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eliason

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« on: October 10, 2019, 12:15:52 AM »

Hi! I'm taking a leap into the void here, and reaching out because I need some support and understanding about what's happening in my relationship.

I've been reading about BPD and my partner is exhibiting some traits.

She is irritable most of the time. She explodes and has extreme reactions to minor and inconsistent things. She varies wildly between smotheringly affectionate and shutting down / stonewalling and threatening to leave the relationship. Her mood swings are variable and intense and seem to come at random, but are provoked by very specific trauma triggers. They usually last between 15 minutes to a few hours. She is quick to anger and gets aggressive and controlling incredibly quickly. I go from black to white almost overnight, she views people as either good or bad, and has major issues with trusting that I'm on her side.

When I bring these things up as calmly as possible (without accusing or blaming), I get gaslit (that didn't happen, this other thing happened, this is what you've done to me) and get the behavior turned around on me (you do this to me, look what you made me do).

I feel constantly small and invisible and shamed and belittled and I feel like I'm in a fog. I'm not sure if this is BPD or what or what the hell is going on but I need some help in figuring it out and learning what to do about it.

I've been in therapy for two years now (I suffer from chronic depression and probably some bipolar stuff) and have been getting more stable and more regulated. We had been going to couples therapy for about 6 months now until suddenly (after two productive and very vulnerable sessions) she said it became too intense, and rewrote the story to say that she had been telling me she wanted to stop for 4 months and I wasn't listening and making her do it.

I know she has major body image issues and major self-esteem issues and major anger issues. She feels like her identity is unstable and she finds it extremely difficult to self-reflect.

There's a lot of trauma wrapped up in there too — a lot that I don't know specifics about except that it's serious and seriously bad. Both childhood and adult.

I'm trying my best to preserve my self, boundaries, and space but it's so difficult for me to not step in and "help" or "carry" her — I have my own anxious people-pleaser vulnerabilities. I've been getting stronger and better about this but I don't know if it is ever going to change. I don't know what to do, I honestly don't. I want to know more about what this is about.

Thanks for reading. I'm hopeful and scared and hoping to find some support out here.
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2019, 12:37:21 AM »

hi eliason, and Welcome

Excerpt
She is irritable most of the time. She explodes and has extreme reactions to minor and inconsistent things. She varies wildly between smotheringly affectionate and shutting down / stonewalling and threatening to leave the relationship. Her mood swings are variable and intense and seem to come at random, but are provoked by very specific trauma triggers. They usually last between 15 minutes to a few hours. She is quick to anger and gets aggressive and controlling incredibly quickly. I go from black to white almost overnight, she views people as either good or bad, and has major issues with trusting that I'm on her side.

boy do i hear you.

this is pretty much par for the course when it comes to dealing with a loved one who has difficulty regulating their emotions.

can you give us a recent example?

Excerpt
I've been in therapy for two years now (I suffer from chronic depression and probably some bipolar stuff) and have been getting more stable and more regulated. We had been going to couples therapy for about 6 months now until suddenly (after two productive and very vulnerable sessions) she said it became too intense, and rewrote the story to say that she had been telling me she wanted to stop for 4 months and I wasn't listening and making her do it.

this is not a great sign. if shes threatening breakups, theres something boiling under the surface, something going on.

you mention that youve been getting more stable and regulated. how so? do you think shes responding to that?
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2019, 02:24:57 AM »

Let me join once removed in welcoming you.  Many of our members have had experiences similar to yours.  These are incredibly tough relationships, and we all need support.  Let us know a bit more about your situation.

RC
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eliason

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« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2019, 11:25:21 AM »

Thanks for the kind words, and I'm really trying to be as empathetic, sympathetic, and emotionally supportive as I can be without burning myself out or sacrificing my own needs.

Part of the whole thing is I'm having a VERY difficult time sorting out what's valid and what's not valid -- when I'm acting out of line or doing something unreasonable or "not normal" or when something else is really going on. I go back and forth on this so often -- I'm highly empathetic and have had trouble developing an independent sense of self, so I tend to give my emotional (and real) reality over to somebody else's perceptions. However I can't ignore my intuition that something just isn't right.

I'm really looking for clarity and help here -- I honestly want to know what my actions and her actions look like to some neutral third parties who have knowledge about how this works. I'm not looking for someone to just reinforce my views or prove that I'm "right." I know this is super hard for me to do, but I just want to say it because I want to be accountable for it.

can you give us a recent example?

There are a few that come to mind but I'll give two -- Let me know how these sound.


example one:

She has a very bad day at work where she feels invalidated and not respected. This is especially difficult because she took a LONG time to find herself and this job after escaping a toxic job situation in a highly sexist and narcissistic finance firm. She took this job thinking it would be fun, fulfilling, and a place where she could grow personally and professionally. It has turned pretty chaotic and bad pretty quickly, so I think she is grieving about it a little bit. Anyway.

So she has a terrible day, mostly because of her boss. I empathize and say how bad and unacceptable it is for her to be treated that way. I ask: is there anything you can do to stick up for yourself? Can you have a conversation with your manager or boss or say something about how you won't tolerate this behavior anymore? What do you have to lose by saying that? I also say I think it'll make her feel better to do that, to feel seen and heard even if nothing changes.

She says no, it wouldn't do any good, nothing will ever change, nothing is ever going to change so why even try. She says she's reaching her limit with this job and is very close every day to just quitting. Then after a few minutes of empathizing and comforting on this it suddenly escalates into "you're trying to lecture me, you're trying to control me, and you're telling me that I'm doing the wrong thing and that I'm not good enough." She says "everyone at work tells me that I'm doing things wrong and I'm messing up, and then I come home and you tell me that I'm doing everything wrong and that I'm messing up." I wasn't trying to do that at all and I'm totally baffled about how she heard that -- I'm starting to get it and I accept it, but it's hard for me to understand. It feels like anything that doesn't reinforce her feeling and her triangulation (demonizing her boss, avoiding the situation is good and safe) makes her immediately stop trusting me, she thinks I'm abandoning her and criticising her and telling her she's wrong.




example two:

I come home from therapy the other day and my mood is kind of down -- I've been disappointed and frustrated with our relationship recently. She asks "how was therapy, your mood has been different all afternoon" (which is good by the way, 2 months ago she would never have approached it that way and I appreciate it a LOT). I say honestly I feel a little frustrated and disappointed about this big thing that we're working through. She shuts down, pulls back, goes into cross-examination defensive mode, and probes: what exactly are you disappointed about, what are you frustrated with. Her tone and body language is saying "can't let the feeling sit, need to get it out out out and away away away from me."

She escalates and seems hurt and attacked, and withdraws to the armchair (we were at the dinner table) and starts scrolling on the phone in silence. I sit next to her and say, I'm sorry I upset you so much. I'm sorry that something is making you feel attacked but I'm not attacking you. I'm not the bad guy, I think something else is here in the room (she has a major trauma history and my therapist who is a trauma specialist recommended this response). She immediately gets "up" and says "I know what you do, you go to therapy and complain about me and analyze me and then you get your little phrases from your therapist and then you come home and do that and you like it." This has come up before: her telling me I'm analyzing her, manipulating her, that my therapist is manipulating her, that her therapist (when she was in therapy) was manipulating her to try to get her to break up with me. She gets aggressive, raises her voice and tone, and then shuts down completely and withdraws, makes it clear that she doesn't want to talk to me.

this is not a great sign. if shes threatening breakups, theres something boiling under the surface, something going on.

you mention that youve been getting more stable and regulated. how so? do you think shes responding to that?

Just to be clear, I was talking specifically about her asking to end couples therapy not to end the relationship. She has threatened in the past with phrases like "I don't know if we're the right people for each other" and "I don't know if you're the right person for me" after things have gotten particularly emotionally intense for her.

As for me, I've been able to stop slipping into wounded child mode, expecting her to fulfill my every need without expressing it, and getting resentful when she wouldn't. I was in a deep depression earlier this year (I think cause I was seriously opening up some stuff that I hadn't in a LONG while) and didn't have the skills to handle her distress about it very well. We've talked about it, I can articulate much more clearly what I need from her and when. I've been able to set boundaries, and tell her that I don't need her to come in a "fix" things, that it makes me feel inadequate and that she doesn't trust me and is trying to control me even as I tell her it's not her fault and that I realize that comes from some deep-seated childhood identity stuff. I have been more vocal about how I feel without being judgmental -- "that made me feel bad" and "I don't want to do that" and "I don't feel up for it." And have been more clear and articulate about my mood.

I think I'm also not letting her mood drag my mood around as much, and I'm owning my feelings out loud and not asking her to take care of them.

I think she has been responding well to it. I've noticed a lot of changes over the past 4 months -- before that we were in screaming fighting escalating emotionally and verbally abusive territory -- she even got slightly physical once. I can't tell that story right now though.

She has been getting more stable and grounded --- the first week on this job when she was feeling good, respected, and validated was amazing. She was present, grounded, actually in conversations, actually interested and curious about me and my mood, receptive to hearing me as a partner when I'm offering support on work stuff, and generally being here.

I don't know. I feel like I'm in a fog so much of the time and I can't separate out what blindspots and cruelties I have and what she is inflicting and what is real and what isn't. I second guess myself all the time to the point where I'm asking if I'm abusive and manipulative and a terrible person for asking her to change some things about her behavior. At this point I've made it clear that I'm not going to force her to change because nobody can (and that conversation never goes well), but that I'm not going to stop letting her know how her behaviors affect me. I'm not going to just accept all of this without telling her what it does to me, and I'm also going to find ways to manage it and myself without escalating.
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eliason

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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2019, 02:09:11 PM »

It's becoming clear to me that I'm not allowed to be upset without setting of an emotional explosion. Any time I express frustration or disappointment or am just generally upset with anything in the relationship, or even when I bring up a frustrating or harmful behavior -- she blows up, flips it back around on me, and gets upset, angry, aggressive, lashes out, belittles me, gaslights, etc. etc. etc.
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Ozzie101
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« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2019, 02:25:45 PM »

Hi eliason! Welcome new member (click to insert in post)

That's great that you're working on keeping her mood from influencing your mood too much. I've had to work on that a lot, too (still a work in progress).

I have a thought on your example one. With my uBPDh, he doesn't always respond well to suggestions and advice -- even if well-meaning. If it's something he's stressed or worried or insecure about in particular. He's talked to me about it and has told me that, to him, it feels like someone is telling him what to do or criticizing him and telling him he's stupid for not doing it the way the other person says. Even if the person means well. (This is more a problem with his mother than with me). Sometimes, the best thing to do is just listen, commiserate. Ask questions like "What do you want to do?" or "How can I help?" and leave it at that.

One thing I've learned here is that, in living with someone with BPD, it's like I'm learning another language. What I think I'm saying isn't always what I'm really saying.
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eliason

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« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2019, 02:52:40 PM »

I have a thought on your example one. With my uBPDh, he doesn't always respond well to suggestions and advice -- even if well-meaning. If it's something he's stressed or worried or insecure about in particular. He's talked to me about it and has told me that, to him, it feels like someone is telling him what to do or criticizing him and telling him he's stupid for not doing it the way the other person says. Even if the person means well. (This is more a problem with his mother than with me). Sometimes, the best thing to do is just listen, commiserate. Ask questions like "What do you want to do?" or "How can I help?" and leave it at that.

Oh my goodness I can relate to that. I completely agree, and it's something I've started to do and tried really hard to learn. I found that "what do you want to do about it" and "do you want me to help?" are so vital --- suddenly the burden is back on them and not on me anymore.
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2019, 02:50:54 AM »

For Example 1, I think you and Ozzie101 are on the right track.  Even in a relationship between two non-BPD folks, problem solving is often (perhaps usually) not desired after a hard day at work.  You've talked about ways to subtly problem solve, or help them problem solve.  But I've found it helpful sometimes to back up a step further and only empathize.  You don't have to agree to any facts.  I wouldn't rev them up by saying, "Man, your boss is such a jerk."  You don't know the whole story.  But you sure can empathize with the feelings.  "That sounds rough."  "Wow, I'd feel awful if I had a day like that.  How can I support you?"  Learn how to engage without providing any steering energy at all.  They are driving completely.  It's amazing how well this works sometimes, especially for us problem solvers ;)

For Example 2, I'm thinking the place where things turned south is when you got drawn into a conversation that you didn't have the emotional energy for.  You didn't have the strength to validate her, she probably misread some of your signals and got scared, etc.  The skill to develop here is using what energy you have to try to defer the conversation until later in a way that doesn't make her scared.  It takes some practice.  Focus on you, not her or the relationship.  "Thanks so much for asking.  It makes me feel good that you care how I'm doing.  I guess therapy just wore me out today.  Maybe I should go for a walk to perk me up a bit and then maybe we could do _____ together."  That statement validates her, then gives a reason for your behavior that's truthful but only talks about you, then you take responsibility for your mood, identify something that you can do to improve it, and offer to reunite with her.  Might that approach be helpful?  B.t.w., I know it's easy to write this stuff in a post, but darned hard to get things to go smoothly in real life.  It takes practice and a willingness to keep at it.  If you get a portion of those things to happen the next time, even one of them, congratulate yourself, and look forward to doing even better the time after that.

RC
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Ozzie101
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« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2019, 07:46:37 AM »

Excerpt
But I've found it helpful sometimes to back up a step further and only empathize.  You don't have to agree to any facts.  I wouldn't rev them up by saying, "Man, your boss is such a jerk."  You don't know the whole story.  But you sure can empathize with the feelings.  "That sounds rough."  "Wow, I'd feel awful if I had a day like that.  How can I support you?"  Learn how to engage without providing any steering energy at all.  They are driving completely.  It's amazing how well this works sometimes, especially for us problem solvers ;)

RC, you put it better than I could. My H is going through a rough time at work, too. And I used to have connections to his place of employment, which adds a layer of complexity. I've found that just listening and letting him rant and not letting myself get triggered (I know and like some of these people he's railing about) is the best approach. I empathize with how he feels but never step in and fuel the fire. Usually he sort of runs himself out and then comes back around to a more rational perspective -- all without my help.
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eliason

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« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2019, 09:48:37 AM »

For Example 2, I'm thinking the place where things turned south is when you got drawn into a conversation that you didn't have the emotional energy for.  You didn't have the strength to validate her, she probably misread some of your signals and got scared, etc.  The skill to develop here is using what energy you have to try to defer the conversation until later in a way that doesn't make her scared.  It takes some practice.  Focus on you, not her or the relationship.  "Thanks so much for asking.  It makes me feel good that you care how I'm doing.  I guess therapy just wore me out today.  Maybe I should go for a walk to perk me up a bit and then maybe we could do _____ together."  That statement validates her, then gives a reason for your behavior that's truthful but only talks about you, then you take responsibility for your mood, identify something that you can do to improve it, and offer to reunite with her.

This is so helpful, thank you.
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2019, 10:48:00 PM »

This is so helpful, thank you.

I'm glad!  I only know because it seems like for every situation I read here, when I was in a similar place myself, I handled the wrong way first, sometimes second, third, fourth...  Frustrated/Unfortunate (click to insert in post)
Keep us posted!

RC
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« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2019, 10:14:01 PM »

Excerpt
I'm highly empathetic and have had trouble developing an independent sense of self, so I tend to give my emotional (and real) reality over to somebody else's perceptions.
...
So she has a terrible day, mostly because of her boss. I empathize and say how bad and unacceptable it is for her to be treated that way. I ask: is there anything you can do to stick up for yourself? Can you have a conversation with your manager or boss or say something about how you won't tolerate this behavior anymore? What do you have to lose by saying that? I also say I think it'll make her feel better to do that, to feel seen and heard even if nothing changes.
...
"you're trying to lecture me, you're trying to control me, and you're telling me that I'm doing the wrong thing and that I'm not good enough." She says "everyone at work tells me that I'm doing things wrong and I'm messing up, and then I come home and you tell me that I'm doing everything wrong and that I'm messing up." I wasn't trying to do that at all and I'm totally baffled about how she heard that -- I'm starting to get it and I accept it, but it's hard for me to understand.

ive been here ( bpdfamily) for almost nine years. ive responded to a lot of posts.

one of the things that has challenged me, in the best sense of the word, is listening to what people are really saying. hearing all of the pain, taking it in, but also sorting through it, to what, at the end of the day, they are really saying; what they want to be heard.

i think thats often the key to these relationships. our partners exaggerate the good and bad of everything. theyre notoriously not great at communicating their needs. i think you dont want to dismiss any part, but you want to listen, carefully, for whats at the heart of what they are saying.

it sounds (just from this one example) like your instinct was to offer a lot of advice about how she could improve her situation. she, effectively, shut it down.

i think, for a lot of us, thats our instinct. someone complains about something, we want to help them fix or solve it. its not necessarily our role.

it can mean a lot of things in our relationships. sometimes our advice is invalidating. sometimes, for us, its trying to fix something out of our hands. sometimes it just misses the mark and then we feel bad. often, the hardest part is just to really listen.

Excerpt
I wasn't trying to do that at all and I'm totally baffled about how she heard that -- I'm starting to get it and I accept it, but it's hard for me to understand. It feels like anything that doesn't reinforce her feeling and her triangulation (demonizing her boss, avoiding the situation is good and safe) makes her immediately stop trusting me, she thinks I'm abandoning her and criticising her and telling her she's wrong.

my suspicion is that she felt like you were telling her what to do; just like her boss.

when it comes to validation, and avoiding being invalidating, one of the most powerful tools is to just ask (unbiased) validating questions:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273415.0

what happened during the day? what made her feel invalidated and disrespected?

Excerpt
I come home from therapy the other day and my mood is kind of down -- I've been disappointed and frustrated with our relationship recently.

point blank: she can feel this, and i suspect this is her reacting to the distance she senses in you. people with bpd traits are hypervigilant when it comes to this sort of thing, and they will tend to respond to it with clinging, or withdrawing, or with attacking; whatever they know that works to get that emotional response.

Excerpt
She immediately gets "up" and says "I know what you do, you go to therapy and complain about me and analyze me and then you get your little phrases from your therapist and then you come home and do that and you like it." This has come up before: her telling me I'm analyzing her, manipulating her, that my therapist is manipulating her, that her therapist (when she was in therapy) was manipulating her to try to get her to break up with me. She gets aggressive, raises her voice and tone, and then shuts down completely and withdraws, makes it clear that she doesn't want to talk to me.

this is, at least in part, what this was about.

if you knew that your partner was seeing a therapist to discuss your relationship, or posting on a message board about it, youd feel a little self conscious and defensive, right? especially if you felt your partner being increasingly distant and disappointed. shed feel that far more.
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eliason

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« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2019, 12:46:44 PM »

one of the things that has challenged me, in the best sense of the word, is listening to what people are really saying. hearing all of the pain, taking it in, but also sorting through it, to what, at the end of the day, they are really saying; what they want to be heard.

i think thats often the key to these relationships. our partners exaggerate the good and bad of everything. theyre notoriously not great at communicating their needs. i think you dont want to dismiss any part, but you want to listen, carefully, for whats at the heart of what they are saying.

Yes! You said it better than I could, and I'm trying to develop this skill. So often I "meet her at the argument" rather than "meet her where it's coming from," and it's difficult to remind myself that there's a lot of pain, fragility, vulnerability, and low self-esteem behind these conversations. I'm trying to work on some mantras to help myself with that in moment.

point blank: she can feel this, and i suspect this is her reacting to the distance she senses in you. people with bpd traits are hypervigilant when it comes to this sort of thing, and they will tend to respond to it with clinging, or withdrawing, or with attacking; whatever they know that works to get that emotional response.

this is, at least in part, what this was about.

if you knew that your partner was seeing a therapist to discuss your relationship, or posting on a message board about it, youd feel a little self conscious and defensive, right? especially if you felt your partner being increasingly distant and disappointed. shed feel that far more.

Makes sense. Personally I'd be thrilled actually — when I have the energy I'm more than happy to take a deep honest look at myself and try to better my behavior. But yes when I'm exhausted or feeling low or down to begin with, I would definitely get defensive and self conscious and feel attacked.

I think I've done a lot of work on myself to not take things like this so personally — it's something I struggle with professionally and around my work, but interpersonally I think I've got decent mechanisms to keep a bit of perspective.

Thanks for your perspective and clarity. This stuff is really tough but it feels like practicing it will help me be a better person, so yeah I'm all in.
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Fond memories, fella.


« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2019, 02:38:25 PM »

Great to hear that you're so committed to working on things.  Have you had any recent successes "in the moment" where you were able to temper your reactions and things went better?

RC
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