Punitive measures

[AskingWhy]

As we know, BPDs are often NPD.  pwBPD exhibit many of the other PDs in their behaviour.

When my uBPD is unhappy with anyone or anything, he projects his rage onto your truly.  It can be a bad day at work, dealing with his uNPD F, coping with abuse from his adult children, all of whom are in the NPD/BPD spectrum.

Several days ago, H told me he would take me to an antiques and craft show about an hour from where we live. As some of you know, I have medical issues that sometimes prevent me from driving.  

Then, one day before the event, H gets angry at me, and tells me he will not "reward" my bad behaviour with taking me to this event. He knows I dearly love these shows and I looked forward eagerly to going, and yet H "punished" me by not taking me.  H says he hates the lack of house cleaning.  To be honest, being married to him has depressed me so much that it's a great feat to just get out of bed in the morning and shower for the day.  I know that H is quite delighted with himself for having my hopes crushed.  He delights in my disappointment.

I run a small home business inherited from my parents, and H told me he hopes the business would "burn down."  What kind of husband says things like this?  Answer:  one with BPD.  

I have not cried in years at his abuse, and now I feel like crying.  He took off in his sports car to meet up with his car buddy for a scenic drive. I am at home, on my keyboard alone with the pets and feel like crying.  They sense something.  The dogs are at my feet and the cat is curled on the armchair next to me.

So here I am, and the antique show is over. There was even a short spot on the local news and I caught a glimpse of the nice furniture and china ware.  I felt such a sense of pain that my own H would happily and so easily deprive me of something that brings me so much delight.  

It's like I am looking at a chasm where there was once the impression of a lush landscape.  This was the painting of a landscape--one shown to me when my H love bombed me more than 20 years ago.  The painting is now stripped away and now I see only the stark ravine between myself and my H.  

Needless to say, I won't be helping any of his family.  I am secretly quite amused at the chaos with his adult children, their spouses and their children.  All of his children are in the BPD/NPD spectrum.  His S, nearly 30 and addicted to drugs and alcohol, and from whom I never hear, offered to do some landscaping and handy work for my business--at a cost, of course.  Have these people no shame?  This is a young man who demanded his father divorce me before he dropped out of college and took to the streets.

[ct21218]

You are placing expectations on him to be reasonable and kind, but that's just not who he is.  Next time, do you have a friend who could take you or could you take a car service?  He is who he is and I don't think he's likely to change because his behavior works for him.  What can you do for yourself that doesn't involve him or his cooperation?

[Notwendy]

I learned about dependency with BPD mom. If I want or need anything from her- that’s exactly what she uses when she’s in victim mode or wants to punish me.

Early on - H would agree to watch kids while I had a work meeting. At last minute he’d change his mind. I would be stranded with nobody to watch kids and unable to go.

The solution ? If I really wanted to do something I would find a babysitter.

I do not ask or depend on my mother for anything important to me.

It’s hard to not be interdependent with a spouse - but this transportation issue has happened before. The solution ? If someone is unreliable - if it’s important to you - don’t rely on them.

I don’t know what resources are available to you but cabs, Uber’s, are probably more reliable than you H.

Imagine him saying “I’m not taking you “ and you say “ok honey I have a ride” and go with a friend, take a cab - and have a lovely time.

I know you feel a husband should do this for his wife but he is who he is and it’s not possible to change him. But it is possible to call a friend, a cab, and do what you want to do .

[AskingWhy]

Thank you, CT and NW, for the comments and suggestions.  Yes, I know my H is BPD and often shows his NPD side.  I need to stop relying on H, stop expecting him to change, and really stop learning to care about him.  Yes, I am divorcing him in my heart.  I felt a change today that I had never felt before.  I woke up this morning, and I don't seem to care about H any more.  He's like a stranger.  His anger and disapproval of me doesn't seem to bother me as much.  In the past, in my codependency, an angry work from him or a divorce threat would send me into panic and tears.  I look at him now like a stranger or just a room mate.

Any how, I secretly am amused at each and every mis fortune I hear about his family, especially his adult children who are in the uNPD and uBPD spectrum. All of his children abused me when they were adolescents and now as adults, although less so since they all live on their own.  (When their M kicked them all out of the house when they turned 18, they moved in with H and me to live and attend university.)  H did not lift a finger as they verbally attacked me and tried to get their father to divorce me.  (All of them were/are covertly incested with their F.)  The children seemingly constantly suffer the consequences of their poor decisions, self centredness and cruelty to others:  obesity and poor health, failing marriages and R/Ss, problems at work, alcohol and drug addictions, and the list goes on.  (One D bullied a co worker so badly the co worker was transferred to a branch office clear across town.  The D took great pleasure in relating this and had a stomach turning sense of self satisfaction.) 

I have kindly tried to give advice and have repeatedly been told to mind my own business.

H suffers so much worrying about his little train wrecks thanks to his poor and permissive parenting (likely from his guilt as a divorced dad) and their being raised by their uNPD mother, H's X W who cheated on him after 10 years of marriage and then left to marry her lover (she devalued him and discarded him.)

Every time H tries to hurt me with some punishment he feels is justified for his unhappiness with me, I remind myself of the own private H@ll he feels when one of his children experiences a misfortune.  SIL did not get the job he applied for?  What a shame?  Grand child removed from the preschool classroom due to tantrum and violence to other students and the teacher?  What a pity.  D wind up in hospital due to mental health issues?  How unfortunate.  Life has a way to even the playing field.  People make their own free choices to be cruel to others and eventually it comes around to bite them in the back.  What goes around comes around. 

I stand back and watch the sh*t show.

[ct21218]

I don't think that is particularly healthy either.  I would suggest detaching the the point that you are indifferent to him or his kids.  You have said that you are financially dependent on him and that's why you stay.  I have seen many of your posts and they all have the same complaints.  You seem to wake up each day hoping that he's changed.  That is simply not going to happen.  If you are choosing to stay, then you have to live with the positives and negatives of that choice.  Accept your husband for who he is, not who you wish he was.  Get your own life and hobbies and create your own happiness.  Be more independent.  If living with him is truly intolerable, then you will need to explore other options, such as a separation and the financial consequences that come from that.  I have to be honest, you seem stuck in this place where you are surprised by his behavior, when he has shown you for decades that this is truly who he is.  Your life will not change until take new actions.

[Notwendy]

While I can understand your feelings about your H's disappointment with his own children and how they treat him, I agree that this isn't really good for you in the long run.

Considering you plan to stay with your H for a while at least, it would be better for you to focus on how you can make yourself happy with your own life- take the focus off him, off his children, and on to you.

It's not about working on not caring about him, it's about caring about you.

It's better to have a lovely time at the next antique show, than to enjoy seeing your H mistreated by his kids.

Do you see the difference- one is a positive investment in your happiness, the other is dwelling on him and his feelings.

There are ways to get transportation. If your disability requires someone to assist you on outings, then there are caregivers you can hire to take you on outings.

I agree it would be nice if your H helped you, but he is who he is.

It would have been nice if my H kept his word about watching the kids, but he didn't- so if something was that important to me, I would get a reliable sitter. Then I got to go out, and that was better than sitting at home feeling angry and resentful.

We can find ways to make ourselves happy, invest in ourselves, even if our spouses aren't invested in what we like to do.

What can you do to broaden your world and your friend group? Maybe one small step. Is there a woman's group, a volunteer group, a book club, church group in your area you might like to join? I agree if what I had to look forward to cleaning house and a grouchy spouse, I would not have motivation either. Can you hire a cleaning service? Even just one time to get a handle on things. Do you like to see movies? Read books? Go to a museum or park- try to do one thing that makes you happy.

I know depression is tough and that it takes much more to get over this- I'm not suggesting this is the antidote for that. I hope you have a T to work this out with. But I do think it is better to focus on doing what makes you happy than on what your H is experiencing.

[Cat Familiar]

100% what Notwendy said. 

[AskingWhy]

As many of you know, I am staying with my uBPD H for financial reasons, at least for the meantime.

I do like to go and do things to please myself, buy I will only have my husband to "pay" since he thinks he owns me and thinks my time is his to dictate.

I know he is BPD and he is essentially an empty shell of a person, one who defines himself by his adult children (the only thing he has, really) and his sports car and hobbies.  He has no sense of who he is, the true definition of a BPD.

This evening, I was putting one of our larger cats in his lap while he was on the sofa.  The cat likes to cuddle with H while H watches TV.

H was immediately angered as the cat jumped onto the sofa.  He whined and exclaimed, "You pushed him at me.  You deliberately pushed him at me!"  What a stupid, juvenile, whiny allegation!  The cat half-jumped onto the sofa, and H was whining about it!

I immediate came back with how silly the comment was.  I laughed at H, saying he was like a whiny teenager.

You guessed it:  H took his pillow from our bedroom and is sleeping on the living room couch.

I am reaching the end of my rope.  This is giving me the motivation to call my lawyer and confirm my legal rights.  I am getting sick and tired of being married to man who is like a teenage girl--moody, petulant, demanding and selfish.  

Then H had to nerve to say I was bi polar and needed to have my head examined.  This is common in gaslighting when the mentally ill person alleges the partner needs mental health care.  Truth be told, one of his own Ds is likely BPD:  suicide attempts, sleeping with her boss and being fired from a job, jumping from jobs to job and career to career, promiscuity, constant friction with whatever boyfriend is in her life, etc.

His whole darned family is a mess!

[AskingWhy]

I want to add to the above post.

H came home in a bad mood.  Again, I am often depressed, and it's hard to even get out of bed in the morning.  Living with a uBPD H for over 20 years have done this to me.

H was picking at almost everything I did.  Okay,  everything that I did.  The way I cooked, how I fed the pets, how the laundry was not folded.  I finally had enough.  The last straw was when whiny-a$$ H dealt with the cat.

Lundy Bancroft calls anger in the abused partner part of waking up to the abuse.  I find I am no longer attracted to my H physically.  I don't even want him to touch me.  As we know, s@x for a borderline man is not so much for intimacy with a spouse, but to briefly soothe the terror and lack of identity they feel. It's a horrid way for me to feel like this after my H and I have been intimate, that I was only my H's s@xual pacifier.

[once removed]

It's a horrid way for me to feel like this after my H and I have been intimate, that I was only my H's s@xual pacifier.

what happened? did the two of you have makeup sex after the fight?

[AskingWhy]

what happened? did the two of you have makeup sex after the fight?

Oh, no, we're nowhere near that.  He's pouting himself to sleep on the sofa. It's his version of withholding affection and showing his dislike/disapproval of me.  

It's a vicious cycle where I won't want to deal with H when he's being a BPD a$$, then I get accused of being a cold fish and not loving.  How can I be loving to a man who is being an a$$?  H favors his adult children over me in times like this, especially the Ds, who become like mistresses emotionally.  When we have argued, he calls them and confides in them, thus triangulating them.  On one occasion, one of his Ds (likely BPD herself) called me up on the phone and berated me for supposedly abusing her father.  

He idealises them and devalues me.  (He does not live with them, and they are extensions of himself so they can do no wrong.)  H comes home from work and gets hyper critical of me, nit picking things I do or did not do, bossing me around like a military drill sergeant, then the accusations and name calling, all the way down to the divorce inferences and outright threats.  

This evening, I just lost it.  I got sick of the juvenile crap H was throwing my way, and the cat incident was the last straw.  (Whining that I threw the cat at him was an example of the thin skin of a BPD.)  He blew everything out of proportion, finally flipping me the bird and saying, "F*$k you!"  That was it. I had enough.  I launched into him verbally for all he was worth, reminding him of what his adult children said to his face to insult him when he did not give them what they wanted (keep in mind his image of them is perfection) and reminding him of some of the things his uNPD X W said and did to him.  If he wants to say what a horrid, useless wife I am, and how I am the worst person in the world (remember we are talking to a BPD here), he needs some basis of comparison.   pwBPD literally cannot perceive anything than what they are experiencing in the present, and he need a reminder of just how these "people of perfection" treated him.

H is pouting over a name I called him, when he himself called me the worst names for years:  the C-word, b$tch, and other names.  I have developed an immunity to them, to be honest, and they no longer affect me.  For years, I would cry myself to sleep after he raged at me and devalued me, sleeping on the couch, or leaving the house in a rage, saying he was divorcing me.   I thought I was the person at fault in the R/S.  It took me years to discover the dynamics of being married to a pwBPD.  He does not suspect there is anything wrong with me and blames me for, yes, everything.  He is, however, aware of his F's behavior, although not to understanding the man is likely uNPD.  

[Baglady]

Hi Askingwhy,

Just a casual outside observation (that is really meant well) but I also notice that you readily participate in the vicious cycle with your hwBPD.  It takes two to play the game.  Many members on this site have offered you great advice in the past but I don't see any indication of change on your part to be honest.  Just the same cycle of seemingly never-ending complaints about your h and stepchildren, your (often justified!) anger and indignation over and over and over. Rinse and repeat...

Are you truly interested in changing the dynamic?  Truly?

Maybe - if you are being honest with yourself - the cycle is familiar and it's just too overwhelming/terrifying to get off the ride?

I get it, so been there and have the t-shirt to prove it.

Warmly 
B

[ct21218]

AskingWhy, you have been stuck for awhile.  You and Snowglobe have similar behaviors. You put your happiness in the hands of your husbands and expect they they are going to somehow change.  I understand that you are in an intolerable situation, but you choose to stay.  You can either have financial security or you can move on and have peace.  If you want the financial security then you are choosing everything that goes along with that - his behavior, his relationship with his kids, his criticism, etc.  He is not going to change.  You can either stay and take your happiness out of his hands and create your own happiness or you can move on.  You are not accepting him for who he is.  Acceptance is not approval. 

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear AW-

If you felt better about yourself / within yourself, do you think you’d have the ability to take a different view of your life, Your H and possibly your marriage?

You’re making a pretty huge statement when you say you’re barely able to get out of bed in the morning due to your depression.  Do you value YOURSELF enough to address YOUR issues with a T?

Nothing changes until something changes.

In addition, I believe you’ve said many times over the last several weeks that you were going to call your lawyer to find out what your rights are.  Yet earlier in this thread, you again state you are “going to” do this.  Why the hesitation in making that call?

Obtaining this knowledge doesn’t “obligate” you to USE the knowledge.  In fact, most would advise you to keep what you learn to yourself.  Your paralysis is hurting you.

Thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi AW-

I’ve been thinking of you, saw that you posted responses on another thread tonight and was hoping to see a response on this thread.

Can you please update to the responses you received here?

I know you can feel better than you do.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[AskingWhy]

Hi AW-

I’ve been thinking of you.

Can you please update to the responses you received here?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

Thank you, Gems.  I am coming out of my depression and beginning to stop sorry for myself.  What is done is passed, and I can't change my FOO and my siblings.

My T is helping me get over self esteem issues and accept my FOO.  I am also learning to accept my uBPD H and stop trying to expect he'll wake up one day and be a changed man.  Likewise for his adult children.

[Gemsforeyes]

I’m glad to hear this, AW.  And happy to hear you’re working on your depression with a T.

I don’t mean to “push you”, yet I feel compelled to do so... for a few reasons.  My FOO still confuses me.  Tomorrow (today actually) marks 27 years ago that my dad passed.  I miss him terribly even now.  I was him, but in a “girl”... way too giving, hard working to a fault, amazing sense of humor.  Except for the temper.  We’ve got this “Spanish blood” and his anger showed.  Mine has been inside.  Always.  And mine has always been directed toward myself.  Not uncommon.  My mom definitely has NPD traits, even now at 87.  I recall almost zero hugs from her.  I remember a housekeeper hugging me, comforting me and braiding my hair under our carport.  My heart still hurts when I think of how she disappeared one day.  I’m 61 now.  Some things you just don’t forget. Just the other day my mom almost “berated” me for not wanting to take my little brother around the block in the stroller when he was born.  I was 3.5 years old!  Good GOD.

Then there was the 19-year marriage to my very emotionally abusive exH (NPD, with BPD traits).  AW... I denied denied denied I was still depressed after losing EVERYTHING.  I denied I was abused (except for the violent incident).  And then...  my uBPDbf said in an email “I think you’re depressed”.  I brushed it off thinking,  “Pot meet kettle”.  But then, When my best girlfriend passed away suddenly there was NO denying it.  And  I froze.  Couldn’t do ANYTHING except the bare necessities.

AW- I thought, OK, either I die now or do something, anything.  Contemplated you know what.  But couldn’t leave my dog.

Posted here.  Searched for help.  Opened up to uBPDbf a bit more.  Stopped being “afraid” of him.  Stopped being afraid of myself.  Stopped being so afraid of being “alone”.  Used the tools and he responded to the changes in ME.

You see AW, that’s  what I mean when I say “nothing changes until something changes”.  I approached uBPDbf differently.  I stopped blaming him for my part in things.  I was repeatedly molested as a child and I was violently raped in college.  I recognized that I have some “traits”.. (my T confirmed with me).  My traits are quiet, actually they’re silent except when I’m alone.  But they’re there and undoubtedly uBPDbf could feel them.  He could feel my resentment growing toward him.  It’s still a “work in progress”, but incredible progress has been made.  His ridiculous lies have lessened dramatically.  His apologies and acknowledgments when he’s short with me come quickly and from his own recognition.  He hasn’t screamed in 10 months.  He has acknowledged the “emotional incest” (sickening) with his NPD mother.  He battles against her twisting.

I believe strongly that if your H didn’t love you, he would have left.  He hasn’t left.  Yes, he’s emotionally deficient.  But as long as he’s there, and you’re aware, YOU can improve your marriage.  But my friend, you’ve got to erase what happened with those kids of his years ago.  He knows they’re NOT what he dreamed they would be.  And that hurts him.  Everyday.  You don’t need to rub his face in that. You can stand by him, say you’re sorry he’s disappointed and hurt, but that his control of the situation was limited.  After all, his exW exerted the control during their formative years.  He did the BEST he could.  You CAN improve your life with your H.

If you’ve decided to stay in your marriage, then decide to be happier IN it WITH your H.  And tell him.  Tell him you want to be happier with him.  He WILL respond.  Mine did.  In a really good way.

(Sorry...didn’t mean to hijack your post... just wish to encourage you, my friend)

Warmly,
Gems

[Notwendy]

Not a hijack at all Gems. I think many of us can relate to childhood issues and bringing them into our relationships. While they may have been a long time ago, when our spouses say or do something hurtful, I think our childhood feelings or the "messages" we felt about ourselves can get bundled into that.

I understand that even if your father died 27 years ago, you can still miss him. It hasn't been that long since my father passed, but I still miss him too, and yes, my FOO is confusing. My BPD mother also doesn't show much affection and berates me for things I did as a small child. Her perspective is in victim mode. If I spit up as a baby ( all babies do) as far as she was concerned, I did it on purpose to mess up her blouse. As an adult I can see that is disordered but hearing these things as a child is different.

I had to work on my own childhood issues, take care of some fears, before things could improve in my relationship too.

For AW- I am glad you are in T. The issue with your H and his adult kids is a hurt that seems to be repeating itself. While I don't disagree with the reality of this-- the fact that this is repeatedly hurtful to the extent that it is- does make me wonder what other "hurts" or messages are bundled up with this. On my part, I made "meaning" out of my H's behavior. I wasn't a priority for my BPD mother. I didn't feel loved. So I interpreted my H's actions in the same manner. But my H had his own separate thoughts and reasons.

For AW- I'm not asking you to try to make your H's life easier or him happy. However, since you choose to stay in the marriage for now, I am glad to see you seeing a T, working on your depression- to make things better for you. I think your H has made some attempts- he did buy a ring you wanted, maybe it was too late or didn't add up to what he does for his kids- but he did try. You may feel beyond wanting to try when it comes to him, but you could benefit from not escalating the conflict too. I hope you will do some of that for you.

[braveSun]

I think many of us can relate to childhood issues and bringing them into our relationships. While they may have been a long time ago, when our spouses say or do something hurtful, I think our childhood feelings or the "messages" we felt about ourselves can get bundled into that.

I second that. It's when I feel hurt by my partner's words or actions that I feel like a little girl. I know that feeling well. That's my cue that I am being triggered and falling back into how I was feeling when I was a small kid and got hurt by a parent.

Brave

[AskingWhy]

Gems, NW and BraveSun, thank you for the comments.

I received a new type of threat from uBPD H today:  an adultery threat.  I will mention this to my T at the next meeting.  Let's just say when a husband is haranguing you from the time he comes home from work to the time he goes to bed, intimacy is not the first thing on your mind.  The insults, criticisms, blatant divorce threats, going nuts at the prospect of seeing his adult children (especially the Ds), don't make for a woman wanting closeness.

As H learned about masculinity from his uNPD F, H really does not know how to make a woman feel special.  His own F, after 60 years of marriage, buried his W with only the gold wedding band she got on the day she was married.  Not even a special gold watch, bracelet or ring for the many marriage milestones they witnessed.  It was only after I became exasperated and told my H off that he was shamed into buying me a nice piece of jewellery.   Yes, NW, it was a very nice ring and he did try to make me happy on that account, at least for the moment he was trying.

I think he went from zero to 100 today after a bad day at work.  Within minutes, H was raging and saying he would find a mistress to make him happy.  I had been contending with my B and nephew who are food and alcohol addicted; both are obese.  (N dropped out of college some years ago, and dreams of being a rock musician.  He is 32 now, lives at home and quit his barista job in 2010.  He is addicted to online fantasy games.  Now he works in a music store selling instruments.  Minimum wage and no potential for a real career.)

I am trying to keep my head above water in my depression, and the T helps me.  She knows my H has BPD features and it gets hard being hurt over and over again.   It reminds me of my abusive uBPD M when I was a child.

[Notwendy]

How do you feel about the threat to get a mistress?

I can understand how unromantic it would feel to be intimate with someone who isn't kind to you, and also depression can affect the desire to be intimate ( and medication for depression can do this too).

The thing is- the two of you are spiraling more into hostility and anger. If a person wants intimacy and can't get it in their marriage, it puts them in a sort of bind. I am not condoning adultery, but do you expect your H to be content with a loveless marriage too?

I think you have the right to be angry and not interested in repairing the relationship if this is how you feel about it. That's a choice you certainly can make. But looking at the  direction this is taking, what do you expect to happen for the two of you?

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear AW-

I am so sorry you are now faced with your H’s “threat” of taking on a mistress.  The way I see it, it’s an empty threat.  He doesn’t mean it and is saying it, or likely screaming it because he’s not getting the attention from you.  Men don’t normally announce ahead of time that they’re going cruising... they just don’t (especially disordered men).  They like to think they’re super discreet in all their activities... they like to think they’re “smooth operators”; but they’re not, at least mine isn’t, wasn’t.  Far from it.

Nope.  Sometimes Your H wants a mind reader as a wife.  He wants you to “just know” what he wants and needs.  He wants you to greet him with kisses and a big hug each time he walks through the door no matter WHAT you’ve been doing or facing, because if you haven’t caught on yet, what you’ve been doing or facing does. NOT.  MATTER.  At all.  Not in his mind.  And it never will.  There’s that Goldie oldie song “hey little girl”.  Comb your hair, fix your make-up... “don’t think because there’s a ring on your finger...” bla bla bla.  And I DID this, my friend.  An hour before my BPDbf was coming over, I’d take my bath, wash my hair, smell lovely, breathe deeply and make it all about HIM.  It was NEVER about me.  I’ve known this for years.  I just didn’t want to say it out loud.

How I see this, AW, is that you and your H are at a HARD impasse of sorts.  Someone’s got to make the first move on being loving and showing affection.  It can start with a pat on the arm, or leg.  A kiss on the cheek.  But don’t you want some type of change to remove this escalation to “mistress” threats?  And affection can and normally does take the air out of other negative emotions as well, because the connection is strengthened and reestablished.  Intimacy is a good thing, I believe.

We chose these guys /gals.  We chose to stay with them.  The good and the bad.  The order and disorder.  And we can choose to leave.  The order and disorder.

I had a reckoning of sorts on Saturday night.  I prayed to my late dad.  I begged my dad for an answer.  And he gave me an answer.

I lit the fuse for our ending on Sunday.  I couldn’t end it myself (yes, cowardly), so I subtly did something I knew would set off my BPDbf.  And when he worked to calm himself down (because I’d worked so HARD over the last 10 months), I lit it again.  I really needed him gone and this thing OVER.  The whole thing was a farce.  The lies and twisting I’ve accepted.  But mine is different than yours, AW.  It IS different.  My BPDbf is SO dishonest.  I could no longer tolerate this lie.

AW, from what you’ve said, I don’t think your H is a liar.  I don’t.  I understand you’re having sadness about the state of your brother’s and nephew’s lives.  That IS sad; however you KNOW your H is NOT the person to give you advice or comfort around these issues.  These need to be discussed with a girlfriend.  Our BPD partners simply do not have the bandwidth for that.  And you cannot “fix” your B or N.  More codependent behaviors... I get it, sister.  I’m one, too.  If your B or N want advice or help, they’ll ask.  So as a reforming coD, we often do listen, and then can ask ourselves...did he ASK me for advice or input?  It’s a hard Not to pipe up.  Hard NOT to “help”.  And even harder NOT to take on their pain, their feelings.  But some people are content with their status quo, even if we’re not happy for them.  I now say to my constantly complaining friends...”you’ll do something about this when you’re ready.”  And sometimes I find the strength to end the conversation with certain friends if their complaints are repeated (years) and exhausting me.

Your thoughts, my friend?

Warmly,
Gems

[AskingWhy]

I am so sorry you are now faced with your H’s “threat” of taking on a mistress.  The way I see it, it’s an empty threat.  He doesn’t mean it and is saying it, or likely screaming it because he’s not getting the attention from you.  Men don’t normally announce ahead of time that they’re going cruising... they just don’t (especially disordered men).  

How I see this, AW, is that you and your H are at a HARD impasse of sorts.  Someone’s got to make the first move on being loving and showing affection.  It can start with a pat on the arm, or leg.  A kiss on the cheek.  But don’t you want some type of change to remove this escalation to “mistress” threats?  And affection can and normally does take the air out of other negative emotions as well, because the connection is strengthened and reestablished.  Intimacy is a good thing, I believe.

I lit the fuse for our ending on Sunday.  I couldn’t end it myself (yes, cowardly), so I subtly did something I knew would set off my BPDbf.  And when he worked to calm himself down (because I’d worked so HARD over the last 10 months), I lit it again.  I really needed him gone and this thing OVER.  The whole thing was a farce.  The lies and twisting I’ve accepted.  But mine is different than yours, AW.  It IS different.  My BPDbf is SO dishonest.  I could no longer tolerate this lie.

Dear Gems, thank you for the insights.

Yes, I do think that somewhere, somehow, my H loves me.  It's twisted and saddening, but the love is there.  Many years ago, when he took his children on a week-long trip through a state park, he thought he lost his wedding ring.  He drove back on a trail 30 miles to the old campsite to look for the ring, making the children (about ages 8 through 10) look, too.  When he arrived home, he hesitatingly told me he had lost his wedding ring, he was very upset and apologetic, but came clean; I simply became quietly upset (angry, actually), knowing he must have lost it in a state of ecstasy in the presence of his children, hiking and camp cooking.  Then he found the ring in his backpack while cleaning it.  He ran over to me, almost in tears, so happy at finding the ring.  He was actually quite frightened at how angry I would be when he thought he had lost his wedding ring.  I know my uBPD H loves me on some level.

Thank you, Gems, for pointing out the fact that pwBPD are not like NPDs, although they can have NPD features.  I know my H was raised by a jerk of a uNPD F, and his childhood was not happy.  

I do hope your father sent you an answer that you can take to heart.  

Hugs and thanks.  

The hard party is the everyday crazy I have to tolerate.    

[Enabler]

I simply became quietly upset (angry, actually), knowing he must have lost it in a state of ecstasy in the presence of his children, hiking and camp cooking.  Then he found the ring in his backpack while cleaning it.  He ran over to me, almost in tears, so happy at finding the ring.  He was actually quite frightened at how angry I would be when he thought he had lost his wedding ring.

Hi AskingWhy,

How often would you say that you get quietly angry over you know but you don't know?

I ask because I know that I do this a lot... I think most people do this a lot. We take surface information and roll out a scenario in our heads... could be a positive scenario, could be a negative one... but none the less we 'jump to conclusions' and react with internalised or externalised emotions. I've 'known' many many things (positive and negative) about my W which have later been proven with evidence that I was completely wrong. I am learning to not judge information when it passes me by. I absorb it yes, I add it to the pile of evidence that formulates my reality, I might even subtly dig for clarification, but on the whole I allow things to pass by me with minimal emotional reaction... One thing I now KNOW FOR ABSOLUTE CERTAIN is that I rarely have all the facts with which to formulate an emotional reaction immediately.

These jump to conclusion emotions WILL leak out of you from every pore even if you try and suppress them.

Enabler

[Gemsforeyes]

Hey there-

Boy oh boy Enabler... that “jump to conclusions” topic really hits the nail on my head.  I actually addressed my tendency to do this with my T several months ago.  Turns out it’s one of my BPD traits; and it showed up differently with my exH than with BPDbf.  And I also do this with my work stuff at times.

With exH, his lies by omission led me to assume the worst (I was afraid, but not angry); and when I learned the truth I felt great relief.  I SHOULD have been angry.

Case in point:  we had an awful neighbor who had run-ins with my exH and had threatened him with a shotgun.  One day I was cleaning the huge south facing window and there was what looked like a bullet hole.  I was scared to death.  At dinner that night, I told my exH about it and he laughed and told me no no no... he had made the hole himself when a rock flew up from the weed eater.  I laughed from relief.  And... I paid the $600 to repair that window.

There was another time when he was NOT hospitalized in a bicycling accident; he was “only” arrested.  And again, I was “relieved” he wasn’t hurt, rather than angry about how the information was relayed.

With BPDbf, my “jumping to conclusions” is based on the FACT that he has been taking things from my home without telling me (yes, actually stealing at times) for the last 6 years.  So when something is missing, I become enraged.  80% of the time he HAS taken it.  About 18% of the time, he has used it and not put it back properly.  I’m not allowed to ask him to put it where it belongs (that’s “criticizing”).  And there’s the 2% where I completely JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS and he’s had nothing to do with the missing item.

Today, I am so glad this is over.  I don’t have to HIDE my most sensitive belongings anymore.

AW - I know this may be a sensitive topic, but will you consider talking about your anger and how that is expressed to your H?  And to your  s-kids?

I understand our anger is a touchy subject, and we spend so much time trying to manage our BPD partners’ rage and emotions that there seems no space for ours.  I also see that once I finally learned to openly express my anger, things really changed.  And now I’ve got to “manage” this emotion I’ve just learned to express.

I’m not sure if you read that piece about anger not knowing about “time”, or something of that nature.  So in essence when we express anger now, we may actually be angry at something that happened long ago.

What do you think?

And AW... I understand each day is an enormous challenge with the “crazy”. 

Warmly,
Gems

[Enabler]

I also see that once I finally learned to openly express my anger, things really changed.  And now I’ve got to “manage” this emotion I’ve just learned to express.

Have you also learnt how to spot when you're getting angry when you don't know the full facts, when you're judging based on assumptions.

Naturally I am quick to judge and quick to react in anger. I am moving towards being slow to judge and slow to respond in _________ . Anger is a blunt weapon, there are so many better more specific precision variants. It takes time and effort but I've saved myself numerous times now from saying something when I'm not 100% sure, where I would have regretted that reaction.

Does this change my W's behaviour, no, and not in an attempt to make this 'win / lose' if you know without any doubt that you're correct in being righteous, it's considerably more powerful... similarly, you lose credibility if you react when you're incorrect... massive life skill.

People talk a lot about 'gut feeling' and 'instincts'... a lot of the time we're listening to our own cognitive biases, which are inherently flawed... on a mega scale.

Enabler

[Gemsforeyes]

Hi Enabler-

No, I don’t spot it until I’m fully taken over by the emotion.

My thing is that I actually say NOTHING to the person I’m angry at - the “accused”.  When I jump to conclusions, my heart races, I get the shakes and my anxiety boils over.  I usually go into a rage privately in my home.   I punish myself and if the outcome is NOT what I originally thought, it takes me a good half hour to calm myself down... and then I call myself all kinds of self-loathing choice names.  I scream at myself.  This behavior really began after my exH physically assaulted me in 2011 and seems to have gotten worse through this relationship with BPDbf. 

Now that I have hopefully “ended” this relationship, I’m wondering what items will be “missing”.  He stayed at my house alone and I do know he once again went snooping, took some things and did other odd things.

It’s a horrible feeling, don’t you think? 

Gems

[Enabler]

Yes, it is a horrible feeling... but you're on the road to being able to help yourself... you can identify the physical sensations of it happening. The chemical signals are waaaaaaaaaaaaay faster than your cognition. If you can feel (literally) the emotions and be aware of them you have a chance of saving yourself from yourself.

Next time it happens, say to yourself "I don't know the truth yet, I 'might' think I know the truth but I don't KNOW yet". Absorb information for a bit and calm yourself down. Typically there are thousands of possible scenarios, many of which are not malicious at all, which could be plausible, without being naive or foolish. Maybe we live with 'bad' people. Maybe these people do things to hurt us intentionally... but maybe they don't. Good people do bad things, bad people do good things. Riding our own presumptuous tenancies out to gather more intel provides valuable breathing space and minimises conflict.

Do not beat yourself up for thinking negative things about other people. To some extent we can't help the conclusions our sub-conscious monkey comes up with... what we can have control over is our reaction to our monkeys conclusions, how we interact with that monkey and what control we let it have over ourselves. By all means beat yourself up for overtly reacting to Monkey talk.

Enabler 

[Harri]

Thread reached the max post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 2 of the discussion is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=340471.msg13083342#msg13083342

Thank you.