out as much about BPD as possible (the two aren’t exclusively linked but it can be contributory). So one example of childhood trauma would be having a parent who’s an alcoholic. Examples cited was one of one parent being an alcoholic, the kids were trained to not talk about the fact that dad was unconscious in his chair every night, they didn’t speak about how they would take him upstairs to bed... it was a family secret. The children were encouraged to have a fantasy where this wasn’t happening whilst their reality was markedly different. The void between fantasy and reality grows and the glue that holds the two together disintegrated.

You, and I for that matter were told that our perception of reality was incorrect. We then sought to believe an alternative (fantasy), that we were somehow at fault for our partners odd behaviour. Many many many members come to the board with a sense that they have completely failed their partners in the relationship. In some cases this is true, in most cases they have certainly contributed and in some cases this delusion is as baseless as our pwBPDs accusations. This is not an excuse to sit back and say “hey, it’s all about them”, but certainly goes some way to understand how our sense the ground is moving beneath our feet originates.

I’m glad you appreciate my analogies... although you might want to skip the romp visualisation!

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

So one example of childhood trauma would be having a parent who’s an alcoholic.

My wife had a lot of childhood trauma, including alcoholism.  So this could have something to do with her BPD?

I’m glad you appreciate my analogies... although you might want to skip the romp visualisation!

I love them, they really help me to visualize things which helps me understand better!  Thank you so much~

[Enabler]

I can't say for sure and the picture isn't clear how all the pieces of the puzzle fit together with BPD, it's generally accepted that it's a nature and nurture thing. Any childhood is generally accepted as contributory... I'm intentionally vague there. The point was more how reality and fantasy can become unglued and that starts to spell trouble... for all of us. I spend a lot of time and effort making sure my fantasy and reality are glued together... and it does involve a lot of effort sometimes.

I am glad I can help you on your journey to flourishing... and you will flourish irrespective of what happens in your relationship. It's amazing to have watched you from your darkest moments (sorry to tell you I'm sure there will be more) to a better state over the last 3 weeks. I'm so glad I could be there for you as others were there for me when i needed them.

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

The point was more how reality and fantasy can become unglued and that starts to spell trouble... for all of us. I spend a lot of time and effort making sure my fantasy and reality are glued together... and it does involve a lot of effort sometimes.

I'm not sure I understand this...what do you mean reality & fantasy can become unglued?

I am glad I can help you on your journey to flourishing... and you will flourish irrespective of what happens in your relationship. It's amazing to have watched you from your darkest moments (sorry to tell you I'm sure there will be more) to a better state over the last 3 weeks. I'm so glad I could be there for you as others were there for me when i needed them.

Yes there will be more, I am trying to prepare for them so I can react differently than I have in the past to them.  Thank you so much for all of your help and support on this journey!   

I took a yoga class at lunch...it was good for my soul...I am determined to get there!

SH4

[Enabler]

I'm not sure I understand this...what do you mean reality & fantasy can become unglued?

For the majority of us, how we think we are  (fantasy) is how we are (reality)... the two should be pretty ‘stuck’ together. If I think that I am a kind person and act like a kind person then all is good. If I think that I’m a kind person but rob old ladies but deny to myself that I rob old ladies then my fantasy and reality have utterly separated. See what I mean?

Enabler

[Stillhopeful4]

For the majority of us, how we think we are  (fantasy) is how we are (reality)... the two should be pretty ‘stuck’ together. If I think that I am a kind person and act like a kind person then all is good. If I think that I’m a kind person but rob old ladies but deny to myself that I rob old ladies then my fantasy and reality have utterly separated. See what I mean?

Ok, so kind of like say one thing and do another?  ie...W saying I struggle going out with my friends, but goes out and closes places down and gets tagged in silly drunken pictures all over social media?

[Enabler]

A bit like that yes, especially if she for example says to you that she hardly goes out... yet goes out most nights and appears on FB all sorts of upside down.

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 3 is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339930.msg13079877#msg13079877

Thank you.